What does vaccination status even mean then?
Restaurants who want only vaccinated people? What does that mean, if they aren't testing everyone then they aren't doing anything. If a vaccinated covid positive person walks into that restaurant then their vaccination requirement accomplishes nothing.
Jason Isbell requires vaccination for his shows, if a vaccinated covid positive person walks into that concert exactly what did Jason Isbell's policy do if that person can spread the virus to others?
Because covid positive vaccinated people are going to cancel concerts, I'm just like WTF are we doing here?
Word! Speaking of restaurants...I haven't had a Mario's 'spaghetti salad' in years. Last time was a few years back after a backpack elk hunt. It's a weirdly addicting dish but anything taste great after 10 days of Mt House! There was some gas station type place that served a great burger too.
@buckeye Cool. I'm vaxxed and also staying away from shows.
I don't blame people who don't get vaccinated, I blame people who do nothing.
Also the CDC has known for months it is possible to spread COVID across species, though it is incredibly rare.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/daily-life-coping/animals.html
Deer tend to spread a lot of diseases. The CDC is asking everyone in OH to stop kissing deer for at least a year.
What does vaccination status even mean then?
Restaurants who want only vaccinated people? What does that mean, if they aren't testing everyone then they aren't doing anything. If a vaccinated covid positive person walks into that restaurant then their vaccination requirement accomplishes nothing.
Jason Isbell requires vaccination for his shows, if a vaccinated covid positive person walks into that concert exactly what did Jason Isbell's policy do if that person can spread the virus to others?
Because covid positive vaccinated people are going to cancel concerts, I'm just like WTF are we doing here?
I think you're over-thinking it. It's not like vaccination does nothing, it still keeps people healthy. If a vaccinated covid positive person walks into a restaurant and everyone is vaccinated, everyone is far more likely to stay healthy and the restaurant can remain in business. That's the goal.
What does vaccination status even mean then?
Restaurants who want only vaccinated people? What does that mean, if they aren't testing everyone then they aren't doing anything. If a vaccinated covid positive person walks into that restaurant then their vaccination requirement accomplishes nothing.
Jason Isbell requires vaccination for his shows, if a vaccinated covid positive person walks into that concert exactly what did Jason Isbell's policy do if that person can spread the virus to others?
Because covid positive vaccinated people are going to cancel concerts, I'm just like WTF are we doing here?
I think you're over-thinking it. It's not like vaccination does nothing, it still keeps people healthy. If a vaccinated covid positive person walks into a restaurant and everyone is vaccinated, everyone is far more likely to stay healthy and the restaurant can remain in business. That's the goal.
That’s twice this thread you’ve accused me of over thinking…better than the alternative 😉
I’d contend the vaccinated people in the restaurant are no better off if everyone in that restaurant is vaccinated or 50% of the people are vaccinated.
I’ll continue to pushback against this vaccinated only allowed policy because I don’t think it accomplishes what it implies it does.
if they really wanted to create safety, then test everyone prior to entry and mask everyone regardless of vaccination status. Me or you being vaccinated protects nobody else. It protects ourselves.
@nebish Well, I feel like you doubled back to the narrative that vaccinated people are super-spreading COVID. Vaccines don't 100% prevent spread, but they do reduce transmission. Masks are still recommended as a preventative measure, but vaccines aren't just for ourselves.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02054-z
@nebish Well, I feel like you doubled back to the narrative that vaccinated people are super-spreading COVID. Vaccines don't 100% prevent spread, but they do reduce transmission. Masks are still recommended as a preventative measure, but vaccines aren't just for ourselves.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02054-z
Not super spreaders. But spreaders. I don't think the data is conclusive on how much vaccinated people spread the Delta variant.
Obviously some people are hesitant or fearful of vaccinated people of spreading or there would be no cancellations of events due to vaccinated people testing positive.
I personally do not care if I am around positive people. I don't need to know if they are positive or negative. I still believe in the protections the vaccine affords me.
Just find it disingenuous that vaccinated people are somehow green lighted to do things that unvaccinated people are red lighted from when in fact both those people can spread virus. Finding out who is positive or negative would be much more meaningful than finding out who is vaccinated and who is not.
I'm going to jump out now to not keep restating the same thing over and over. This is my opinion which has been partially shaped by things I have read. I'm not saying I am 100% right or anybody else is 100% wrong. I am questioning and offering a different view.
@nebish I understand where you are coming from, though I disagree. The primary reason the unvaccinated are "red lighted" is to keep hospitals from being overrun, not just for their own protection nor as punishment. In addition we are trying to stop the spread with masks where applicable, all while carrying on with our lives and livelihood as much as possible. It's all in direct conflict, but the guidelines aren't without purpose. Requiring vaccinations for a concert isn't going to stop COVID, but Isbell is trying to protect himself and his crew while they are on the road and I think that's better than doing nothing.
Deer tend to spread a lot of diseases. The CDC is asking everyone in OH to stop kissing deer for at least a year.
Lol. I haven't kissed many (banjo music) but have eaten more than my fair share.
On a serious note. My daughter had Covid last week. We were cat sitting for her, and her cat was sneezing for a few days. Seriously think it had it and it wonder if I'll get round #2. I had a moderate case in Oct and according to my RN wife, they see very few people getting it twice. Last case was an ICU RN who has the vax and just had her 2nd illness last week!
@nebish I understand where you are coming from, though I disagree. The primary reason the unvaccinated are "red lighted" is to keep hospitals from being overrun, not just for their own protection nor as punishment. In addition we are trying to stop the spread with masks where applicable, all while carrying on with our lives and livelihood as much as possible. It's all in direct conflict, but the guidelines aren't without purpose. Requiring vaccinations for a concert isn't going to stop COVID, but Isbell is trying to protect himself and his crew while they are on the road and I think that's better than doing nothing.
That is fine. We don't always have to agree and sometimes reasonable people will never agree.
I fully support local communities, mayors, counties, governors, states, to make whatever guidelines and restrictions they deem appropriate based off of their specific locations and situations. If hospital capacity is limited or exceeded in a certain area, or resources are stretched thin or there big surges in the numbers; By all means, the people who monitor those things and are responsible for those things should make those calls. If hospitals are overrun, then authorities in those areas can and should make whatever regulations are necessary to address that. In areas that hospitals are not overrun, then there may not be a need for similar regulations.
Other people are within their right to require what they want in order to render and offer their services. It's really not their place to do so, not their call, or their duty or their area of expertise to do so. But whatever.
And again, the vaccine protects Isbell and his crew, not isolating him from unvaccinated people.
Covid Perspective 08/23/21: A year ago a friend and I were talking about the virus. At that point, neither of us knew anybody -who knew anybody -who knew anybody that had the Corona Virus. Several weeks later, this friend was in our local ICU dying of Covid. As of today, nearly everybody I know knows someone who has DIED from Covid.
As far as Jason Isbell and company being protected personably -by personal vaccination - I think you might be missing his point. I believe he is (sincerely) concerned over his AUDIENCEs becoming infected by other attendees. I started this thread several weeks ago. Several months ago I bought tickets for an upcoming Jason Isbell show - 9/11 in Birmingham. At the time the case numbers seemed to be dropping - thanks (one would assume) to the success of the vaccination rollout. As showtime nears, I find myself hoping that Jason pulls the plug on this show. Like many southerners - the venue in Birmingham (Oak Mt. Amphitheater) does not subscribe to Jason telling them to require proof of vaccination. If Jason doesn't pull the plug, I'm probably going to just eat the tickets. The numbers of new cases and deaths are much higher down here than a year ago.
Here I go over thinking again; from the CDC:
Fully vaccinated people with Delta variant breakthrough infections can spread the virus to others. However, vaccinated people appear to spread the virus for a shorter time: For prior variants, lower amounts of viral genetic material were found in samples taken from fully vaccinated people who had breakthrough infections than from unvaccinated people with COVID-19. For people infected with the Delta variant, similar amounts of viral genetic material have been found among both unvaccinated and fully vaccinated people. However, like prior variants, the amount of viral genetic material may go down faster in fully vaccinated people when compared to unvaccinated people. This means fully vaccinated people will likely spread the virus for less time than unvaccinated people.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/variants/delta-variant.html
Hopefully that "may" be true that viral genetic material in vaccinated people goes down faster than in unvaccinated people meaning they are contagious less time. However, there is no information to explain what that means. If an unvaccinated person is able to spread the virus for 14 days, then what "less time" can a vaccinated person spread the virus? 10 days? 7 days? It is an inconclusive and unhelpful statement without the proper supporting data. Conceding vaccinated people can spread virus, but not telling us how long a positive vaccinated person can spread it for.
That should be what matters. Are you positive or negative? If anyone really wants to try and do the best they can to keep people safe, find out if the people are carrying virus or not carrying virus. People who are not carrying virus can not spread it. People who are vaccinated and carrying virus unknowingly can spread it. Knowing a test result would be so much more meaningful if anyone was really interested in protecting themselves and others to gain access to events or restrict such access.
I think it's unrealistic for an entire audience to get a COVID test prior to the show. And it's not proof they didn't contract COVID on the way there. But if everyone is vaccinated it's more likely everyone will remain healthy. And I don't think there will ever be a definitive answer on how long you can spread a virus - there are too many variables from person-to-person and environments. Medicine and research can tell us a lot, but not everything is going to be concrete - oncologists give every 6 months, best guess.
This is why I think you are over-thinking this issue. The problem is COVID is making people sick and dead and over-taxing our health care industry. We have a solution: vaccines. They help keep people healthy and help reduce the spread. But the secondary problem is some people are refusing the solution - once the solution became a flu shot, the problem was no longer "just the flu". So we have a solution for them: stay away from crowds so you don't contract or spread COVID.
Simple as that. The Law of Parsimony. Sure, people who are not carrying the virus cannot spread it, but if ever if everyone just got vaccinated, the spread becomes far less of an issue. Isbell is traveling from areas with different regulations but wants to maintain what he believes is a safe environment for his employees through out the tour. Maintaining a safe work environment is within the purview of an employer or facility, like screening for weapons at a ball game or concert. Hopefully the worst thing that will happen to unvaccinated people is they wait a year to see Jason Isbell. Trying to redirect some measure of fault on vaccinated people because unvaccinated people can't go see Jason Isbell seems reverse-engineered, it ignores the basic cause and effect and available solutions.
Going to see Gov't Mule at Boston's Leader Bank North September 9th and they require either proof of vaccination or a recent negative test result.
You don't want to comply? then no Mule for you.
As of today our 11 bed ICU is full. 4covid patients, 3 on vents. None vaxed. All under 60.
they are running out of ICU beds in FLA, TX, and Oregon. They are running out of oxygen tanks in FL and Oregon. Even if you are sick from something else in those locations you might not get care because there aren’t enough beds
all the while people are protesting the vaccine
some are taking a drug they give horses for worms
i don’t get it.
in one guys chart, they asked him why he didn’t get the vax. His answer- because I’m an idiot
I'm reaching the point that I don't care. Why? I am vaccinated, I can provide proof to do anything. I don't want to live in that world, but I don't call the shots and why should I defend something that doesn't effect me?
At some point you just have to say F it. Why keep fighting it. What will be will be. Unvaccinated people will get what they get. Vaccinated people have done what they believe (and I believe) is best for themselves.
If people want to take a horse pill instead of getting the vaccine, well, let them. Who cares? Stupid people do stupid things and get stupid results.
@nebish I'm also vaccinated. My niece (who is a nurse) is also vaccinated but has developed a pretty nasty "break through" case. Big-time NCAA (SEC) football starts this weekend. The states who have SEC teams have the LOWEST number of vaccines in the nation. For the most part they play in the biggest stadiums - all home games sold out for the season (in most cases). I think the initial news of the vax roll-out caused unbridled optimism and wishful thinking. Possibly a recipe for a national health disaster.
Locally - schools and county government shut-down. My little community is in the top-10 of Covid hot beds in the world.
We can do our individual parts in fighting the pandemic - or we can accept this as a war of attrition. Last healthy person standing wins.
Yeah, I just gave those Jason Isbell tickets away.
I care because the unvaxed are using medical resources
health Care workers are burning out. Fewer are getting sick now that we have PPE and vaccines but they are leaving the work force
i care because the vax helps but doesn’t make you bulletproof- I’m not seeing TTB at the Orpheum and just cancelled a vacation to Oregon ( ground zero after Florida).
it’s about public health. What’s worse is that the unvaxed are less likely to wear masks (there actually is data showing this)
I mean I don't care to defend the unvaccinated any longer. They can defend themselves.
Everyone here has raised very real, fair and worrisome points. I hope sometimes, perhaps, I had one or two as well. It's odd for me who is vaccinated and believe in the vaccines to at the same time argue against some of the restrictions and guidelines - it's because I think there are some misrepresentations of what certain restrictions and guidelines will do and how much they will help as they are being promoted.
Ultimately, the people who are not vaccinated can fight for themselves and make their own case. I don't want to have to show my card, but I can. The issues unvaccinated people might have attending events doesn't concern me because I'll be inside, they can say why they should be in from the outside.
Unless one can prove undeniable medical reasons for not vaccinating - I have no pity or sympathy for them.
I've mentioned a dear friend many times during this pandemic. He will not get vaccinated and can give no good or logical reason why not. He will not admit that his choice is based purely on his (nowadays) conservative politics. Funny thing that you just can't make up: last week, former POTUS Donny Trump spoke in Cullman, AL (one of Alabama's long-time hangouts for people wearing sheets and coned hats). To his credit - he actually urged the crowd to seek vaccines. He was actually booed by his audience! The monster that he's created has bitten him on his arse!
Some of the hard-core conservatives (read EVANGELICALS) have actually stated that the vaccine is, "the mark (work) of the Devil". There's a viral pandemic that's killed thousands ... and they see the vaccine as the work of Satan? This is not only ludicrous, it is totally backwards!
I know a lady who teaches art lessons to children who is one of these insane Evangelicals espousing such nonsense. To the surprise of nobody - she has contracted Covid. Not only has she refused to even consider that she has probably passed the virus on to children (who took it home with them) - she is one of those types who is taking horse medicine for a cure. While I do wish and pray for her recovery, I know that should she be spared - she is going to credit her recovery to everything from her faith in God to horse medicine and foil hats. Again - not wishing bad on her, but if she dies from this virus I'll have to say that she got what she bargained for.
@bill_graham No Mule for me and no $150 bucks for them. Wife and I are fully vaxxed but I believe in right to choose and following the science and this imposition of an additional health check requirement beyond what CDC recommends (outdoor masking and such) and beyond what Mass mandates seems like nothing more than a silly attempt to virtue signal their extra "wokeness" and authoritarian over reach. If the situation is as dire as we are being led to believe,then perhaps they should cancel the tour. Absolutely Mule's right to take this stand and absolutely my right to vote with my feet. Still America last time I checked...Plenty of great seats still available! Enjoy the show!!
Let me rant for another second or two. I can't believe the willingness of those who refuse to mask or vaccinate to enter largely attended events - be they indoors or outdoors. To me, this is the acme of human selfishness. This pandemic should've runs its course by now. The only way it spreads and continues to exist is via human hosting/transportation. If you ain't part of the solution - you are most certainly part of the problem. As Pogo once said, "we have met the enemy and they is us."
UPDATE: The people I gave the Jason Isbell tickets to ... have given them to someone else.
Here's one for baseball fans and one I find interesting. These two seem like good guys but...
https://sports.yahoo.com/john-smoltz-al-leiter-mlb-network-studios-vaccine-refusal-023024986.html
Everything in Moderation. Including Moderation.
@rusty guessing you probably didn't have any problem with Obama's Mratha's Vinyard party.
Just a guess. Go ahead and denounce it. Prove me wrong. If so, I apologize for making an unfounded announcement.
Assumption.
@fitzy77 From the get-go I have tried to convince people that this virus doesn't give a rat's derriere about political party affiliation or whether it's an indoor or outdoor event. For the most part (statistically) everybody seems to think that they, their political party or their event (sports, concerts - even church) are somehow immune to Covid. I don't know the situation where you live, but if you do a Google search - Covid in Georgia - and scroll to the map that reflects numbers of current cases and deaths - you'll find that I live in the hotbed of the planet. FYI - I put Obama's garden party (and I'm actually unaware of what this is/was) in the same class as Trump's rally in north Alabama a couple of weeks ago - where he was BOOED by his own flock for strongly recommending vaccines. We can beat Covid but EVERYBODY has to do their part.
I could very well be wrong as I am increasingly falling out of the news cycle, but I thought that Obama party got canceled?
@rusty sorry if I made an assumption although the fact that you know all about Trump's rally but haven't heard much about Obama's birthday party does tell me which news outlets you are watching. Serious question, can you send me any scientific data on the risk of outdoor asymptomatic spread to vaccinated individuals. Not Fauci and Wallensky "saying" it. Actual data. Not sure it is feasible goal to "beat" or eradicate COVID 19. Thought is it will mutate into more transmissible but weaker viruses as all similar COVID viruses. In other words, it eventually starts looking more like the common cold or seasonal flu over time. I am very skeptical of the information coming out of Fauci/Wallensky for a couple of reasons. They never ever ever mention natural infection immunity as a contributor to herd immunity. They endlessly imply that 100% vaccination is the only path. We are also starting to hear that natural infection immunity might actually be stronger and last longer than vaccine immunity. And now we are being led towards another booster which will mean another nice payday for Pfizer. Starts "feeling" like the primary goal is to get that jab into everyone's arm..by hook or crook..someone correct me if I am wrong, but the risk of death to children under 12 from COVID absent significant comorbidities is about equal to getting killed by a lightning strike. But we let kids go outside when it's raining. And when we censor all divergent opinions as "misinformation" (as adjudicated as such by a bunch of woke 27 year olds in Silicon Valley) rather than defeat them through better science....yeah...I'm a little skeptical. Finally, I don't like the Government telling me what to do. Pave the roads and keep the peace. If you are going to tell me what to do, you better have a VERY sound scientist basis. Would also like to hear Fauci talk about obesity. One of the top comorbities associated with a bad outcome from COVID but all you ever hear is endless pontificating on masks and the jab....kind of feels like they are conveniently leaving a lot of very relevant stuff out.
I could very well be wrong as I am increasingly falling out of the news cycle, but I thought that Obama party got canceled?
It was for vaccinated people only and held outside - after some worries about the Delta variant and some criticism it was downsized from about 500 people to 200.
