Win, Lose or Draw released half a century ago today
I of course bought it the minute it came out. Can''t Loose What You Never Had and High Falls I thought were as good as anything on Brothers and Sisters but the other tracks to me sounded as if they were left overs from Brothers and Sisters.
Just Another Love Song and the title track were good I thought but not as good as Brothers and Sisters material.
I was hoping it would be a fantastic album even though I had read about all the delays and problems getting everyone in the studio except Chuck Leavell, Lamar Williams and Jaimoe who were there ready almost everyday but did a lot of waiting.
Eventually it became clear Gregg Allman was not returning from Los Angeles and Cher to record more than Can't Loose What You Never Had so spotty sessions did proceed without Gregg.
But when Dickey showed up one night ready to record Louisiana Lou and Sweet Mama, Johnny Sandlin couldn't find Jaimoe even though Chuck Leavell and Lamar Williams were there. Then Johnny also couldn't find Butch Trucks so Sandlin brought in drummer Bill Stewart and Stewart and Johnny Sandlin did their best to mimic Butch and Jaimoe. Indeed for over a year I thought Butch and Jaimoe were on Louisiana Lou and Sweet Mama but there are not. Gregg isn't on three tracks I understand.
Phil Walden became frustrated too and wanted the followup to Brothers and Sisters the biggest selling album Capricorn ever had before or since and by far the biggest selling album by the Allman Brothers had before or since, Phil wanted it dropped sooner than later. Capricorn made big money off Brothers and Sisters and Phil Walden wanted another album to do the same. $$$$
Walden got Gregg Allman to agree to finish recording the album BUT if Gregg wanted to work in Los Angeles to be near Cher's home.
Phil Walden got the studio time booked in LA and sent Johnny Sandlin to LA with the master tapes and Gregg added his vocals and organ and the album was eventually finished. Johnny Sandlin years later admitted it was the most difficult album he was ever involved with plus pressure from Phil to make another Brothers and Sisters but other than Chuck, Lamar and Jaimoe the band wasn't into it and that especially was the case with Gregg Allman. I wonder if Gregg had decided to go solo and live in LS with Cher but that began to unravel. His relationship with Cher was really messy and it was all over the tabloids in the mid 1970's. Gregg and Cher were on every magazine at one point or another.
Butch Trucks was interviewed by one of the rock magazines and I remember reading Butch complaining about how frustrating and disappointed he was trying to get Win, Lose or Draw finished and Butch was quoted " You can't depend on Gregg Allman for anything!"
That was so disappointing to learn after the great success of Brothers and Sisters and all the sellout shows in 1973 and 74 that the band was on shaky ground and experiencing disharmony.
The solo albums in 1973 and 74 from Gregg and Dickey seemed ill-timed to me. With the tremendous success of Brothers and Sisters and Eat A Peach selling over 2 million copies the year before, why do solo albums and tours with your with new bands.
I didn't know at the time Gregg's solo album actually got started before Brothers and Sisters and Laid Back is how Chuck Leavell became involved with the band.
Gregg was very angry his Queen Of Hearts was not considered for Brothers and Sisters so Gregg was going solo and record the song anyway.
Apparently, and I'm not entirely certain, Butch Trucks was the big block which kept Queen Of Hearts off Brothers and Sisters. Butch wasn't a fan of Ramblin' Man either and years later regretted not fighting to keep it off the album.
Gregg Allman not long before he passed was asked in an interview about Queen of Hearts not making Brothers and Sisters and Gregg said " Oh that was a long time ago so I don't want to go there now but the person who fought against it, his initials are Butch Trucks".
Ouch I thought. Gregg and Butch had some irritating things between them too. It just didn't blowup like it did with Dickey.
I remember buying it and giving it away bc it basically sucked. Only a few redeeming songs does not an album make. But by this time they were copying themselves, not innovating
For all the dissension within a group that was obviously fracturing when this record came out, I WILL say that the first time I ever saw ABB was that same year, 1975, and Win, Lose or Draw had just been released. Same band of course, with Chuck Leavell and Lamar Williams. And how fitting, it was at The Forum in L.A., where Gregg was hiding out with Cher at the time. Despite all that mess, I thought THEY WERE GREAT. That's one thing that remained consistent about ABB during their incredible 45 year run, it didn't matter who had died, who was doing heroin, who was a drunk, who was in a bad relationship. When it was time to walk out on that stage, they would put all that to rest and just deliver the goods. They did that night. It was largely a jazz show, not a lot of vocals going on: Liz Reed, High Falls, Jessica and a significant amount of jamming. A show mostly dominated by the interplay between Dickey and Chuck. I remember how impressed I was with Chuck's piano playing. Gregg walked out front and played electric guitar on a couple of tunes. Throughout, Gregg looked very depressed, but he delivered the goods, and as always, his singing was very good. I don't think that Gregg looking depressed was really a big surprise. His relationship with Cher was fracturing, he was a heroin addict, and the Scooter Herring nightmare was either full blown at the time or at least waiting in the wings.
Some recycled BS here Rdee.
As usual. Same stuff over and over and over....
I think that he copy/pastes it (and many others) from a word file or such.
Every single time he refers to W L & D, it's spelled LOOSE or draw. Every single time. I just don't think you'd type anew and always misspell it.
"Is that a real poncho or is that a Sears poncho?"
@oldcoot: LOL!!!!
@robslob I saw some of the Win, Lose or Draw shows too and once they got on stage the playing was very good. Gregg was singing well and Dickey and Chuck were playing very well.
They did the Laid Back intro to Midnight Rider and from Highway Call they played Lone Time Gone. Paying tribute to the solo albums.
In 1989 they played In No Angel and Duane's tune to salute those solo albums I suppose. It was interesting seeing Warren and Dickey playing solos on I'm No Angel instead of Dan Toler.
Dickey avoided playing slide even on Statesboro Blues at the shows I saw and Bill Stewart played percussion between Jaimoe and Butch.
Also at the Charlotte show I was disappointed Dickey had a goldtop instead of the beautiful sunburst Les Paul with Zebra pickups he had been using in 1973 and 74. I found out Dickey switched to what later was dubbed "Goldie" because the sunburst with zebra pickups wouldn't stay in tune especially at outside shows.
Goldie as we know is a 1957 Goldtop Les Paul Dickey said years later he bought in a pawnshop in New York City in 1974 and it was his number one until 1994 when he switched to a Paul Reed Smith citing he was irritated at Gibson for ignoring him.
For all the dissension within a group that was obviously fracturing when this record came out, I WILL say that the first time I ever saw ABB was that same year, 1975, and Win, Lose or Draw had just been released. Same band of course, with Chuck Leavell and Lamar Williams. And how fitting, it was at The Forum in L.A., where Gregg was hiding out with Cher at the time. Despite all that mess, I thought THEY WERE GREAT. That's one thing that remained consistent about ABB during their incredible 45 year run, it didn't matter who had died, who was doing heroin, who was a drunk, who was in a bad relationship. When it was time to walk out on that stage, they would put all that to rest and just deliver the goods. They did that night. It was largely a jazz show, not a lot of vocals going on: Liz Reed, High Falls, Jessica and a significant amount of jamming. A show mostly dominated by the interplay between Dickey and Chuck. I remember how impressed I was with Chuck's piano playing. Gregg walked out front and played electric guitar on a couple of tunes. Throughout, Gregg looked very depressed, but he delivered the goods, and as always, his singing was very good. I don't think that Gregg looking depressed was really a big surprise. His relationship with Cher was fracturing, he was a heroin addict, and the Scooter Herring nightmare was either full blown at the time or at least waiting in the wings.
"When it was time to walk out on that stage, they would put all that to rest and just deliver the goods. They did that night." The road goes on forever...!
I like the record. Yes, we all know the history. But considering, it wasn’t bad. Especially now in hindsight. Title cute is great. I loved when they did it again in 2007? I’ll take this over the epic albums any day
In honor of WLD and Woody, here is "High Falls" from the March 1997 Beacon run.
This lineup only played "High Falls" a few times since March 1997 was the last with Warren & Woody, and the first time the band played "High Falls" since the Lamar/Chuck lineup (though Dickey had played it with Great Southern). While the band continued to play "High Falls" through out the Dickey/Jack, Dickey/Derek, and brief Derek/Jimmy lineups, it was only performed 3 times by the Derek/Warren lineup in March 2001.
50 years ago I was in College in Fullerton Ca. and had never been as excited about an album release as I was for this. At Tower records in Hollywood, (Mere doors down from The Roxy) I was one of the first to grab the vinyl and be at the cashier. I couldn't believe how my favorite band had let me down, hard pill to swallow. No matter how many times I gently placed the needle on the disc, it just became more disappointing. The prior year I had been at Winterland, The Cow Palace and The Forum and had been amazed, but this?....It was almost as if the band felt obligated to make this record, no soul, spirit, nothing. Stardom had arrived and their collective work ethic just evaporated. We had incredible floor seats for the Forum show in '75 and walked out wondering wtf had just happened....To this day I do not own this....
50 years ago I was in College in Fullerton Ca. and had never been as excited about an album release as I was for this. At Tower records in Hollywood, (Mere doors down from The Roxy) I was one of the first to grab the vinyl and be at the cashier. I couldn't believe how my favorite band had let me down, hard pill to swallow. No matter how many times I gently placed the needle on the disc, it just became more disappointing. The prior year I had been at Winterland, The Cow Palace and The Forum and had been amazed, but this?....It was almost as if the band felt obligated to make this record, no soul, spirit, nothing. Stardom had arrived and their collective work ethic just evaporated. We had incredible floor seats for the Forum show in '75 and walked out wondering wtf had just happened....To this day I do not own this....
You must have really not liked Brothers of the Road. That one made WLoD sound REAL good.
Everyone was surprised Brothers & Sisters was as stellar as it was after Eat a Peach and Duane's death. It was going to be really hard to follow and WLD is still a pretty solid album, band strife and patchwork recording sessions aside.
"Can't Lose" is one of Gregg's best 're-arrangements' and Dickey & Chuck are phenomenal. "Win, Lose, or Draw" is a solid Gregg ballad, and holds a little more esteem knowing it was written about Chank. Still and odd choice for the album title. "High Falls" is maybe my favorite Dickey instrumental, definitely his most underrated. "Les Brers", "High Falls", and "Pegasus" all follow a similar dreamy intro>bass/drums entrance>melody structure, I always thought of them as a trilogy of sorts.
"Nevertheless" is a solid Gregg tune. "Just Another Love Song" is an underrated gem of Dickey's, sweet and atypically melancholy.
"Sweet Mama" is top shelf filler, but filler nonetheless. I like Billy Joe Shaver, but his outlaw country songs don't really fit on an ABB album. "Sweet Mama" is just bland enough to almost fit. While the song is filler, the performances are better than the song deserves. I actually really like Dickey's swampy slide on it, but it's proof Dickey and Gregg were saving their best material for themselves during this period.
"Louisiana Lou" gets rightly dunked on. I would love to have heard the conversations when Dickey presented this tune to the members of the band who happened to be in the room (and Johnny Sandlin). I always assumed it was Dickey trying to write a Charlie Daniels dumb bar-brawl song but it's just too darn goofy with it's start/stop structure.
It doesn't help that the album cover is hideous, one of their worst. The saloon photo is so lazily done and the silhouettes concept is barely visible because the playing card pattern is so busy. You can barely even read the album title. The Band would approach their album cover for Islands with the same silhouettes concept much better a couple years later. It's a shame because the Allmans went on tour with some great WLD posters and promo art.
@porkchopbob I was huge Allman Brothers Band fan in 1975 and got bitten by the mushroom bug in 1970.
So I was at the record shops almost everyday looking for information on the Brothers and Sisters follow up.
And apparently Phil Walden wasn't happy the Brothers and Sisters follow up didn't come in 1974. But Gregg then Dickey just when the band explodes with commercial success far beyond the great success of Eat A Peach ( 2 million copies sold) with the exception of 18 ABB shows in 1974, Gregg then Dickey too were focused on solo albums and tours.
It was my understanding from what was leaking out that Phil Walden was pressing Dickey for another Ramblin' Man and I thought Dickey's delivery of that for Phil was Louisiana Lou and Three Card Monty John.
I also felt that was what Dickey came up with for Phil Walden because it was the first single with Sweet Mama in the other side.
Needless to say it failed to recreate Ramblin' Man with Pony Boy on side B
Finally I think Gregg was in Macon when Can't Lose What You Never Had and High Falls were recorded and that is probably why they are Brothers and Sisters quality.
Then Gregg split to Cher and LA leaving behind scratch tracks of Nevertheless and Win Lose or Draw. And apparently Gregg doesn't appear on Just Another Love Song, Louisiana Lou and Sweet Mama. On Brothers and Sisters Gregg is on everything except Pony Boy.
In honor of WLD and Woody, here is "High Falls" from the March 1997 Beacon run.
This lineup only played "High Falls" a few times since March 1997 was the last with Warren & Woody, and the first time the band played "High Falls" since the Lamar/Chuck lineup (though Dickey had played it with Great Southern). While the band continued to play "High Falls" through out the Dickey/Jack, Dickey/Derek, and brief Derek/Jimmy lineups, it was only performed 3 times by the Derek/Warren lineup in March 2001.
Is that Gregg with the piano solo? Never heard him stretch out like that before.
The Win, Lose or Draw period was a mess. On that tour, the Allman Brothers opened up the brand new Cincinnati Coliseum venue, first show there, and it was ok. Dickey was wearing a flippin' leisure suit that night. On top of Scooter, too much money, too many drugs, and Sea Level in the works, it was a mess. But I did and still love "High Falls." And... I loved Gregg's These Days album and Dickey's Highway Call album as well. By 1979, I dug the Enlightened Rogues album with Danny as some fire was back, but then enter Clive Davis. Ugh. After interviewing Warren 8 times now, the one thing him and I agree on was that it would be cool to get the Pattern Disruptive album remastered without the reverb. Bottom line is these cats gave us some rough patches, man, which is why I celebrate the first five albums.
Arista, Clive Davis, Keytars, Cher, Scooter Herring ... and Leisure suits - enough to make a lifelong ABB fan listen to Lynnyrd Skynnard ... or even learn how to spell their name correctly.
@rusty When Dickey talked Gregg into putting the band back together for a 20th anniversary tour and Dickey wanted Warren Haynes as the other guitarist, Warren told them they had lost their way after Chuck and Lamar left the band and they should go back to square one and recreate the original band for the 20th anniversary tour in 1989.
The several Win, Lose or Draw shows I saw had a number of hot moments where the band was playing at Brothers and Sisters level but to me not original band level.
Here is Can't Lose What You Never Had recorded live in Bakersfield, California in 1975.
@porkchopbob: It's very nice to hear someone stick up for the Win, Lose or Draw record because I agree with you 100%, there IS some great music on that disc. Also nice to hear praise for Just Another Love Song, a sweet and lovely tune by Dickey that has been completely overlooked in ABB history. And yes, Louisiana Lou and Three Card Monty John is most likely ABB's low point in recorded history, with the possible exception of the Arista years. Just a throwaway. That's the one I wish they had just left off of Win, Lose Or Draw.
The best analysis I’ve read about this record was from our late brother Randy Stevens (Buppalo). It was an OK album, but I couldn’t hear where Duane would have fit. Imho it was a half good album. Can’t Lose, High Falls and WLD were great the rest were somewhere between ok and filler.
A word about the arista albums. If you combine them you can almost come up with a good record, but those songs sound like they belong on solo records. Put these on a playlist
Mystery Woman
So Long
Madness of the West
Maybe We Can Go Back to Yesterday -probably my favorite Dickey non instrumental next to Blue Sky
Never Knew How Much I Needed You
@linus The problem that I (me, personally) had with the albums from the 80's (Arista etc.) was that the band just didn't sound like the Allman Brother's Band. The first time I heard, "Crazy Love" I thought - Wow! Skynnyrd finally hit the nail on the head!;)
In the world of pop music, so many bands and artists succumb to the will of producers and labels. They become homogenized - they start to sound like every other popular band on the RADIO. All of this (usually, I presume) to garner air time and sell a shit load of records. This is cool, I suppose. But when you make an effort to sound like everybody else ... you end up sounding like everybody else. Bands like the Allman Brothers should always embrace who and what they are. Sales might slack off temporarily, but the fans will be back - if they leave at all.
I took a lot of crap from the "hip and erudite music snobs" during the 80's. These listeners of post-punk skinny-tie bands opined that the Allman Brothers were nothing but a bunch of southern rednecks creating songs that lasted forever. A great deal of music from that era can now be found in dollar bins at thrift stores. Meanwhile, the music from the true glory days of the Allman Brothers has found resurgence and new fans.
Sorry if I didn't make my point. Not sure I had one, really. But long live Randy!
@linus That is a very astute observation. Beginning with Win, Lose or Draw though Brothers of the Road, some tracks, not all, did sound like material for a Gregg or Dickey solo album. Enlightened Rogues probably an exception.
But Gregg, Dickey and Butch all stated by the time they got to Brothers Of The Road they were under tremendous pressure to tweek their sound and ditch the cowboy hats etc and write songs that can be pop hits much like the Doobie Brothers did during the Michael MacDonald era.
The label TOLD the band who their next producer would be and he alone would control how the album sounded.
Supposedly the band decided not to record under that kind of requirement again and refused to finish their Arista contract and Davis shut the band out of any studio via their contract. Eventually Gregg took the Toler Brothers and left and the rest of the band morphed into Betts, Hall, Leavell and Trucks. Just before this happened Chuck Leavell had rejoined the Allman Brothers replacing Mike Lawler.
But some of the songs I really liked. This is my favorite from Brothers Of The Road.
The best analysis I’ve read about this record was from our late brother Randy Stevens (Buppalo). It was an OK album, but I couldn’t hear where Duane would have fit. Imho it was a half good album. Can’t Lose, High Falls and WLD were great the rest were somewhere between ok and filler.
A word about the arista albums. If you combine them you can almost come up with a good record, but those songs sound like they belong on solo records. Put these on a playlist
Mystery Woman
So Long
Madness of the West
Maybe We Can Go Back to Yesterday -probably my favorite Dickey non instrumental next to Blue Sky
Never Knew How Much I Needed You
That's an interesting angle, but I can totally hear Duane playing slide on "Can't Lose" or even fills on "Win, Lose, or Draw" like he did on "Please Call Home".
Sorry, but I can't get behind any of those songs listed except "Never Knew How Much". I always thought "Leavin'" was the closest the band came to its Enlightened Rogues sound on those Arista albums, and even that song is pretty forgettable. The Arista production is terrible, but the songs are just such a weird batch of bland. They were wise to take a recording break and hit the road playing the music they wanted to make until popular tastes came back their way. The cream rises to the top.
OK now I am really curious, what are the silhouettes that I am supposed to be able to see? I can't make anything out of them.....It doesn't help that the album cover is hideous, one of their worst. The saloon photo is so lazily done and the silhouettes concept is barely visible because the playing card pattern is so busy. ....
@kcjimmy If you unfold the album, the card pattern border is within the profile silhouettes of the 6 band members - 2 on top, 2 on the bottom, and 1 at each side.
The Band did it but it's a little more clear.
@porkchopbob Also in the picture on the album cover are two chairs leaning up against a table. That meant nothing to me when I bought the album which BTW did not have the bands name on the front. Just Win, Lose or Draw. The Allman Brothers Band was printed on the back.
I later read about the silhouettes and the two chairs leaning against an empty table. I didn't see or understand the silhouettes were there. It wasn't defined enough for my eye.
Also in the same article the empty chairs leaning against the table are for Duane Allman and Berry Oakley.
And it was admitted by a promo man from Capricorn the album cover was more about the inability to get all 6 band members together at the same time to get a picture.
I have a promotional book for the album which has a picture of all 6 standing together on it but perhaps that was taken just before the Win, Lose or Draw tour was to kick off I think in September 1975. By then the Allman Brothers Band had not played together for about a year.
@robertdee Coolest fact about that picture (for me): it was taken in Muhlenbrink's Saloon in the old Underground Atlanta district (is Underground Atlanta still a thing?). If you visited Muhlenbrink's in the early to mid-1970s, you very likely saw the legendary, Piano Red perform. Piano Red was an aging albino African American jazz/blues pianist. He played with Blind Willie McTell (among many other legendary southern blues artists). Most of the wild and crazy kids that frequented the area likely had no idea of the magnitude of talent that they were seeing (usually as they were scurrying past to see a more modern band in a neighboring club). When I first saw the cover for WLD, I checked to see if the club was acknowledged.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_Red
@rusty I visited Underground Atlanta several times in the 1970's plus I forgot the picture on the Win, Lose or Draw album was taken in that bar in underground Atlanta.
Thanks for refreshing my memory.
Piano Red was phenomenal. And I enjoyed the video.
