pretty cool , three pages in on a highly charged subject and no flaming. good work folks
Well Hemp, you asked. I think adoption is better than abortion. If the ladies find themselves pregnant and do not want to be, or are unable to take care of a child, they can allow others who really want one to adopt the child. If the mass of protoplasm would become a child if they did not abort it, then it already is one, so they need to think differently about it. In abortion, they rip the parts off the fetus it is gross, and they put a bucket at the bottom the table where the woman's body drains into. They do not just go in with a medical dust buster vacuum suction device and take it out all nicely.
Some of the legislation would put women in prison for having abortions. I don't think that is the answer either. I think Georgia just passed or is trying to pass something like that. Adoption hurts no one. Isn't that a better alternative to this problem? The women who are having abortions are killing something that is alive inside them, they do not have a right to kill, if they killed a regular person who was walking around, it would be considered murder. Just because the fetus doesn't talk, walk doesn't mean it is nothing or has no right. If it doesn't want to come into this world, it will miscarry or God has mercy on it and says okay you don't have to go there into that cold, cruel world. The decision should rest with God, not pharmaceutical companies making abortion pills for women who need one. IF THEY DON"T WANT THE CHILD, ADOPTION WILL TAKE CARE OF IT AND HARM NO ONE. BETTER SOLUTION.
"The women who are having abortions are killing something that is alive inside them, they do not have a right to kill, if they killed a regular person who was walking around, it would be considered murder."
Yes they do have that right, it was decided in our lifetime that they have that right. A regular person walking around, no, illegal. An unborn living thing inside of them, yes, legal the court has said.
Why do so many people, the pro life group, think they should have influence over somebody else's decisions and life? The baby isn't theirs, why care? Why can't they just mind their own business?
There are many issues surrounding the controversy. Firstly how is abortion a Constitutional right as some claim? It has been said that it is covered under privacy laws of the Constitution.
The states are having their own statewide debates and enacting legislation in their own state regarding the issue, what right do they have to do this, if doing that is unconstitutional?
As someone pointed out today, birth control is widely available, pregnancy can be prevented. If it occurs then options should be made to the pregnant woman, adoption is the one which harms no one. Of course there are other issues, heavily pregnant women could have a hard time working full time jobs, states or the fed would have to grant them paid leave when they need it, ie. the first three months with morning sickness, if they are throwing up a lot, it would be hard to work most jobs. Either disability laws would have to be expanded so they could collect as necessary or something else would need to be done.
I believe people do need to have choices.
But they already do,
1) They can abstain from sex till marriage - then there is no worry because most pregnant wives do not have abortions.
2) They can use birth control preventing most pregnancies. Pick whatever form you like. Become educated and do not have sex during the 3 days a month when you can become (14-17 days of their cycle).
3) Enjoy their life and not worry about it, and if they become pregnant and are unable to take on the responsibility of raising a child, let someone else adopt it.
Those are choices already available. There ARE choices. No one is even trying to tell them what their moral code has to be. That is up to them.
This is a true story, a friend of mine's sister had this boyfriend we considered to be a jerk, she said he wanted to have sex with her but she did not want to become pregnant, and it came down to since the free clinic was too far away and she had no way to get there, if I would drive her there for birth control, then she would have sex, otherwise she would abstain. Even though I thought the boyfriend was a jerk, my friend and I drove her there so that she would be able to have a choice. Taking her there did not mean she would have to have sex with him, but if she did, she could at least be protected. She did have sex with him and later on dumped him. Now has a good husband, life, etc.
We should at least make contraception available to all women/girls who want it, without requiring parental consent.
https://www.fastcompany.com/90350385/this-map-shows-abortion-bans-by-u-s-state-in-2019?ref=hvper.com
https://www.al.com/news/2019/05/alabama-abortion-ban-passes-read-the-bill.html
I do not agree with imprisoning any women or Doctors. Just charge the doctors a fine so that it is not financially worth it to them to be performing the procedures. Withhold insurance company financing for it.
With regards to pregnancies resultant from rapes, if they are unable to love the child as an innocent, the child knows nothing, then give it up for adoption. I would support the paternal father (rapist) having NO parental rights whatsoever in regards to the child.
We as a nation have to provide alternatives to what we are doing now. There can be places set up for the women to live in safety until they deliver their children where they can continue their education and get supportive counseling because any person who is considering an abortion is basically on their own, their boyfriend is not willing to make a long term relationship with them and help raise the child, if they are young they have family trauma/drama that they are unprepared to deal with, if they are trying to work they will need paid time off and supportive services. With the money reimbursed to hospitals and Dr.'s we could use that money to provide services for the women.
[Edited on 5/17/2019 by gina]
They can use birth control preventing most pregnancies. Pick whatever form you like. Become educated and do not have sex during the 3 days a month when you can become (14-17 days of their cycle)
Is there still a way to blame men with this theory?
Is there still a way to blame men if you are pro-choice?
When does life begin?
Life as a separate entity begins with the spermatozoa. A sperm is an independent mobile carbon based life form, with a programmed rudimentary intelligence to carry out its mission. it even has a spine, while the egg is a passive and inactive element of the female reproductive system.
Every sperm is sacred. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bzVHjg3AqIQ
It's mind-boggling that abortion is a single issue vote for some people in 2019. Aren't there about 10 other issues one can name that are more important to the security & stability of the US?
Abortion is legal. The law in Alabama is unconstitutional & will be struck down in the lowest federal court.
[Edited on 5/19/2019 by cyclone88]
Glad I got to read the unredacted version. Well said.
Any man who has ever given himself a "dishonorable discharge" is guilty of the termination of hundreds of millions of potential human lives - and should be executed for genocide.
Fascinating thread with a lot of (mostly) intelligent male views.
There are so many factors/reasons why abortion might be someone's choice.
Sure Gina, you gave a few options one could consider instead however, there is a situation that stands out to me in which abortion would be the obvious choice.
If you became pregnant (by choice), but your health took a turn for to the worse and the medical advice was "If you continue this pregnancy you may not survive" would you continue with it? Or would you save your life? I know what I'd choose.
Us women should all gather and pass laws where all males get a vasectomy (but its reversible !) until the woman is ready for that male to reproduce. Solves a lot of issues. Dont agree? How dare a woman make such a choice for the male body? Right. Back off and let women make the choice for ourselves
It's mind-boggling that abortion is a single issue vote for some people in 2019. Aren't there about 10 other issues one can name that are more important to the security & stability of the US?
In a nutshell, the most profound statement in this thread.
When does life begin?
Life as a separate entity begins with the spermatozoa. A sperm is an independent mobile carbon based life form, with a programmed rudimentary intelligence to carry out its mission. it even has a spine, while the egg is a passive and inactive element of the female reproductive system.
Every sperm is sacred. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bzVHjg3AqIQ
Scientific experiment it is!
Not to get into the middle of this debate, which is pointless in my opinion. Is anyone going to change someone else's opinion on this?
But something kind of related. When I was in high school when a girl got pregnant she was shipped to a special school for girls that were "that way". Even even I thought is was really wrong.
Everything in Moderation. Including Moderation.
It's mind-boggling that abortion is a single issue vote for some people in 2019.
What's "mind boggling" about it?...At least they are going to the Polls and participating in the process. What is mind boggling is the number of citizens who don't Vote at all.
Us women should all gather and pass laws where all males get a vasectomy (but its reversible !) until the woman is ready for that male to reproduce. Solves a lot of issues. Dont agree? How dare a woman make such a choice for the male body? Right. Back off and let women make the choice for ourselves
Great to hear a female perspective for once around here. About time, on a topic that impacts women so severely.
If laws were passed controlling anything on the male side, even some little thing like say mandatory condom use, there would be mass noncompliance, probably riots and war.
Us women should all gather and pass laws where all males get a vasectomy (but its reversible !) until the woman is ready for that male to reproduce. Solves a lot of issues. Dont agree? How dare a woman make such a choice for the male body? Right. Back off and let women make the choice for ourselves
Great to hear a female perspective for once around here. About time, on a topic that impacts women so severely.
If laws were passed controlling anything on the male side, even some little thing like say mandatory condom use, there would be mass noncompliance, probably riots and war.
This will have validity the moment Men can give birth, until that time, women have the power to control the choice concerning the responsibility of becoming pregnant.
The fervor by some to impose their religious/philosophical/existential beliefs onto American citizens via the law & extend those beliefs into the medical decisions of strangers mystifies me. Adults have the absolute right to pursue or refuse medical treatment. Children's medical decisions are made by their parents. There is no other class of person beyond adult & child.
Embryos - whether created to be implanted & gestated through a mother or surrogate or frozen for future use are, by law, PROPERTY. They are owned by their creators & are subject to PROPERTY/CONTRACT law.
Religion may play a role in an individual's medical decision making. Certain life-saving interventions such as organ transplants, bone marrow transplants, blood transfusions, artificial respiration, feeding tubes, and even pain relief are anathema to some established religions. As a result, people whose lives might otherwise have been saved, die. However, those religiously-guided people apply their deeply held beliefs only to themselves & don't impose or attempt to impose them on the rest of America.
The US isn't a theocracy like The Vatican or Iran. It's a democracy w/a constitution that intentionally & forcefully divides politics & religion. We are free to adhere to our religious beliefs but don't have the right to impose them on others. Discrimination is also prohibited. Many states' attempts to circumvent federal law merely create discrimination. There are women & girls who will always have access to abortion. Those who won't are the most vulnerable women & girls thereby creating discrimination & the unconstitutionality of these state exercises in futility.
Believe abortion is wrong. Don't have one. Ask/beg your wife, daughter, girlfriend, one-night-stand, mistress or whoever is pregnant by you not to have one. Beyond that, put your efforts into constitutionally valid causes that benefit the security & stability of the US.
This will have validity the moment Men can give birth, until that time, women have the power to control the choice concerning the responsibility of becoming pregnant.
Controlling male fertility is a perfectly valid and feasible possibility with current technology. Men also possess the "power to control the choice concerning the responsibility of becoming pregnant", as you put it.
[Edited on 5/19/2019 by BrerRabbit]
The fervor by some to impose their religious/philosophical/existential beliefs onto American citizens via the law & extend those beliefs into the medical decisions of strangers mystifies me. Adults have the absolute right to pursue or refuse medical treatment. Children's medical decisions are made by their parents. There is no other class of person beyond adult & child.
Embryos - whether created to be implanted & gestated through a mother or surrogate or frozen for future use are, by law, PROPERTY. They are owned by their creators & are subject to PROPERTY/CONTRACT law.
Religion may play a role in an individual's medical decision making. Certain life-saving interventions such as organ transplants, bone marrow transplants, blood transfusions, artificial respiration, feeding tubes, and even pain relief are anathema to some established religions. As a result, people whose lives might otherwise have been saved, die. However, those religiously-guided people apply their deeply held beliefs only to themselves & don't impose or attempt to impose them on the rest of America.
The US isn't a theocracy like The Vatican or Iran. It's a democracy w/a constitution that intentionally & forcefully divides politics & religion. We are free to adhere to our religious beliefs but don't have the right to impose them on others. Discrimination is also prohibited. Many states' attempts to circumvent federal law merely create discrimination. There are women & girls who will always have access to abortion. Those who won't are the most vulnerable women & girls thereby creating discrimination & the unconstitutionality of these state exercises in futility.
Believe abortion is wrong. Don't have one. Ask/beg your wife, daughter, girlfriend, one-night-stand, mistress or whoever is pregnant by you not to have one. Beyond that, put your efforts into constitutionally valid causes that benefit the security & stability of the US.
Good post cyclone - unfortunately your rational approach to the equation does not factor in the absolute madness and invasive self-righteous bullying of the hardwired evangelical program.
[Edited on 5/19/2019 by BrerRabbit]
Written by an elderly relative of mine, about getting an abortion in the early 1930s, she was already married with three kids, and working as a nurse for Red Cross:
Recalling Illegal Abortion
Over 50 years ago I had an abortion. Of course, at that time it was illegal, but there was no public protest or self-righteous moralizing, either, as there is today. At that time, birth control information was as hard to obtain as abortion information, even from doctors.
There was a nightmare quality to the fear of finding oneself pregnant when not wanting a pregnancy. I have a friend, well past menopause, who says she still sometimes starts from sleep with that feeling of dreaded entrapment.
In my case, the reason for seeking an abortion was that, having had two spontaneous miscarriages at the seventh month period, facing another pregnancy so soon was insupportable. A delivery at seven months is not too different from a full-term delivery. There is the same labor, trauma of delivery and period of recovery. Those who performed abortions did so very secretly and, if discovered, were arrested and sent to jail. The label abortionist carried great stigma.
Considering these facts, it is rather surprising that it was relatively easy to learn where an abortion could be obtained. The information we needed came from someone at my husband’s work place, and the recommended place was said to be reliable. And so it proved to be.
I made a visit to the "clinic" to be interviewed and registered. Naturally, I went alone and without the knowledge of anyone. At the appointed date, I went to the place, which was in one of San Francisco’s many old row houses, in a quiet, edge-of-town area.
The operation was performed in a room that, while not hospital-like, was clean and spacious. Everything about the procedure and place had the appearance of being sanitary and carefully arranged.
The man who did the abortion wore a hood over his head, so I never would have been able to identify him. The nurse who attended him wore nothing over her face.
Afterward I was allowed to rest in a clean and comfortable bed for about an hour, when I was released to go home, on the streetcar.
In light of today’s antiabortion uproar, it seemed an easy, uneventful experience. It is my opinion many of those who make the loudest and most vocal protest have little knowledge about the subject. Someone leads and they rise up and follow. One has to wonder, also, if some of those are motivated by an uneasy conscience.
At any rate, I had no feeling of guilt at the time, nor have I ever regretted the decision, which was unequivocally mine to make.
[Edited on 5/19/2019 by BrerRabbit]
unfortunately your rational approach to the equation does not factor in the absolute madness and invasive self-righteous bullying of the hardwired evangelical program.
[Edited on 5/19/2019 by BrerRabbit]
I naively or not still believe in law, reason & the constitution - after all, Roe was decided by 9 MEN. I also live in the very cramped quarters of NYC where tolerance is necessary to survive, but I wonder what politicians & candidates would look like if this 50-year-old law was taken out of the equation.
This will have validity the moment Men can give birth, until that time, women have the power to control the choice concerning the responsibility of becoming pregnant.
Last I checked how condoms worked, Men do have the power to control whether or not they decide to roll the dice. Unless your name is Mary, it still takes two. However, as long as men can walk away from the responsibility (or defund the means to readily available contraceptives) women should be allowed to make the choice.
This has gotta be a Whipping Post first: 80+ posts so far on an extremely controversial topic - folks actually offering opposing views without beating each other up, or going for the throat, calling each other idiots and worse.
This will have validity the moment Men can give birth, until that time, women have the power to control the choice concerning the responsibility of becoming pregnant.
Last I checked how condoms worked, Men do have the power to control whether or not they decide to roll the dice. Unless your name is Mary, it still takes two. However, as long as men can walk away from the responsibility (or defund the means to readily available contraceptives) women should be allowed to make the choice.
I guess my belief is the ultimate decision for consensual sex lies with the woman and the word "NO"....Men can wear a condom and women can say no.....
. . .the ultimate decision for consensual sex lies with the woman and the word "NO". . .
Fine then, blame women if it that is your tradition, nobody can challenge your personal beliefs. Either way, whether men or women are to blame is a matter of private opinion and has no bearing on women's rights as they stand at present.
This has gotta be a Whipping Post first: 80+ posts so far on an extremely controversial topic - folks actually offering opposing views without beating each other up, or going for the throat, calling each other idiots and worse.
Yeah, well, BoytonBrother hasn't posted yet, has he?
Lol. In my case it is a nice break from being called junior son the bloodthirsty genocidal nihlist anarchist biggest racist on Whipping Post.
well remarkably civil, and not in a phony or boring way too.
I guess my belief is the ultimate decision for consensual sex lies with the woman and the word "NO"....Men can wear a condom and women can say no.....
"Consensual" means both agree. If a dude doesn't wear a condom, to paraphrase some here, his actions have consequences.
I guess my belief is the ultimate decision for consensual sex lies with the woman and the word "NO"....Men can wear a condom and women can say no.....
"Consensual" means both agree. If a dude doesn't wear a condom, to paraphrase some here, his actions have consequences.
Agreed. If a dude doesn’t wear a condom and it is consensual, could one argue that it is the woman’s choice to become pregnant?
If a dude doesn’t wear a condom and it is consensual, could one argue that it is the woman’s choice to become pregnant?
Sure, one could argue that, if one were a conservative legislator grasping at straws to outlaw abortion in one of the many states doing so. I don't see any other reason one would argue along those lines.
"Pro-choice" means you can opt out of having a child. Whether or not you wanted to become pregnant in the first place.
So what is your point with this continuing attempt to prove that women want to get pregnant?
Are you one of these "she was asking for it" type of guys?
If a dude doesn’t wear a condom and it is consensual, could one argue that it is the woman’s choice to become pregnant?
Sure, one could argue that, if one were a conservative legislator grasping at straws to outlaw abortion in one of the many states doing so. I don't see any other reason one would argue along those lines.
"Pro-choice" means you can opt out of having a child. Whether or not you wanted to become pregnant in the first place.
So what is your point with this continuing attempt to prove that women want to get pregnant?
Are you one of these "she was asking for it" type of guys?
I am Pro-Choice and yes I have a difficult time with this issue. I feel the argument has swung to the side where woman are totally without blame here in defense of their right to choose...
At what point is an abortion wrong?
