The Times said hospitals are to begin reporting the data to HHS on Wednesday, noting also that the "database that will receive new information is not open to the public, which could affect the work of scores of researchers, modelers and health officials who rely on C.D.C. data to make projections and crucial decisions."
Not only is Trump ignoring and running from the truth, he is now hiding it.
this is criminal
he continues to put lives of Americans at risk
Wondering if the curves we've been seeing will significantly improve in no time at all? Won't be long before the stats will rival that of Europe. It's all in the way stats are reported; not necessairly the truth.
Just like Trump knows more than the generals - now he knows more than the epdemiologists. We are so lucky to have such a leader with varied skills and integrity.
[Edited on 7/15/2020 by MartinD28]
Not only is Trump ignoring and running from the truth, he is now hiding it.
this is criminal
he continues to put lives of Americans at risk
He's dangerous.
As I said yesterday in the Dr. Fauci thread, not only did Trump just abandoned Americans to Covid, the president of the US is undermining the credibility of the top medical expert on this topic, withdrawn from WHO w/whom we were sharing global information about vaccines, treatments, etc., disparaged the CDC for having guidelines for school openings that include basic activities some cities simply can't do - like no running water for hand washing, no regular cleanings much less disinfectings, & no air filtration or even windows that open for fresh circulation. Now, he's diverting critical hospital data from the organization that is most capable of collecting & analyzing it to a new, untested dept of the HHS where it can be manipulated - or worse - by people who know nothing about medicine, epidemiology, or even data management for his political purposes.
HE HAS AT LEAST 7 MORE MONTHS IN OFFICE. Since March, cases have risen to 1mm in just 28 days for a total of 3mm.
THIS IS FAR MORE FRIGHTENING than anything Nixon or any other president has done. All to soothe his ego that Fauci gets better press.
If only his cabinet had the guts to invoke the 25th amendment.
Everything that comes out of Trump's mouth is a lie.
He wants to manipulate the data, pure and simple.
It's time people do the right thing and ignore the orange idiot; DO NOT send the data to the WH, keep sending it to the CDC.
It's time people do the right thing and ignore the orange idiot; DO NOT send the data to the WH, keep sending it to the CDC.
Except vindictive person that he is, Trump would cut off medicaid/medicare payments to those hospitals.
He's threatening to withhold money from schools who need to make capital improvements before opening & will miss his re-open deadline. If he doesn't care about the health of children & their faculty, why would he care about patients & their treatment providers?
The best the hospitals can do is send data to both.
Classic nazi info blackout.
True. And we're going to "hope" he's voted out 5 months from now w/a replacement taking over in 7 months?
Classic nazi info blackout.
True. And we're going to "hope" he's voted out 5 months from now w/a replacement taking over in 7 months?
Then we can begin to have a team working on a national plan as opposed to the patchwork, push down to states & localities, daily briefings that became campaign events for Trump, and one big cluster "f". We will have lost about a year. Think - if a real management srategy and one that depended upon science and the truth as opposed to lies and part of a reelection campaign, then we could have prevented large numbers of deaths, been better off economically, and been much further down the road than the coverup of the adminsitration & the failed half ass effort.
[Edited on 7/15/2020 by MartinD28]
Then we can begin to have a team working on a national plan as opposed to the patchwork, push down to states & locatilities, daily briefings that became campaign events for Trump, and one big cluster "f". We will have lost about a year. Think - if a real management srategy and one that depended upon science and the truth as opposed to lies and part of a reelection campaign, then we could have prevented large numbers of deaths, been better off economically, and been much further down the road than the coverup of the adminsitration & the failed half ass effort.
This was always the problem with leaving it up to local municipalities - just because the virus isn't a problem in a county one week doesn't mean it won't be next week. We've seen FL and NY teeter totter. We saw South Dakota do nothing and get hit. We are seeing Arizona getting hit. All it takes is one hot spot remaining for it to fester and spread again, COVID doesn't respect borders. Municipalities are left to figure this all out on their own with Federal leadership washing their hands of the issue or misinforming the public while promoting canned beans.
Then we can begin to have a team working on a national plan as opposed to the patchwork, push down to states & locatilities, daily briefings that became campaign events for Trump, and one big cluster "f". We will have lost about a year. Think - if a real management srategy and one that depended upon science and the truth as opposed to lies and part of a reelection campaign, then we could have prevented large numbers of deaths, been better off economically, and been much further down the road than the coverup of the adminsitration & the failed half ass effort.
This was always the problem with leaving it up to local municipalities - just because the virus isn't a problem in a county one week doesn't mean it won't be next week. We've seen FL and NY teeter totter. We saw South Dakota do nothing and get hit. We are seeing Arizona getting hit. All it takes is one hot spot remaining for it to fester and spread again, COVID doesn't respect borders. Municipalities are left to figure this all out on their own with Federal leadership washing their hands of the issue or misinforming the public while promoting canned beans.
All true, but I don't think we can wait 7 months to start correcting this.
If Trump manipulates the #s, we won't know WHAT is happening or WHERE. How on earth is there supposed to be any idea of how we're faring & what's safe? He'll say the virus "just disappeared" as he predicted & the massaged numbers will demonstrate that. Never mind that hospitals in FL & TX are already out of ICU beds.
I hope the hospitals are smart enough to send data to both places w/o Trump's knowledge or at least to a state repository that doesn't answer to Trump.
Then we can begin to have a team working on a national plan as opposed to the patchwork, push down to states & locatilities, daily briefings that became campaign events for Trump, and one big cluster "f". We will have lost about a year. Think - if a real management srategy and one that depended upon science and the truth as opposed to lies and part of a reelection campaign, then we could have prevented large numbers of deaths, been better off economically, and been much further down the road than the coverup of the adminsitration & the failed half ass effort.
This was always the problem with leaving it up to local municipalities - just because the virus isn't a problem in a county one week doesn't mean it won't be next week. We've seen FL and NY teeter totter. We saw South Dakota do nothing and get hit. We are seeing Arizona getting hit. All it takes is one hot spot remaining for it to fester and spread again, COVID doesn't respect borders. Municipalities are left to figure this all out on their own with Federal leadership washing their hands of the issue or misinforming the public while promoting canned beans.
All true, but I don't think we can wait 7 months to start correcting this.
If Trump manipulates the #s, we won't know WHAT is happening or WHERE. How on earth is there supposed to be any idea of how we're faring & what's safe? He'll say the virus "just disappeared" as he predicted & the massaged numbers will demonstrate that. Never mind that hospitals in FL & TX are already out of ICU beds.
I hope the hospitals are smart enough to send data to both places w/o Trump's knowledge or at least to a state repository that doesn't answer to Trump.
I think it's a given that Trump plans to manipulate the data to give him better chances of being reelected. Isn't this what his view of Covid is? Isn't Covid a necessary evil like Dr. Fauci - both getting in the way of reelection. I'm not sure what we can do other than try to listen to the experts that still can speak and are not part of the Trump Admin. From a PR standpoint, Trump can stifle truth, but hospitals filling up, families impacted directly, etc. will only take Trump but so far. Let's see how our numbers "appear" and what charts & graphs look like in a month or so. If you are seeing rapid improvement, there is your answer. It will be a cause & effect of lies and distortion. We may have little choice than to ride out Trump and his dictatorship.
[Edited on 7/15/2020 by MartinD28]
All true, but I don't think we can wait 7 months to start correcting this.
If Trump manipulates the #s, we won't know WHAT is happening or WHERE. How on earth is there supposed to be any idea of how we're faring & what's safe? He'll say the virus "just disappeared" as he predicted & the massaged numbers will demonstrate that. Never mind that hospitals in FL & TX are already out of ICU beds.
I hope the hospitals are smart enough to send data to both places w/o Trump's knowledge or at least to a state repository that doesn't answer to Trump.
For sure. Trump is incapable and uninterested in correcting this. He's clearly hoping it just goes away. It took 8 years to get out of the 2008 financial crash, I think this will take even longer. At least we had the CDC independent of the White House, we're all concerned about information getting filtered.
I have a friend whose office HR Coordinator is supremely incompetent (she has admitted she doesn't know and doesn't need to know what the company does), but keeps her job because she has her own hiring/retention etc stats for her department. Once in a while another office will uncover her cooked stats, but it's extra work and often after the fact, so the HR VP remains, continuously justifying her existence with lies and costing the company money. It's not good.
Not only will it be years before the economy recovers, but brace yourself for a very big stock market correction. The Federal Reserve has basically artificially propped up the market for a lengthy amount of time now but it can’t do it forever.
Meanwhile corporate debt is skyrocketing and the big banks are betting big time on this debt via collateralized bundled debt similar to the bundled mortgage debt in 2007 and 2008 which caused the Great Recession. It will eventually implode and tax payer Joe will get the bill once again.
$1.5 Trillion and counting student debt....42 million people out of work and states shutting down again, consumer debt rising and spending going down, states are broke and McConnell plays politics.....It isn’t looking good boys and girls. 🙁
I think it's a given that Trump plans to manipulate the data to give him better chances of being reelected. Let's see how our numbers "appear" and what charts & graphs look like in a month or so. If you are seeing rapid improvement, there is your answer. It will be a cause & effect of lies and distortion. We may have little choice than to ride out Trump and his dictatorship.
As always, you're far more optimistic than I am. Everything that's planned by states - phased re-openings, especially - are based on what the #s look like. So, if what they're looking at is false, they will (unless they have an independent source) base their plans on those numbers, re-open, stay re-opened, & that's The End. The Office of Management & Budget I would assume could ask for numbers & state AGs could ask for an injunction w/SCOTUS to prevent this.
Worst part: Birx is in on this. She either intentionally or not, thought the #s should be reported a different way (e.g., a bi-furcated cause of death code is confusing) & discussed it w/Trump. Instead of asking the CDC to revise their method, Trump demanded they be sent to him (thru his cabinet).
trump does not care about the lives of Americans, just holding on to power.
And golfing. Don't forget golfing.
At one of his private clubs, no less.
Meanwhile corporate debt is skyrocketing and the big banks are betting big time on this debt via collateralized bundled debt similar to the bundled mortgage debt in 2007 and 2008 which caused the Great Recession. It will eventually implode and tax payer Joe will get the bill once again. It isn’t looking good boys and girls. 🙁
That bundled mortgage debt isn't going away. With employers walking on their leases, the owners & mortgage holders lose their income stream. Manhattan's 3 largest tenants have given notice of returning space & paying the cancellation fee. Think of all those shopping centers w/empty bars, restaurants, salons, movie theatres, etc. that couldn't hold out or succeed on 50% capacity. Then think residential - empty apartments & foreclosed homes when people lose jobs. And, of course, hotels...
I think it's a given that Trump plans to manipulate the data to give him better chances of being reelected. Let's see how our numbers "appear" and what charts & graphs look like in a month or so. If you are seeing rapid improvement, there is your answer. It will be a cause & effect of lies and distortion. We may have little choice than to ride out Trump and his dictatorship.
As always, you're far more optimistic than I am. Everything that's planned by states - phased re-openings, especially - are based on what the #s look like. So, if what they're looking at is false, they will (unless they have an independent source) base their plans on those numbers, re-open, stay re-opened, & that's The End. The Office of Management & Budget I would assume could ask for numbers & state AGs could ask for an injunction w/SCOTUS to prevent this.
Worst part: Birx is in on this. She either intentionally or not, thought the #s should be reported a different way (e.g., a bi-furcated cause of death code is confusing) & discussed it w/Trump. Instead of asking the CDC to revise their method, Trump demanded they be sent to him (thru his cabinet).
I am optimistic & have been since the 2018 midterms. I just don't think with 4 months to go that Trump's corruption of numbers will be enough to save him. I truly believe he was toast before Covid & the aftermath of George Floyd et al. With Covid, Floyd, et al he is in a bigger whole than back in January. You reap what you sow applies even to presidents. What Trump has sown is poison, and in the end, he will suffer for his lies, incompetence, and corruption. I hope he takes the GOP Senate down with him. They all deserve each other. President George Wallace Trump is more interested in preserving white dominance / heritage / culture & confederate statues & base names than protecting this country from a horrible pandemic.
I agree with you on Dr. Birx. At first I was impressed with her, but over time it has become evident that she is willing to go along with Trump. Where is her sense of self respect and looking out for the "people"? Just being there does not cut it. If I was Biden, I'd retain Dr. Fauci but show her the door.
Meanwhile corporate debt is skyrocketing and the big banks are betting big time on this debt via collateralized bundled debt similar to the bundled mortgage debt in 2007 and 2008 which caused the Great Recession. It will eventually implode and tax payer Joe will get the bill once again. It isn’t looking good boys and girls. 🙁
That bundled mortgage debt isn't going away. With employers walking on their leases, the owners & mortgage holders lose their income stream. Manhattan's 3 largest tenants have given notice of returning space & paying the cancellation fee. Think of all those shopping centers w/empty bars, restaurants, salons, movie theatres, etc. that couldn't hold out or succeed on 50% capacity. Then think residential - empty apartments & foreclosed homes when people lose jobs. And, of course, hotels...
True...But now we have yet another bundled collateralized debt instrument which could crater the entire banking system, the corporations themselves, and thus the economy as a whole...And we all know socialism will ride in to save capitalism yet again. All so we can reset things once again so the rich can keep on getting richer....In the end even more wealth will be concentrated at the top.
I think most counties, at least in California, publish Covid data on their websites. I would hope that governors continue to collect real data within their states to report and make decisions with.
The Times said hospitals are to begin reporting the data to HHS on Wednesday, noting also that the "database that will receive new information is not open to the public, which could affect the work of scores of researchers, modelers and health officials who rely on C.D.C. data to make projections and crucial decisions."
Not only is Trump ignoring and running from the truth, he is now hiding it.
this is criminal
he continues to put lives of Americans at risk
If there is going to be a coverup yes it would be criminal but there are some things going on with the testing labs. You know those huge numbers from Florida? It has come out 333 testing labs showed only 100% positive tests no negatives! That is not possible.
What if this anomaly is not just happening only in Florida?
What are the real numbers? Each state has to do their due diligence and verify the results they are getting. NY was blessed with Wadsworth doing our tests early on, and I KNOW their results are valid. Other states may not have the best labs or testing materials. This is a new disease.
[Edited on 7/15/2020 by gina]
[Edited on 7/15/2020 by gina]
I think most counties, at least in California, publish Covid data on their websites. I would hope that governors continue to collect real data within their states to report and make decisions with.
Yes, but that's the same data sent to the CDC. Not all states require it & some states require it but don't publish all of it. Still, every hospital does a daily census of its patients so the real numbers are at least in the hospital databases.
The big question is researchers. The Johns Hopkins Covid19 Initiative (the one that creates the maps that used to be shown by the Covid Task Force) collects data from 5 different sources & uses State Dept. criteria for classification. They'll probably remain the most accurate source since the government has no involvement in that. Other researchers both inside & outside the fed government have relied on CDC data.
It's mind-boggling that Trump is so vindictive & desperate that he would actually tamper w/#s used by states to make decisions. He'll eventually be found out if the #s don't match, but in the meantime, the phasing system used by states may be using false data after today & putting us at risk.
www.snopes.com/fact-check/cdc-covid-19-data/
As many of the posters here refer to Snopes, I thought I would check what they had to say about the decision.
Seems the covid data was having to be reported to several different agencies.
" Without naming the CDC or other agencies specifically, , the memo acknowledged that "many separate government entities" were also asking for the same information and suggested that the variety of the requests posed challenges for the hospitals."
Basically, the information is sent to TeleTracking, and Teletracking handles the requests for information, not the hospitals.
Here is the original memo sent out with the updates.
IF you decide to read the memo, it says you should not report data to NHSN, but nowhere does it say you cannot report the data to NHSN.
Also, regarding the "we didn't know until 48 hour ago" statements, the memo first went out on March 29.
this is as of yesterday
they have removed some data that was formerly available for the public
[Edited on 7/16/2020 by stormyrider]
they have removed some data that was formerly available for the public
That's exactly what Putin would do. Of course, Putin wouldn't have been foolish enough to let the peasants see any unflattering info.
this is as of yesterday
they have removed some data that was formerly available for the public
[Edited on 7/16/2020 by stormyrider]
Would the data be relevant to what the average Joe six pack would need to know, or was it of the more technical data (Brent Spiner not included), that would be helpful to the researchers?
Actually I'm asking what data is not made available to the public?
any data the administration doesn't want the public to see will not be available.
coming from a President who has said, we should stop testing so there wouldn't be new cases (paraphrase), this is very concerning.
among the data that has been already removed is PPE availability. As a physician who cares for these people, and has lived through inadequate PPE a few months ago, the concept of a PPE shortage is scary. We need to know.
among the data that has been already removed is PPE availability. As a physician who cares for these people, and has lived through inadequate PPE a few months ago, the concept of a PPE shortage is scary. We need to know.
Yet, I've not read one article where any prominent physician, medical organization, hospital administrators or suppliers, or researchers have criticized this action. I would think that physicians would demand specific info through a FOIA claim.
Is there another source - say from the state public health dept - that would have #s not normally sent to the CDC? Trump can't prevent them from publishing them.
Update
the complaint you asked about..
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/14/health/hospital-covid-19-data-letter/index.html
Health advisers to the government say hospitals are 'scrambling' after Trump administration's 'abrupt' change to Covid-19 data reporting requirements
CNN)In a letter, public health advisers to the US government said they are "extremely concerned" and "troubled" by the Trump administration's decision to change how hospitals report Covid-19 data.
The letter, dated July 31, described hospitals as "scrambling" to determine how to meet new daily Covid-19 reporting requirements to the US Department of Health and Human Services, and said retiring the older system jeopardized data integrity. One doctor who signed the letter said the new data system was marred by inconsistencies, rendering it "almost impossible" to use for real-time decisions during the pandemic.
"Moving forward," the letter says, "it will be even more challenging to perform meaningful inter-state comparisons, and to understand which COVID-19 mitigation strategies were successul (or failed)."
Coronavirus hospital data will now be sent to Trump administration instead of CDC
Coronavirus hospital data will now be sent to Trump administration instead of CDC
The nearly three dozen current and former members of the Healthcare Infection Control Practices Advisory Committee shared their concerns in a letter intended for HHS and obtained by CNN. The committee is an independent group of experts that provides guidance to the HHS and the US Centers of Disease Control and Prevention on infection control practices and strategies.
When asked by CNN, HHS did not confirm if it had received the letter. Members of the committee said that the CDC, which is part of HHS, was informed of the letter.
In a memo on the HHS website last month, the Trump administration ordered hospitals to report all Covid-19 patient information to HHS, rather than to the CDC and HHS, as they had been doing.The Trump administration said the change would streamline the data collection process, but it swiftly drew criticism from public health officials.
Former CDC Acting Director Dr. Richard Besser said at the time that rerouting hospital data was a "step backwards" for the country's coronavirus response.
"It's another example of CDC being sidelined. Not only should the data be coming to CDC, but CDC should be talking to the public through the media every day," Besser told CNN.
This recent letter shared similar concerns.
"We are extremely concerned about this abrupt change in Covid-19 reporting," the letter said. Retiring the CDC system that was in operation would have "serious consequences on data integrity."
Covid data from hospitals is now going to Washington instead of the CDC. An epidemiologist explains why that's a problem
Covid data from hospitals is now going to Washington instead of the CDC. An epidemiologist explains why that's a problem
By removing the data collection from the CDC, the country would lose decades of expertise in interpreting and analyzing information about infectious disease and it would jeopardize the department's goals of developing interventions that would improve public health, the letter said.
The letter said the system that had been tracking the information, housed in the CDC's Division of Healthcare Quality Promotion, is not merely a software system. It is a complex patient safety and quality improvement system that is maintained by an experienced team of doctors, epidemiologists and infection prevention and control professionals.
The system, which was started in 1970 to track health care-associated infections, is the country's most widely used system on the subject, according to the group. It also tracks flu vaccination rates, blood safety errors and more.
Hospitals have extensive experience sending crucial data to this system and trust that it appropriately tracks and analyzes the data, the letter said.
Since hospitals now have to change the way they report the data, they have had to rely on local public health experts or hospital associations to change reporting and management of data. Making the shift during a pandemic puts this important data at risk, the letter writers argue.
Nurse who spent 117 days in the hospital with Covid-19 says 'it feels great to be alive'
Nurse who spent 117 days in the hospital with Covid-19 says 'it feels great to be alive'
"As past and present HICPAC members, we are troubled by the Administration's unexpected decision to divert Covid-19 data reporting from CDC to DHHS," the letter said. "We strongly advise that the CDC's DHQP data experts be allowed to continue their important and trusted work in their mission to save lives and protect Americans from health threats."
Dr. Vineet Chopra, chief of the division of hospital medicine at the University of Michigan, signed the letter and said the CDC's National Healthcare Safety Network data is essential to the work hospitals do.
During the pandemic, the University of Michigan accepted the most inter-hospital transfers of patients compared to any other hospital in the state, Chopra said; the NHSN data served as an important warning system that helped the hospital understand how the pandemic was unfolding in real time.
"We knew how to input data, how to extract data, and we know how to access it for prediction purposes," Chopra said in an email. "In contrast, the new data system has many inconsistencies," including with cases reported, bed occupancy numbers and that data itself is often out of date.
Over 900 health care workers have died from coronavirus. A new database tells their stories
Over 900 health care workers have died from coronavirus. A new database tells their stories
Many hospitals, he said, have struggled to understand how to us the new system and aren't entering data consistently.
"In other words, the new system has made intelligent calculations to inform real time decisions almost impossible," Chopra wrote.
Chopra said the committee and many of his colleagues felt pushed to write the letter.
"I think the core problem that bothers many of us is it's unclear why this change was made," Chopra wrote. "The system as we knew it worked very well and did inform us in the height of the pandemic. We see no real reason to change it and certainly no good appears to have come from it."
In a statement to CNN, an HHS official said the CDC system "was unable to keep up" with the demands of the pandemic.
Get CNN Health's weekly newsletter
Sign up here to get The Results Are In with Dr. Sanjay Gupta every Tuesday from the CNN Health team."Today, CDC has access to all the data it once had and more. The CDC's NHSN was unable to keep up with the fast-paced data collection demands of the COVID-19 pandemic," Michael Caputo, HHS assistant secretary for public affairs, said in an email. "Using this new, innovative and flexible collection mechanism, we have far more COVID-related real data, far faster, giving us increased capacity for life-saving projects like therapeutics distribution. And we are now poised to move to automated data collection for the use of every relevant expert at HHS, particularly the CDC."
