The U.S flag was associated with slavery long before the civil war ever happened, not to mention associated with racism long afterwards. But we sure can't have a little reality interfere with something for Americans to over react about.
How so?
The U.S flag was associated with slavery long before the civil war ever happened, not to mention associated with racism long afterwards. But we sure can't have a little reality interfere with something for Americans to over react about.
How so?
Slavery existed under some version the red, white and blue banner (minus a couple of stars for states that didn't exist at the time) called the American flag. Some of our founding fathers (especially Washington and Jefferson) had slaves. Thomas Jefferson apparently even took sexual liberties with at least one of his.
Just sayin', so don't flame me too badly.
Edited: our flag has undergone mutations, transformations and modifications throughout history. There was a 34 star version at the outset of the Civil War (1861). History scholars - if I'm wrong, I apologize in advance.
[Edited on 7/7/2015 by Rusty]
This whole thing has been the best swerve from the public topic of gun control we've seen yet.
True that!
It hasn't flown over the state house in years. The Confederate flag was first placed atop the Statehouse dome in 1962 during the centennial observances of the Civil War. It stayed up as a gesture of defiance to the civil rights movement. It was removed from the top of the capital dome in 2000 and since then has flown as part of separate memorial on the state house grounds.
My point is that it was a "gesture of defiance to the civil rights movement." It was not put atop the State House as a symbol of Southern Pride. It is not flown to honor the dead. As you stated Drumz... it was used to defy equality. And continues to be used as part of the Republican "Southern Strategy."
Let's look at what Lee Atwater had to say on the matter:
In 1988, Lee Atwater, the tactician of racial politics in a very different Republican Party, gave me a tour of the State House at Columbia, South Carolina. I was there as a reporter for the Washington Post. Standing in the rotunda under the dome he showed off the monumental statute of John C. Calhoun, godfather of secession, and then pointed out the window to the Confederate flag. It had been flying there since 1962, an emblem of resistance to the civil rights movement.
“You start out in 1954 by saying, ‘N*r, n*r, n****r,’” Atwater had explained to the political scientist Alexanders Lamis back in 1981. “By 1968 you can’t say ‘nigger’—that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff, and you’re getting so abstract. Now, you’re talking about cutting taxes …”
Atwater wrote some words in my notebook—“establishment” and “populism”—and explained how he used a racially coded “populism” against the “establishment” of liberal government. This was “populism” as old as Ben Tillman’s Red Shirts militia that violently overthrew Reconstruction and imposed Jim Crow. (A large statue of the racist crusader Tillman, who became governor and senator, is planted in front of the State House.)
“I know how to play it,” he told me, twanging on an air guitar. Soon, he would help win the presidency for George H.W. Bush, turning Willie Horton, a black rapist, into Democratic candidate Michael Dukakis’ “running mate,” as he put it. In 2000, George W. Bush won the decisive South Carolina primary over John McCain partly by defending the flying of the Confederate flag on the grounds of states’ rights.
blackoak, Since you seem so hung up on the Democrat vs Republican thing, you might be interested to know that the first South Carolina governor to try to get the flag down from the Capitol was Gov. Beasely, a Republican. In 1996. He got hammered for it. Just because someone is a Republican doesn't mean they are brain dead like you.
I guess this is to me.
Thanks, I wasn't aware of that.
Guess it comes from being brain dead and all.
Well, I hang out in the Whipping Post, so that qualifies me as being able to ID the brain dead. Takes em to know em! 
The U.S flag was associated with slavery long before the civil war ever happened, not to mention associated with racism long afterwards. But we sure can't have a little reality interfere with something for Americans to over react about.
Well, the US flag that existed at the time of the civil war is not the same flag that we use today. We have added some stars since then.
no $hit, what a stupid basis for debate. The flag (regardless of the number of stars) represented our nation, which until the end of the civil war was a slave nation. Using your logic, the rebel flag of today isn't the same as the one at the time of the civil war due to the fact the Confederate States of America no longer exist.
isn't the spirit with which the flag is flown what matters?
We have established that the flying of the Confederate Battle flag in South Carolina was a racist response to the Civil Rights Act.
For that reason alone I think the flag should come down. South Carolina realizes that the continuation of that symbol is going to have dire economic consequences. The flag is going to come down.
In a couple of weeks the debate will return to the Washington Redskins.
In a month or so there will be another mass shooting and the press will once again find away to deflect from our Nations problem with gun violence.
And I suppose, once the Washington Redskins name changes racism will be over.
By the way... how many Black churches have been burned in the last couple of weeks?
The U.S flag was associated with slavery long before the civil war ever happened, not to mention associated with racism long afterwards. But we sure can't have a little reality interfere with something for Americans to over react about.
Well, the US flag that existed at the time of the civil war is not the same flag that we use today. We have added some stars since then.
no $hit, what a stupid basis for debate. The flag (regardless of the number of stars) represented our nation, which until the end of the civil war was a slave nation. Using your logic, the rebel flag of today isn't the same as the one at the time of the civil war due to the fact the Confederate States of America no longer exist.
Exactly. The Confederate States of America no longer exists! So why show loyalty to it? Are you loyal to America or is your loyalty to a country that no longer exists?
As I've stated before, I don't think the Confederate flag should fly over government buildings (except maybe museums, battlefield and Confederate cemeteries), but I don't think it should be banned either. If somebody wants to fly the Confederate flag to celebrate their heritage, I have no problem with that. But it seems like a lot of the same people who fly a Confederate flag celebrate their heritage are the same types of people who complain when a Mexican person flies a Mexican flag to celebrate their heritage. Either it's ok to celebrate your heritage by flying a non USA flag or you should give all that up and only celebrate theAmerican flag. There is no having it both ways without being a bigot.
how many Black churches have been burned in the last couple of weeks?
Seven. Three possible arsons, 1 electrical wiring, 1 possible lightning, and two unknown.
how many Black churches have been burned in the last couple of weeks?
Seven. Three possible arsons, 1 electrical wiring, 1 possible lightning, and two unknown.
For those who keep saying the snopes has a liberal bias, I think this is a reasonable look at the situation:
http://m.snopes.com/2015/07/06/black-churches-burning/
After the Southern flag is disposed of, banned and gotten rid of. the USA flag stands to be redesigned for the new world. Some have said they will get rid of the 13 stars that represented the original colonies, and put them in a circle, meaning global, one nation and later on that will be expanded to one world (as in one world order, as in new world order). It is a progression. Tearing down traditions before creating new ones. The Southern flag has it's place in the history of America, it is true it represented the beliefs of the people in the south, who did have slaves, but it was not just about slavery.
I don't know how slaves became slaves, I don't know about these kidnappings people are referring to. I thought they were poor, uneducated and rounded up on that basis. It seems to me if big boats just went to Africa to round up villagers, there would be more villagers than people trying to round them up, could they not have put up an uprising? Was martial law in place that they could not escape? Rural tribal peoples survived in their villages, they hunted, which means they had tools to kill animals with, could they not have used them on those who came to snatch them?
Look at Palestine, the people have no weapons, but they use whatever they can find around, bricks, rubble, household implements to make bombs with, they don't go down without a fight, so how is it that millions of blacks became slaves? Can someone explain this?
You don't know how Africans became slaves? really? with all the useless research you do trying to prove the Illuminati is taking over the world and you don't have time to google and learn about one of the biggest tragedy's in human history?
So what is your point that the African's wanted to be slaves and liked it because life was better as a slave? Do you think the Jews wanted to be rounded up and sent to the death camps by the Nazi's? or was that just made up by the allies and Jews? Are you a holocaust denier as well?
Go spend some of your internet surfing time educating yourself about slavery before you come here and make a fool out of yourself claiming the slaves were well treated and had it good being slaves.
[Edited on 7/3/2015 by Bill_Graham]
I asked a simple question. How did all those Africans become slaves in the first place. Nobody could answer it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery
Slavery can be traced back to the earliest records, such as the Code of Hammurabi (c. 1760 BC), which refers to it as an established institution.[5] Slavery is rare among hunter-gatherer populations, as it is developed as a system of social stratification.
Slavery was known in civilizations as old as Sumer, as well as almost every other ancient civilization. The Byzantine-Ottoman wars and the Ottoman wars in Europe resulted in the taking of large numbers of Christian slaves. Similarly, Christians sold Muslim slaves captured in war and also the Islamic World was engaged in slavery throughout its history. Slavery became common within the British Isles during the Middle Ages. Britain played a prominent role in the Atlantic slave trade, especially after 1600. Slavery was a legal institution in all of the 13 American colonies and Canada (acquired by Britain in 1763).
Evidence of slavery predates written records, the practice of slavery would have proliferated after the development of agriculture during the Neolithic Revolution about 11,000 years ago.[citation needed]
Slavery was known in civilizations as old as Sumer, as well as almost every other ancient civilization, including Ancient Egypt, Ancient China, the Akkadian Empire, Assyria, Ancient India, Ancient Greece, the Roman Empire, the Islamic Caliphate, and the pre-Columbian civilizations of the Americas.[13]
Such institutions were a mixture of debt-slavery, punishment for crime, the enslavement of prisoners of war, child abandonment, and the birth of slave children to slaves.[14]
Remarks: So it seems that slavery went back thousands of years, it did not start with Europeans putting Africans in chains. Slavery itself actually goes back to Biblical times where the slaves were servants (helpers). Why it happened then was because of original tribal peoples transgressions, having sex outside of their marriages, creating children. Look at Cain and Abel. One was a bad child, one was good. The bad one displayed all the evil tendencies man still has, and went around wreaking havoc. Disharmony set into the tribes, wars resulted, people were taken prisoners and that's how slavery really began.
SLAVERY BEGAN DUE TO WARS, NOTHING ELSE.
I do not accept collective guilt for the situation Africans ended up in. I was not there, my ancestors were not there doing it. With regards to the situations against people who were put in Abu Ghraib or Gitmo, well these are the times we are living in now. We have some say over what happens during the times we live in. And people accepting those conditions (inhumanity) is something they should feel guilty over. Muslims have been fighting for thousands of years, they do not accept slavery or servitude to human taskmasters, if the Africans were too stupid to launch some jihad back when they were being put into slavery, then they are partially responsible for what happened to them.
Why didn't they launch a revolt?
They didn't run away from their plantations until the civil war days.
They accepted their servitude (which does not mean it was justified), but there is a lesson to be learned from slavery.
You think it cannot happen again? It may not happen to the Africans, but how far away from slavery is anyone else? When a government begins dismantling the Constitution of the country that guarantees people rights and freedoms, the people need to wake up.
Ah, now I understand Gina the African Americans should feel guilty for accepting being slaves.
And by your logic it is the Jews fault that the Nazi's practiced genocide on them during WWII.
And the millions of Russians Stalin killed during his purges? Not Stalin's fault as they were asking for it.
Or the estimated Million plus people killed by the Khmer Rouge during the purges in Cambodia after the Vietnam War. They did not fight back so F**kem as it is their fault they were killed or subjugated.
Or how about all the innocent civilians being killed by ISIS for no apparent reason? They deserved it for not fighting back yes?
Thanks for setting me straight Gina all these years I thought all these people were innocent victims.
I don't know how you come to the conclusions:
Ah, now I understand Gina the African Americans should feel guilty for accepting being slaves.
What I am saying is those who do not fight back when tyranny is being forced upon them cannot expect that they will not be subjugated. Obviously they did not know what was going to be done to them, but they should have resisted being taken from their villages. They should have fought until they were shot dead to protect their village and it's values, property (houses), women and children. How is it that so many ended up on those boats? They did not fight back to the level sufficient to not become a slave.
And by your logic it is the Jews fault that the Nazi's practiced genocide on them during WWII.
It is not their fault that group wanted to practice ethnic genocide, but they too (except for the ones who decided to try to break out of the camps and some successfully did) got on the trains, believing the ruling regime at the time and their lie that they were going to "work camps".
I hope some Americans are smarter the next time when a national disaster (financial, epidemic, invasion) happens and people are told to get on the bus to the trains and go to the FEMA concentration camps for their 'own safety'. But no, they will get on the trains, the train tracks run to the camps, they will enter into them, all paid for by their tax dollars and built by Halliburton, and the New World Order will begin their eugenics.
I cannot speak about the Russians or Cambodians as I do not know much about those conflicts.
"Or how about all the innocent civilians being killed by ISIS for no apparent reason? They deserved it for not fighting back yes?"
ISIS wants a worldwide caliphate, since our government has a policy of not trading hostages, anyone caught by Isis should realize their fate is probably death. Other countries, like France will pay ransom for hostage release, and Isis might be willing to do prisoner swaps, but our country does not want to do that AS A POLICY. Exceptions have been made for certain people based on information and circumstances the public will never know about. (intelligence agency related).
People by and large are unaware of what is going on in the world and in the country, they are busy, they are tired. How many even know about the Jade Helm military exercises going on? They are preparing for potential civil war INSIDE this country. One of the exercises involved role playing actors pretending to be protesters saying things like "I'm a sovereign citizen", 'I have rights' , what kind of situations would that be used in that military troops have to practice training exercises for? MARTIAL LAW.
Posse Commitatus was already repealed. Few know that, but it was.
Anyone who does not want to become a slave in the future needs to be more aware.
What if the state of South Carolina removed the battle flag from the monument on the Capitol grounds and raised the Stars n' Bars in its place?
[Edited on 7/5/2015 by BIGV]
That's right, no more state sovereignty, just one conglomerate nation. The three stripes represent the North American Union (Canada, US, Mexico). Anyone who does not know what the plan is for the North American Union needs to learn. it is NOT just about trade deals. When the sovereignty of the states is taken away, the government will decide everything for everyone in the country. But it won't stop there, one world, one order, one army all led by one ruler, who ultimately will be the anti-Christ. All that is happening now and will happen leads up to that. When the real Jesus emerges, he will be a holy man and will be called a terrorist. 80,000 troops will be launched against him, prior to his destroying the anti-Christ. Who will be fighting with him? People in turbans, but not everyone in a turban will be a good fighter or good person. There will be fights amongst those groups, which is already happening these days. Isis versus the Shiites and Afghan Talibs etc. If Isis is destroyed, another group will emerge as fighters re-group and align with others. The Syrian situation has provided more inspiration than Osama ever could have for Muslims to rise up and try to create a worldwide caliphate.
People think it's just sectarian fighting, it isn't. The Islamic and Christian prophecies all speak of the same things. Go to your Bible read Ezekiel, Chapter 37 and 38, that is your End Times wars. China, Russia will be against the US, and as I mentioned because of the Syrian oil situation impacting Russia's currency, they will have to either go down or be at war with us.
Greece is the start of things to come, Italy, Spain and Portugal will follow in the short term. All of the financial collapses lead up to a one world currency, not immediately, but later on.
People can just go about their lives in ignorance and wait to see what happens or they can find out and have a say in their future. The former slaves never had a say in their future. That's the point.
No Gina, that isn't the New World Order Illuminati flag, that is the first Confederate flag, the Stars and Bars. The stars were the secessionist states.
It was like pulling teeth to find out what the stripes represented, wiki didn't have it, none of the flag sites had it, finally found at archive.org http://www.archive.org/stream/historyofstarsba00unit/historyofstarsba00unit_djvu.txt
"[the bars] took from the Trinity, 'Three in One.' The three bars were
for the Church, State and Press. Red represented State, legis-
lative, judiciary and executive; white for Church, Father, Son
and Holy Ghost ; red for press, freedom of speech, freedom of
conscience and liberty of press — all bound together by a field
of blue (the heavens over all), bearing a Star for each State in
the Confederation."
Some views from the Civil War era of the meaning of the Confederate flags, as the flag went through changes:
The original Stars and Bars was disliked because it looked too much like the Union flag:
William T. Thompson, the editor of the Savannah-based Daily Morning News objected to the [Stars and Bars] flag, stating in April 1863 that he was opposed to it "on account of its resemblance to that of the abolition despotism against which we are fighting."
On the "Stainless" flag, mostly a white flag, not adopted because it would look too much like surrender:
W.T. Thompson, the flag's designer, referred to his design as "The White Man's Flag". In referring to the white field that comprised a large part of the flag's design elements, Thompson stated that its color symbolized the "supremacy of the white man":
"As a people we are fighting maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause.".
—William T. Thompson (April 23, 1863), Daily Morning News
"As a national emblem, it is significant of our higher cause, the cause of a superior race, and a higher civilization contending against ignorance, infidelity, and barbarism. Another merit in the new flag is, that it bears no resemblance to the now infamous banner of the Yankee vandals."
—William T. Thompson (May 4, 1863), Daily Morning News
General William Bagby saw the blue cross on the battle flag as a "Southern Cross":
"the destiny of the Southern master and his African slave", pointing them southward to "the banks of the Amazon", expressing the desire many Confederates held of expanding slavery southward into Latin America."
SO STOP TRYING TO FEED US YOUR "CIVIL WAR WASN'T ABOUT SLAVERY" BS ! ! !
[Edited on 7/12/2015 by BrerRabbit]
People can just go about their lives in ignorance and wait to see what happens or they can find out and have a say in their future. The former slaves never had a say in their future. That's the point.
How differently could things have turned out if the prospective slaves had been armed? Enquiring minds want to know. Might have changed history.
[Edited on 7/12/2015 by alloak41]
It represents a flag for which people fought to keep a way of life that included free human labor....
Now you can run off about all sorts of other thing it may represent but it represents a way of life that includes slavery...
And it is of a country (the seceded southern states) that was quashed and doesn't exit. Governments don't fly flags of the country they USED to be or the US would still be flying the Union Jack.
Which reminds me, do southern colleges still play Dixie at football games? Shocked the first time I heard that.
I saw this in the paper this morning and it made me think of Gina:
I was thinking about the uproar over the Confederate battle flag this weekend. I know all Nazi symbolism is banned in Germany so it got me thinking about the Japanese Rising Sun flag.
For some reason I thought I had read this was banned in Japan but to my surprise it is not only not banned but is a symbol of pride there and adorns many products like beer cans
To the other Asian countries, that were subjugated as slaves by Japan in WWII, this flag seems to raise passions wanting it to be banned from display but to date it has not happened in Japan.
Any thoughts on this symbol of imperialism and subjugation?
http://english.anti-risingsunflag.net/
[Edited on 7/13/2015 by Bill_Graham]
I actually have a Kamikaze rising sun bandana with sinister Japanese writing on it I keep stashed in my backpack to tie round my head in those final moments of glory! Really! That's why I keep it! For when I crash my Zero into whatever! Tora Tora Tora! Kamikazes rule!
I actually have a Kamikaze rising sun bandana with sinister Japanese writing on it I keep stashed in my backpack to tie round my head in those final moments of glory! Really! That's why I keep it! For when I crash my Zero into whatever! Tora Tora Tora! Kamikazes rule!
I have no dog in this hunt BR but seems this is an Asian version of the Confederate Flag controversy here. It is even being removed from a popular video game because Korean players objected to its symbolism.
http://kotaku.com/world-war-ii-battleship-game-angers-players-in-south-ko-675913077
And a Muse video sparked controversy in Japan
http://kotaku.com/muse-uses-japans-rising-sun-imagery-forget-it-pisses-477840958
So we are not the only country embroiled in a flag controversy.
Japan has never formally apologized for their atrocious behaviour toward the Chinese, the Rape of Nanking the most egregious example, and their abominable actions during WW2, their abuse of POW's, complete disregard of the Geneva Convention. Very different than the national conscience shown by Germany, and the USA, which has shown that these countries are dedicated to avoidance of repetition of past tragedies. Japan will never admit the Rising Sun is wrong, because unlike Germany or Dixie, Japan will do it all over again given the military might and opportunity.
Japan has never formally apologized for their atrocious behaviour toward the Chinese, the Rape of Nanking the most egregious example, and their abominable actions during WW2, their abuse of POW's, complete disregard of the Geneva Convention. Very different than the national conscience shown by Germany, and the USA, which has shown that these countries are dedicated to avoidance of repetition of past tragedies. Japan will never admit the Rising Sun is wrong, because unlike Germany or Dixie, Japan will do it all over again given the military might and opportunity.
All good points but should they ban the Rising Sun symbolism in Japan? Does apologizing for the atrocities, which of course they should acknowledge, make it all right to flaunt this symbol of Japanese imperialism?
Personally think symbols are just symbols and should not be banned, but that said, public buildings should only display current public symbols. Which seems to be the root of the issue here.
Re the Rising Sun, it is moot whether anyone thinks it should be banned or not, because, to reiterate my last post, for that to happen Japan has to admit past wrongdoing. Which will never happen. So that symbol will never go away. Very different culture. They will go on eating dolphins and live monkey brains and whatever else they can get away with, they don't care a whit about world opinion.
No Gina, that isn't the New World Order Illuminati flag, that is the first Confederate flag, the Stars and Bars. The stars were the secessionist states.
It was like pulling teeth to find out what the stripes represented, wiki didn't have it, none of the flag sites had it, finally found at archive.org http://www.archive.org/stream/historyofstarsba00unit/historyofstarsba00unit_djvu.txt
"[the bars] took from the Trinity, 'Three in One.' The three bars were
for the Church, State and Press. Red represented State, legis-
lative, judiciary and executive; white for Church, Father, Son
and Holy Ghost ; red for press, freedom of speech, freedom of
conscience and liberty of press — all bound together by a field
of blue (the heavens over all), bearing a Star for each State in
the Confederation."
I have never seen it before. The original one I saw had just 13 stars for the 13 colonies and I'm not sure how many stripes. I would like to see Oh Beautiful replace the Star Spangled Banner as our national anthem. We need peace more than relishing 'the rocket's red glare', the Afghans ought to be singing that one!
Japan has never formally apologized for their atrocious behaviour toward the Chinese, the Rape of Nanking the most egregious example, and their abominable actions during WW2, their abuse of POW's, complete disregard of the Geneva Convention. Very different than the national conscience shown by Germany, and the USA, which has shown that these countries are dedicated to avoidance of repetition of past tragedies. Japan will never admit the Rising Sun is wrong, because unlike Germany or Dixie, Japan will do it all over again given the military might and opportunity.
All good points but should they ban the Rising Sun symbolism in Japan? Does apologizing for the atrocities, which of course they should acknowledge, make it all right to flaunt this symbol of Japanese imperialism?
Hiroshima was one of the most horrible atrocities we committed, and yes I know about Pearl Harbor, but we genetically mutated and damaged more people than they did. I don't think we as a nation ever apologized for the damage we have done globally. I know Hiroshima was retaliatory, but it was still too much of a response for what they did here.
We killed millions of Iraqis, and they really did not do anything to us before our onslaught after 9.11. It was not justified. Millions of people murdered. and on and on.
....Very different culture. They will go on eating dolphins and ...
I just had some dolphin the other day and I don't even know a Japanese person. Now, monkey brains, that is another story, doubt I would ever go there.
I would like to see Oh Beautiful replace the Star Spangled Banner as our national anthem. We need peace more than relishing 'the rocket's red glare'
I agree! I have always thought America the Beautiful was a better choice for an anthem. Love the Ray Charles rendition.
I've always said that it's our poor education system, and poor selection of talent among our teachers, that is a major problem in this country. We need to be educating our children on how to navigate through today's world of propaganda from left and right extremists, that they must consider the sources of their information, and be able to recognize bias when they see it. We need a much better social studies program nationwide that addresses these issues, in addition to the standard math, science, history, etc. As times change, so should the classes offered in our schools, at a young age. Students are disillusioned today because our teachers are practicing ancient methods that no longer work. They lecture instead of engage. They read to students, instead of teach and explain. Their tests don't really test anything, and there's no inspiration....generally speaking. Sometimes I believe that if students are disillusioned and uninspired, it's the school system's fault for not being creative and innovative.
Great post. When you read or hear something, it's important to 1) know the source, 2) examine exactly what was said, and 3) notice what was not said. The latter sometimes speaks volumes.
"Black Officer Helps White Supremacist Suffering From Heat at KKK Rally"
Never once has it been the other way around -- white officers have always treated blacks like criminals, innocent or guilty -- in this case, the black officer saw past white hate and violence, to help someone -- this is an example that needs following
