Well at some point he gave up songwriting credits on all the 1984 songs other than "I'll Wait".
Well at some point he gave up songwriting credits on all the 1984 songs other than "I'll Wait".
Keep in mind that Mike was made essentially an employee sometime in the early to mid 80's and at that point no longer was given any writing credits moving forward. There has been some speculation that part of this arrangement may have included giving up some of the credits from "1984."
Hagar mentioned this "renegotiation" for Mike in his unpublished biography. This happened right around the time Billy Sheehan was first approached to join Van Halen and declined. Which is maybe why Mike took the deal. He knew he didn't write the songs and realized he was maybe out completely if he didn't agree to the offer. But, again, this was in the early 1980's and well before the 2004 tour. If true, he still owns rights to songs from the first five of the "six pack" which he most likely still makes some nice coin from...Not necessarily from cd, download, etc. sales, but from tour monies earned when those songs are played live.
Also, as part of the deal, he still was paid very handsome performance fees for every show he performed in on every tour after he was made an employee. Also mentioned in Hagar's unpublished bio was that Ray Daniels tried to lower this fee when he took over the band and Hagar claimed it was he who stepped in and demanded that Mike continue to receive the same fee or he was prepared to leave the band. According to Hagar, Daniels and the brothers then relented and he continued to earn that fee for what I assume was the tour supporting the album "Balance."
It couldn't have been the mid 80's when he stopped getting songwriting credits as he is still listed a writer on every original song on every album through Balance in 1995. Michael even got songwriting credits on the two new Roth songs on 1996's Best Of Vol. 1.
It had to be after Balance that he made that deal. The original liner notes on 1984 have Anthony as a songwriter. Also the notes on the Live Right Here Right Now album from 1993 still have Michael Anthony as a writer on Jump and Panama from 1984 and he still has full songwriting credits on every song on Balance.
It was sometime after Balance and before Best of Vol. 1 that they dropped the writing credits from the 1984 songs.
It couldn't have been the mid 80's when he stopped getting songwriting credits as he is still listed a writer on every original song on every album through Balance in 1995. Michael even got songwriting credits on the two new Roth songs on 1996's Best Of Vol. 1.
It had to be after Balance that he made that deal. The original liner notes on 1984 have Anthony as a songwriter. Also the notes on the Live Right Here Right Now album from 1993 still have Michael Anthony as a writer on Jump and Panama from 1984 and he still has full songwriting credits on every song on Balance.
It was sometime after Balance and before Best of Vol. 1 that they dropped the writing credits from the 1984 songs.
Where is it listed that he's a writer on these songs you mention? Keep in mind that simply because it's on the album doesn't necessarily mean he actually is granted writing credits or what are sometimes referred to as "points." If you have some other credible source, I'd be interested in seeing it. Not saying it isn't true, just want to point out that what's written on an album is meaningless.
For example, most record producers are given points or writing credit but it's rarely if ever listed on a album or cd. What's on an album is not necessarily accurate.
The changes to the writing credits, at least how it was written on the album/CD sleeves, occurred in 2004 when the reunion occurred and the Best of Both Worlds compilation was released.
On BOBW, Mikey is dropped as a credit for Jump and Panama, as well as the 3 new original tunes that are only credited to EVH, AVH, and SH. I don't have BOBW in front of me, but I am not certain Mikey was dropped from Hot for Teacher. I'll Wait did still list M.A. with songwriting credit, likely for the reasons speculated earlier about having to obtain Michael McDonald's consent to any changes. Panama and Jump also appear twice because they also included the Hagar-sung "live" versions, so my guess is that is the real reason why they focused on dropping M.A. from credit on these two songs. Low hanging fruit, as it were.
I don't have the Tokyo live album, but I understand all VH originals are credited simply to "Van Halen / David Lee Roth" without referencing individuals other than DLR. The only exception is "I'll Wait" which lists each individual member of Van Halen at the time and Michael McDonald. See above on reasoning.
On RHRN Mikey was given credit publicly on Panama and Jump and all the other VH originals (including solo spots).
On Best of Volume 1 (1996) M.A. was given co-credit on all originals too, incl. the 2 new tunes and Jump and Panama.
So something changed in 2004 for that reunion. That's when the changes were made to Panama and Jump, and possibly HFT (but not I'll Wait). I think it might have more to do with including those two songs twice on the same record, so sort of low-hanging fruit or bang for the buck by excluding Mikey on those two. So they basically cut Mikey out of credits on 7 songs - the 3 new songs and the 2 songs that were included twice each.
We don't know how Mikey is treated now on those classic 6-pack albums because Tokyo Dome masks it by just saying "Van Halen / DLR".
On Best of Volume 1 (1996) M.A. was given co-credit on all originals too, incl. the 2 new tunes and Jump and Panama.
I'm looking at Best Of Vol. 1 right now and it states that tracks 7 & 8 (Jump & Panama) were written by Edward Van Halen/Alex Van Halen/David Lee Roth. Michael Anthony's name is removed from it on that CD. It could be a later pressing of the CD, but I doubt they would change the liner notes even if it was produced later.
On BOBW, Mikey is dropped as a credit for Jump and Panama, as well as the 3 new original tunes that are only credited to EVH, AVH, and SH.
Actually on BOBW he is still listed as a songwriter on those two which is odd since he wasn't listed on their previous compilation.
It's not that VH's quality control on their compilations have been the best though.
All I know is that Mike owes us all for sitting through and barely surviving those bass solos.
The changes to the writing credits, at least how it was written on the album/CD sleeves, occurred in 2004 when the reunion occurred and the Best of Both Worlds compilation was released.
On BOBW, Mikey is dropped as a credit for Jump and Panama, as well as the 3 new original tunes that are only credited to EVH, AVH, and SH. I don't have BOBW in front of me, but I am not certain Mikey was dropped from Hot for Teacher. I'll Wait did still list M.A. with songwriting credit, likely for the reasons speculated earlier about having to obtain Michael McDonald's consent to any changes. Panama and Jump also appear twice because they also included the Hagar-sung "live" versions, so my guess is that is the real reason why they focused on dropping M.A. from credit on these two songs. Low hanging fruit, as it were.
I don't have the Tokyo live album, but I understand all VH originals are credited simply to "Van Halen / David Lee Roth" without referencing individuals other than DLR. The only exception is "I'll Wait" which lists each individual member of Van Halen at the time and Michael McDonald. See above on reasoning.
On RHRN Mikey was given credit publicly on Panama and Jump and all the other VH originals (including solo spots).
On Best of Volume 1 (1996) M.A. was given co-credit on all originals too, incl. the 2 new tunes and Jump and Panama.
So something changed in 2004 for that reunion. That's when the changes were made to Panama and Jump, and possibly HFT (but not I'll Wait). I think it might have more to do with including those two songs twice on the same record, so sort of low-hanging fruit or bang for the buck by excluding Mikey on those two. So they basically cut Mikey out of credits on 7 songs - the 3 new songs and the 2 songs that were included twice each.
We don't know how Mikey is treated now on those classic 6-pack albums because Tokyo Dome masks it by just saying "Van Halen / DLR".
my guess they aren't masking anything. van halen/DLR probably means everyone with a last name van halen plus DLR
I'm looking at Best Of Vol. 1 right now and it states that tracks 7 & 8 (Jump & Panama) were written by Edward Van Halen/Alex Van Halen/David Lee Roth. Michael Anthony's name is removed from it on that CD. It could be a later pressing of the CD, but I doubt they would change the liner notes even if it was produced later.
So much for my theory, or my memory for that matter. I pulled out BOV1, which I remember purchasing the day it was released, and sure enough no M.A. for those 2 tracks. Guess I confused myself with BOBW and the rumored 2004 negotiations.
It's not that VH's quality control on their compilations have been the best though.
True dat. Although, looking back at BOV1 the liner notes were done well with all their records on it. And to me it made much more sense to do the songs chronologically than that painfully awkward alternating Hagar/DLR in random order on BOBW. Except for the 2 new DLR songs and Humans Being from Twister, everything else on BOV1 was also on BOBW. They should've just released a single disc BOV2 with the all white cover/guitar that was originally planned and just done it again chronologically with all the songs not included on BOV1. Then had 2 the new Hagar songs on the end just like they did with DLR on BOV1 (and just got rid of Up For Breakfast). A single disc BOV2 would've likely sold better than a double-disc compilation too.
BOV1 was the better compilation, but it still was released with an odd version of Runnin' With The Devil that wasn't the version from the first album.
BOBW was horribly sequenced. VH with Roth and VH with Hagar are pretty much two different bands and that compilation had not logical flow to it. If you are going to do a two disc best of and cover both eras then just do one disc for each singer. However egos would get in the way as the Roth songs were shorter so you could have more of his songs on the set.
Up for Breakfast has some of the worst lyrics ever laid down by a major artist.
Also, the live versions of Jump, Panama & Ain't Talkin' Bout Love with Sammy singing added to the BOBW just robbed people of a couple of extra songs.
[Edited on 7/5/2015 by WarEagleRK]
Again, simply because it's in liner notes, written on an album cover, etc. doesn't make it so. It would be interesting to actually find the contracts or legal documents that clarify what Mike still owns.
I am glad to know he still makes some coin from his time in Van Halen. Sort of a nice severance package for dealing with Ed and Al for 25 years.
One thing I'll mention about BOV1, the best part of the album were the two new Roth tunes and what I think may be one of the best Van Hagar tunes , "Humans Being." I love the extended version of this tune. Great riff and solo from EVH and kind of cool lyrics from Hagar...You can feel the tension between EVH and Hagar in this song.
Again, simply because it's in liner notes, written on an album cover, etc. doesn't make it so. It would be interesting to actually find the contracts or legal documents that clarify what Mike still owns.
Understood and agreed. But I do think the changes in the liner notes to the credits of the same songs is telling, to some degree.
Also agree with your comments about BOV1 and the 3 post-Balance tunes. Between those and VH3, with good production and a producer, the band could've made one helluva great album with DLR or Hagar singing. (Nothing against Cherone, but it was a bad fit and I think the tunes EVH had written were not in Cherone's best singing range.)
Below is the Seattle setlist from last night. As much as have M.A. in the band would be awesome, I don't think there would be a setlist like this without Wolfgang in the band (putting aside for a moment the issue that there would be no EVH in VH without Wolfgang in the band).
July 5, 2015
White River Amphitheatre
Auburn, WA
1. Light Up the Sky
2. Runnin' With the Devil
3. Romeo Delight
4. Everybody Wants Some!!
5. Drop Dead Legs
6. Feel Your Love Tonight
7. Somebody Get Me a Doctor
8. She's the Woman
9. Chinatown
10. I'll Wait
11. Drum Solo
12. Little Guitars
13. Dance the Night Away
14. Beautiful Girls
15. Women in Love...
16. Hot for Teacher
17. In a Simple Rhyme > Growth
18. "Dirty Movies"
19. Ice Cream Man
20. Unchained
21. Ain't Talkin' 'Bout Love
22. Guitar Solo
23. You Really Got Me
24. Panama
25. Jump
Understood and agreed. But I do think the changes in the liner notes to the credits of the same songs is telling, to some degree.
Agreed, why change them at all on the album unless you want to publically show that changes were made?
Also agree with your comments about BOV1 and the 3 post-Balance tunes. Between those and VH3, with good production and a producer, the band could've made one helluva great album with DLR or Hagar singing. (Nothing against Cherone, but it was a bad fit and I think the tunes EVH had written were not in Cherone's best singing range.)
Humans Being may be my favorite Van Hagar song. I would have liked to have seen what Hagar could have done with the songs on VH3. The music almost sounds like it was written for Hagar's voice but just given to Cherone to work with.
However, I do remember them saying that for the first time ever on VH3 there were songs where the lyrics were written first and the music was written afterward. Maybe Cherone gave them some lyrics and they just applied them to songs that were already partially written. VH3 was horribly produced and likely could have been a good album if someone from the outside was allowed to sit in on the sessions instead of EVH and for some ungodly reason Mike Post.
The set list from last night looks killer, hopefully Roth give it his best.
Surprisingly big focus on VH2, in my view.
Understood and agreed. But I do think the changes in the liner notes to the credits of the same songs is telling, to some degree.
Agreed, why change them at all on the album unless you want to publically show that changes were made?
Also agree with your comments about BOV1 and the 3 post-Balance tunes. Between those and VH3, with good production and a producer, the band could've made one helluva great album with DLR or Hagar singing. (Nothing against Cherone, but it was a bad fit and I think the tunes EVH had written were not in Cherone's best singing range.)
Humans Being may be my favorite Van Hagar song. I would have liked to have seen what Hagar could have done with the songs on VH3. The music almost sounds like it was written for Hagar's voice but just given to Cherone to work with.
However, I do remember them saying that for the first time ever on VH3 there were songs where the lyrics were written first and the music was written afterward. Maybe Cherone gave them some lyrics and they just applied them to songs that were already partially written. VH3 was horribly produced and likely could have been a good album if someone from the outside was allowed to sit in on the sessions instead of EVH and for some ungodly reason Mike Post.
The set list from last night looks killer, hopefully Roth give it his best.
i always said that about VH3. it has 6-7 really top notch songs ruined by production. i agree the music sounds like its in the key or hagars register not cherone
I'm fairly sure that in order to be included on the 2004 tour Michael Anthony had to sign away several rights including songwriting credits on 1984.
I wonder if Michael Anthony was kept on the songwriting credits on "I'll Wait" because you have to get all of the songwriters to sign off on making adjustments? I'll Wait has Michael McDonald as a co-writer as well as the band, maybe they didn't want to contact him to make the change to not sound super retroactively petty to an outsider?
Mike stated in an interview some years ago that he did not sell or give up his songwriting credits to the VH brothers in order to participate in the 2004 reunion. What he did relinquish was his ownership stake in the corporation known as "Van Halen." Meaning he has no ownership stake and has no claim to the name Van Halen or the assets owned by said corporation. This is entirely separate from his songwriting credits which he still owns to this day.
He specifically stated in this interview that he would never give up his songwriting credits. I assume that means that's where the real revenue potential lies with his association with Van Halen. I would also assume that he gets paid some monies whenever VH tours and plays any songs he has writing credits for. Meaning he probably got a nice chunk of change from the last two multi million dollar total gross tours with Roth.
That is to say, Mike still makes a shit load of money from songs he didn't write whenever Van Halen performs them while on tour, into perpetuity. This, I suspect, is what really pisses EVH off....
[Edited on 7/2/2015 by Chain]
It would be interesting to see how much money he does make off those tunes being performed.
Everyone has a plan, till you get punched in the face,
Interesting comments about VH3....I've always enjoyed that album despite its shitty production and Cherone's strained voice. He's a great talent and a very nice guy that simply didn't fit at that particular time. If it had say the production quality of "Humans Being," that album would have been infinitely better.
Glen Ballard produced "Humans Being", correct? What a great sound on that track which should have been carried over to VH3.
Interesting comments about VH3....I've always enjoyed that album despite its shitty production and Cherone's strained voice. He's a great talent and a very nice guy that simply didn't fit at that particular time. If it had say the production quality of "Humans Being," that album would have been infinitely better.
Glen Ballard produced "Humans Being", correct? What a great sound on that track which should have been carried over to VH3.
humans being was a great tune. btw the 3 new hagar tunes on the best of both worlds compilation, i heard the music to 2 of the 3 songs was written for the 2nd cherone album
Interesting comments about VH3....I've always enjoyed that album despite its shitty production and Cherone's strained voice. He's a great talent and a very nice guy that simply didn't fit at that particular time. If it had say the production quality of "Humans Being," that album would have been infinitely better.
Glen Ballard produced "Humans Being", correct? What a great sound on that track which should have been carried over to VH3.
humans being was a great tune. btw the 3 new hagar tunes on the best of both worlds compilation, i heard the music to 2 of the 3 songs was written for the 2nd cherone album
Hmm. Never heard that....I actually liked the music on those songs but boy, the lyrics were horrible.
Interesting comments about VH3....I've always enjoyed that album despite its shitty production and Cherone's strained voice. He's a great talent and a very nice guy that simply didn't fit at that particular time. If it had say the production quality of "Humans Being," that album would have been infinitely better.
Glen Ballard produced "Humans Being", correct? What a great sound on that track which should have been carried over to VH3.
humans being was a great tune. btw the 3 new hagar tunes on the best of both worlds compilation, i heard the music to 2 of the 3 songs was written for the 2nd cherone album
Hmm. Never heard that....I actually liked the music on those songs but boy, the lyrics were horrible.
its a claim by 2 people on the steve hoffman forum. 2 tracks were from then and the 3rd dated back to sometime before cherone joined and none of the music was new at all
its a claim by 2 people on the steve hoffman forum. 2 tracks were from then and the 3rd dated back to sometime before cherone joined and none of the music was new at all
Wouldn't be surprising at all. There's a history or pattern there of EVH using old songs he had written much earlier, despite whatever illusions EVH likes to make publicly about his prolific songwriting and "10 albums worth of songs" on tape at 5150 studios. And nothing really wrong with that.
A few of the songs on 5150 they had been working on with DLR for the follow-up to 1984 before that relationship blew apart. Can't remember which ones, but I think Summer Nights and Good Enough were among them. The piano bit to "Right Now" dated back to the early 1980s and Top of the World was originally intended as a follow-on to Jump for the 1984 record, and those didn't make it to record until 1991.
The 2 new BOV1 tunes were leftovers from Balance, I think. MWM may've been written as a follow-up for Balance before SH left, but CGTSNM was definitely a leftover from the Balance sessions and EVH has said as much in interviews at the time. SH even eventually got a writing credit for the vocal melody that they used on it with DLR singing (after SH threatened to sue over it).
Not sure if Hagar has ever confirmed any of the VH3 tunes were from his time.
So yeah, makes sense that those 3 tunes on BOBW were leftovers from VH3 or the planned/aborted VH3 follow-up, or even older. I have some vague recollection of Hagar saying in interviews or his book that he had to go through lots of old studio tapes to find even 3 tunes to do for BOBW given EVH's condition at the time, when EVH wasn't as "capable" of coming up with new stuff in the moment. (And that EVH was impossible to work with so he did quick vocals in the studio when EVH wasn't around and didn't spend much time on it. The terrible lyrics support that premise. Lol.)
Heck, even on the classic 6 pack records they were still pulling 1-2 tunes out of the original cache of demos as late as 1984 and Diver Down. And that was when records were only 30-40 minutes long, so he was only writing 25-35 minutes worth of new material for each record, if that. So it's not like EVH was ever very prolific except pre-1978 when the first ~30 or so tunes were written.
Fun stuff. Love this thread, and the other one on opening night setlist in Seattle.
