The worst thing that ever happened to that lineup was Clive Davis.
Who knows what coulda' been if he hadn't come into the picture...

I think it has less to do with their playing and more to do with the era that they were in the band. Lots of bands made bad decisions with their sound in the 80's.

I don't see the Tolers getting dismissed that much as I do the two Arista albums. I don't think it is personal thing against them.

For Frankie, he likely would never have been accepted since he replaced Jaimoe.

For Dan, while he was good, he would be at the bottom of the list of guitar players who were in the ABB. For what that's worth, it is a good list to be a the bottom of. Most out there could never crack the top 6 either.

I can't remember too many disparaging remarks for Dan. Great player with a great tone. I agree that Frankie tends to get looked over.

I think it has less to do with their playing and more to do with the era that they were in the band.

I have to agree. My first exposure to Dan was Dickey's band Great Southern back in 77'. I heard "Out to get me" on KMET, bought the record and then went to the "Live" broadcast from the Roxy in May of that year....Immediately impressed...I can recall when "Enlightened Rogues" was released and how disappointed I was because the album featured so little of him...

Both Danny & Frankie - very talented musicians. Saw them many times with the Brothers, in Gregg's band, and Frankie when he was drumming for MTB. Very nice guys also.

Dan Toler's playing while competent never really grabbed one's attention like Warren, Derek or Jack. Agreed he had to endure being stuck with subpar material.

Dan sounded so much like Dickey in the beginning it sounded like the Allmans cloning the Allmans.

The distinct 2 guitar sound didn't return until Warren arrived.

Dan sounded so much like Dickey in the beginning it sounded like the Allmans cloning the Allmans.

The distinct 2 guitar sound didn't return until Warren arrived.

Agree with this ---- their sound ( meaning both Tolers ) was barely distinguishable in that lineup.

I haven't heard them disparaged directly, just the material that the Allman Brothers happened to be producing at Arista in that period. There is no denying Dan Toler was a fine guitar player, though his style doesn't stand out to me. The Gregg Allman Band in the 1980s was probably the best showcase for him.

Dan sounded so much like Dickey in the beginning it sounded like the Allmans cloning the Allmans.

The distinct 2 guitar sound didn't return until Warren arrived.

Agree with this ---- their sound ( meaning both Tolers ) was barely distinguishable in that lineup.

They were 2 different lineups -- Frankie's playing I thought stood out well in the mix -- way different from Jaimoe's playing obviously but a great drummer w/best playing in Gregg's later bands

but yes, in that run of three mid-late 1970s albums -- DB&GS, Atl's Burng Down & ERogues -- Dan wasn't very distinguishable because of how identical he sounded to & played like Dickey -- then he got further buried in the mix when the extra musicians were added for the 2 Arista records

His Second Stint In DB&GS Tho -- Horse Of A Different Color -- Danny really ripped on that Strat -- his leads on BWIAB & the later ABB stuff -- real nice -- the 2-guitar sound you mentioned would've returned in 79 instead of 89 when Warren arrived -- & Did In That 2001-05 period w/Dickey

[Edited on 4/25/2016 by Stephen]

Agree with this ---- their sound ( meaning both Tolers ) was barely distinguishable in that lineup. They were 2 different lineups -- Frankie's playing I thought stood out well in the mix -- way different from Jaimoe's playing obviously but a great drummer w/best playing in Gregg's later bands

but yes, in that run of three mid-late 1970s albums -- DB&GS, Atl's Burng Down & ERogues -- Dan wasn't very distinguishable because of how identical he sounded to & played like Dickey

I agree with the opinion on "sound"...to me meaning "tone"......choice. I believe it was that a choice to "sound" that similar. Whose?...and why?

Style however, much different. Dan was way more mechanical, ran a lot of scales, to this ear...at times, just to play fast. But he understood melody and harmony as well. Dickey was just as recognizable in that period because of his reliance on old and "go-to" riffs. Listen to ER, very little Dan T. a nice taste of what he could do if given the chance on "Pegasus"......If you attended shows in those days one thing became more and more evident as the years went by, Dickey was louder and louder in the mix.......

Dan was a great guy. In 2002 when he was in Dickey's band several of us from the site went to BB King's in Times Square to see them for two nights. I think they did four shows in the two nights. Dan came out and shook hands and signed autographs. Couldn't have met a nicer guy.

Shortly thereafter, he put out a CD called "Band of Brothers" I think it was. Something like that. I ordered it directly from him in Florida. He took the time to write on an entire 8.5 x 11 inch paper a letter thanking me for buying the CD, hoping I liked it and he signed it "Your Friend Dan Toler". He had no clue who I was. What a classy thing to do.

And regarding his skill set, I think he and Dickey fit together like a glove. They really complimented each other.

God Rest His Soul. Great Guy !

[Edited on 4/25/2016 by Lee]

Dan Toler's playing while competent never really grabbed one's attention like Warren, Derek or Jack. Agreed he had to endure being stuck with subpar material.

Never grabbed anyone's attention like Warren? Danny was incredible for what he created with Dickey and he was an honest, authentic extremely talented guitarist of his own. There were so many nights he blew the roof off the SKY at those outside venues with Dickey inciting him and taking them both beyond what was thinkable!

[Edited on 4/28/2016 by gina]

I think we will have to agree to disagree on the Toler Brothers. Again, I think they were the unfortunate victims of highly marginal material and playing with the band during a period of decline. I have heard some good shows from 1979 but shows 1981-82 are practically unlistenable. When I say Jack, Derek, or Warren grabbed my attention, I can readily rattle off numerous songs where they were innovative. For example, Jack's playing on Dreams was always transfixing. I just never felt that way about the Tolers. This is of course subjective.

Danny was incredible during the Great Southern days because he had the freedom to express himself during the jams with Dickey. Dickey learned from Duane how to let it all out and grab others and have them join you. Yeah they had a set list, but the songs never sounded the same any two nights, mastery and musical magic because there was loose structure and nobody told them (well not very often) how long they could play. The shows were raw, real, and inspiring, the way music should be.

ABB Guitar Players;

Duane 1
Dickey 1a
Warren 2
Derek 3
Jack 4
Jimmy 5
Dan 6

Duane, Dickey, Warren, and Derek - great players. Warren gets the nod over Derek for the 5 great ABB albums in the 1990s. Dan, Jack, and Jimmy - very good players. I saw Jimmy twice in summer 2000 and enjoyed him, but missed Dickey. I saw Dan twice on the 1979 tour and thought that he was very good. I saw the ABB in 1980 & 81 and did not like the new Arista material. Dan was very very good in Gregg's band with more structured songs.
I feel lucky and I am thankful to have seen them all except for Duane.

ABB Guitar Players;

Duane 1
Dickey 1a
Warren 2
Derek 3
Jack 4
Jimmy 5
Dan 6

Duane, Dickey, Warren, and Derek - great players. Warren gets the nod over Derek for the 5 great ABB albums in the 1990s. Dan, Jack, and Jimmy - very good players. I saw Jimmy twice in summer 2000 and enjoyed him, but missed Dickey. I saw Dan twice on the 1979 tour and thought that he was very good. I saw the ABB in 1980 & 81 and did not like the new Arista material. Dan was very very good in Gregg's band with more structured songs.
I feel lucky and I am thankful to have seen them all except for Duane.

I think it's kind of hard to do a ranking when each brings different takes and styles to the band. Each is an accomplished guitar player. I won't get into specifics other than to say that it's really a subjective thing.

I think DDT's playing on Gregg's albums was fantastic!

To me Dan would have to rank above Jimmy as Jimmy was only in the band one year and on no albums.

It is not a good idea to rank the players as who is better technically than the other as all of them on a good night are fantastic but have different styles and Duane didn't believe in that and neither did Dickey. One guy's style was different than the other rather than looking at it like a tennis match where one out duels the other I think is what Duane said.

With that said, Dan to me, let Dickey's influence on his playing show too much. I didn't think it was that obvious when Great Southern first got together in 1976/7 but by the time we got to the first ABB reunion, it was hard to tell Dan from Dickey on the ABB albums on some solos. And in late 1980 when David Toler replaced Jaimoe, his vibe was similar to Butch Trucks. That and much of the new material from that period plus the eventual addition of Mike Lawler created a wedge between the legacy ABB sound and the then current ABB.

Butch Trucks said David Toler was a good drummer but too similar to his own style and that often when he (Butch) got ready to play something Toler was already doing it and it made him (Butch) regret he voted with Gregg and Dickey to sack Jaimoe.

When it happened, one of the better known roadies said Dickey got tired of Jaimoe missing parts of shows and entire shows and only playing on 3 songs on "Reach For The Sky" and talked Gregg and Butch into turning the gig over to Danny's brother. But in recent years I've come to understand that was likely just an excuse for public consumption. Dickey and Butch got mad about Candy Oakley butting into the bands personal business affairs on behalf of Jaimoe. Apparently during this period Gregg was not that interested in the personal affairs of the band as long as he was paid his share. But he went along with the vote of course as it took 3 votes to Jaimoe's 1 to remove Jaimoe just as in 2000 it took 3 votes to Dickey's 1 to put him off the stage. I'm been a fan for 46 years but I'm an outsider who did get to speak with roadies rather often and even members of the band from time to time and you could get more than one answer to some of your questions. I guess the most surprising news I even got from a band member was Dickey telling me that was everybody in the band singing back up on Revival on Idlewild South. It didn't say on the credits on the album so I figured it may be Dickey and Berry and was very surprised to be told it was everybody including Butch and Jaimoe. Red Dog later said they also tried it with the roadies singing with the band too but didn't use it. Then he said he may be wrong that they ever got around to actually recording with the roadies joining in with the band on those vocals. Then Butch said they also did that on the first album on "Leave My Blues At Home" and that is Berry Oakley cracking up after the six of them did the chant in that song with the lead guitars. Butch said that is him cracking up at the end of Pony Boy on Brothers and Sisters but nobody I ever spoke with knows who is talking faintly at the end of Blue Sky on Eat a Peach. I use to hear that on my headphones in 1972. Anybody's noticed it? They may be saying. "That good. Very good".

Clive Davis also had a major negative impact of the ABB during that period demanding they not wear their cowboy hats, modernize they image and come up with songs that fit the times, find a hit single for the next album and he put the band with a producer, John Ryan, who pushed the band hard on behalf of Davis for a modified sound and some hit singles and it became clear Davis was more interested in selling albums and making money than the legacy and reputation of the band. Can you imagine a record executive doing that to say B. B. King? Ryan and Davis chose "Straight From the Heart" as the hit single and were irritated when it didn't reach the top ten.

To avoid having to deal with Davis anymore and the fact that blues based rock was out of fashion, they backed the band out of the 80's and moved on to solo projects. Gregg took the Toler brothers and Dickey and Butch got Chuck and Jimmy Hall and put together BHLT and Jaimoe did farm work for some income and played in a jazz band in Atlanta.

I was encouraged when they played the few shows in 1986 and Jaimoe was back. The contrast between him and Butch was key to a big part of the ABB sound.

When they put the band back on the road in 1989 Warren Haynes was invited to join by Dickey rather than Danny as Dickey had been told Danny sounded too much like his style and the guy, Haynes, he had now was different and he agreed according to Red Dog about 1990. And Warren suggested they go back to square one and created new material that compliments the original sound of the band rather than an extension of what the band had become after Brothers and Sisters as it tried to fill the void of Duane and Berry and seemed to loose it's direction. Warren told me himself in the early 90's that as much as he absolutely loved the ABB in the early years, they lost him by the time they got to Win, Loose and Draw and they decided to dodge that period of the band and try to connect the current band (1989 version) to the original sound. Maybe that is why they avoided all the songs done after Brothers and Sisters? They did eventually do High Falls and I remember when they did that. It was about 1994 and they ask some of us hard core fans if we had the song on a CD so they could listen to it as even Dickey couldn't remember all the changes. I don't know who wanted to work it up but they were in Raleigh, North Carolina when that happened.

Of course the Brothers and Sisters lineup was fine to me if you realized that the band had to move on with a different take if they were determined not to replace Duane and have just one lead guitar. But when they went back to two guitars with Danny, as good as he was, it made Dickey the electric slide player which he didn't like doing and actually the band sounded more like a hybrid of the Gregg Allman Band and Great Southern for much of their shows after 1978.

As to the rankings of the guitar players of course Duane and Dickey have to be numbers 1A and 1B. Their playing on the original albums including Fillmore and East a Peach defined the ABB sound more than any thing. Of course it was the styles of all 6 originals which fit perfectly into one blend but I think one has to admit the twin guitars of Duane and Dickey were the icing that made that cake taste the way it did while admitting it would have been a little different without Berry or Gregg or different drummers than Butch and Jaimoe.

So I would say according to how they contributed to the ABB legacy and not considering which may be technically better than the other it would be:

1 Duane and Dickey.

2 Warren Haynes

3 Derek Trucks

4 Jack Pearson

5 Dan Toler

6 Jimmy Herring.

The Duane, Dickey, Gregg, Berry, Butch and Jaimoe lineup is the gold standard for the ABB. Any other line up would have to take a back seat to the original band.

To me the Warren/Dickey line up came closest to the original but I saw a couple of shows with Jack and Dickey and Derek and Dickey which was strong contenders for closing in on matching the original band almost.

The last lineup (Warren/Derek) may have been the best technically. Butch said so while admitted the original was the most creative. I think that sometimes until I listen to Fillmore or Eat a Peach and get my doubts. I'm saying "there is NO way Warren, Derek and Otiel could play this stuff better than the original lineup. It's just PERFECT! Anyway with only Gregg left on the front line the last lineup for this old time fan who first saw the band in 1970 sounded a little like a tribute band because with Dickey joining Duane and Berry as former members it suddenly became clear this band is a different lineup for sure now. Having the 2 original drummers still in it along with Gregg just didn't erase that "tribute band" feel I got a little bit of every darn time. Any other old fans feel that?

Kinda like seeing the Stones and only Mick and Charlie Watts are left.

Robertdee, thanks for adding historical context to this discussion. I think calling the last line up a tribute band is somewhat pejorative as they did not simply come out play old songs note for note like many other older acts. In fact, I felt the latest incarnation of the band thrived on spontaneity, much more so than the band in the 1990s that allowed things to stagnate. Plus, the band in 2000 brought Mtn Jam out of retirement and really took it to new levels throughtout the aughts. I know some dislike the cover songs and some were admittedly a stretch. But I always appreciated the effort to add new wrinkles.

RobertDee,

Thanks for your input. Dan Toler's contribution to the Enlightened Rogues album, particularly on Pegasus are noted. I was a huge fan of his playing in the Gregg Allman Band. I saw that band about 12 times. Dan smoked on Whipping Post.

One thing to keep in perspective, Duane, Dickey, Warren and Derek are all very special players. being ranked a good player behind them is a good thing.
Peace