i never questioned page's abilities as a player though. easily top 10 greatest of all time even if every song he ever played on was a cover credited to the artist who wrote it. i questioned his ethics and honesty

as far as clapton a lot of his well known songs are covers even though he does write a great deal of material

Kinda funny discussion on an ABB forum considering these tunes they played, including 6 of their most popular, were covers:
One Way Out
Statesboro Blues
Stormy Monday
Trouble No More
Done Somebody Wrong
Mountain Jam (based rather seriously on Donovan)
Hoochie Coochie Man
You Don't Love Me
Blind Love
Can't Lose What You Never Had
Come In My Kitchen
Need Your Love So Bad
Dimples
Don't Want You No More
Drunken Hearted Boy
Dust My Broom
Goin' Down the Road
Good Morning Little School Girl
Heart of Stone
Johnny B. Goode
The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down
Nobody Knows You When You're Down and Out
Turn on Your Love Light
Who's Been Talking

As someone mentioned, that doesn't make any of their guitarists any less spectacular. At least they gave credits to whom they were due.

I don't begrudge the likes of Lady Gaga, Madonna, Katy Perry, Beyonce, Beiber, Swift, Garth Brooks, the Backstreet Boys & whatever else is the flavor of the week for their success or give a damn about the taste of people who listen to them. Ridiculously simple, repetitive music sells, but I'll be surprised if 50 years down the road many people will still have even heard of any of them as people do the Beatles, Zep, Pink Floyd, Stones, etc.

Sorry, but I'm not sure if I should laugh or cringe at the remark that McLaughlin was terrible & I'm being much kinder than Frank Zappa's quote below. I've seen him 7 times w/ 3 different bands (Mahavishnu, Eckhardt & Gurtu, DiMeola & DeLucia) & the last word that would come to my mind is "terrible." Miles Davis must have been drugged out beyond belief to think that McLaughlin was worthy of being in his band on 5 of his ground-breaking & rather influential albums.

Wikipedia: "His style has been described as one of aggressive speed, technical precision, and harmonic sophistication. He is known for using exotic scales and unconventional time signatures. Indian music has had a profound influence on his style, and, it has been written, he is one of the first westerners to play Indian music to Indian audiences. He was influential in bringing jazz fusion to popularity with Miles Davis, playing with Davis on five of his studio albums, including Davis' first gold-certified Bitches Brew, and one live album, Live-Evil.... McLaughlin has been cited as a major influence on many 1970s and 1980s fusion guitarists. Examples are prominent players such as Steve Morse, Eric Johnson, Mike Stern, Paul Masvidal, Al Di Meola, Pebber Brown, Shawn Lane, and Scott Henderson. His influence did not stop in the 80's, though; hardcore punk guitarist Greg Ginn of Black Flag cited Birds of Fire by The Mahavishnu Orchestra which inspired him to record more progressive guitar work and even record instrumental songs. Current players still hold him as highly influential, including Omar Rodriguez-Lopez of The Mars Volta. According to Pat Metheny, McLaughlin has changed the evolution of the guitar during several of his periods of playing. McLaughlin is also considered a major influence on composers in the fusion genre. In an interview with Downbeat, Chick Corea remarked that "...what John McLaughlin did with the electric guitar set the world on its ear. No one ever heard an electric guitar played like that before, and it certainly inspired me. John's band, more than my experience with Miles, led me to want to turn the volume up and write music that was more dramatic and made your hair stand on end". Frank Zappa said of McLaughlin in Guitar Player, Jan. 1977: "A person would be a moron not to appreciate McLaughlin's technique. The guy has certainly found out how to operate a guitar as if it were a machine gun. But I'm not always enthusiastic about the lines I hear or the ways in which they're used. I don't think you can fault him, though, for the amount of time and effort it must have taken to play an instrument that fast. I think anybody who can play that fast is just wonderful. And I'm sure 90% of teenage America would agree, since the whole trend in the business has been "faster is better."

All Music Guide: "One of fusion's most virtuosic guitar soloists, John McLaughlin placed his blazing speed in the service of a searching spiritual passion that has kept his music evolving and open to new influences. Whether shredding on electric or simmering quietly on acoustic, McLaughlin's intensity and underappreciated versatility have nearly always kept his playing vital, and his best moments -- whether as a solo artist or bandmember -- represent some of fusion's greatest recordings."

All About Jazz: "McLaughlin recorded Extrapolation (with Tony Oxley and John Surman) in 1969. The album showcased McLaughlin as a guitarist of great technical virtuosity, power, speed, and inventiveness (such as the ability to play in odd meters)."

Toronto Jazz Fest: "John McLaughlin is, quite simply, one of the most important guitarists to have contributed to the jazz scene in the past fifty years. He has played a vital role in bringing to the mainstream a variety of styles including the fusions of jazz with rock and jazz with east-Indian classical music, and plays with a technical ability which inspires musicians of all stripes. And, although we shouldn't judge a musician solely by the company he keeps, a quick look at some of John's past collaborators is fairly impressive: Miles Davis, Tony Williams, Wayne Shorter, the Rolling Stones, Jaco Pastorius, Zakir Hussain and Paco de Lucia (among many others!).

In 2003, Rolling Stone magazine named John McLaughlin as one of the 100 greatest guitarists of all time, and it's easy to see why: he has an almost unrivaled mastery the guitar, whether playing the beautiful acoustic music of his album My Goals Beyond; the avant-jazz-funk of the Miles Davis album On the Corner; his indo-jazz fusion with the Mahavishnu Orchestra; or as part of the guitar trio with Paco de Lucia and Al di Meola."

Yeah, these videos display just terrible guitar playing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CXfTwy6N-k &

OK, off of my soapbox!

As for Willie Dixon being wealthy, that's not true at all:

"I first met Willie in 1971," says Scott Cameron, who was then booking [Muddy} Waters and would soon take over the management of both men, "and I thought he should be a wealthy man. He wasn't."

Cameron found out why. "They were employees with work-for-hire contracts with Arc Music, which was the publishing wing of Chess Records," he says. ''These contracts are akin to being hired as a salaried worker to score a movie or play. They were receiving royalties, but not at rates commensurate to normal songwriting royalties."

From All Music Guide: "Dixon's remuneration for all of this work, including the songwriting, was minimal -- he was barely able to support his rapidly growing family on the 100 dollars a week that the Chess brothers were giving him, and a short stint with the rival Cobra label at the end of the '50s didn't help him much.... Suddenly, in his fifties, he began making a major name for himself on-stage for the first time in his career. Around this time, Dixon began to have grave doubts about the nature of the songwriting contract that he had with Chess' publishing arm, Arc Music. He was seeing precious little money from songwriting, despite the recording of hit versions of such Dixon songs as "Spoonful" by Cream. He had never seen as much money as he was entitled to as a songwriter, but during the 1970s he began to understand just how much money he'd been deprived of, by design or just plain negligence on the part of the publisher doing its job on his behalf."

I am certainly not a music expert but I've been around long enough to know what I like. I am not enamored with LZ and Page like many others , but I consider myself in good company. In his book, Eric Clapton said he was a " severe critic of Led Zeppelin " . I believe it was in Alan Pauls' book where Jaimoe said there were 2 guitarist Duane Allman didn't like - Jimmy Page and the guitarist from Herbie Mann's band . These facts became known to me well after I decided LZ just wasn't the music for me . I also knew nothing about all the plagiarism that LZ willfully and knowingly engaged in. Not to mention the 27 yr. old Page and the 15 yr. old girl. You can have him Mule . Or are you Sheep ?

Millions like them so you are in the minority which is fine as you know what you like.

Again just because you don't like something doesn't make it bad. In this case it just shows that you have poor taste or have had a little too much of Jerry Juice.

As for Page and the 15 year old, you do realize that virtually every band of that era did the same. In fact Lori Maddox (the woman in question) had already dated Mick Jagger. If you judge those bands by who had sex with minors then you may as well hate everyone including the ABB. If you threw every rocker you had sex with a minor then rock would have ended in the 50s.

Sorry, but I'm not sure if I should laugh or cringe at the remark that McLaughlin was terrible & I'm being much kinder than Frank Zappa's quote below. I've seen him 7 times w/ 3 different bands (Mahavishnu, Eckhardt & Gurtu, DiMeola & DeLucia) & the last word that would come to my mind is "terrible." Miles Davis must have been drugged out beyond belief to think that McLaughlin was worthy of being in his band on 5 of his ground-breaking & rather influential albums.

Were you at the concert (actually I've seen him twice) that I saw? Have you never seen a concert that you didn't like?

It was just my opinion. Maybe he is considered some musical genius. I know of him. Just don't care for him.

As I said, it is subjective.

ellen says he's the greatest

Sorry, but I'm not sure if I should laugh or cringe at the remark that McLaughlin was terrible & I'm being much kinder than Frank Zappa's quote below. I've seen him 7 times w/ 3 different bands (Mahavishnu, Eckhardt & Gurtu, DiMeola & DeLucia) & the last word that would come to my mind is "terrible." Miles Davis must have been drugged out beyond belief to think that McLaughlin was worthy of being in his band on 5 of his ground-breaking & rather influential albums.

Were you at the concert (actually I've seen him twice) that I saw? Have you never seen a concert that you didn't like?

It was just my opinion. Maybe he is considered some musical genius. I know of him. Just don't care for him.

As I said, it is subjective.

I don't know if I was at the concerts of his that you went to, but it wouldn't surprise me depending where you saw him. I saw him 4 times in SF & once in Oakland, Berkeley & Hempstead on Long Island. They were all exceptional.

Out of 3200+ shows I've been to there were fewer than 10 I didn't like: Helen Reddy/Mac Davis, Bobby Goldsboro/Vicki Carr (both w/ my dad when I was 13), Pat Travers (free), Reel Big Fish, Spot 1019 (free & I'd never even heard of them before I went w/ a friend), Midnite (free & it wasn't that I didn't like it, it was just boring reggae), Thin Lizzy & Missing Persons (free & I'd never heard any of their songs before; I went only b/c 3 Zappa alumni were in it). Aside from Terry Bozzio in Missing Persons, none of those bands or musicians ever came within light years of the acclaim McLaughlin has received from numerous music critics & particularly the numerous extraordinary musicians who have played with him for 50 years. And, yes, he is considered "some musical genius."

I saw Page when he was sloppy as all hell because he was plastered on the bottle of Jack Daniels that was sitting on top of his amp at the ARMS benefit in SF & I saw Larry Coryell when he was too drunk to plug in his guitar, but I still wouldn't say they were terrible. On the other hand, Page was apparently sober & excellent with Plant in the early 90s & Coryell was mind-blowing the other 6 times I saw him. Unless you saw McLaughlin in the 60s when he did acid, I don't think anyone who ever saw him would claim he was terrible, regardless that music is subjective. If I claimed on here that Haynes, Betts & Derek sucked royally the many times I saw them, I'm sure I'd get the same reaction from many posters that you got from me regarding McLaughlin.

The first time I listened to McLaughlin was when the Mar Y Sol album was released.
The Last time I listened to McLaughlin was when the Mar Y Sol album was released.
But...I sure listened to this great guitar player a lot on that album! 😛

Interesting post. It seems to have devolved into a discussion on whether you enjoy Page or not. I will say that I thoroughly enjoy his playing and his songs.

As per the fact that he "stole" much of his songs, that is true. But remember that every British band at the time did the same thing. Cream did Crossroads and Sitting on top of the World, The Stones pilched several, as did The Who and many others. But here's the catch: Listen to the original and then listen to what Zepp did with them. Like listening to Watchtower by Dylan and then Jimi. They make it their own. As for claiming they wrote it, my guess would be that was a record company mistake and not Page/Plant mistake.

And while he did steal a bunch, what about the vast amount that he didn't take? Listen to The Rain Song or Over the Hills and Far Away or Black Dog or hell, the list is impressive. I saw Page play with the Black Crows and man, he still can bring it.

Besides the obvious DUANE ALLMAN kicks his a$$ ... anybody else?

Robert Fripp
Jeff Beck
John McLaughlin
DEREK TRUCKS!!!!!!!

Buddy Guy
DICKEY Betts
Carlos Santana
Robben Ford
Jeff Carlisi
Johnny Winter
Eric Krasno
Austin Pettit (a Doraville guitarist)

[Edited on 12/6/2014 by gina]

Interesting post. It seems to have devolved into a discussion on whether you enjoy Page or not. I will say that I thoroughly enjoy his playing and his songs.

As per the fact that he "stole" much of his songs, that is true. But remember that every British band at the time did the same thing. Cream did Crossroads and Sitting on top of the World, The Stones pilched several, as did The Who and many others. But here's the catch: Listen to the original and then listen to what Zepp did with them. Like listening to Watchtower by Dylan and then Jimi. They make it their own. As for claiming they wrote it, my guess would be that was a record company mistake and not Page/Plant mistake.

And while he did steal a bunch, what about the vast amount that he didn't take? Listen to The Rain Song or Over the Hills and Far Away or Black Dog or hell, the list is impressive. I saw Page play with the Black Crows and man, he still can bring it.

you are talking about credited cover vs a sing being credited to people who didn't write it

As for claiming they wrote it, my guess would be that was a record company mistake and not Page/Plant mistake.

Interesting comment, and I ask this question seriously, not rhetorically: everyone gives Zep shit for stealing songs (and they do deserve blame), but what about the record company? We're they really so ignorant as to not know the original artists.

As for claiming they wrote it, my guess would be that was a record company mistake and not Page/Plant mistake.

Interesting comment, and I ask this question seriously, not rhetorically: everyone gives Zep shit for stealing songs (and they do deserve blame), but what about the record company? We're they really so ignorant as to not know the original artists.

You really think MAJOR RECORD COMPANIES know music?

As for claiming they wrote it, my guess would be that was a record company mistake and not Page/Plant mistake.

Interesting comment, and I ask this question seriously, not rhetorically: everyone gives Zep shit for stealing songs (and they do deserve blame), but what about the record company? We're they really so ignorant as to not know the original artists.

You really think MAJOR RECORD COMPANIES know music?

Prolly not so much.... But, I would think they would know about copyright infringement and lawsuits!

That's what George got nailed on with his song My Sweet Lord -- copywright infringement etc etc --
now that one I could see, MSL was a pretty direct copy of She's So Fine
not in the case of these Zep ones tho -- JPJones is not copping Willie D bass licks during JPJones' lead bass solo on Lemon Song, for instance -- it's 2 different numbers completely (it & KFlr), same w/their other covers

Overall I feel that Zep being called ripoffs is Patently ridiculous 😮

That's what George got nailed on with his song My Sweet Lord -- copywright infringement etc etc --
now that one I could see, MSL was a pretty direct copy of She's So Fine
not in the case of these Zep ones tho -- JPJones is not copping Willie D bass licks during JPJones' lead bass solo on Lemon Song, for instance -- it's 2 different numbers completely (it & KFlr), same w/their other covers

Overall I feel that Zep being called ripoffs is Patently ridiculous 😮

they took someones elses lyrics and out them over new music. How can you say they didn't steal something? In the case of dazed and confused and babe I'm gonna leave you they barely changed the music

Definilty a favourite Zepp tune of mine since first seeing the movie in grade 9. Jimmy Page rocks!!!

Or this one...

Or this...

My first or second guitar hero for sure.

LED ZEPPELIN MAN!!!!!

This is what you call unchanged musically? That's funny. He didn't win his case for a reason.

As for Babe I'm Gonna Leave You, it was done by many artists most of whom took credit. The lyrics for the most part stay the same but musically they are very different. Page was inspired by the Joan Baez version which she credited as traditional. That is why the Zeppelin version was credited to Tradition Arrangement Page. Anne Bredon was not even aware of their version and when it later became known then she got co-credit as musically they were not the same and lyrics had been changed. She was quite pleased as with the retro royalties and future income, she was rewarded in a big way. She should have then gave half to Baez as without her Zeppelin never does the song. Page had no idea who Bredon was.

Again both songs are not musically alike and Page wrote the music. Stole nothing but why bother with facts?

The Association (look who they credit)

Barbara Muller (this version is credited to Janet Smith)

The Plebs ( They credit it to Traditional arranged by Dennis)

Joan Baez ( Credit Traditional)

So which version do you think Page stole? Any who exactly did he think he was stealing from? I know details details.

[Edited on 12/7/2014 by CanadianMule]

While we are looking into it, every time this gets played on the radio ( lol) I mistake it for Stairway. Musically identical to the point where it creates confusion. Play them at the same time and they match up perfectly. LMAO

Spirit - Taurus

or ????

Tommy Emanuel

Joe Bonnamassa

Taken on pure music theory and playing ability Jack Pearson Hands down , Jeff Beck, Ritchie Blackmore, Rory Gallager, Duane Allman, JimiHendrix, Eric Clapton all kick his A$$ and many many more...

Hey Mule you seem to be a pedophile apologist. And I'm the one with poor taste ? I don't think so. And if I am , I am with both Clapton and Duane . I'll stick with those two. You can have all the others. If you had a 15 yr. old daughter getting banged by a 27 yr. old Page ( or any adult for that matter ) I'm sure you would find that utterly repugnant and criminal. Or maybe you wouldn't now that I think about your previous posts , because you seem to be a plagiarism apologist also. I hate when the law gets in the way of having a good old time, you know: raping and stealing.

[Edited on 12/8/2014 by JerryJuice]

I don't begrudge the likes of Lady Gaga, Madonna, Katy Perry, Beyonce, Beiber, Swift, Garth Brooks, the Backstreet Boys & whatever else is the flavor of the week for their success or give a damn about the taste of people who listen to them. Ridiculously simple, repetitive music sells, but I'll be surprised if 50 years down the road many people will still have even heard of any of them as people do the Beatles, Zep, Pink Floyd, Stones, etc.

IMO, those pop/country acts listed aren't all equal comparisons at all, not that it matters. And, if you don't call early Beatles and Stones simple and repetitive, then what is it? ;):D

Raping & stealing -- peaceout, but 1 of the very 1st R&R heroes, JL Lewis, married a 13 year old -- the call of the wild came in like fashion many years later to another great musician, Bill Wyman -- & to Many thousands of others along the way -- raping? Nah those groupie chicks want no part of any sex....

Stealing, same thing -- 1st great R&R radio hit, Hound Dog -- many said, what a great Elvis song, Even though it was originally done by Big Mama Thornton --
was Elvis stealing? He wasn't considered a thief then, nor should Zeppelin now -- they brought to full fruition the potential of these songs -- that's why they're as-much theirs as anybody's if not more

IMO, those pop/country acts listed aren't all equal comparisons at all, not that it matters. And, if you don't call early Beatles and Stones simple and repetitive, then what is it? ;):D

for the times, the Beatles and Stones each had an original sound

Raping & stealing -- peaceout, but 1 of the very 1st R&R heroes, JL Lewis, married a 13 year old -- the call of the wild came in like fashion many years later to another great musician, Bill Wyman -- & to Many thousands of others along the way -- raping? Nah those groupie chicks want no part of any sex....

Stealing, same thing -- 1st great R&R radio hit, Hound Dog -- many said, what a great Elvis song, Even though it was originally done by Big Mama Thornton --
was Elvis stealing? He wasn't considered a thief then, nor should Zeppelin now -- they brought to full fruition the potential of these songs -- that's why they're as-much theirs as anybody's if not more

elvis wasn't considered a thief because hound dog was never credited as being written by elvis

Stephen JL Lewis MARRIED his 13 yr. old cousin once removed. While I find it reprehensible at least they did get married and the families knew about it and forgave JLL who was 22 at the time. It was also his 3rd marriage. Weird but as far as I know not criminal. Again Page was in a relationship with a 15 yr. old when he was 27. Come on man. Are you so ignorant to find this acceptable? You mean those groupies were all 15 yrs. old . I am pretty sure he could have found at least one 17 yr old - the legal age for consent - among the many groupies he encountered. No one else in LZ had publicizes affairs with CHILDREN that I know of.

And your rant about Elvis is not even worth commenting on - he did NOT claim it as his own song. Both Page and Plant have ADMITTED to plagiarism. You need to get a grip on reality. Peace out dude.

Stephen JL Lewis MARRIED his 13 yr. old cousin once removed. While I find it reprehensible at least they did get married and the families knew about it and forgave JLL who was 22 at the time. It was also his 3rd marriage. Weird but as far as I know not criminal. Again Page was in a relationship with a 15 yr. old when he was 27. Come on man. Are you so ignorant to find this acceptable? You mean those groupies were all 15 yrs. old . I am pretty sure he could have found at least one 17 yr old - the legal age for consent - among the many groupies he encountered. No one else in LZ had publicizes affairs with CHILDREN that I know of.

And your rant about Elvis is not even worth commenting on - he did NOT claim it as his own song. Both Page and Plant have ADMITTED to plagiarism. You need to get a grip on reality. Peace out dude.

just wanted to make a slight correction. page has NEVER admitted to plagiarism. when the subject was ever brought up he either didn't comment or try and pawn it all off on plant. plant has however admitted to it. saying he thought using lyrics from artists he liked was paying tribute and copyright laws weren't as established back then when it happened

Jimmy Page - It Might Get Loud - Intro Remix