Obamacare is the apple, todays democratic party is Eve and socialism is the snake.

Who's Adam?

I work in healthcare.

Let's get this straight:
Christians don't think they should have to pay for healthcare?

Did you want it free?

After all no other business is required to provide services free
to those who can't pay.

Hey if you have no insurance and will handle it all with prayer,
go ahead.

Did Jesus believe in forcing people to give to another man? Would he support those that can't by taking from those who can? I'm not a Jesus guy, thinking back to my youth at church it seems to me he would certainly encourage it, preaching and leading by example, but I'm not sure he would force those against their will to do what he sees as right. Then I guess judgement day would reflect their actions accordingly.

It is one thing when you or I or anyone decides to reach out and help personally or get involved with a group that helps those in need. There is a want-to, a genuine caring aspect of helping people. Then I think it is another thing when a group or somebody tells someone they must help, must donate, they must contribute to make someone else's life better. This can create some resentment and suspicion about the process.

If Jesus were to teach me the right thing to do is to help others and ask me to give I might be inclined to do so. If Jesus told me I must help others and reached in my pocket without consent I would become defensive and reluctant.

WWJD is fine my question still stands:

Do you expect a hospital to treat you for free bc you
don't want to pay your share, or are you content
not to beg for services you can't afford?

It's legal to kill your child with prayer in many states, rather than seek
available medical care.

They don't call it murder they call it 'religious exemption'

So if you don't want insurance, and you can't afford to pay your way,
you agree to go without?

Do you expect a hospital to treat you for free bc you
don't want to pay your share

Obamacare isnt free, and they choose it because it’s affordable, not because they don’t feel like paying for it.

I understand we all have our political positions and that’s fine, but I just don’t see a leper coming to Jesus for healing, and hear, “My son, I want to heal you right now, but it wouldn’t be fair to those who pay for it. I’m sorry. You must go. Good luck.”

Do you expect a hospital to treat you for free bc you
don't want to pay your share

Obamacare isnt free, and they choose it because it’s affordable, not because they don’t feel like paying for it.

I understand we all have our political positions and that’s fine, but I just don’t see a leper coming to Jesus for healing, and hear, “My son, I want to heal you right now, but it wouldn’t be fair to those who pay for it. I’m sorry. You must go. Good luck.”

This is a common misconception many folks have, this idea that people are demanding free healthcare. It was and still is called the Affordable Healthcare Act, referring to it as Obamacare was a good tactic to insure that a certain contingent of politicians and voters would not approve of anything related to Obama.

Correct. ACA plans are not free. Their cost is just subsidized a little or a lot for people in certain income categories and generally these people use more services on these plans than their premiums cover.

Their cost is just subsidized a little or a lot for people in certain income categories

Correct and that "subsidy" is covered by the Taxpayer, which means it has nothing whatsoever to do with "Giving". It is money "taken" and therefore has zero to do with the spirit of lending a helping hand to those in need. That definition would fit perfectly if those who wanted to help did so by donating their own, hard earned income.

Their cost is just subsidized a little or a lot for people in certain income categories

Correct and that "subsidy" is covered by the Taxpayer, which means it has nothing whatsoever to do with "Giving". It is money "taken" and therefore has zero to do with the spirit of lending a helping hand to those in need. That definition would fit perfectly if those who wanted to help did so by donating their own, hard earned income.

That's more of a statement regarding taxation, not healthcare, no?

There's all kinds of things subsidized by public funds, including some rather large free market entities that are presumably supposed to survive and thrive without such assistance.

Personally, I don't look at any fellow human receiving medical care as a theft from me. I've been born into a societal context that requires some sort of collective mentality. We interact with and do business with each other according to rules set by the majority. A red light is just a lightbulb behind colored glass. 99.9% of the time we all follow that simple rule because we have committed to an orderly society in which we depend on each other to make it work.

Isn't that where the heart of the matter is, past the political labels? Doesn't it start at the humanist level?

And yes, indeed...there are all high level concepts. The details of reality do dirty the waters quickly.

A friend of mine is between jobs and was looking into buying health insurance. Unfortunately for him, he let his employer sponsored coverage lapse (didn't pick up COBRA) and now only qualifies for ACA plans during open enrollment. He was working with an insurance agent. If his income is $2000 per month or less he qualifies for a $441 per month premium subsidy. So looking at the pdf attachment he emailed me, the cheapest ACA compliant plan available is an individual Medical Mutual plan with a $7900 deductible, the premium goes from $615.35 to $174.35. Great deal right! He's down on his luck and needs a hand right now, let's help. Someone in this position with a $24,000 annual income gets a $5,292 subsidy for his health insurance. Who is making up the difference in that cost? Rich nation, we can afford to pay $5000 for millions who otherwise can't afford it I guess. Why the hell does that plan cost so much to begin with? $615 with a $7900 deductible is about highway robbery! So much for making the plans affordable. Sure they are affordable for the one getting the subsidy. Not so much for the ones paying the bill.

Why the hell does that plan cost so much to begin with?

The cost charts, matrixes and algorithms. The secret stuff.

This is the only sector of business where cost is so, so well hidden until well after the fact, by all entities involved.

We know that a cup of coffee at Starbucks is $5 because we can read a menu board, but we have no idea what anything is going to cost when our lives are the product.

Auto insurance is required, does Jesus oppose this?

I think the real argument is a resistance to put funds into
a public coffer. Ok. That leaves out roads, schools and healthcare.
AND the military.

Funny how religious arguments are used to justify the third-worldification
of the US. Healthcare only if charity gives it otherwise nothing? Food too, huh?

Since of you better travel outside the US and see what poverty
and systemic lack of opportunity looks like.

[Edited on 12/8/2018 by WaitinForRain]

I know. It is terrible. I asked how much an overnight sleep study (snoring) was going to cost one time at the sleep doctor and they couldn't believe I would ask. "well it depends on your insurance". I said, "how much will you bill my insurance". Floored, they said "we don't know until we have your insurance". And I said "why would that matter, what would you charge if I was paying without insurance". Confused they said "you don't want your insurance to pay for it". I didn't schedule the sleep study. Screw those people who can't supply a quote for service they are about to provide.

It's like, we get quotes and estimates for every other major purchase or investment or project in our lives and when it comes to something with the doctor nobody cares, just do it, whatever it costs, somebody else will be paying for it anyway...charge away!

Their cost is just subsidized a little or a lot for people in certain income categories

Correct and that "subsidy" is covered by the Taxpayer, which means it has nothing whatsoever to do with "Giving". It is money "taken" and therefore has zero to do with the spirit of lending a helping hand to those in need. That definition would fit perfectly if those who wanted to help did so by donating their own, hard earned income.

That's more of a statement regarding taxation, not healthcare, no?

There's all kinds of things subsidized by public funds, including some rather large free market entities that are presumably supposed to survive and thrive without such assistance.

Personally, I don't look at any fellow human receiving medical care as a theft from me. I've been born into a societal context that requires some sort of collective mentality. We interact with and do business with each other according to rules set by the majority. A red light is just a lightbulb behind colored glass. 99.9% of the time we all follow that simple rule because we have committed to an orderly society in which we depend on each other to make it work.

Isn't that where the heart of the matter is, past the political labels? Doesn't it start at the humanist level?

And yes, indeed...there are all high level concepts. The details of reality do dirty the waters quickly.

I would use your post to address the % of hard working Americans who are just scraping by . Meaning after rent/mortgage etc; (including their own Healthcare costs) here you are struggling to maintain the integrity of your work ethic and you have to stand by to watch and listen to others receive subsidies for something you choose to work your A** off for merely to provide for you and yours.

Add to that, I am the first person to offer to buy food for people asking for handouts..."Are you hungry"? I will ask, heading into a store, I will emerge with a bag containing a banana, peanuts and some lunch meats, costing me less than $5, only to find about 50% will look at you like "I don't want this".....But, I chose to help, I offered to help, it made me feel better to help. No one reached into my pocket for whatever reason. It was/is my choice. Is that not in the spirit of the thread title?

Is there anyone here that considers themselves a Christian, but opposes Obamacare? I’m hoping to understand that. Throughout the Bible, Jesus helps the less fortunate. It’s what Christian children are taught in Vacation Bible School. Yet when Obama proposes ACA, the most devout Christians in the country not only oppose the idea, but hate the man for even suggesting such a horrible idea. Wouldn’t a Christian be happy about it?

I'm a Christian who opposes Obamacare. Jesus made it clear that we were to help each other as individuals; He never said that the government should be involved in this.

As far as the government taxing churches is concerned, I'm opposed to this because it could easily give the gov't far too much influence over churches and other religious organizations. Religion must be free and uncontrolled. I infer this from the First Amendment. Once the gov't can interfere with church finances, etc., it becomes too easy to develop favorites, eventually leading to theocracies.

The govt. is already involved in religion, they are helping with building the NEW Roman temple in Jerusalem. Construction begins next year. The announcement comes after the elections in Israel at Netanyahu's request t hold off announcing the Peace Treaty (which includes re-building the Temple) until after the elections which I think are in January. All hell will break loose sometime next year or by 2020.

Obamacare is the apple, todays democratic party is Eve and socialism is the snake.

Who's Adam?

Adam was a progressive who preferred to live off the grid, but he became involved with a woman who was deceived and then she led Adam astray and the rest is history.

A friend of mine is between jobs and was looking into buying health insurance. Unfortunately for him, he let his employer sponsored coverage lapse (didn't pick up COBRA) and now only qualifies for ACA plans during open enrollment. He was working with an insurance agent. If his income is $2000 per month or less he qualifies for a $441 per month premium subsidy. So looking at the pdf attachment he emailed me, the cheapest ACA compliant plan available is an individual Medical Mutual plan with a $7900 deductible, the premium goes from $615.35 to $174.35. Great deal right! He's down on his luck and needs a hand right now, let's help. Someone in this position with a $24,000 annual income gets a $5,292 subsidy for his health insurance. Who is making up the difference in that cost? Rich nation, we can afford to pay $5000 for millions who otherwise can't afford it I guess. Why the hell does that plan cost so much to begin with? $615 with a $7900 deductible is about highway robbery! So much for making the plans affordable. Sure they are affordable for the one getting the subsidy. Not so much for the ones paying the bill.

I have an idea. Why don't we send home those who come here illegally. Take the money we would have used to give them medical and other benefits and use that to lower the cost regular legal Americans have to pay for health insurance? Oh yeah the greed of the insurance companies and their lobbyists in Washington wouldn't go along with that.

Half the country who supports Obamacare, don't see it as money being "taken" from their pockets....in a vote of support, we're glad to offer it to those in need. That's why we learned in Sunday School. I guess it's a matter of perspective, and as the thread goes, would Jesus vote yes? I think so. For something like health, it's a given. As for driving and other privliges, that's a whole different thread.

[Edited on 12/8/2018 by BoytonBrother]

Half the country who supports Obamacare, don't see it as money being "taken" from their pockets....in a vote of support, we're glad to offer it to those in need.

I hardly think you are speaking for "half the country".....Once again, "We're" is you. You don't mind. Perhaps you might be first in line to "Voluntarily" donate part of Your paycheck, perhaps not.

I think "half the Country" does not support paying for anyone else's Healthcare when they can barely afford their own.

Just funny that the conservative religious right hates giving extra to provide healthcare for those in need, and the scientific liberals are happy to do it. Speaks volumes to me.

Evangelicals don't care about the teachings of Jesus.

You would thing most people would want universal healthcare. The costs would be a lot less, especially if people got check-ups and stayed healthy and caught things early. People that don't have healthcare and don't go unless they have to or don't get vaccinations endanger everyone.....

You would thing most people would want universal healthcare. The costs would be a lot less,

Ask a Canadian about universal healthcare....

How was your last visit to the DMV?

Another false flag. Most Canadians love their healthcare..... there are other countries that have it too.... ask about them.

Even Trump admin analysis shows it would cost less.......

Most Canadians love their healthcare....

Ahhh, No. And they certainly do not care for the Taxes or the wait.

I don't like the system we have. Insurance companies suck. I really don't see any difference in having an insurance company making your health decisions or the government doing it - both are bad options really, but I guess you have to have one unless everyone just pays out of pocket.

I could support a single payer system, just cut the insurance companies completely out of it or they can just sell supplemental policies like they do for Medicare. Medicare for all system would be ok with me...I just want them to fund it properly and think that everyone, everyone, must have some financial stake in the cost of their health care spreading the tax responsibility across everyone who is, has or will use the system. No low income exemptions and no high income exemptions. Everyone pay the same % of earned income and then some fixed or proportional amount for the services they received so there is some appreciation for how much cost they are creating for the system.

Evangelicals don't care about the teachings of Jesus.

That's a pretty inflammatory statement. Can you back this up with facts, or is this just an opinion? ("Opinions are like a$$holes. Everybody's got one." -- Duane Allman)

Billastro

Most Canadians love their healthcare....

Ahhh, No. And they certainly do not care for the Taxes or the wait.

Probably not the same all over Canada. I had 9 Canadians on a tour I took to Eastern Europe. They thought we were the ones who were nuts.... If I call my doctor here I have to wait - I can't get an appointment this afternoon - but I do have the option of going to immediate care.

Our luggage was lost for 4 days - my brother-in-law had to have a doctor visit the hotel and get him 2 prescriptions. The doctor visit was 100 euros, and a month's supply of the drugs were $5 instead of the over $40 he pays here.

Most Canadians love their healthcare....

Ahhh, No. And they certainly do not care for the Taxes or the wait.

I have a lot of Canadian friends and relatives (wife's actually), and when discussing the Canadian health care system, although all have some complaints, not a single one would trade theirs for ours.