Last night I was reading up some of the things that Heidi Cruz has been saying lately, and honestly I don't know what is scarier, Ted as POTUS or Heidi as FLOTUS. Suffice to say, her views on religion in America are at great odds with those of the founding fathers, as this editorial from 2015 explains...
Founding Fathers: We Are Not a Christian Nation
"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."
--John Adams
As we witness yet again the brutal and bloody consequences of religious intolerance in the form of ISIS, we have a majority of Republicans pining for a Christian America. Proponents of converting the United States into a theocracy do not see the terrible parallel between religious excess in the Middle East and here at home, but they would not because blindness to reason is the inevitable consequence of religious zealotry.
Conservatives who so proudly tout their fealty to the Constitution want to trash our founding document by violating the First Amendment in hopes of establishing Christianity as the nation's religion. This is precisely what the Constitution prohibits:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Back to the Beginning
How terribly ironic that the louder Christians protest against the excesses of Islam, the more they agitate for Christian excess. We really need to stop this ridiculous argument about being a Christian nation. If there should be any doubt, let us listen to the founding fathers themselves. This from Thomas Jefferson in an April 11, 1823, letter to John Adams:
The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. ... But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding....
These are not the words of a man who wishes to establish a Christian theocracy. Jefferson promoted tolerance above all and said earlier that his statute for religious freedom in Virginia was "meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammeden, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination." He specifically wished to avoid the dominance of a single religion.
Let us be perfectly clear: We are not now, nor have we ever been, a Christian nation. Our founding fathers explicitly and clearly excluded any reference to "God" or "the Almighty" or any euphemism for a higher power in the Constitution. Not one time is the word "god" mentioned in our founding document. Not one time.
The facts of our history are easy enough to verify. Anybody who ignorantly insists that our nation is founded on Christian ideals need only look at the four most important documents from our early history -- the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation, the Federalist Papers and the Constitution -- to disprove that ridiculous religious bias. All four documents unambiguously prove our secular origins.
Declaration of Independence (1776)
The most important assertion in this document is that "to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."
Note that the power of government is derived not from any god but from the people. No appeal is made in this document to a god for authority of any kind. In no case are any powers given to religion in the affairs of man.
Remember, too, that this document was not written to form or found a government but was stating intent in a way that was meant to appeal to an audience with European sensibilities. Only four times is there any reference at all to higher powers -- "Laws of Nature and of Nature's God," "Supreme Judge of the world," "their Creator," and "divine Providence" -- and in all four cases the references to a higher power appeal to the idea of inherent human dignity, never implying a role for a god in government.
Articles of Confederation (1777)
Throughout the entire document, in all 13 articles, the only reference to anything remotely relating to a god is a term used one time, "Great Governor of the World," and even then only in the context of general introduction, like "Ladies and gentlemen, members of the court...." Unlike the Declaration of Independence, this document did indeed seek to create a type of government in the form of a confederation of independent states. The authors gave no power or authority to religion. And this document is our first glimpse into the separation of church and state, because just as the Articles of Confederation give no authority to religion in civil matters, so too does the document deny any authority of government in matters of faith.
U.S. Constitution (1787)
This one is easy, because the Constitution of the United States of America makes zero reference to a god or Christianity.
The only reference to religion, found in Article VI, is a negative one: "[N]o religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." And of course we have the First Amendment, which states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."
Federalist Papers (1787-88)
While Thomas Jefferson was the genius behind the Declaration of Independence, John Jay, Alexander Hamilton and James Madison (publishing under the pseudonym "Publius") were the brains providing the intellectual foundation of our Constitution. And what brilliance they brought to the task. The first time I picked up the Federalist Papers, I intended to scan the book briefly and then move on to more interesting pursuits. But I could not put it down; the book reads like an intriguing mystery novel with an intricate plot and complex characters acting on every human emotion. There is no better way to get into the minds of our founding fathers and understand their original intent than by reading this collection of amazing essays.
As with the Constitution, at no time is a god ever mentioned in the Federalist Papers. At no time is Christianity every mentioned. Religion is only discussed in the context of keeping matters of faith separate from concerns of governance, and of keeping religion free from government interference.
The founding fathers could not be clearer on this point: God has no role in government; Christianity has no role in government. They make this point explicitly, repeatedly, in multiple founding documents. We are not a Christian nation.
"In God We Trust"
Our national obsession with God in politics is actually a recent phenomenon and would seem completely alien to any of our founders. "In God We Trust" was first placed on United States coins in 1861, during the Civil War. (More about that in a bit.) Teddy Roosevelt tried to remove the words from our money in 1907 but was shouted down. Only in 1956 was that expression adopted as the national motto by the 84th Congress. The clause "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance was inserted only in 1954, when President Eisenhower signed legislation to recognize "the dedication of our Nation and our people to the Almighty." But conservatives, ignorant of our history, or willfully ignoring it, wish us to believe that the pledge always referenced God. Here is Sarah Palin's take, defending the "under God" clause: "If the pledge was good enough for the founding fathers, its [sic] good enough for me and I'll fight in defense of our Pledge of Allegiance." One wonders if she thinks the founders were alive in 1954. I guess if Noah could live to be nearly 800 years old....
That we are a secular nation was obvious to past generations, so much so that in the mid-1800s several groups formed to rectify what they considered a mistake of our forefathers in founding our country on principles of reason rather than faith. Perhaps the most prominent was the National Reform Association, established in 1863 for the purpose of amending the preamble to the Constitution to acknowledge God and Jesus Christ as the sources of all government power, because the original document does not.
The National Reform Association believed that the Civil War was evidence that God was punishing the country for their failure to put God into the Constitution (nothing to do with slavery, of course). Also, note that this apparent knowledge of God's mind is reminiscent of Pat Robertson's claims about God's wrath in Haiti, Florida and anywhere else he believes the devil has taken hold. Anyway, in their 1864 convention the National Reform Association agreed on a preamble that would replace "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union..." with "Recognizing Almighty God as the source of all authority and power in civil government, and acknowledging the Lord Jesus Christ as the governor among the nations, his revealed will as the supreme law of the land, in order to constitute a Christian government...."
They presented their suggestion to President Lincoln, who avoided it like a dirty diaper. The Congress also dodged the idea but threw the group a bone by agreeing to put "In God We Trust" on our currency, in an act of pure political pandering. So "In God We Trust" was first placed on United States coins in 1861 during the Civil War. From the Treasury we also find out:
The use of IN GOD WE TRUST has not been uninterrupted. The motto disappeared from the five-cent coin in 1883, and did not reappear until production of the Jefferson nickel began in 1938. Since 1938, all United States coins bear the inscription. Later, the motto was found missing from the new design of the double-eagle gold coin and the eagle gold coin shortly after they appeared in 1907. In response to a general demand, Congress ordered it restored, and the Act of May 18, 1908, made it mandatory on all coins upon which it had previously appeared. IN GOD WE TRUST was not mandatory on the one-cent coin and five-cent coin. It could be placed on them by the Secretary or the Mint Director with the Secretary's approval.
The motto has been in continuous use on the one-cent coin since 1909, and on the ten-cent coin since 1916. It also has appeared on all gold coins and silver dollar coins, half-dollar coins, and quarter-dollar coins struck since July 1, 1908.
For much of our existence, the United States never included God in its motto, on its currency, or in any document creating the Republic. We were born a secular nation and must remain one to sustain our future, unless we want to go the way of ISIS.
Our founding fathers understood well the extraordinary danger of mixing religion and politics; we forget that lesson at our great peril. If we forget, just glance over to the Middle East. I tremble in fear for my country when the majority of conservatives believe we are a Christian nation; that frightening majority has forgotten our history, ignored our founding principles and abandoned our most cherished ideal of separating church and state. In mixing religion and politics, the religious right subverts both. And the world suffers.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeff-schweitzer/founding-fathers-we-are-n_b_6761840.html
[Edited on 2/12/2016 by gondicar]
Thanks for the post. Now, if only a candidate would say that loud and clear.....
Thanks for the post. Now, if only a candidate would say that loud and clear.....
That would be great but it won't happen as long as exploiting religion can be used to garner votes. We actually had a state representative introduce a bill to make Christianity the official religion of North Carolina. Fortunately the bill went nowhere, but a lot of people were supporting it.
“We Are Not a Christian Nation”
Yet by far, the majority of Americans are Christians.
“We Are Not a Christian Nation”
Yet by far, the majority of Americans are Christians.
As was was John Adams, to whom that quote is attributed. Do you have a point, besides telling us something we already know?
“We Are Not a Christian Nation”
Yet by far, the majority of Americans are Christians.
As was was John Adams, to whom that quote is attributed. Do you have a point, besides telling us something we already know?
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The point is that the editorial you posted was obviously written by a secular progressive and directed at the members of the "Church of I Hate You".
By far the majority of Americans disagree.
“We Are Not a Christian Nation”
Yet by far, the majority of Americans are Christians.
As was was John Adams, to whom that quote is attributed. Do you have a point, besides telling us something we already know?
_________________________________________________________________________
The point is that the editorial you posted was obviously written by a secular progressive and directed at the members of the "Church of I Hate You".
By far the majority of Americans disagree.
Disagree with what exactly?
“We Are Not a Christian Nation”
Yet by far, the majority of Americans are Christians.
As was was John Adams, to whom that quote is attributed. Do you have a point, besides telling us something we already know?
_________________________________________________________________________
The point is that the editorial you posted was obviously written by a secular progressive and directed at the members of the "Church of I Hate You".
Y'know, I live in Kansas, ergo I know a lot of guys like you.
"You ignorant, stupid, unpatriotic liberal pieces of ---- have no idea how much you are destroying this great country with your brainless and traitorous beliefs. You people make me sick. All you know how to do is hate and insult people."
No one ever sees the irony of all that, though. Oh well.
The fore-fathers intent, as evidenced in the careful wording in the documents, was to make sure that there was no one established religion while protecting the citizen’s right to worship in a manner of their choosing and that right cannot be regulated or controlled by government.
This is another reason why the phrase “In God We Trust” endures as it neither endorses nor promotes any one religion.
The fore-fathers were very sensitive to these issues as they had fled England and King George.
The fore-fathers intent, as evidenced in the careful wording in the documents, was to make sure that there was no one established religion while protecting the citizen’s right to worship in a manner of their choosing and that right cannot be regulated or controlled by government.
This is another reason why the phrase “In God We Trust” endures as it neither endorses nor promotes any one religion.
The fore-fathers were very sensitive to these issues as they had fled England and King George.
This my be the first coherent post I've ever seen from you. It was also the whole point of the article I posted so good to know that you actually do agree with it. 
However I'm still not sure what you meant by "By far the majority of Americans disagree", other than just being disagreeable.
Regarding "In God We Trust" there are lots of details about that phrase and its usage in the article, which states that this phrase didn't appear on US currency until nearly 90 years after the United States came to be, and wasn't adopted as a motto until the 1950s. Point being, it was not a phrase that was brought forward by the founding fathers, presumably because, as you correctly pointed out, they were sensitive to these issues. Unfortunately, that sensitivity has waned over the years and now we have Ted Cruz and those that identify with his ideology who are pretty much on the other side of the coin today.
The fore-fathers intent, as evidenced in the careful wording in the documents, was to make sure that there was no one established religion while protecting the citizen’s right to worship in a manner of their choosing and that right cannot be regulated or controlled by government.
Yes. Ergo, religion can't dictate government policy.
Interestingly, the younger population (under 40) increasingly doesn't identify themselves as having any religious affiliation. Hard-liners will eventually run out of supporters. http://www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/americas-changing-religious-landscape/
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the phrase - "We are not a Christian Nation" is the writer's and never is uttered by an actual founding father, at least not in this article.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the phrase - "We are not a Christian Nation" is the writer's and never is uttered by an actual founding father, at least not in this article.
I don't know if it has or not, but that's a fair call out in that it was not in the article except in the headline which is not attributed to any one. But as the article describes and countless other sources can corroborate, the founding fathers, many of whom were devout, did not intend this to be a "Christian nation" even though its citizens may predominately identify as Christian. The phrase "we are not a Christian nation" does seem to accurately paraphrase the John Adams quote at the top of the thread and the dozens of others that are easily found.
It does seem to have worked out well.
There is no government sanctioned or enforced religion but the people’s faith is well respected. There are of course the hate groups who attack anything that even resembles religion but while they get media attention they are far and few between.
I was born and raised Catholic but if I am driving down a street and pass a Catholic Church I might wave to the folks but as I proceed down the street and pass a Baptist church, a Jewish Synagogue or a Mosque I feel no compunction to pull out a weapon and loose a few rounds at “those people”.
I don’t care how they chose to believe or worship; it is their choice.
How do you think the Muslims feel when they see a sect claiming to represent their religion raping women and children and killing people who are not sworn to their version of Islam?
I have talked to many and while upset they also know they cannot do anything about it less they be killed as well.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the phrase - "We are not a Christian Nation" is the writer's and never is uttered by an actual founding father, at least not in this article.
I don't know if it has or not, but that's a fair call out in that it was not in the article except in the headline which is not attributed to any one. But as the article describes and countless other sources can corroborate, the founding fathers, many of whom were devout, did not intend this to be a "Christian nation" even though its citizens may predominately identify as Christian. The phrase "we are not a Christian nation" does seem to accurately paraphrase the John Adams quote at the top of the thread and the dozens of others that are easily found.
The point is the the US was founded as a democracy and not a theocracy. Ample writings of the founding fathers in their papers and letters definitely indicate they did not want any religion associated with the government.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the phrase - "We are not a Christian Nation" is the writer's and never is uttered by an actual founding father, at least not in this article.
I don't know if it has or not, but that's a fair call out in that it was not in the article except in the headline which is not attributed to any one. But as the article describes and countless other sources can corroborate, the founding fathers, many of whom were devout, did not intend this to be a "Christian nation" even though its citizens may predominately identify as Christian. The phrase "we are not a Christian nation" does seem to accurately paraphrase the John Adams quote at the top of the thread and the dozens of others that are easily found.
I think that the statement "we are not a Christian nation" is misleading. We are not an Islamic nation nor are we a Jewish nation or any other religious type of nation. We are a secular nation, not founded on the principles of any religion. Our laws may line up with some religious laws like laws against stealing, murder, rape etc. but those are just moral principles that we have in common. No one religion shapes our laws and principles. As for "in God we trust", most non Christian religions believe in a single deity.
I think that the statement "we are not a Christian nation" is misleading. We are not an Islamic nation nor are we a Jewish nation or any other religious type of nation. We are a secular nation, not founded on the principles of any religion. Our laws may line up with some religious laws like laws against stealing, murder, rape etc. but those are just moral principles that we have in common. No one religion shapes our laws and principles. As for "in God we trust", most non Christian religions believe in a single deity.
Exactly right, we are a secular nation. I don't know why we have the motto "In God we trust", but it doesn't seem to be offensive to anyone so no big deal. I suppose the Buddhists and atheists may not agree with the motto but so far I haven't heard of any major protests.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the phrase - "We are not a Christian Nation" is the writer's and never is uttered by an actual founding father, at least not in this article.
I don't know if it has or not, but that's a fair call out in that it was not in the article except in the headline which is not attributed to any one. But as the article describes and countless other sources can corroborate, the founding fathers, many of whom were devout, did not intend this to be a "Christian nation" even though its citizens may predominately identify as Christian. The phrase "we are not a Christian nation" does seem to accurately paraphrase the John Adams quote at the top of the thread and the dozens of others that are easily found.
I think that the statement "we are not a Christian nation" is misleading. We are not an Islamic nation nor are we a Jewish nation or any other religious type of nation. We are a secular nation, not founded on the principles of any religion. Our laws may line up with some religious laws like laws against stealing, murder, rape etc. but those are just moral principles that we have in common. No one religion shapes our laws and principles. As for "in God we trust", most non Christian religions believe in a single deity.
I understand your point, and agree that it is misleading on its own, i.e when taken out of context. However it does have context here, i.e. the writer was responding to an increase, whether perceived or real, in political rhetoric that is soaked in Christian fundamentalism. I also think he was referencing a point that mule made, i.e. that even though we are a nation that is predominately Christian in its demographics, we are, as you said and as the founding fathers clearly intended, a secular nation and not a Christian nation. That's the way I read it, anyway.
[Edited on 2/12/2016 by gondicar]
Speaking of Islam, this is where thing get dicey.
The 9/11 hijacker/murderers were radicalized in Mosques in the U.S. The principle one being in Falls Church, VA two blocks from where I went to high school. This is the same mosque where Maj. Hassan, the Ft. Hood killer was radicalized.
The FBI and the intelligence community know that Islamic Extremist Terrorists are being recruited by and radicalized by Imams in some Mosques. Common sense and due diligence requires that government agencies both monitor and spy on these places that do such things as their intent is to kill us.
Some on the left, lead by Comrade De Blasio have called for and forbidden the practice. For some reason they believe that rooting out Islamic Extremist Terrorists and protecting our nation from them should be curtailed in deference to “respecting” their religion.
This is where the “religion” and Government Issue become difficult to sort out.
Government agents in “houses of faith” are not what we the people are comfortable with but I am on the side of protecting the people, whatever it takes.
I think that the statement "we are not a Christian nation" is misleading. We are not an Islamic nation nor are we a Jewish nation or any other religious type of nation. We are a secular nation, not founded on the principles of any religion. Our laws may line up with some religious laws like laws against stealing, murder, rape etc. but those are just moral principles that we have in common. No one religion shapes our laws and principles. As for "in God we trust", most non Christian religions believe in a single deity.
Exactly right, we are a secular nation. I don't know why we have the motto "In God we trust", but it doesn't seem to be offensive to anyone so no big deal. I suppose the Buddhists and atheists may not agree with the motto but so far I haven't heard of any major protests.
It appears to come from the fourth stanza of The Star-Spangled Banner. It was challenged in appellate court in 1970, but the ruling stated that having it as the official national motto (it replaced the unofficial "E Pluribus Unum") does not mean that it is a governmental endorsement of any religion.
Unfortunately, that sensitivity has waned over the years and now we have Ted Cruz and those that identify with his ideology who are pretty much on the other side of the coin today.
It always baffles me how quickly candidates get in the bubble. Then again, it's still the primaries, so this topic probably polls well enough with the voting bloc he's after for his campaign to continue along this track.
Unfortunately, that sensitivity has waned over the years and now we have Ted Cruz and those that identify with his ideology who are pretty much on the other side of the coin today.
It always baffles me how quickly candidates get in the bubble. Then again, it's still the primaries, so this topic probably polls well enough with the voting bloc he's after for his campaign to continue along this track.
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Stump speeches are tailored to the audience.
Then there really are some candidates that really are faithful folk.
That has worked out well for many.
“We Are Not a Christian Nation”
Yet by far, the majority of Americans are Christians.
I think you mean Catholics, there are differences between actual Christians (people who believe in what Jesus brought prior to the 4th century when religion was changed by Constantine and the other rulers of the time). The original religion of this planet was what was given to Abraham, then it was diverted into Judaism, Christianity, Catholocism and everything else.
It is interesting to note that in the Bible the angel that came to Mary to tell her that she was favored and would be with child was Gabriel, who is the same one who gave knowledge to Muhammad, the prophet of Islam.
The point is, originally and still today, there is ONE God for all peoples, his laws were given to each group, and to him ALL will return to face their final judgement. Countries will set up their structures, governance, and he will wipe them all out unless they are adhering to HIS laws.
[Edited on 2/13/2016 by gina]
The original religion of this planet was what was given to Abraham
Wrong. The Abrahamic cult is a modern newcomer, about 2000 BC. there is evidence of religious activity as far back as 200,000 years ago, in the form of organized burial. Gobekli Tepe, clearly a site of organized religion, may be much older than the conservative estimates of as far back as 8000 years ago.
The Abrahamic religions are far from any "original word" , they are contemporary versions of traditions dating much further back. Abraham is just a pup when you take into account the entire span of human spiritual experience.
“We Are Not a Christian Nation”
Yet by far, the majority of Americans are Christians.
I think you mean Catholics, there are differences between actual Christians (people who believe in what Jesus brought prior to the 4th century when religion was changed by Constantine and the other rulers of the time). The original religion of this planet was what was given to Abraham, then it was diverted into Judaism, Christianity, Catholocism and everything else.
It is interesting to note that in the Bible the angel that came to Mary to tell her that she was favored and would be with child was Gabriel, who is the same one who gave knowledge to Muhammad, the prophet of Islam.
The point is, originally and still today, there is ONE God for all peoples, his laws were given to each group, and to him ALL will return to face their final judgement. Countries will set up their structures, governance, and he will wipe them all out unless they are adhering to HIS laws.
[Edited on 2/13/2016 by gina]
If that's the way you feel, then it sounds to me like you should move to a country that has laws fitting your beliefs. The USA has the Constitution that prevents your vision from becoming reality. If you stay here you will surely be wiped out by God.
