@nebish you are joking, right? Did you hear about Pelosi's maskless fundraiser at the wine vinyard?
@nebish you are joking, right? Did you hear about Pelosi's maskless fundraiser at the wine vinyard?
No. Sorry, like I said I haven't followed too much. President Obama's birthday celebration, that wasn't canceled...or did they talk about canceling it? I don't know...there was come controversy about it. I'll just go back to reading football news.
@nebish no it was "scaled back" which satisfied the leftist media....nothing to see here...the guests also didn't wear masks but made the hired help wear them....mask for thee, not for me. And the point of this stuff isn't even the hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is a given....it blatantly shows that they (Obama, Pelosi, Newsome) don't actually believe the threat is as real as they are saying it is.
@fitzy77 Science? No offense, but you don't seem to accept the science to be real to begin with. You attempt to score points by seemingly defending gatherings of vaccinated people. I don't happen to be a scientist in the educated sense. What I can tell you is that I have lost three friends to Covid (sorry to keep bringing this up). I also have a close relative who is most certainly suffering a break-through case of the virus. She works in the Medical field and likely picked this up at work. And she had been vaccinated. I get the bulk of my information from the Georgia Department of Public Health ( https://dph.georgia.gov/covid-19-daily-status-report ). According to these folks (who work closely with actual scientists and doctors - people like that) - most of the new cases are those who HAVE NOT been vaccinated. A very small portion (1% or less) are break-through cases. This by itself should show anybody that the vaccines have merit.
You can knock Dr. Fauci all you want, but if a small percentage of the advice he has given had been followed by obstinate folks like yourself, we'd be a lot closer to the exit by now.
Now let me ask you a question: Would you be willing to sign a document waiving the use/application of a ventilator in the event that you contracted a severe case of Covid? By doing so, you'd be helping the overwhelmed staffs at virtually every hospital in America.
We're actually talking about two different things that are not in conflict with each other.
1. Jason Isbell traveling through out the country with his band and crew putting on public performances, often at indoor venues. He is requiring attendees be vaccinated to reduce the spread of COVID and protect themselves as much as possible while on the road so he can continue to work.
2. A private party outdoors, that was scaled back significantly. We don't know the vaccination rate of the guests, but I would wager it was high. It's completely ok for vaccinated people to gather with each because, well, that's the whole purpose of getting vaccinated - living your life while protected from the virus.
So, not the same.
It's "completely OK" for vaccinated people to gather.....what else is completely OK? Please tell us.
Why scale it back at all if everyone is vaccinated? And that is "OK"?
BTW, not that it's anybody's business, but I am fully vaccinated. A decision I made for myself based on my own assessment of my own medical needs and my own risk/reward evaluation (COVID risk low, vaccination side effects, probably low but who really knows?). And Jason Isabell and Govt Mule can put any stipulation they want on the ticket purchase but I don't like the idea of a band telling me what medical decisions I should make as a prerequisite to my ticket purchase...so they don't get my 150 bucks this time. I just wonder where it stops....would you buy a Ted Nugent ticket if he demanded you sign a 2nd Amendment support pledge as part of the deal? What if a band decides that obese people are taxing the healthcare system more than they would like so they make you weigh in at the turnstile to make sure your BMI is within bounds. And someone will say "that's different....blah blah blah", but who decides? And is that really the America you want to live in? Be careful and think before you answer.
You're confusing rights with wants. You're not forced into any of these situations, in each case you have 2 choices: go to the show or don't go; go to the party or don't go. If you don't like the stipulations (so long as they are not discriminatory) or believe it is a safe environment, don't go. No one is being forced to get a vaccine, but you don't get to see Jason Isbell who is trying to keep his employees safe so they can tour the country safely and continue to make a living. I'm sure Warren Haynes is heartbroken you won't be there.
A person's weight does not affect the health of those around them, therefor is no danger. A virus, however, poses a public threat. One is a public health issue, the other is discriminatory and they are legally defined. This also isn't new. Students without meningitis vaccines are often barred from living in college dorms. Plenty of venues bar people with firearms or weapons from entry to maintain safety. OSHA or local boards of health maintains public health regulations. Don't like wearing a hair net? Then you can't cook food. That's the choice, it's not discriminatory.
Obama planned a party months ago when the future COVID outlook looked good. Cases have ticked up so he scaled back the party. Unvaccinated people can have a party too, it's just less safe and highly discouraged by the CDC. Whether I think he should have had it is irrelevant, he was within his rights to and it was within CDC guidelines since vaccinations have been readily available.
I don't think I'm confusing anything. Read my post again. I said the bands can decide anything they want and I can go or not go. And if a bunch of people who value freedom to make their medical choices decide not to go, Warren might be heartbroken that he's playing to an empty shed. OK...so I have heard the "unvaccinated taxes the healthcare system" argument bandied about...i.e. they're using up ventilators, taking up ICU space etc...so can we all agree to take that one out of the holster? All the same arguments apply to the obese, smokers, etc. OK, so as long as "we" decide that there is a "public safety hazard", the Govt led by unelected officials can decide to mandate we take a vaccine that's under emergency authorization...mandate that I have to wear a mask everywhere I go, mandate that I am allowed to go to a liquor store but can't attend church service. Do I have the "right" (free speech, pretty sure that is still a right) as a citizen of a free country to ask a couple of questions? So...couple questions...who is "we"? What constitutes a public safety hazard? What is my risk of death from COVID? What are the long term risks of repeated doses of these vaccines? Should children under 12 be required to get the vaccine under emergency authorization? Should I lose my Twitter account if I ask some questions? Do you think that all US citizens should be forced to get the vaccine? Or do you just favor, taking away all their "wants"? What if a different President gets elected and his "we" decides there is different "public health hazard"? Should we cease all immigration until the world's population is vaccinated? There is a public health hazard and they only "want" to be here, they don't have the "right" to be here...and even if you answer yes...to all if these questions, I ask you again, is that really the America you want to live in?
I could very well be wrong as I am increasingly falling out of the news cycle, but I thought that Obama party got canceled?
It was for vaccinated people only and held outside - after some worries about the Delta variant and some criticism it was downsized from about 500 people to 200.
What difference does it make if it’s 500 or 200, all I’ve ever heard is how contagious it is, vaccine or no vaccine - am just saying impartially
must’ve been a real wingding of a party, w/200 socially-distanced guests trying to talk thru masks
Covid, Delta & the Mutations will be here for a long time to come, & so will the finger pointing & paranoia
lets go Sox
@stephen which part of "he scaled it back" did you not understand? It's Obama,: he's vaccinated.
I get the bulk of my information from the Georgia Department of Public Health ( https://dph.georgia.gov/covid-19-daily-status-report /a> ). According to these folks (who work closely with actual scientists and doctors - people like that) - most of the new cases are those who HAVE NOT been vaccinated. A very small portion (1% or less) are break-through cases. This by itself should show anybody that the vaccines have merit.
Thanks Rusty. I followed the link.
In getting Georgia's breakthrough infection rate of .71%, they take the laboratory confirmed cases and divide it by number of fully vaccinated people in the state. So 32,168 break-through infections 1/2/21 to 9/1/21 within 4,525,159 vaccinated person = .007108 x 100 = .71%.
However, shouldn't they be taking the break-through infections and dividing it by the total infections in the period? There have been 32,168 break-through infections plus 656,783 infections in unvaccinated people. So 688,951 total infections in the 1/2/21 - 9/1/21 period. Then wouldn't you take the breakthrough infections and divide the total number of cases resulting in .04669 or 4.7%.
Break-through infections as a percentage of total cases in Georgia this year should be 4.7%. Still an excellent and low rate. This is a more accurate representation of the cases and who is getting them - which again, 5% vs 95% rounding the numbers is still an excellent ratio.
@nebish a number I would be I nterested in knowing would be the number of deaths in vaccinated people who contracted breakthrough infections as a percentage of the entire population of GA. Essentially, that would provide a blunt proxy for the "risk" (if we define "risk" as death....or we could use hospitalizations if you prefer) of a vaccinated concertgoer coming into contact with an unvaccinated concertgoer and contracting COVID. Actually, it would yield a conservatively high measure because it wouldn't filter out the unmitigated risk (by isabell's policy) of a vaccinated concertgoer contracting COVID from a fellow vaccinated concertgoer. My bet is that if you further filtered this number down by age group, comorbities etc. ,it would ultimately yield a number so close to zero for an otherwise healthy vaccinated person, that the risk is statistically zero. And that is really the subject of this thread.
Much respect for you and the wife getting vaccinated and doing the right thing for the country.
I am aligned with pcbob and rusty's views on this topic so while we may disagree I respect your right to boycott artists that require proof of vaccination or negative COVID test.
Don't worry though I will take some photos of the Mule for you from our 2nd row center seats and post them here for your viewing pleasure. 😎
And feel free to quibble with my assumptions if you think there are flaws that would over or under estimate the numbers. Bound to be a few. Just please explain your logic.
- Thanks Bill G. I've seen Mule about 30 times so I know you are in for a treat.
@nebish a number I would be I nterested in knowing would be the number of deaths in vaccinated people who contracted breakthrough infections as a percentage of the entire population of GA. Essentially, that would provide a blunt proxy for the "risk" (if we define "risk" as death....or we could use hospitalizations if you prefer) of a vaccinated concertgoer coming into contact with an unvaccinated concertgoer and contracting COVID. Actually, it would yield a conservatively high measure because it wouldn't filter out the unmitigated risk (by isabell's policy) of a vaccinated concertgoer contracting COVID from a fellow vaccinated concertgoer. My bet is that if you further filtered this number down by age group, comorbities etc. ,it would ultimately yield a number so close to zero for an otherwise healthy vaccinated person, that the risk is statistically zero. And that is really the subject of this thread.
Based on the Georgia Department of Health link, the number of covid positive deaths in vaccinated people is stated as 219. The 2020 Census put Georgia's population at 10,711,908. But I don't think we should compare vaccinated deaths with the entire Georgia population, because the entire Georgia population is not vaccinated. Using the fully vaccinated figure of 4,525,159 and a 219 death figure puts that % at .004%.
I've dabbled in this thread from time to time. The subject of this thread isn't about dying of covid. Some of the people here are contending that there is some level of unacceptable risk of contracting covid, whether one has a good outcome or bad outcome from that isn't the subject. Simply reducing the risk of infection. My point has been that being vaccinated has done that regardless of what anyone else has done. And then there are some other subplots buried within.
So would it be fair to say this (and please correct me if I am wrong): 99.6% of vaccinated people in GA either do not get infected with COVID or if they do get infected, survive the infection, adding natural infection immunity to their COVID defenses?
That makes sense
in getting back to an earlier point, waiting for natural herd immunity results in hundreds of thousands dying, as we have seen. The people in ICUs now are almost all unvaccinated, many are young with few if any co morbid illnesses
yes, more should be done to combat obesity
re Fauci-his entire career as a scientist is amazing. I started reading his papers in the 80’s. He’s a great scientist. George HW Bush essentially called him a hero in the AIDS front. Is he right all the time? No one is. He speaks as a scientist and public health official and not a politician
So would it be fair to say this (and please correct me if I am wrong): 99.6% of vaccinated people in GA either do not get infected with COVID or if they do get infected, survive the infection, adding natural infection immunity to their COVID defenses?
Not exactly.
Using data from here: https://dph.georgia.gov/covid-19-daily-status-report /a> At the bottom of that page there is a pdf file that says "Covid 19 Among Fully Vaccinated People in Georgia". That is where the data I have referenced comes from.
.71% of vaccinated people in Georgia have laboratory confirmed positive covid break-through infections (very likely under reported).
.02% of vaccinated people in Georgia have been hospitalized 'for any reason' and tested positive with covid
.004% of vaccinated people in Georgia have died due to covid
Another way to state the numbers
4.7% of the total laboratory confirmed positive covid cases have been break-through infections among the vaccinated (32,168 of 688,951)
4.2% of the total hospitalized 'for any reason' and tested positive with covid are vaccinated persons (1251 of 29,692)
2.99% of the total deaths due to covid have been among the vaccinated (219 of 7,305)
Using the total number of vaccinated persons as a gauge does not accurately represent the data. While mathematically correct, saying that only .71% of vaccinated Georgians have contracted covid would certainly unreported as a number of asymptomatic and even some symptomatic individuals who did not get a test are not factored). I would prefer to use the known positive case count figure to draw the percentage from, which is where I state that 4.7% of positive covid cases in Georgia have been among the vaccinated. 4.2% of the hospitalizations have been among the vaccinated and 2.99% of the deaths have been among the vaccinated.
OK - I agree that asymptomatic cases are underreported. Most people don't get tested if they feel fine but I think it still accurate to say (based on the data above) that 99.6% of vaccinated people will not die from COVID. Point being, in the context of attending an outdoor concert, allowing unvaccinated people to attend probably does not add a lot of risk to vaccinated people...not none whatsoever...but so little additional incremental risk as to be nearly negligible. So, at some point it becomes more of a punative thing..."you are not doing enough to take one for the team to achieve herd immunity". And some of you may say, "good...they should be punished." Now all those same arguments start to apply to other stuff. Well, let's exclude them from supermarkets. How about obese people who are not doing enough to limit their consumption of medical resources? What about people who don't recycle? What about people who drive SUVs? Let's punish them into compliance. You can only attend my concert if you drive a hybrid. Is this really the America you want to live in? What if it's compelled compliance on something you might NOT agree with? It's short sighted to allow Govt over reach on something you agree with because history shows...this only goes one way.
I don't think I'm confusing anything. Read my post again. I said the bands can decide anything they want and I can go or not go.
So there's no issue, both you and the band (and the venue) have the freedom to make your own health-related and concert-going decisions.
OK...so I have heard the "unvaccinated taxes the healthcare system" argument bandied about...i.e. they're using up ventilators, taking up ICU space etc...so can we all agree to take that one out of the holster? All the same arguments apply to the obese, smokers, etc.
Smoking is a great example - you can't smoke anywhere you want because it affects other peoples' health. Most concert venues BAN SMOKING because it is a public health hazard. But you can stay at home, light up a Marb and turn up some Mule.
Obesity doesn't affect the health of the people around them and it is not filling up ICUs to the point where other sick people can't get medical care. So, no, not the same argument.
who is "we"?
You and your neighbors and everyone you know and don't know.
What constitutes a public safety hazard? What is my risk of death from COVID?
I would say over 600,000 dead is a public safety hazard, something pretty much everyone in the WORLD agrees on. Your risk of death from COVID is an unknown variable, but you are vaccinated so it is now much lower.
Should I lose my Twitter account if I ask some questions?
Twitter is a private company and they can police it how they choose (just as Rowland does here), as long as they are not discriminatory. Twitter is not a right.
Do you think that all US citizens should be forced to get the vaccine? Or do you just favor, taking away all their "wants"?
I've already said everyone has the right to choose if they want to get vaccinated. Not getting vaccinated puts people at a higher risk and excludes them from some places (just like a smoker).
What if a different President gets elected and his "we" decides there is different "public health hazard"? Should we cease all immigration until the world's population is vaccinated? There is a public health hazard and they only "want" to be here, they don't have the "right" to be here...and even if you answer yes...to all if these questions, I ask you again, is that really the America you want to live in?
People who seek US Visas and immigration are required to get a number of vaccinations before they can enter the country. It literally IS the country you have lived in for decades under every administration and their "we" never complained. Great example!
OK - I agree that asymptomatic cases are underreported. Most people don't get tested if they feel fine but I think it still accurate to say (based on the data above) that 99.6% of vaccinated people will not die from COVID. Point being, in the context of attending an outdoor concert, allowing unvaccinated people to attend probably does not add a lot of risk to vaccinated people...not none whatsoever...but so little additional incremental risk as to be nearly negligible.
That is how I feel. I have full faith and confidence in my vaccine. I would fly on an airplane even if I knew every other person on the plane was unvaccinated. I did attend two outdoor concerts this summer where I was shoulder to shoulder and front to back with a crowd of people. I was completely fine with that and never wondered or cared who was vaccinated or who was not.
I believe that the Georgia data we are discussing can be applied everywhere as it seems consistent with all the very very small percentages reported elsewhere. It is actually 99.996% of people vaccinated have not died of covid and 99.98% have not been hospitalized.
PC Bob - I think there is a little more nuance to some of your arguments than you imply, but God bless...you know what you know.
Is this really the America you want to live in? What if it's compelled compliance on something you might NOT agree with? It's short sighted to allow Govt over reach on something you agree with because history shows...this only goes one way.
We are not talking about the government, we are talking about a private venue or musician (i.e., employer) having the right to implement health and safety requirements they see fit. It's actually because different municipalities have different mandates that Isbell and Warren have made these decisions. At an outdoor show it's probably not a high risk, but they feel the need to keep risk low so they can continue to tour and work. And that's their right.
PC Bob - I think there is a little more nuance to some of your arguments than you imply, but God bless...you know what you know.
Ha, ok. I actually don't think it's very complicated.
How this plays out affecting tix sales has my curiosity.
Interesting debate and so forth..... I see both sides. You can throw out facts,figures and numbers to support your claim no matter what side you are on. Just do whats best for you and what you feel is right.
Myself and my wife both work in the medical and with covid patients, me pretty regularly. I have not been vaccinated. Not against, just not ready, and have a few questions/feelings about it.I am sure I will at some point .
One of the local Health networks here in the Indy area have mandated it for employees. I assume others will fall in line sooner or later.
IU Health to implement COVID-19 vaccine mandate for employees
Everyone has a plan, till you get punched in the face,
Not to be a jerk but just curious, are you obligated to tell any patients or people you deal with that you are not vaccinated? I would assume that if you work in the medical field you would have more information about this than the average Joe.
Everything in Moderation. Including Moderation.
I think HIPAA rule is it's not something a medical professional is required to divulge. But patients/people can ask, but the medical professional doesn't need to divulge whether they are or not. The patient can ask to be seen by someone else if it's a concern.
Posting only because it's pertinent to the original topic. Jason Isbell chats with Dr. Fauci:
