Trying to keep your employees and musicians safe and healthy so they can continue to keep working isn't comparable to lending a hand to a lone person in distress.
Point being, it makes no difference to me who is vaccinated and who is not. However, there is this growing sentiment that if a person isn't vaccinated then FU. Is a person in need worthy of helping if they are unvaccinated? Probably depends who you ask. Screw those unvaccinated no good people. I got vaccinated, that is me protecting myself - are the employees and musicians you speak of vaccinated? If so, they have the benefits of it's protection. But that isn't good enough, now everyone around the people who are vaccinated must all be vaccinated.
No one said a person in need should be ignored because they are not vaccinated. Come on, that doesn't relate to safety at public shows.
The point being, people have a right to refuse the vaccine, but that might close some doors to them in the short term. Obviously it doesn't close the door to getting aid when in distress, that's a total straw man.
There is genuine cause to be frustrated with people who refuse to do anything to counter COVID yet want to go to concerts and ball games. Especially by medical professionals who are working around the clock because of their decision. It's not just choose your own adventure for the anti-vaxxers, their decisions have consequences. It slows recovery, which interrupts peoples' livelihoods. This is the only country that has a bizarre, stubborn, baseless push-back against the vaccines. If everyone just got one, we wouldn't need to discuss vaxx cards at shows.
Let's find out, @Rusty, if you knew a broken down motorist was anit-vax, would you give them a ride?
@nebish It probably depends on time of day, whether the individual had a cell phone and how near they were to a repair garage. I do keep a box of KN95 masks in my car - which I would offer to said stranded motorist. If he/she were willing to wear the mask, of course I'd help.
And FYI - I'd have the same amount of compassion and mercy for anybody who contracted Covid. I am no fan of human suffering at any level. Having said that, anybody who refuses a vaccine or mask - based on non-medical reasoning or politics - and contracts the virus will likely get far less sympathy from me. Don't bid on an auction that you do not want to win.
@Rusty, you have illustrated your position well. I interpreted much frustration and anger towards unvaccinated people and thought you might answer differently, but you have shown you are above the hate. I have members of my own family who are privately hoping that people who are unvaccinated to get really sick to teach them a lesson. It's crazy. I just think for me, I will treat everyone the same, whether they are vaccinated or not. It makes absolutely no difference, of course others are entitled to have a different view. I still think that unvaccinated people should be able to do the same things that vaccinated people can. This is Isbell's right, or the venue's right or an employers right - me personally I don't like the track it puts us on for further division among us (as if that were possible at this point).
Vaccination doesn't always mean green light. My brother-in-law and sister-in-law are currently quarantining because they were tested at work and were positive despite being vaccinated. They had no idea they had it.
So Isbell wants proof of vaccination to attend shows, what does that really mean? How many vaccinated people might be entering with virus in their system?
@nebish I don't know what Jason Isbell's goals or ideas are. Hopefully, he is just trying to do his part in minimizing the spread. Cynically, one could imagine that he's trying to cover his own hide in the event of lawsuits from those who might've contracted Covid at one of his shows. Personally, I admire his stance and bravery to speak up. This will likely cost him a few fans. I think his request is earnest and correct.
As I said earlier (probably a dozen times) in my area (southeast Georgia) - we are currently one of (if not THE) hottest Covid infection areas in the entire world. WORLD. I said WORLD. This isn't a bunch of 90-somethings dying off in nursing homes this time. School children are filling up our ER and ICU. When I hear defeatist phrases (we CAN'T win the war on Covid ...) I guess I do get a little rattled. I don't know if you ever played sports at any level - but any coach worth his own salt will give you a swift kick in your southside for expressing a negative attitude like this. CAN'T lives on WON'T Street. You CAN'T win if you WON'T try. It's a simple as that. If everybody on a team gives 100% effort - David can beat Goliath.
Damn. Said I wasn't going to rant anymore.
I may have posted this before but when I was a security officer for The Bank of America I heard everything under the sun for why they didn't have a mask. Most of this was pre-vaccination.
Oh, I left it in my truck.
So go get it.
Oh mine is up on the 35th floor where I'm working. I'll get it when I'm up there.
No you won't because I can't let you in the building. You came in with your buddy so make him go up there and bring it to you.
I didn't know I needed one.
That was my favorite. Really? Too bad. You still can't come in.
Like Rusty I kept several in my bag because I figured this was going to happen. But why should I buy them due to their stupidity?
We had a few extras in the lobby (not a ton) but then I had to get an extra officer bring me one. Usually I just gave them one depending on how much of a dick they were being to me.
Everything in Moderation. Including Moderation.
Again, vaccines don't completely stop transmission, they mitigate symptoms. The purpose of excluding unvaxxed people is to stop the spread to them and other unhealthy or at-risk people. Now, you might say, that's their right, but remember the greater purpose has always been to keep ICUs from going over capacity. Also, if you're vaxxed, you still don't want to get COVID if you can help it. I don't really think about un-vaxxed people either, but nurses sure do, and I can understand their anger and frustration after a long day treating a person who had free access to avoid a tube down their throat.
I don't really know if vax verification cards are the way to go, but I can appreciate the effort to keep the event healthy for the traveling musicians and the employees. A positive COVID test, regardless of symptoms, means you get sent home to quarantine by most businesses. Our vet, who had a strict mask policy, recently closed for a week due to a wave of COVID cases. A vax is such a small thing to ask to avoid messing up other peoples' lives and wellfare.
I don't wish COVID on anyone, but I have less sympathy for a person who insists on having all options available while ignoring the consequences of their decision. You can't make a person get a meningitis vax, but they probably aren't going to get to attend college. No one ever questioned this.
No vax? Fine. Stay home for a while or wear a mask. It's just frustrating to hear people claim their petulance in the name of "liberty". I'll always remember when COVID first hit the US, that mom in Wyoming who got herself arrested by demanding to be able to play in the park with her kids. We don't get to do anything and everything we want to do.
Remember, the policy is Vax or negative test. You have a choice.
neither is a guarantee, but it puts the odds of a spreader event waaaay down
you don’t want a vax? I disagree, but then please act responsibly and respect the health of others
Yes, we know that vaccination does not prevent infection, it largely prevents the impacts of infection.
Vaccination also does not prevent spread. Vaccinated people with asymptomatic cases of covid can spread the virus, especially Delta.
So then why aren't we all wearing masks again then, if the intent is really to protect everyone to the highest extent possible?
Vaccinated people do not need to wear a mask - but vaccinated people can spread covid...masks protect others more than it protects the person wearing the mask. So maskless vaccinated people can very well be spreading virus unknowingly.
So what really is the difference if vaccinated people can spread Delta at the same rate as an unvaccinated person, requiring proof of vaccination does what exactly?
You have a point. I continue to wear a mask indoors and choose not to go to indoor shows or eat inside restaurants. Part of my reasoning is that my wife is only partially vaxxed. She had a neurologic reaction after 1st Moderna and her docs are still not sure where to go from here. We want her to get another shot of something but not sure what, nor what the implications would be. I think I would still be conservative regardless because of my job and what I see at work, but obviously that's conjecture on my part.
I see it as a matter of percentages, vaccinated people are much less likely to be infected and spread. Admittedly, we don't understand the full picture.
Taking it a step further, by only having an event with vaccinated people (or those who test negative, but a vaccinated person will not choose to get a test since if they are vaccinated with proof that is good enough for entry) - only having an event with vaccinated individuals does not make those individuals more safe because both vaccinated and unvaccinated people can carry and spread virus and since the vaccinated people have a level of protection, I don't see it as really mattering much if a vaccinated person is around unvaccinated people. Some exceptions to the rule will always apply, and like you say, it can be looked at as percentages, or odds of what the likelihood of a bad outcome may or may not and risk assessment. It might feel better mentally for those in attendance and look better superficially for promotion and self-righteousness, however in reality, all it does it exclude unvaccinated people and categorize them into a subclass or less desirable people. Vaccinated people can be around unvaccinated people with mostly all the same outcomes that are present if vaccinated people are only around other vaccinated people.
Now, what porkchopbob said, really the only benefit of having vaccinated only events is to protect the unvaccinated, but even more importantly, it is to keep the strain and stress down on the hospital systems. That is what the narrative should be. Not that we only want vaccinated people to attend to keep the people at the event safe. They are already as safe as they can get regardless of who they come in contact with.
@nebish I don't know what Jason Isbell's goals or ideas are. Hopefully, he is just trying to do his part in minimizing the spread. Cynically, one could imagine that he's trying to cover his own hide in the event of lawsuits from those who might've contracted Covid at one of his shows. .
I wasn't going to post again either but was wondering when someone was going to get here...
Unless you are wearing a medical grade mask, WORN PROPERLY, masks are nothing but virtue signaling. The vacc is NOT working and quite possibly making things worse and increasing mutations.
The 60's was all about pushing back against the "man" and big govt, my body my choice, don't trust anyone over 30, freedom etc. Nothing says Rock n' Roll like blind compliance and a face diaper. geeze....
The vacc is NOT working and quite possibly making things worse and increasing mutations.
Not accurate.
@buckeye I did say, "CYNICALLY", and "IMAGINE" . I also said that I believe that Jason's doing the right thing and that I support his decision.
@nebish I don't know what Jason Isbell's goals or ideas are. Hopefully, he is just trying to do his part in minimizing the spread. Cynically, one could imagine that he's trying to cover his own hide in the event of lawsuits from those who might've contracted Covid at one of his shows. .
I wasn't going to post again either but was wondering when someone was going to get here...
Unless you are wearing a medical grade mask, WORN PROPERLY, masks are nothing but virtue signaling. The vacc is NOT working and quite possibly making things worse and increasing mutations.
The 60's was all about pushing back against the "man" and big govt, my body my choice, don't trust anyone over 30, freedom etc. Nothing says Rock n' Roll like blind compliance and a face diaper. geeze....
Both your assumptions are false.
1. Masks even if not N95 medical grade have been shown to help prevent transmission.
2. Mutations happen when a virus replicates and are not the result of vaccinations. This is why we need to get new and different flu vaccinations every year.
Not getting immunized contributes to mutations more than those immunized as immunization can help slow the transmission of the virus. While there have been breakthrough positive COVID cases, Immunization works in that it can prevent replication in the immunized to the level they can't transmit the virus. It also prevents serious infections requiring hospitalization. 99% of the individuals now requiring hospitalization here in the US are people not immunized.
The more virulent Delta variant that is causing the current spike in infections originated in India which did not have mass vaccinations. Same with the other variants from S. Africa and Brazil. The variants existed before large scale vaccinations so blaming their existence on vaccinations is a false premise.
The vaccines do indeed work if we know what their intention is. They don't always prevent infection, the breakthrough. However, they most certainly prevent serious disease and illness, not in everyone, but in almost everyone, in the high 90% rate. Now, as I think more evidence is revealing, they do not prevent transmission with the Delta variant. Still, even if vaccinated people become infected (although not ill) and transmit the virius to other vaccinated people, there is substantial net gain in being vaccinated.
Some of the points I have tried to make are not an attack on the vaccinations themselves or the benefits and worth in them. Instead it is how the people who choose not to be vaccinated are discriminated against; plus the fact that prohibiting unvaccinated people doesn't necessarily keep the vaccinated people safer as is being suggested. It is the vaccine in one's body (or natural immunity) that keeps a person safe, not keeping them away from unvaccinated people.
Instead it is how the people who choose not to be vaccinated are discriminated against; plus the fact that prohibiting unvaccinated people doesn't necessarily keep the vaccinated people safer as is being suggested. It is the vaccine in one's body (or natural immunity) that keeps a person safe, not keeping them away from unvaccinated people.
It's not "discrimination", that indicates a prejudice. It's a consequence of their decision. People who refuse to get meningitis vaxx are not allowed to attend most colleges or live in dorms. People who refuse to wear hair nets are not allowed to work in a restaurant kitchen. It's not discrimination, it's about trying to maintain the healthiest environment for the public.
Barring unvaccinated people from certain public spaces (concerts, indoor dining) helps keep them out of ICUs thus allowing medical staff to better treat those with other ailments. If everyone in the room is vaccinated, everyone is more likely to remain healthy and COVID-free. It's still possible to spread COVID among vaccinated people, but the likelihood is far less and thus the threat to their health.
The vaccines do indeed work if we know what their intention is. They don't always prevent infection, the breakthrough. However, they most certainly prevent serious disease and illness, not in everyone, but in almost everyone, in the high 90% rate. Now, as I think more evidence is revealing, they do not prevent transmission with the Delta variant. Still, even if vaccinated people become infected (although not ill) and transmit the virius to other vaccinated people, there is substantial net gain in being vaccinated.
Some of the points I have tried to make are not an attack on the vaccinations themselves or the benefits and worth in them. Instead it is how the people who choose not to be vaccinated are discriminated against; plus the fact that prohibiting unvaccinated people doesn't necessarily keep the vaccinated people safer as is being suggested. It is the vaccine in one's body (or natural immunity) that keeps a person safe, not keeping them away from unvaccinated people.
I understand your argument Nebish but I feel the unvaccinated do impact the lives of the vaccinated.
All of us in my family are vaccinated so I am not concerned with serious health issues but all of us can still test positive for COVID. This will impact my daughter's in that they will not be able to attend high school, which starts in person next week, for 10 days impacting their learning and setting them back.
My wife works for the Airlines as a flight attendant and gets tested weekly. If she tests positive she can not work and loses money as she would have to quarantine for 10 days. I work from home so not a big impact for me.
And even though vaccinated, and people may not have a serious condition, we can still suffer mild flu like symptoms that impact our lives if we get a breakout infection. I am big Yankee fan and was surprised to read Gerritt Cole suffered a breakout infection and had flu symptoms for several days.
I understand if someone does not want to get vaccinated for health reasons, such as preexisting conditions, or even religious beliefs but other than that if they don't want to do what is in the best interests of the general public than I have no problem with them being "discriminated" against and being excluded from public activities.
To me it is similar to the smoking ban in public places. If you smoke your are prohibited from smoking in public restaurants and other places as you expose others to conditions that could impact their health.
You don't want to get vaccinated then you lose certain privileges. I don't view this as discrimination but rather common sense precautions for better good of others. JMO and YMMV.
The vaccines do indeed work if we know what their intention is. They don't always prevent infection, the breakthrough. However, they most certainly prevent serious disease and illness, not in everyone, but in almost everyone, in the high 90% rate. Now, as I think more evidence is revealing, they do not prevent transmission with the Delta variant. Still, even if vaccinated people become infected (although not ill) and transmit the virius to other vaccinated people, there is substantial net gain in being vaccinated.
Some of the points I have tried to make are not an attack on the vaccinations themselves or the benefits and worth in them. Instead it is how the people who choose not to be vaccinated are discriminated against; plus the fact that prohibiting unvaccinated people doesn't necessarily keep the vaccinated people safer as is being suggested. It is the vaccine in one's body (or natural immunity) that keeps a person safe, not keeping them away from unvaccinated people.
nebish, you seem like a very reasonable person. This debate borders on arguing the existence of God. Those with strong opinions on either side are unlikely to be swayed. My concern about personal liberty mirros what you espouse above. The country is divided enough and we don't need another category of hyphenated-American. Do what you feel is right and live your life. History is filled with examples of how 'show your papers' goes very very wrong in the end
The vaccines do indeed work if we know what their intention is. They don't always prevent infection, the breakthrough. However, they most certainly prevent serious disease and illness, not in everyone, but in almost everyone, in the high 90% rate. Now, as I think more evidence is revealing, they do not prevent transmission with the Delta variant. Still, even if vaccinated people become infected (although not ill) and transmit the virius to other vaccinated people, there is substantial net gain in being vaccinated.
Some of the points I have tried to make are not an attack on the vaccinations themselves or the benefits and worth in them. Instead it is how the people who choose not to be vaccinated are discriminated against; plus the fact that prohibiting unvaccinated people doesn't necessarily keep the vaccinated people safer as is being suggested. It is the vaccine in one's body (or natural immunity) that keeps a person safe, not keeping them away from unvaccinated people.
nebish, you seem like a very reasonable person. This debate borders on arguing the existence of God. Those with strong opinions on either side are unlikely to be swayed. My concern about personal liberty mirros what you espouse above. The country is divided enough and we don't need another category of hyphenated-American. Do what you feel is right and live your life. History is filled with examples of how 'show your papers' goes very very wrong in the end
With all due respect to your opinion, no is doesn't as the existence of God is based on faith not science while benefits of vaccinations are based on facts and science. I am sorry but personal freedoms end when it impacts the well being of the population.
Do what you feel is right and live your life.
Liberty doesn't mean you get to do anything you want to do. Visas and Universities require a number of vaccinations for the sake of public health. It's not personal, it's not discriminatory, and it's not complicated.
The vaccines do indeed work if we know what their intention is. They don't always prevent infection, the breakthrough. However, they most certainly prevent serious disease and illness, not in everyone, but in almost everyone, in the high 90% rate. Now, as I think more evidence is revealing, they do not prevent transmission with the Delta variant. Still, even if vaccinated people become infected (although not ill) and transmit the virius to other vaccinated people, there is substantial net gain in being vaccinated.
Some of the points I have tried to make are not an attack on the vaccinations themselves or the benefits and worth in them. Instead it is how the people who choose not to be vaccinated are discriminated against; plus the fact that prohibiting unvaccinated people doesn't necessarily keep the vaccinated people safer as is being suggested. It is the vaccine in one's body (or natural immunity) that keeps a person safe, not keeping them away from unvaccinated people.
nebish, you seem like a very reasonable person. This debate borders on arguing the existence of God. Those with strong opinions on either side are unlikely to be swayed. My concern about personal liberty mirros what you espouse above. The country is divided enough and we don't need another category of hyphenated-American. Do what you feel is right and live your life. History is filled with examples of how 'show your papers' goes very very wrong in the end
With all due respect to your opinion, no is doesn't as the existence of God is based on faith not science while benefits of vaccinations are based on facts and science. I am sorry but personal freedoms end when it impacts the well being of the population.
You have faith in rna technology and I prefer to stay non-gmo so I stand by my analogy.
Do what you feel is right and live your life.
Liberty doesn't mean you get to do anything you want to do. Visas and Universities require a number of vaccinations for the sake of public health. It's not personal, it's not discriminatory, and it's not complicated.
You’re absolutely right, should we place the “vaccinated” sign next to the “whites only” drinking fountain. You are too blind and ignorant of history to see where this headed.
Do what you feel is right and live your life.
Liberty doesn't mean you get to do anything you want to do. Visas and Universities require a number of vaccinations for the sake of public health. It's not personal, it's not discriminatory, and it's not complicated.
You’re absolutely right, should we place the “vaccinated” sign next to the “whites only” drinking fountain. You are too blind and ignorant of history to see where this headed.
False equivalency, you are twisting history or don't understand it. To compare those affected by mild health regulations based on their choice with the victims of racial discrimination is an insult to the latter. Here's some history for you: Vaccination requirements are commonplace at businesses, schools, countries, etc, for the past century and they haven't affected anyone's liberty or caused segregation. People who don't want to get vaccinated can make that choice and accept the consequences of watching Jason Isbell from home or ordering delivery. Boo hoo.
The vaccines do indeed work if we know what their intention is. They don't always prevent infection, the breakthrough. However, they most certainly prevent serious disease and illness, not in everyone, but in almost everyone, in the high 90% rate. Now, as I think more evidence is revealing, they do not prevent transmission with the Delta variant. Still, even if vaccinated people become infected (although not ill) and transmit the virius to other vaccinated people, there is substantial net gain in being vaccinated.
Some of the points I have tried to make are not an attack on the vaccinations themselves or the benefits and worth in them. Instead it is how the people who choose not to be vaccinated are discriminated against; plus the fact that prohibiting unvaccinated people doesn't necessarily keep the vaccinated people safer as is being suggested. It is the vaccine in one's body (or natural immunity) that keeps a person safe, not keeping them away from unvaccinated people.
nebish, you seem like a very reasonable person. This debate borders on arguing the existence of God. Those with strong opinions on either side are unlikely to be swayed. My concern about personal liberty mirros what you espouse above. The country is divided enough and we don't need another category of hyphenated-American. Do what you feel is right and live your life. History is filled with examples of how 'show your papers' goes very very wrong in the end
With all due respect to your opinion, no is doesn't as the existence of God is based on faith not science while benefits of vaccinations are based on facts and science. I am sorry but personal freedoms end when it impacts the well being of the population.
You have faith in rna technology and I prefer to stay non-gmo so I stand by my analogy.
I put my faith in science mate. Vaccines have virtually eliminated many diseases that have plagued mankind. Polio, smallpox, measles, etc., so the effectiveness has history and science to prove they are real and work.
Again your analogy is a strawman argument as religion has nothing to do with science based medicine .
That being said if you are not vaccinated and refuse to wear a mask I wish you good luck and good health as COVID seems a terrible way to die.
At this point right now, I am pretty sure I know more people who have recently tested positive for covid than at any other single point before. 5. 3 were vaccinated, 2 are children. 1 of the 3 vaccinated was admitted to hospital and was on oxygen but has since been discharged (old and unhealthy person). I had mentioned the other 2 as my brother-in-law and sister-in-law who are fine.
The parents of the children have taken so many precautions over the last 1.5 years and it is unfortunate that their kids have tested positive.
Lots of talk about how people get it, where it came from which usually boils down to discussions on the unvaccinated people they know.
I really believe that people are going to have to change this narrative because it is very possible that vaccinated people are spreading virus and if the data continues to bear that out, all this focus on the unvaccinated not being allowed to go places and do things will not have the desired effect of keeping transmission down.
Data from COVID-19 tests in the United States, the United Kingdom and Singapore are showing that vaccinated people who become infected with Delta SARS-CoV-2 can carry as much virus in their nose as do unvaccinated people. This means that despite the protection offered by vaccines, a proportion of vaccinated people can pass on Delta, possibly aiding its rise.
“People who have a Delta virus and happen to have ‘breakthrough’ infections can carry these really high levels of virus, and can unwittingly spread the virus to others,” says David O’Connor, a virologist at the University of Wisconsin–Madison.
At this point right now, I am pretty sure I know more people who have recently tested positive for covid than at any other single point before. 5. 3 were vaccinated, 2 are children. 1 of the 3 vaccinated was admitted to hospital and was on oxygen but has since been discharged (old and unhealthy person). I had mentioned the other 2 as my brother-in-law and sister-in-law who are fine.
The parents of the children have taken so many precautions over the last 1.5 years and it is unfortunate that their kids have tested positive.
Lots of talk about how people get it, where it came from which usually boils down to discussions on the unvaccinated people they know.
I really believe that people are going to have to change this narrative because it is very possible that vaccinated people are spreading virus and if the data continues to bear that out, all this focus on the unvaccinated not being allowed to go places and do things will not have the desired effect of keeping transmission down.
Data from COVID-19 tests in the United States, the United Kingdom and Singapore are showing that vaccinated people who become infected with Delta SARS-CoV-2 can carry as much virus in their nose as do unvaccinated people. This means that despite the protection offered by vaccines, a proportion of vaccinated people can pass on Delta, possibly aiding its rise.
“People who have a Delta virus and happen to have ‘breakthrough’ infections can carry these really high levels of virus, and can unwittingly spread the virus to others,” says David O’Connor, a virologist at the University of Wisconsin–Madison.
Good read , thanks!
Everyone has a plan, till you get punched in the face,
I really believe that people are going to have to change this narrative because it is very possible that vaccinated people are spreading virus and if the data continues to bear that out, all this focus on the unvaccinated not being allowed to go places and do things will not have the desired effect of keeping transmission down.
I think you're overthinking this. Yes, vaccinated people should still be wearing masks indoors to mitigate the spread - I believe the CDC has continued to recommend this. Many vaccinated people stopped wearing masks indoors, especially after states stopped enforcing the mandates. It's always been assumed that the virus can spread among vaccinated people, this doesn't create a new narrative. The solution is available, to get vaccinated and protect yourself. That's why there's a focus on the unvaccinated, they are complicating the recovery - which not just health, but economic as well. Many are refusing to do anything (vaxx, mask, stay home) to move forward and they are ending up in ICUs because of their decision. You can't have it all, it's either/or.
People who refuse to pick up a bucket of water to stop a house from burning might not part of the problem, but they are not part of the solution.
