*speaking of Atlanta, for a team that is one of the oldest in the league, I have barely been aware of them since they traded Dominique in the middle of one of his best seasons back in '93. That's karma.

Hoping for Golden State as they are a fun team to watch. So Golden State in 6

FIRST.. rooting strong for Golden State and dem Warriors.. anti Lebron...........hey he dont play for theHeat anymore....

The best series this year was 1st round..............Clippers vs Spurs..............

Passing comment last night DWIGHT HOWARD...........ass hole.... how he wasnt gone two games ago for his antics, but last nite late bs.... happened years ago with Horry......injuring a player who was movin on to next round out of pure frustation.......................
Go Steph..................................

I'm in the Bay area and basketball is my #1 game so of course, I'm in heaven. It's been a 40 year wait, and I've lived here for 30 of those.

Harden laid a massive egg last night.

You got THAT right. 2-11 from the field, and set a playoff record with 13 turnovers in one game. Some thought Harden should have won the MVP. I would hope that after this series everyone knows that the MVP is the same guy who won the MVP. I'll be honest though and say that there were times in this series that Harden was simply unstoppable. He's a GREAT player. But Curry is even better.

Passing comment last night DWIGHT HOWARD...........ass hole.... how he wasnt gone two games ago for his antics, but last nite late bs

Agreed 100%!! Last night's forearm to Igoudala's neck should have been a flagrant II and an ejection. They didn't even call a flagrant I!!! UNBELIEVABLE. His forearm hit to Bogut's face in the previous game was borderline because Bogut pushed him really hard right before it. But the hit on Igoudala last night should have been an obvious ejection.

<<<>>> I predict the Cavs will try and be very physical with the Warriors...........it's their only chance, because they will NOT be able to run with them (who can?) Look for Kendrick Perkins to play more and make a lot of hard fouls. They'll try and disrupt us that way, it's their only chance. In the end, despite LeBron, I don't think Cleveland has enough to keep up. Warriors in six. If Cleveland had a healthy Kevin Love, I'd probably rate this series a draw.

[Edited on 5/28/2015 by robslob]

I actually went to Game 2 of the Hawks-Cavs series, which was a disgraceful display by Atlanta. I am not sure they are just "a year away." This year's playoffs give me serious concerns about Coach Budenholtzer. He did a good job getting the team this far, but he looked absolutely overmatched in the playoffs and I'm not sure he is all that. On talk radio here in Atlanta they were comparing him to recently fired Falcons coach Mike Smith. Good in the regular season, chokes under pressure in the playoffs.

Frankly, I think Cleveland is better off without Kevin Love. He never really fit in with the team and I think he will be gone next year. They don't seem to be missing him.

I've always thought this was Golden State's year, and we haven't seen a pure shooter like Curry in a long time. He is a truly exciting player who gives 100% all the time. You have to respect his talent, and Klay Thompson and the rest of the team are very solid. Steve Kerr seems like a good coach too, I would trade Budenholtzer for him in a heartbeat.

However, Lebron has gotten Cleveland playing WAY over their heads right now. I expect this to be a very close series, going 6 or 7 games for sure. If I had to pick, I would say Cavs in 7. If they can somehow pull this off, it will be Lebron's greatest achievement and nobody will be able to deny his greatness.

Oh, and any team with Dwight Howard AND Josh Smith is doomed to failure. Even "good Harden" can't overcome that much bad mojo, much less the guy wearing Harden's jersey last night.

I've never thought much of Dwight Howard either - he's a decent center, but he's never going to anchor a team. His time in LA proved he is a big sour puss, which is why his chippiness at crunch time turns into choke time. Getting your team in a position to win is one thing, hindering that at the end of the game is another. This is why most big men aren't on the floor in the last 6 minutes of a game: Shaq NEEDED Kobe and Wade; Wilt NEEDED West and Greer.

[Edited on 5/28/2015 by porkchopbob]

I actually went to Game 2 of the Hawks-Cavs series, which was a disgraceful display by Atlanta. I am not sure they are just "a year away." This year's playoffs give me serious concerns about Coach Budenholtzer.

Well, I was being nice knowing there are a lot of GA sports fans around here. I still can't name a single player on the Hawks and kept forgetting they were the number 1 seed in the East. Solid season aside, they were only the #1 seed in the East because the bottom dropped out on the Heat, the Cavs were slow to gain momentum though out the season, and apparently Tom Thibodeau. Just move the Grizzlies to the East already.

people dogging the hawks, they had 4 starters hurt this series. 1 never played, 1 played the entire series with a gimp knee, korver got hurt game 2 and missed the rest of the series and horford had knee issues

people dogging the hawks, they had 4 starters hurt this series. 1 never played, 1 played the entire series with a gimp knee, korver got hurt game 2 and missed the rest of the series and horford had knee issues

Gotta agree.

Also saying coach bud choked in the playoffs may be over the top.

given the injuries,given it was their 1rst year with this unit, showing great regular season improvement and like many very good teams finding a player or 2 to bolster the roster would be logical next move.In addition,many great teams are built with patience and strong player development.Coach Bud,a product of Pop's system merits much more of a chance at this point.He too will grow.

As for Love I agree...they are fine without him.He'll be fine with another team.

As for this series I gotta say its gonna be fun..classic east vs. west.Lebron has already has a mega year...this would put it over the top...but I gotta say,I love the shooting,the running on GS....fun series indeed!

[Edited on 5/29/2015 by dadof2]

I've never thought much of Dwight Howard either - he's a decent center, but he's never going to anchor a team. His time in LA proved he is a big sour puss, which is why his chippiness at crunch time turns into choke time. Getting your team in a position to win is one thing, hindering that at the end of the game is another. This is why most big men aren't on the floor in the last 6 minutes of a game: Shaq NEEDED Kobe and Wade; Wilt NEEDED West and Greer.

[Edited on 5/28/2015 by porkchopbob]

Agree on howard.

Wilt,Russell,chamberlain,Thurmond,reed,parish,Cartwright,Hakeem,Jabbar, Cowens,Mikan,Laimbeer,both Gasols,and many many more were and are on the floor in the last 6 minutes.

The negative comment earlier about Josh Smith may be historically true but untrue about his work with the Rockets in general and in the playoffs in particular.He played well.Not perfect,but much better than some of his out of control work in Sacramento.

Wilt,Russell,chamberlain,Thurmond,reed,parish,Cartwright,Hakeem,Jabbar, Cowens,Mikan,Laimbeer,both Gasols,and many many more were and are on the floor in the last 6 minutes.

Well, I wasn't talking outside of the current season. I think the game has changed a bit since George Mikan (and how does Cartwright end up on that list? Also, "Wilt" and "Chamberlain" are the same person). Of course in the previous eras, the best guys were all on the floor down the stretch, especially before 3 pointers came into play in the late 70s, and "hack-a-Shaq" became a strategy on centers to stop the clock in the final minutes 15 years ago.

A lot of big, starting centers these days aren't on the floor in the final minutes game these days, though it depends on the lineup and the match ups, of course. The game is much faster and there just aren't many dominant big men outside of Duncan. A center's free throw shooting becomes a liability and a lot of teams like to push the ball up the floor, while a lot of big centers clog up the lane. We haven't seen an Hakeem who could move up and down the floor and nail FTs in years. A lot of teams go with smaller, faster lineups because PFs can move faster and rebound.

My point is, Centers can be an incredible asset to a team, but it has rarely been the position you can successfully build a team around or depend on in the final minutes to win games. Chamberlain, Kareem, Howard, Shaq, Parrish, Moses, were all great but all traded or let walk at some point in their prime (and Hakeem caused Ralph Sampson to take a hike). Kobe, Jordan, LeBron, Bird, Magic, Havlicek, - those guys never got traded. Jordan and Kobe both won championships with centers that did little to nothing on other teams; but Shaq, Moses, Kareem, Wilt, all needed Kobe/Wade, Dr. J, Magic/Big O, Greer/West.

Wilt,Russell,chamberlain,Thurmond,reed,parish,Cartwright,Hakeem,Jabbar, Cowens,Mikan,Laimbeer,both Gasols,and many many more were and are on the floor in the last 6 minutes.

Well, I wasn't talking outside of the current season. I think the game has changed a bit since George Mikan (and how does Cartwright end up on that list? Also, "Wilt" and "Chamberlain" are the same person). Of course in the previous eras, the best guys were all on the floor down the stretch, especially before 3 pointers came into play in the late 70s, and "hack-a-Shaq" became a strategy on centers to stop the clock in the final minutes 15 years ago.

A lot of big, starting centers these days aren't on the floor in the final minutes game these days, though it depends on the lineup and the match ups, of course. The game is much faster and there just aren't many dominant big men outside of Duncan. A center's free throw shooting becomes a liability and a lot of teams like to push the ball up the floor, while a lot of big centers clog up the lane. We haven't seen an Hakeem who could move up and down the floor and nail FTs in years. A lot of teams go with smaller, faster lineups because PFs can move faster and rebound.

My point is, Centers can be an incredible asset to a team, but it has rarely been the position you can successfully build a team around or depend on in the final minutes to win games. Chamberlain, Kareem, Howard, Shaq, Parrish, Moses, were all great but all traded or let walk at some point in their prime (and Hakeem caused Ralph Sampson to take a hike). Kobe, Jordan, LeBron, Bird, Magic, Havlicek, - those guys never got traded. Jordan and Kobe both won championships with centers that did little to nothing on other teams; but Shaq, Moses, Kareem, Wilt, all needed Kobe/Wade, Dr. J, Magic/Big O, Greer/West.

what center that did nothing on other teams did kobe win a ring with? all star shaq who a ring after kobe or all star pau gasol?

also its silly to say traded or let walk. most of the guys you mentioned it was due to other teams able to make bigger offers. parrish was traded because the warriors saw little value in him. the centers jordan played with were brought in for rebound and defense only. phil jackson had a system and thats what he required during those runs

PCB:

All I can say is you are correct,as you said,"well I wasn't talking outside of the current season"-I would add,as the game has evolved over the past 3-10 years.

Then you proceed to cover the history of the position.

You do have interesting opinions and understanding of the position as it has evolved through the years.Albeit quite inaccurate.

[Edited on 5/29/2015 by dadof2]

people dogging the hawks, they had 4 starters hurt this series. 1 never played, 1 played the entire series with a gimp knee, korver got hurt game 2 and missed the rest of the series and horford had knee issues

Gotta agree.

Also saying coach bud choked in the playoffs may be over the top.

given the injuries,given it was their 1rst year with this unit, showing great regular season improvement and like many very good teams finding a player or 2 to bolster the roster would be logical next move.In addition,many great teams are built with patience and strong player development.Coach Bud,a product of Pop's system merits much more of a chance at this point.He too will grow.

As for Love I agree...they are fine without him.He'll be fine with another team.

As for this series I gotta say its gonna be fun..classic east vs. west.Lebron has already has a mega year...this would put it over the top...but I gotta say,I love the shooting,the running on GS....fun series indeed!

[Edited on 5/29/2015 by dadof2]

i know people will talk about the cavs injuries and they still won but the cavs were about great playesr making plays and atlanta was about team work. without the guys on the team the system fell apart

PCB:

All I can say is you are correct,as you said,"well I wasn't talking outside of the current season"-I would add,as the game has evolved over the past 3-10 years.

Then you proceed to cover the history of the position.

[Edited on 5/29/2015 by dadof2]

Only because you brought up the history of the position. I was agreeing with you that in the past, centers were more invaluable at the end of the game, especially guys like Unseld/Hayes, Walton, Cowens, etc. and certainly Mikan since he played 3 years after the invention of the jump shot.

[Edited on 5/29/2015 by porkchopbob]

what center that did nothing on other teams did kobe win a ring with? all star shaq who a ring after kobe or all star pau gasol?

I mentioned that one of the greatest centers, Shaq, needed Kobe and Wade to win championships pretty clearly. As dominant as he was, he couldn't do it without another strong scoring threat in Kobe. Without Shaq, Kobe won a championship in 2009 with Andrew Bynum at center, who went on to become a couch shortly after (Gasol was the PF). Bill Cartwright, Will Perdue, Luc Longley, and Bill Wennington peaked beyond themselves while playing next to Jordan.

My point is that SG and Forwards are typically the cornerstones of a quality basketball team. It is rare that a center is the pillar without an equally strong back court option (how many college teams have quality centers?). Bill Russell is probably the greatest player in the history of the league but he was an undersized center who averaged 15 points a game - the offense still went through his teammates first. Wilt didn't win anything until he teamed with Greer after getting TRADED to the 76ers and then got TRADED to the Lakers and teamed with West. The 1986 Houston Rockets lost 4-2 to the Celtics even though the Rockets had 2 HOF centers.

Because a lot of teams these days go small ball to score quickly in the final minutes, and centers are often FT liabilities, coaches take them in and out at the end of games in a way guys like Curry and Harden don't.

what center that did nothing on other teams did kobe win a ring with? all star shaq who a ring after kobe or all star pau gasol?

I mentioned that one of the greatest centers, Shaq, needed Kobe and Wade to win championships pretty clearly. As dominant as he was, he couldn't do it without another strong scoring threat in Kobe. Without Shaq, Kobe won a championship in 2009 with Andrew Bynum at center, who went on to become a couch shortly after (Gasol was the PF). Bill Cartwright, Will Perdue, Luc Longley, and Bill Wennington peaked beyond themselves while playing next to Jordan.

My point is that SG and Forwards are typically the cornerstones of a quality basketball team. It is rare that a center is the pillar without an equally strong back court option (how many college teams have quality centers?). Bill Russell is probably the greatest player in the history of the league but he was an undersized center who averaged 15 points a game - the offense still went through his teammates first. Wilt didn't win anything until he teamed with Greer after getting TRADED to the 76ers and then got TRADED to the Lakers and teamed with West. The 1986 Houston Rockets lost 4-2 to the Celtics even though the Rockets had 2 HOF centers.

Because a lot of teams these days go small ball to score quickly in the final minutes, and centers are often FT liabilities, coaches take them in and out at the end of games in a way guys like Curry and Harden don't.

disagree with this statement: Bill Cartwright, Will Perdue, Luc Longley, and Bill Wennington peaked beyond themselves while playing next to Jordan. they were there to do exactly what they did. phil has a system and he already had his 2 main guys in jordan and pippen. in l.a. he had his 2 main guys in shaq and kobe and then in kobe and gasol. the other positons are useless because phil worked in what he needed. defense guy, rebounder, guard who doesn't make mental mistakes, 3 point shooter, etc. if look at the bulls or his 2 stints with the lakers the teams are built exactly the same just with positions swapped for certain roles

also if you look bill cartwrights best years were with the knicks before ever joining the bulls when he averaged about 17ppg is you eliminate the season he played just 2 games due to a foot injury.

i'd also like to point out shaq made the nba finals in orlando and had he stayed they could have gone back to the finals again. lets not even mention though how kobe wasn't even a starter his first 2 years in the league

[Edited on 5/29/2015 by matt05]

what center that did nothing on other teams did kobe win a ring with? all star shaq who a ring after kobe or all star pau gasol?

I mentioned that one of the greatest centers, Shaq, needed Kobe and Wade to win championships pretty clearly. As dominant as he was, he couldn't do it without another strong scoring threat in Kobe. Without Shaq, Kobe won a championship in 2009 with Andrew Bynum at center, who went on to become a couch shortly after (Gasol was the PF). Bill Cartwright, Will Perdue, Luc Longley, and Bill Wennington peaked beyond themselves while playing next to Jordan.

My point is that SG and Forwards are typically the cornerstones of a quality basketball team. It is rare that a center is the pillar without an equally strong back court option (how many college teams have quality centers?). Bill Russell is probably the greatest player in the history of the league but he was an undersized center who averaged 15 points a game - the offense still went through his teammates first. Wilt didn't win anything until he teamed with Greer after getting TRADED to the 76ers and then got TRADED to the Lakers and teamed with West. The 1986 Houston Rockets lost 4-2 to the Celtics even though the Rockets had 2 HOF centers.

Because a lot of teams these days go small ball to score quickly in the final minutes, and centers are often FT liabilities, coaches take them in and out at the end of games in a way guys like Curry and Harden don't.

You bring up Bill Russell...was he in at the end of games?

True,Russ needed scorers,but did the scorers need him for defense?

How about Wilt on defense with those Laker teams? What about rebounding or defense?

You negate the notion that defense wins games in the playoffs and that centers are a cornerstone of defensive systems.

And gaurds and forwards need centers to anchor the defense.

Think the Cavs needed a center this year?

even with Lebron the Cavs needed Mozgov to help them turn a corner....teams win,not positions,and positions are here to serve the larger whole.Basketball never relied on positions to win or lose and the game is always evolving.

Heck,the old Celtics won 11 championships and loved to run(yes even Russ kept up! LOL),then Barkley decided only gut it out in the half court teams win,until the Warriors brought us back to running.

The role of positions has also changed with the times.When I played HS and college ball there were 3 positions-center,gaurds,forward...no power,points,stretch 4's,etc. Most,if not all offensive plays began by throwing it down to the center,cutting hard to the basket or to the midrange positions,move the ball,find the open man,etc. For us it was simple...on our grade school teams we instinctively threw the ball to the biggest,strongest,sometimes heaviest kid who powered himself inside to score.It was the easiest way to win.No different than the great Oscar Robertson knew when he played for the bucks-pass it to Kareem first on 99% of plays,team ball movement,great team defense anchored by a big man=winning.

Today,the three pointer is becoming dominant...indeed shooters are the big thing today...in my day I was a superb long range shooter-the reward was usually 2 points followed by a seat on the bench! HA! When I finally played with 3's it was a blast!

But,before Rondo arrived,and Dallas was playing well the difference maker in many ways was Tyson Chandler-he rebounded and anchored the defense and they won.Their only championship needed Tyson as well.And IMHO Tyson is far from a great center-but Dallas could have never succeeded without him.Even in this era of raining down 3's!

[Edited on 5/29/2015 by dadof2]

Another thought about the finals....if Irving can't play at 100% then its not impossible for the Cavs to win,but it would be extremely difficult.

Go Cavs !

Go Lebron !

Go Cleveland !

When talking about The Warriors, everyone mentions the Splash Brothers and how they are a very fast, guard oriented team, and that's not off-base. But don't forget that The Warriors this year with Bogut and Festus Ezeli, are VERY strong at the center position. Both missed the playoffs last year with injuries (Ezeli missed the entire season last year). Bogut doesn't score a lot anymore, he gets his points off of alley-oops and offensive boards. But he is a defensive force in the middle, he can muscle with the big boys like Howard in the paint, and he happens to be easily the best passer for a 7 footer that I have EVER seen. Because of the alley-oops and his passing ability, he forces the defense to locate him at all times. And Ezeli is REALLY playing well at both ends, which is important, because with Bogut's injury history they do not want to play him more than about 25 minutes per game.

I doubt the Warriors would have come this far without Bogut and Ezeli. The Clippers knocked them out in the first round last year when both were hurt; DeAndre Jordan and Blake Griffin gave them fits inside. This reinforces the importance of the center position. Ezeli would be a starter on many NBA teams and with Bogut's injury history, they better hang on to him (as long as Ezeli stays healthy himself!)

That said, as porkchopbob has noted, the Warriors will often go small at the end of a game and use the 6'7" Draymond Green at center. It forces the other team to go small. But the Warriors cannot sustain that for an entire game and Bogut and Ezeli have been very important players for them.

You bring up Bill Russell...was he in at the end of games?

True,Russ needed scorers,but did the scorers need him for defense?

How about Wilt on defense with those Laker teams? What about rebounding or defense?

You negate the notion that defense wins games in the playoffs and that centers are a cornerstone of defensive systems.

And gaurds and forwards need centers to anchor the defense.

Think the Cavs needed a center this year?

even with Lebron the Cavs needed Mozgov to help them turn a corner....teams win,not positions,and positions are here to serve the larger whole.Basketball never relied on positions to win or lose and the game is always evolving.

Heck,the old Celtics won 11 championships and loved to run(yes even Russ kept up! LOL),then Barkley decided only gut it out in the half court teams win,until the Warriors brought us back to running.

The role of positions has also changed with the times.When I played HS and college ball there were 3 positions-center,gaurds,forward...no power,points,stretch 4's,etc. Most,if not all offensive plays began by throwing it down to the center,cutting hard to the basket or to the midrange positions,move the ball,find the open man,etc. For us it was simple...on our grade school teams we instinctively threw the ball to the biggest,strongest,sometimes heaviest kid who powered himself inside to score.It was the easiest way to win.No different than the great Oscar Robertson knew when he played for the bucks-pass it to Kareem first on 99% of plays,team ball movement,great team defense anchored by a big man=winning.

Today,the three pointer is becoming dominant...indeed shooters are the big thing today...in my day I was a superb long range shooter-the reward was usually 2 points followed by a seat on the bench! HA! When I finally played with 3's it was a blast!

But,before Rondo arrived,and Dallas was playing well the difference maker in many ways was Tyson Chandler-he rebounded and anchored the defense and they won.Their only championship needed Tyson as well.And IMHO Tyson is far from a great center-but Dallas could have never succeeded without him.Even in this era of raining down 3's!

[Edited on 5/29/2015 by dadof2]

Dude, if you actually read what I wrote about Russell and Wilt and the way the game used to be played vs how it is played today, I'm pretty sure you just agreed with me (I wrote "Of course in the previous eras, the best guys were all on the floor down the stretch, especially before 3 pointers came into play in the late 70s, and "hack-a-Shaq" became a strategy on centers to stop the clock in the final minutes 15 years ago.").

Tyson Chandler is a great example of my point - he was a beast during that 2011 Finals. A hustling center can put you over the top, but teams are typically built around scorers like Nowitzki. Centers are typically role players, unless they have a broad set of skills like Duncan (who is technically a PF, but mostly plays the pivot).

Anyways, since we agree, let's move on. Back to talking about the Finals.

disagree with this statement: Bill Cartwright, Will Perdue, Luc Longley, and Bill Wennington peaked beyond themselves while playing next to Jordan. they were there to do exactly what they did. phil has a system and he already had his 2 main guys in jordan and pippen. in l.a. he had his 2 main guys in shaq and kobe and then in kobe and gasol. the other positons are useless because phil worked in what he needed. defense guy, rebounder, guard who doesn't make mental mistakes, 3 point shooter, etc. if look at the bulls or his 2 stints with the lakers the teams are built exactly the same just with positions swapped for certain roles

also if you look bill cartwrights best years were with the knicks before ever joining the bulls when he averaged about 17ppg is you eliminate the season he played just 2 games due to a foot injury.

i'd also like to point out shaq made the nba finals in orlando and had he stayed they could have gone back to the finals again. lets not even mention though how kobe wasn't even a starter his first 2 years in the league

Kobe was straight out of high school and Del Harris was his coach. It was essentially freshman year for him.

Bill Cartwright had some decent first couple of years, statistically, on some mediocre Knicks squads. He was in decline when the Bulls traded Oakley for him, and Jordan was pissed. All of those centers played their role, they were interchangeable.

Shaq made the Finals when he had Penny - and still got swept by Phi Slamma Jamma pt. 2 because that Rockets team was stacked. Shaq couldn't have won without Kobe. The Rockets are probably the one team where the offense went through the center because Hakeem could do it all. Look at the 1990s Knicks - look up the "Ewing Theory".

It takes a whole team, 9 or 10 guys deep, for sure. All I'm saying is, rare is the team that is successfully built around the Center position. Wilt needed help, Russell had help, Russell won (except when Wilt had Greer).

Back to the FINALS.

When talking about The Warriors, everyone mentions the Splash Brothers and how they are a very fast, guard oriented team, and that's not off-base. But don't forget that The Warriors this year with Bogut and Festus Ezeli, are VERY strong at the center position. Both missed the playoffs last year with injuries (Ezeli missed the entire season last year). Bogut doesn't score a lot anymore, he gets his points off of alley-oops and offensive boards. But he is a defensive force in the middle, he can muscle with the big boys like Howard in the paint, and he happens to be easily the best passer for a 7 footer that I have EVER seen. Because of the alley-oops and his passing ability, he forces the defense to locate him at all times. And Ezeli is REALLY playing well at both ends, which is important, because with Bogut's injury history they do not want to play him more than about 25 minutes per game.

I doubt the Warriors would have come this far without Bogut and Ezeli. The Clippers knocked them out in the first round last year when both were hurt; DeAndre Jordan and Blake Griffin gave them fits inside. This reinforces the importance of the center position. Ezeli would be a starter on many NBA teams and with Bogut's injury history, they better hang on to him (as long as Ezeli stays healthy himself!)

That said, as porkchopbob has noted, the Warriors will often go small at the end of a game and use the 6'7" Draymond Green at center. It forces the other team to go small. But the Warriors cannot sustain that for an entire game and Bogut and Ezeli have been very important players for them.

Ezeli played BUTT off during that last series. As a Bucks fan, I'm glad to see Bogut tearing it up and getting to the finals. I always thought there was too much pressure on him in Milwaukee to do it all - now he can do his thing under the rim.

You bring up Bill Russell...was he in at the end of games?

True,Russ needed scorers,but did the scorers need him for defense?

How about Wilt on defense with those Laker teams? What about rebounding or defense?

You negate the notion that defense wins games in the playoffs and that centers are a cornerstone of defensive systems.

And gaurds and forwards need centers to anchor the defense.

Think the Cavs needed a center this year?

even with Lebron the Cavs needed Mozgov to help them turn a corner....teams win,not positions,and positions are here to serve the larger whole.Basketball never relied on positions to win or lose and the game is always evolving.

Heck,the old Celtics won 11 championships and loved to run(yes even Russ kept up! LOL),then Barkley decided only gut it out in the half court teams win,until the Warriors brought us back to running.

The role of positions has also changed with the times.When I played HS and college ball there were 3 positions-center,gaurds,forward...no power,points,stretch 4's,etc. Most,if not all offensive plays began by throwing it down to the center,cutting hard to the basket or to the midrange positions,move the ball,find the open man,etc. For us it was simple...on our grade school teams we instinctively threw the ball to the biggest,strongest,sometimes heaviest kid who powered himself inside to score.It was the easiest way to win.No different than the great Oscar Robertson knew when he played for the bucks-pass it to Kareem first on 99% of plays,team ball movement,great team defense anchored by a big man=winning.

Today,the three pointer is becoming dominant...indeed shooters are the big thing today...in my day I was a superb long range shooter-the reward was usually 2 points followed by a seat on the bench! HA! When I finally played with 3's it was a blast!

But,before Rondo arrived,and Dallas was playing well the difference maker in many ways was Tyson Chandler-he rebounded and anchored the defense and they won.Their only championship needed Tyson as well.And IMHO Tyson is far from a great center-but Dallas could have never succeeded without him.Even in this era of raining down 3's!

[Edited on 5/29/2015 by dadof2]

Tyson Chandler is a great example of my point - he was a beast during that 2011 Finals. A hustling center can put you over the top, but teams are typically built around scorers like Nowitzki. Centers are typically role players, unless they have a broad set of skills like Duncan (who is technically a PF, but mostly plays the pivot).

The centerpiece on defense is not a role player.

The role defense plays on a team is a role as is a rebounder,a passer,a scorer,etc.

I grew up when we were taught to be complete players.The concept, to be honest,never really developed. That may fully return in a more evolved,athletic and exciting package in the future.

We don't really agree,but that's cool...I love hearing differing opinions! The thrill of sports and music talk!

Oh...am I too old to be a "dude"? 😉 😛

[Edited on 5/29/2015 by dadof2]

The centerpiece on defense is not a role player.

The role defense plays on a team is a role as is a rebounder,a passer,a scorer,etc.

I grew up when we were taught to be complete players.The concept, to be honest,never really developed. That may fully return in a more evolved,athletic and exciting package in the future.

We don't really agree,but that's cool...I love hearing differing opinions! The thrill of sports and music talk!

Oh...am I too old to be a "dude"? 😉 😛

[Edited on 5/29/2015 by dadof2]

You're never too old to be a "dude"! Especially around here.

I wouldn't call Chandler the centerpiece of that defense, but he was definitely a huge part of it. It takes 5 to play D, Jason Terry played a great series against LeBron and Wade, they put a huge stop on Miami that year (even if people say the refs gave it to them). Chandler played both sides of the floor, even if he didn't score as much as he did when he played in NY where he was far less effective - but who has been effective in NY since Larry Johnson retired?

Kobe was straight out of high school and Del Harris was his coach. It was essentially freshman year for him.

(There were other reasons Kobe didnt play including his massive arrogance/immaturity,terrible shot selection,tendency to hog the ball,shoot too often,break down defensive sets,and generally behave like a very very skilled child who was disruptive and difficult.)

Bill Cartwright had some decent first couple of years, statistically, on some mediocre Knicks squads. He was in decline when the Bulls traded Oakley for him, and Jordan was pissed. All of those centers played their role, they were interchangeable.

(Jordan turned out to be wrong and Cartwright was far from finished as an effective player...I'm a rabid Knicks fan-the trade was made so Ewing can do his thing with a true PF)

It takes a whole team, 9 or 10 guys deep, for sure. All I'm saying is, rare is the team that is successfully built around the Center position. Wilt needed help, Russell had help, Russell won (except when Wilt had Greer).

(You say we agree on history-not really...Greer was the 2nd star who without Wilt wouldn't come near a championship.Wilt led in scoring and rebounding.Who was the scorer? like you say Nowitzki was scorer/star surrounded by a role playing Tyson chandler?
Same for Wilt? He was scorer/star surrounded by "role players"as you call them too? So,in Russell's case he wasn't a number 1 star? Are you suggesting his defense wasnt the "star"?)

As I said you have an interesting take on what I saw on TV every Sunday when wilt and Russ were playing.

The centerpiece on defense is not a role player.

The role defense plays on a team is a role as is a rebounder,a passer,a scorer,etc.

I grew up when we were taught to be complete players.The concept, to be honest,never really developed. That may fully return in a more evolved,athletic and exciting package in the future.

We don't really agree,but that's cool...I love hearing differing opinions! The thrill of sports and music talk!

Oh...am I too old to be a "dude"? 😉 😛

[Edited on 5/29/2015 by dadof2]

You're never too old to be a "dude"! Especially around here.

I wouldn't call Chandler the centerpiece of that defense, but he was definitely a huge part of it. It takes 5 to play D, Jason Terry played a great series against LeBron and Wade, they put a huge stop on Miami that year (even if people say the refs gave it to them). Chandler played both sides of the floor, even if he didn't score as much as he did when he played in NY where he was far less effective - but who has been effective in NY since Larry Johnson retired?

thanks! Got a nice laugh on that!

So,on offense,by your reasoning,I wouldn't call chandler the centerpiece on defense.Should I call Nowitzki a centerpiece on offense or a huge part of it?

On the Jason terry point I have no clue what you are talking about or the relevance to the discussion...my misunderstanding perhaps of what you're saying?

Larry Johnson was effective in ny? Yes,he hit a big shot.Was he really effective? How do you define effective on the Knicks?

Chandlers lack of effect in ny proves my point...you can have a centerpiece on defense and Tyson was that in ny and Dallas.When they won in Dallas there was team defense.(perhaps your Terry reference?)Was there team defense in ny?Were Amare and Melo helping out? Thus the difference even with a centerpiece.

Was Jordan not a centerpiece like wilt who needed Greer because he needed Pippen.

I think your logic is inconsistent and faulty as they used to say in logic or philosophy classes!

But nevertheless a fun discussion....