I guess my belief is the ultimate decision for consensual sex lies with the woman and the word "NO"....Men can wear a condom and women can say no.....
"Consensual" means both agree. If a dude doesn't wear a condom, to paraphrase some here, his actions have consequences.
Agreed. If a dude doesn’t wear a condom and it is consensual, could one argue that it is the woman’s choice to become pregnant?
It's also the man's choice to make her pregnant. Otherwise this is an incredibly narrow view that ignores many factors or possibilities (faulty birth control, irregular cycle, many other issues that women are better able to relate than you and I). There is an eagerness here to blame 1 party for the actions of 2 for something that often is an accident. But since we agree women should have the choice to control their body after the fact, I'm not going to argue the semantics and various factors of how a man might get a woman pregnant since the "how" is irrelevant.
At what point is an abortion wrong
That depends on where you live.
There's a lot of chat about condom use for consenting adults. Quite frankly, if a guy isn't using a condom w/anyone other than his faithful wife, he's open to STDs plus pregnancy. The old adage you're not just sleeping w/her, you're sleeping w/all the other guys she's been with...
I'm more concerned about abortion for the 11-yr-old girl who is abused by her (father, brother, mom's boyfriend, neighborhood predator, uncle, grandfather, fill-in-the-blank), a college student roofied & raped by an entitled frat boy, a pregnant married woman who discovers she has cancer & is told life-saving chemo will severely damage the fetus, & the Halle Berry phenom where a 47-yr-old married woman who believes her family is complete & has been told by her doc she's beyond child-bearing age discovers she has a "geriatric pregnancy" w/health risks to herself & the fetus.
All valid.
Hey! What about this idea, not mentioned by anyone so far, on either side: All rape incest health dramatics and tragice extremes aside:
What if someone just plain does not wish to continue with a pregnancy? What if they simply do not feel like it?
Wow, what a radical notion. That it is a basic right, and you can shove your moralizing. Amazing how the religious programmng framed the question in terms of "extreme cases", just one small push more to "in no cases".
What about this idea, not mentioned by anyone so far, on either side:
And here I thought you read my posts.
My first (& only) point was that abortion is legal. Period. 9 MEN decided that 50 years ago.
It's the attempt to restrict if not deny universal access that keeps dragging this single law into the political arena to the exclusion of more urgent policy legislation & decisions. Think of all the time, money, and brain power that might be applied to actual issues!!!!!
cyclone yes I did read your posts. You did spell it out. It is just surreal that even ostensibly "pro-choice" voters are getting all wishywashy with all this "extreme cases" apologistics. The whole conversation is way out on the right now. Folks forget that we live in the modern world, where termination of pregnancy is legal, safe, available, and affordable. Forcing the issue out to hang on rape, incest, all that is just a push toward banning.
Folks forget that we live in the modern world, where termination of pregnancy is legal, safe, available, and affordable
Those who find this unacceptable also cling to the mystifying belief that adoption is a slam/dunk alternative. Realistically, many affluent couples prefer to adopt a baby from Eastern Europe and Eurasia than the US & those are the most heavily promoted agencies for private adoption conduits.
IMO, affluent women rely increasingly on non-invasive post-intercourse procedures like medication & devices in addition to abortion. Big Pharma (which DOES have influence in DC) has more efficient, effective, & wider window alternatives in the pipeline. I foresee a time when abortion is an obsolete invasive medical procedure & Roe is moot.
Would it help if I called you son so the thread is livelier?
Think of all the time, money, and brain power that might be applied to actual issues!!!!!
Kinda like Congress?
Would it help if I called you son so the thread is livelier?
No problem junior!
I appreciate cyclone88's contributions to this thread!
I appreciate cyclone88's contributions to this thread!
Why, thank you. As Mr. Rabbit points out, we do seem to be having civil discussions about what can be inflammatory topics these days. Things will probably heat up as we move into 2020.
"To say that the Fetus is a person if the mother wants it and it's not if she doesn't is not science. It's spin"
William McGurn
Pro-choice my @ss.
Pro-choice my @ss.
I am absolutely. Growing tired of women yelling at Men trying to take away "Their rights".....
It's your body, none of the Governments business; act like adults and not victims
I am absolutely. Growing tired of women yelling at Men trying to take away "Their rights".....
It's your body, none of the Governments business; act like adults and not victims
Wait, you're tired of the politicians trying to take away women's rights or you're tired about women yelling about it?
[Edited on 5/21/2019 by porkchopbob]
Ok, if you are so "pro-choice", how about one itty bitty post saying why you support women in this regard. All I have ever seen from you is that you are "pro choice", all your actual words go to undermining that position. Quoting McGurn, he is vehemently against the right to choose.
Unfortunately this is an issue where you end up on a side whether you want to or not.
I am flat out pro-choice. My wife and I chose to have a kid. Because we were personally uncomfortable with abortion. Personal decision. Kid stone autistic, still a toddler at 14, I have been pretty much mom and dad, primary caregiver his whole life. By choice. How many guys out there have done fulltime mom work? Let alone for a permanent baby?
Men want a say in pregnancy? Then how about men earning that right by stepping up and doing child care?
"To say that the Fetus is a person if the mother wants it and it's not if she doesn't is not science. It's spin"
William McGurn
Can you cite where someone has tried to have it both ways? Because, as I mentioned before, many of the laws that protect a fetus "as a person" were introduced by pro-life politicians.
Ok, if you are so "pro-choice", how about one itty bitty post saying why you support women in this regard.
Alright. Because I have never walked a foot, much less a mile in their shoes. I have however been a participant in this decision making process, ultimately acquiescing to my girlfriends thoughts and choice.
Once again admitting that this is a deeply personal decision to end a life, I stand in no ones way once that choice has been made and advocate for no law prohibiting that choice.
I appreciate the discussion taking place here and the civility involved but remain torn between taking part in a legal activity while terminating a life.
The point is and will remain "When does a Human life begin"?
The point is and will remain "When does a Human life begin"?
That is a religious, philosophical, existential question that has nothing to do w/law. Individuals follow the tenets of whatever religion or philosophy they practice in their personal decision-making about many topics, including medical decisions free from government interference. That question applies equally to when does life end.
The point is and will remain "When does a Human life begin"?
Ok ante up. When do you think it begins? I honestly do not know, and I regard the matter in terms of mother's requirements first.
This matter has been managed differently according to custom throughout history. The main point seems to rather be "do you force your beliefs and customs on others?"
The point is and will remain "When does a Human life begin"?
That question applies equally to when does life end.
Are there 3 trimesters regarding the ending of life?
Death is pretty damn final
Death is pretty damn final
Cardiac death is final. However, since the 1960s when life support usage became widespread, that question is raised in hospitals every day & encompasses persistent vegetative state, coma, & so-called "brain" death that calls into question organ harvesting, artificial nutrition & hydration, hope v. futility, and the religious benefit of suffering.
The point is and will remain "When does a Human life begin"?
Ok ante up. When do you think it begins?
I do not profess to know either. My belief? Life begins and ends with the beating of a heart.
Heartbeat, eh? That's pretty generous. That certainly cuts you a couple months of moral slack. Don't feel bad, For me life begins when the sperm separates and embarks upon its holy quest. I get another billion years in hell every time I spill the blessed seed, one year for each precious life robbed of its godgiven right to a chance at glory. I might have to convert to your belief system, it is a lot more relaxed.
I do believe abortion is killing a life, be it an embryo or an early stage fetus - before or after the heartbeat. I think that abortion at 2 weeks or 10 weeks, an unborn baby is being killed. I do not think it is my business, or the government's if the mother wants to or has a need to terminate her pregnancy.
Not challenging your beliefs, at all, seriously nothing but respect for personal belief - just have to point out that you are begging the law to step in if you define abortion as murder.
This is getting pretty tender, getting close to home for all of us. Pretty grim thread. Good angles, but we can only get so far without more input from women so I'm pleased with leaving off. It will sort itself out.
True, it could be considered murder. I just think that anyone who believes in abortion needs to be honest with what is happening. A life is being ended.
I am also fine with capital punishment and think it needs expanded, not eliminated as some states are doing - but that is the choice of the voters and representatives of those states.
I also believe in medically assisted suicide for those with terminal conditions that are competent to make such a decision for themselves. Obviously an unborn baby in the mother's womb does not control such a decision, but that is the fact that the court has ruled it is the mother's option and right for the procedure. If it all changed tomorrow, well, that is fine too. I would rather it not change, but if it did there are a couple dozen other things effecting our nation as a whole that are more important.
[Edited on 5/22/2019 by nebish]
Slavery is pretty important. Tore this country in half once and will again if half the population decides to physically control the other half. It ties into the very foundations of liberty. To shrug it off as unimportant shows a total unawareness of the women's side of history.
I'm being redundant, I know, but FFS, what anyone "believes" is fine in their own head. It has no bearing on the legal rights of others.
True, it is law. And if SOTUS should ever overturn it, that too will then be law. I "believe" that would be the wrong decision, but the nation will survive.
