Re-reading this discussion by sober daylight, I can see that I misread this post:

"DB picked a DB clone in DT, although he grew out of that over time..."

My bad. I thought that this was referring to Derek Trucks (DT) rather than Dan Toler (DT), when obviously it refers to Dan Toler. Sorry!!!!

The band didn't fold after Duane died, and it would not have folded had DB checked out first.

Though I personally prefer Gregg's early songwriting, by LAFE it is clear he was not coming up with new stuff. Without Betts' hit machine EAP wouldn't have happened, the ABB would not have broken through with Brothers and Sisters. Duane, not a songwriter and in high demand as a blazing talent on the ascent, would not have spent too much more time in a band on the chitlin circuit, with lesser guitar players skyrocketing all around him in the early 70s. He would almost surely have been compelled to move on to work with leading lights in the industry - possibly into production. Of course impossible to know, but interesting to speculate on. If we were placing betts I'd lay odds that "Southern Rock" never would have happened.

[Edited on 7/11/2019 by BrerRabbit]

Bad song choice for the hard core fans as far as a promo video prior to the release date . Maybe the business people who are responsible for generating sales for this Dickey release feel any ( good, bad or ugly) version of 'Ramblin Man' will help sales to the casual music fan. There are very few versions of Ramblin Man other than the Brothers and Sisters recorded version that I turn to when I'm looking to get my Dickey fix . Whether it was 1979 , 1989, 1999 or 2009 or 2018 I never had an appreciation for Ramblin Man. I'll take Blue Sky, Change My way of living, Elizabeth Reed , Nothing you can Do or any other tune Dickey has played on in year of his long career other than ' Ramblin Man'. I'm sure there is going to some real good playing on the release that all of us hard core fans will appreciate and maybe even listen to more than once.
I was at The Peach Fest show and The Dickey set worked real well for me . I'm sure the previous night in Staten Island worked well for those fans too.

So many things to say on this topic. I went to the Beacon show and have to say I had a great time. I thought the Devon Allman Band were great, and even enjoyed Marshall Tucker despite Doug Gray’s voice. I was thrilled to see Dickey and hear the songs even though I thought the performance was disappointing.

I could not watch the video. Dickey’s voice is shot and out of key and the playing is almost amateurish. Do I begrudge him for it? No, due to all of the great music he gave us in the past. But would I pay money to see him again? No. Just like I stopped going to see guys like Chuck Berry and B.B. King.

Thanks to Fretsman for posting the Dickey video from NYC in 2014. I attended the show which was the first time I saw Dickey solo since the original Great Southern days and loved the show. Dickey was still capable of doing great guitar runs here and I can’t wait to listen to the videos in the gym.

I remember a Dickey interview in 1977 taking about putting together his new band. I think it was Circus magazine. Dickey put out the word in 1976 after the ABB splintered over the Gregg/Scooter drug dealer and all the other problems. Dickey said he hired Dan because he was the only one auditioning who could play those twin leads like Duane. Dickey wasn't talking about guitar solos but where the two lead guitars played dual lead on those melody lines. Dickey talked about not liking electric slide but he would have to keep doing it because Toler doesnt play slide at all. That 1976 to 1977 band that recorded the first Great Southern album didnt last though. I think it was Chicago where there was a big fist fight with Dickey playing the next show with a big black eye and one of the drummers, the bass player and the keyboardist replaced. By the next year Dickey had come to see Gregg didnt sell out anybody so Dickey approached Gregg about putting the band together. Then the original four agreed to play at a Great Southern show in Central Park. Chuck and Lamar weren't available being busy with Sea Level.

Next the ABB played at the Capricorn picnic and after the set Chuck went to Phil Walden and said he and Lamar just talked and it felt uninspired like the last months the ABB did in late 1975 and 1976 so he and Lamar want to pass and keep going with Sea Level. Phil then asked Dickey and Gregg to play a set with the Central Park lineup which was the original four with Great Southern's bass and other lead guitar player. Later Gregg, Butch and eventually even Dickey agreed the chemistry wasn't right with that line up. So the plan in 1978 was to put the Brothers and Sisters lineup back together. When that didn't work out Phil Walden who was really wanted a new ABB album as soon as possible got the band down to Miami and Tom Dowd with the original four plus two from Great Southern. According to Butch and Gregg in his book they rushed it and didn't get the right lineup. And Butch, Gregg and even Dickey agreed they shouldn't have been involved with Phil Walden at that point.

When Dickey hired Warren Haynes for the Dickey Betts Band in 1987 he said Warren Haynes was the best he had run across to play twin lead with since he lost Duane Allman.

In 2002 when he hired Dan Toler again Dickey said for years he never considered Danny again because his style is too close to his. But when he ran into Danny recently, it was completely different. Toler was playing a Fender Strat not a Les Paul and using the whammy bar a lot which was a positive change with his own style and voice on his solos now.

Great stuff Blackey. Danny definitely added a new (Dangerous) dimension to his playing with latter day Great Southern . Generally The Brother's always did a great job at selecting musicians to play with . Danny's entrance into our world allowed Dickey to take his own playing to a new level whether it was with early Great Southern or The Brother's . The lack of inspiration from early Great Southern and The Brother's from 79-81 was the quality of the songwriting. Warren brought the whole package when he entered the equation. Slide, Electric, Vocals, Songwriting , Common Sense and Intelligence are all part of the Warren Haynes Package.

I'll take Blue Sky, Change My way of living, Elizabeth Reed , Nothing you can Do or any other tune Dickey has played on in year of his long career other than ' Ramblin Man'.

Your listing of Dickey songs got me thinking, I have always thought Back Where It All Begins is wonderful, and seems to fly under the radar when thinking about great Dickey tunes.

Pops42..On Enlightened Rogues Dickey is the right stereo side and Dan is left. Dan takes the 1st lead on Pegasus and Blind Love. All the other guitar leads are Dickey’s.
Personally I can tell them apart.

Too bad Chuck Leavell and Lamar Williams opted to stay with Sea Level after the Brothrrs and Sisters line up played at the 1978 Capricorn picnic. Enlighten Rogues would have been a different album. According to Gregg's book Gregg didnt care for David Goldflies on bass.

Too bad Chuck Leavell and Lamar Williams opted to stay with Sea Level after the Brothrrs and Sisters line up played at the 1978 Capricorn picnic. Enlighten Rogues would have been a different album. According to Gregg's book Gregg didnt care for David Goldflies on bass.

Goldflies was very different than Berry Oakley and Lamar, but I must say he was an absolute monster in Great Southern, and also in some of the ABB shows I saw. I don't know what Gregg's opposition was, i can only surmise that Goldflies' style was his concern

Goldflies was very different than Berry Oakley and Lamar, but I must say he was an absolute monster in Great Southern, and also in some of the ABB shows I saw. I don't know what Gregg's opposition was, i can only surmise that Goldflies' style was his concern

I recall Gregg said something about Goldflies being "paid by the note" or overplaying, something along those lines. I thought Gregg threw a lot of passive aggressive shade in his book, but that's what memoirs are for.

Rook was solid, but the late 1970s was a different time for music, even Phil Lesh played some disco-inspired bass. Goldflies still plays around south Florida, and even recently teamed up with Gregg & Duane's cousin (no I am not joking) - keyboardist and singer, Gary Allman. Though I think Goldflies is since sans Gary.

Here they are in action: https://www.pbs.org/video/allman-goldflies-band-ylw9b6/

Three guesses which one is Mr. G. Allman

On the left? Yes a couple of times in interviews and in the book Gregg said Goldflies "must have thought he was being paid by the note". Meaning to Gregg he over played or played too much.

But Dickey must have liked him. Dickey was a HUGE Berry Oakley fan and tried to get later bass players to think like Oakley. Gregg said Allen Woody got tired of Dickey doing that.

On the left? Yes a couple of times in interviews and in the book Gregg said Goldflies "must have thought he was being paid by the note". Meaning to Gregg he over played or played too much.

But Dickey must have liked him. Dickey was a HUGE Berry Oakley fan and tried to get later bass players to think like Oakley. Gregg said Allen Woody got tired of Dickey doing that.

I think that is also the reason he is a big fan of Pedro Arevalo's style

Pops42..On Enlightened Rogues Dickey is the right stereo side and Dan is left. Dan takes the 1st lead on Pegasus and Blind Love. All the other guitar leads are Dickey’s.
Personally I can tell them apart.

I think the first solo on Can’t Take it With You is Dan. I think.

Too bad Chuck Leavell and Lamar Williams opted to stay with Sea Level after the Brothrrs and Sisters line up played at the 1978 Capricorn picnic. Enlighten Rogues would have been a different album. According to Gregg's book Gregg didnt care for David Goldflies on bass.

I always find that lineup fascinating to listen to. I wonder why they never played Jelly Jelly live?

Jelly Jelly was the only one I never saw them play live. One Pony boy I saw was an I instrumental from that lineup. When they began writing about Brothers and Sisters in the magazines when it became the number one, best selling, album in America, Jelly Jelly was a hybrid of sorts. On that song the band got the music recorded the way they wanted it but Gregg recorded his own words and called it Early Morning Blues by Gregg Allman . I never read exactly why Gregg decided to re-record his vocals with words by Trade Martin and Billy Eckstine and took away his writing credit. A writing credit on an album that sold as many copies as Brothers and Sisters equaled a lot of money. Let me check Gregg's book.

That lineup did Lonetime Gone from Dickey's solo album but Chuck Leavell sang the first verse. I saw them do Whipping Post then straight into Mountain Jam a few times too.

"Without Betts' hit machine EAP wouldn't have happened, the ABB would not have broken through with Brothers and Sisters. Duane, not a songwriter and in high demand as a blazing talent on the ascent, would not have spent too much more time in a band on the chitlin circuit, with lesser guitar players skyrocketing all around him in the early 70s. He would almost surely have been compelled to move on to work with leading lights in the industry - possibly into production. Of course impossible to know, but interesting to speculate on. If we were placing betts I'd lay odds that "Southern Rock" never would have happened. "

You're saying that without a single song,ramblin man you'd lay odds "rock rock" wouldn't have happened?
I gotta disagree. Lotta music was brewing, all the southern rock gitar players were aware of Duane.

A more interesting question is what the ABB might have done in a post Dickey, still Duane universe. I don't at all see Duane moving to the studio. He may have started playing more with the jazz guys, or imagine Chuck and Duane.

GA had laid back fermenting, by LAFE. Ain't Wastin' Time, and Standback are strong. Melissa was a hit. Duane may have started writing instrumentals.

It may have served the band in the long run to have missed out on private jet tours.

Given Jimmy, Derek,Warren,Jack - there were other players out there.

Dickey was a tremendous talent, would he have had a platform and/or a hit without the ABB?

He made a strong contribution. He's not all all the whole show. He wasn't the same as Fogerty to CCR. He wasn't their whole show.

[Edited on 7/19/2019 by WaitinForRain]

Dickey was a tremendous talent, would he have had a platform and/or a hit without the ABB?

Good point, as well as your other points. Short answer to your question from me is no. And shows why Betts cranked so hard early 70s ABB, that was his rig, he couldn't start up something else. Lightning generally doesn't strike twice in the same place so safe bet that without Brothers and Sisters the ABB wouldn't have ever broken through to the mainstream.

Looks like we agree that Duane would have kept on truckin, studio or not. He was a journeyman, could have moved freely where he chose. For a band to keep rolling they gotta crank out product, and not rest on a big record. The ABB was not doing that after 1973 - so that is why Brothers and Sisters was their last big record.

Duane was one of those guitar players who could make any band sound good - but not a songwriter, so he would have worked with currently successful artists who were hiring the best. Doesn't really matter how good a guitar player you are, you cantt keep going, gotta work with singer songwriters.

[Edited on 7/18/2019 by BrerRabbit]

DB really didn't have hits after GS.
Gregg did. Gregg the songwriter without the loss of creative fire
from losing Duane? He might have managed 'all compositions by...'

Still if you look at DB and GA compositions before the drugs/fame/bullshit got them,
it's incredible.

Still. I think it's important in a real good band to realize that all those voices shine
especially in that context. The swinging rhythm section of the ABB is hard to replicate.
Most people hear the charging guitars upfront and think you get that by playing fast. Add 1 drummer
playing the typical beat and it's...HORRID. the ABB swings because there's a slightly laid back
backdrop that makes the guitars pop. Dynamics and swing, they really had it.

DB really didn't have hits after GS.

Do you mean after the first round of Great Southern in the 70s or the 2nd round in the 2000s? Because after the first round of Great Southern, Dickey's "Crazy Love", "Seven Turns", and "No One to Run With" all charted. After the second round of Great Southern, he was retired so...

[Edited on 7/19/2019 by porkchopbob]

Still if you look at DB and GA compositions before the drugs/fame/bull **** got them,
it's incredible.

Yeah this and what you wrote about private jet tours. You mentioned the flow of the rhythm section too, a unique signature that no other group ever had, strong elements that are often overlooked

DB really didn't have hits after GS.
Gregg did. Gregg the songwriter without the loss of creative fire
from losing Duane? He might have managed 'all compositions by...'

Still if you look at DB and GA compositions before the drugs/fame/bullshit got them,
it's incredible.

Still. I think it's important in a real good band to realize that all those voices shine
especially in that context. The swinging rhythm section of the ABB is hard to replicate.
Most people hear the charging guitars upfront and think you get that by playing fast. Add 1 drummer
playing the typical beat and it's...HORRID. the ABB swings because there's a slightly laid back
backdrop that makes the guitars pop. Dynamics and swing, they really had it.

Very true. Had Duane lived I really hope he would not have overdosed and died from hard drugs as this could have happened.

DB really didn't have hits after GS.
Gregg did. Gregg the songwriter without the loss of creative fire
from losing Duane? He might have managed 'all compositions by...'

Still if you look at DB and GA compositions before the drugs/fame/bullshit got them,
it's incredible.

Still. I think it's important in a real good band to realize that all those voices shine
especially in that context. The swinging rhythm section of the ABB is hard to replicate.
Most people hear the charging guitars upfront and think you get that by playing fast. Add 1 drummer
playing the typical beat and it's...HORRID. the ABB swings because there's a slightly laid back
backdrop that makes the guitars pop. Dynamics and swing, they really had it.

can you please explain dickey having not hits after great southern and Gregg did? what timeframe are you referring to?

assuming these chart placements are correct here are the listed charted singles I can find by the band and dickey and Gregg after great southern.

after the initial great southern run hit songs written/co-written by betts
-crazy love #29 pop hit
-can't take it with you #105 pop hit (I know not a hit but it charted and betts wrote it)
-angeline #58 pop hit
-straight from the heart #39 pop hit #11 rock hit
-good clean fun #1 rock hit
-seven turns #12 rock hit
-no one to run with #7 rock hit
-back where it all begins #29 rock hit

looking at Gregg allman here are hit songs he had after great southerns 70 run that he wrote/co-wrote
-anything goes #3 rock hit
-good clean fun #1 rock hit
-end of the line #2 rock hit
-firing line #37 rock hit

-i'm no angel-not written/co-written by Gregg
-slip away-not written/co-written by Gregg
-can't keep running not written/co-written by Gregg. WRITTEN BY MICHAEL BOLTON
-can't get over you-not written/co-written by Gregg
-it ain't over yet-not written/co-written by Gregg

*can you please explain dickey having not hits after great southern and Gregg did?
*what timeframe are you referring to?

I'm talking about on his own.
You're right I wasn't clear

*assuming these chart placements are correct

The world isn't flat, you're OK bro!

*here are the listed charted singles I can find by the band and dickey and Gregg after great southern.

*after the initial great southern run hit songs written/co-written by betts
*-crazy love #29 pop hit
*-can't take it with you #105 pop hit (I know not a hit but it charted and betts wrote it)
*-angeline #58 pop hit
*-straight from the heart #39 pop hit #11 rock hit
*-good clean fun #1 rock hit
*-seven turns #12 rock hit
*-no one to run with #7 rock hit
*-back where it all begins #29 rock hit

Yes you are right, Betts wrote more songs.
You provided an objective facts based response.

My thought -not stated clearly:
Gregg is on a lot more a 1-2-3
I don't see anything on the charts (if that is the measure) by solo DB
(Or DB and GS)

Good Clean Fun is not a hit
without the golden voice, and GA and DB are CO writers - surprised you didn't mention this

*looking at Gregg allman here are hit songs he had after great southerns 70 run that he wrote/co-wrote
*-anything goes #3 rock hit
*-good clean fun #1 rock hit
*-end of the line #2 rock hit
*-firing line #37 rock hit

I was indeed thinking of GA the presence more than GA the writer,
Here are some chart #s

*-i'm no angel-not written/co-written by Gregg
But it hit #1

*-slip away-not written/co-written by Gregg
#17

*-can't keep running not written/co-written by Gregg. WRITTEN BY MICHAEL BOLTON
#3
*-can't get over you-not written/co-written by Gregg
#3
*-it ain't over yet-not written/co-written by Gregg
#26

It's more than possible the creative for of DB was fed by the ABB gestalt
more than GS.... Better musicians/better connections but I have no way to know.

As a PS there are so many different billboard "charts"
I didn't list which ones

Peace out
An' don't forget to put the gravy on the meat.

(Typo corrected)

[Edited on 7/21/2019 by WaitinForRain]

*can you please explain dickey having not hits after great southern and Gregg did?
*what timeframe are you referring to?

I'm talking about on his own.
You're right I wasn't clear

*assuming these chart placements are correct

The world isn't flat, you're OK bro!

*here are the listed charted singles I can find by the band and dickey and Gregg after great southern.

*after the initial great southern run hit songs written/co-written by betts
*-crazy love #29 pop hit
*-can't take it with you #105 pop hit (I know not a hit but it charted and betts wrote it)
*-angeline #58 pop hit
*-straight from the heart #39 pop hit #11 rock hit
*-good clean fun #1 rock hit
*-seven turns #12 rock hit
*-no one to run with #7 rock hit
*-back where it all begins #29 rock hit

Yes you are right, Betts wrote more songs.
You provided an objective facts based response.

My thought -not stated clearly:
Gregg is on a lot more a 1-2-3
I don't see anything on the charts (if that is the measure) by solo DB
(Or DB and GS)

Good Clean Fun is not a hit
without the golden voice, and GA and DB are CO writers - surprised you didn't mention this

*looking at Gregg allman here are hit songs he had after great southerns 70 run that he wrote/co-wrote
*-anything goes #3 rock hit
*-good clean fun #1 rock hit
*-end of the line #2 rock hit
*-firing line #37 rock hit

I was indeed thinking of GA the presence more than GA the writer,
Here are some chart #s

*-i'm no angel-not written/co-written by Gregg
But it hit #1

*-slip away-not written/co-written by Gregg
#17

*-can't keep running not written/co-written by Gregg. WRITTEN BY MICHAEL BOLTON
#3
*-can't get over you-not written/co-written by Gregg
#3
*-it ain't over yet-not written/co-written by Gregg
#26

It's more than possible the creative for of DB was fed by the ABB gestalt
more than GS.... Better musicians/better connections but I have no way to know.

As a PS there are so many different billboard "charts"
I didn't list which ones

Peace out
An' don't forget to put the gravy on the meat.

(Typo corrected)

[Edited on 7/21/2019 by WaitinForRain]

i get gregg has solo hits in the 80's, because most of them were written by professional hit writers. i would hope pros were hired and he got hits. betts still wrote all of his solo material except the cover every now and again like "you can have her" and "atlantas burning down". its a lot easier though imo for gregg allman from the allman brothers to draw notice as a solo artist. his name already makes him a higher profile artist than betts

New Dickey live release is a real good listen. Ignore Dickey's vocals and just enjoy the music . I will return to it often over the next few weeks

Dicky Betts owes me nothing, but I could not finish this. I hope he was well paid, 'cause it surely adds nothing to his rich musical legacy.

"New Dickey live release is a real good listen."

It's shyte, mate.

But look on the bright side.
I thought Steve Stills was the only one who could sing off key all night, well past his prime,
and sell tickets for it. At least he still kills it on guitar.

GA and DBs final releases brought me to tears.
For opposite reasons :-p

Dicky Betts owes me nothing, but I could not finish this. I hope he was well paid, 'cause it surely adds nothing to his rich musical legacy.

if you want to see Dickey in his prime, watch this.

If you don't want to watch Wet Willie and Marshall Tucker play a few, go to 16:55 and watch an impromptu
back porch duet at Idlewild South.
There is a jam session with Elvin Bishop, Bonnie Bramlett, and Dickey doing "Just Can't Help Myself" at the end.

If you have the YouTube download app you can save it and make a dvd copy.

OH, and there are appearances by Sea Level and Stillwater.