To be honest my feeling are and always have been indifferent to the RNRHOF. I really do not need a "Hall of" to tell me what bands are great That Hall of Fame is in my head!!

My only beef with it is that I think it should be more elitist . They let way to many bands and musicians in. It should be the best of the best. It gets to watered down and will eventually mean nothing. Maybe I will get in someday for my current reworking of a Zep classic into an acoustic version!

[Edited on 1/16/2020 by jszfunk]

I know that rap / hip hop have dominated the charts for years now, maybe the last 2 decades if not more, so I guess the genre does merit representation; I am just so ignorant about it that I could not say which rapper is really more important than others.

In the world of rock, I have always found the Doobies to be a second-tier band. Obviously that is pure personal opinion; I just don't see them reaching the level of innovation, influence, or excellence as Zepp, Stones, Floyd, etc. I also do not know their deep cuts, so I might be way off on that. I know Skunk is a beast on guitar.

I do know that it will be very tough to arrange the all-star jam at the end of THIS particular HOF ceremony. Lol. Methinks "Johnny B. Goode" led by Trent Reznor and the Depeche boys might not cut it.

Can't quite figure out the HOF. They finally let Yes in in 2017, but letting these artists in before Jethro Tull; who's still waiting, isn't right.

It gets to watered down and will eventually mean nothing.

LOL That ship sailed long ago. But it is great to tear them to pieces annually.

I am just so ignorant about it that I could not say which rapper is really more important than others.

Allow me to help out. LOL

Rap can only be based on sales as very few tour. Smart ones hook up with a hot wife and co-tour and actually have some real musicians.

But it is pretty much sales. Most of it during rap's prime were Single sales.

Each year they let in artists who have had sales averaging less than a million over their careers. Many of the Top Rap artists of that era have not come up for Induction so logic dictates that they all get it. And they will as it is very PC. They fear rejecting one of the rappers. Influence is always the reasoning which is ridiculous. In the years since it began, there has not been much change in Rap music. To claim each rapper had a huge influence is like claiming every rock band had a major influence.

Now translate that to the rock of the 60s - through the 80s - Based on similar sales hundreds of bands should be included.

Some of the bands that they sailed right past Inducting like Motorhead,and Thin Lizzy blow those numbers away. And we haven't even brought up touring for 40 years and ticket sales attached.

So basically every band has the right to claim HOF status whether they are ever Inducted or not.

Influence is always the reasoning which is ridiculous. In the years since it began, there has not been much change in Rap music. To claim each rapper had a huge influence is like claiming every rock band had a major influence.

You know I love ya man, and you also know how much I respect your experience in the music business, but this is pretty much just genre-bias. You just hate rap. 😉

Now, could you please check the Neil Peart thread?

POP MUSIC HALL OF FAME! "Rock and Roll'? You mean that musical form that died after (about) 1979?
With the exception of the Doobies, none of these nominees make a sound that remotely resembles Rock and Roll.

I would trade Whitney for Pat Benetar in a NY minute

Influence is always the reasoning which is ridiculous. In the years since it began, there has not been much change in Rap music. To claim each rapper had a huge influence is like claiming every rock band had a major influence.

You know I love ya man, and you also know how much I respect your experience in the music business, but this is pretty much just genre-bias. You just hate rap. 😉

Now, could you please check the Neil Peart thread?

I will.

Hey some rappers have to get in. But with the manner that they Inducted people, they have to Induct all of them. I can list a dozen who have careers out doing Big. So a band like Jethro Tull will not get in but a rapper with nowhere near the success will. Whether I like rap or not - they put themselves in a corner regarding rap.

If not for the shooting, this guy never gains entry. But attached to Tupac and all that nonsense, he gets in for all the wrong reasons.

Now if Ian Anderson had whacked Jon Anderson then Yes and Tull would have been in ages ago. LOL

I was hoping Soundgarden would get in and eventually maybe they will. Their resume ended up being kind of brief, as great as I think they were.

POP MUSIC HALL OF FAME! "Rock and Roll'? You mean that musical form that died after (about) 1979?
With the exception of the Doobies, none of these nominees make a sound that remotely resembles Rock and Roll.

That sums up the problem in a way I hadn't heard before. The thing is, since this Hall opened it's been inducting great artists who didn't make rock music but were influences on rock or kind of rock-adjacent in some way. So in that way it would be a little strange if they didn't end up inducting newer artists who also didn't make rock music. It's inevitable whether or not it makes a lot of musical sense. Hip hop has been the most popular form of music in the US for around 20 years - with pretty clear influence on other genres, including rock - so that means more hip hop artists in this Hall. On the other hand if you think about this as a pop music Hall of Fame the lack of female artists and the emphasis on white artists seems even worse than it already is. So yes, they're fitting a few of the biggest hip hop acts in history in there just like they've got some third- or maybe fourth-tier classic rock bands.

I know that rap / hip hop have dominated the charts for years now, maybe the last 2 decades if not more, so I guess the genre does merit representation; I am just so ignorant about it that I could not say which rapper is really more important than others.

I don't know Biggie's music as well as I should based on my age because I wasn't listening to much hip hop at the time he died. But he's one of the handful of most famous rappers of the 90's and helped take the genre to the mainstream. He had some huge hits and he was good at what he did. He released one album in his lifetime and his second came out right after he died; combined they've sold 17 million copies, which is... more than one or two big singles.

In the years since it began, there has not been much change in Rap music.

Even a person who hypothetically hated rap and knew nothing about it - but still somehow thought he was in position to judge its evolution (?) - would probably be to tell that Run-DMC doesn't sound that much like Kendrick Lamar. The style of rapping, the sampling, it just doesn't sound much alike.

[Edited on 1/16/2020 by Marley]

Happy for the Doobies. Depeche Mode wasn't my cup of tea but I thought they'd get in and deserved it.

Will be interesting to see which Doobie members get inducted. There were a LOT of them between 1970-1981, some for just short periods.

It gets to watered down and will eventually mean nothing.

LOL That ship sailed long ago. But it is great to tear them to pieces annually.

I am just so ignorant about it that I could not say which rapper is really more important than others.

Allow me to help out. LOL

Rap can only be based on sales as very few tour. Smart ones hook up with a hot wife and co-tour and actually have some real musicians.

But it is pretty much sales. Most of it during rap's prime were Single sales.

Each year they let in artists who have had sales averaging less than a million over their careers. Many of the Top Rap artists of that era have not come up for Induction so logic dictates that they all get it. And they will as it is very PC. They fear rejecting one of the rappers. Influence is always the reasoning which is ridiculous. In the years since it began, there has not been much change in Rap music. To claim each rapper had a huge influence is like claiming every rock band had a major influence.

Now translate that to the rock of the 60s - through the 80s - Based on similar sales hundreds of bands should be included.

Some of the bands that they sailed right past Inducting like Motorhead,and Thin Lizzy blow those numbers away. And we haven't even brought up touring for 40 years and ticket sales attached.

So basically every band has the right to claim HOF status whether they are ever Inducted or not.

Certainly, debate can be had regarding whether rappers belong in a Rock hall. But putting that debate aside for the moment, I could not disagree with you more about Biggie.

For various reasons, that people on this forum probably do not care for me to list, I think Biggie is easily near the top (if not AT THE TOP) of the best rappers ever.

His career was cut short after just two albums, because he was murdered. But, I do not hear people saying Sandy Koufax shouldn't be in the HOF because he played a short career either.

If you're letting rappers in, Biggie absolutely belongs.

Actually found the answer. Inductees will be

2020 Doobies members Tom Johnston, Patrick Simmons, John McFee and Michael McDonald,

plus
Jeff "Skunk" Baxter (1974–79)
John Hartman (1970–79, 1987–92)
Michael Hossack (1971–73, 1987–2012)
Tiran Porter (1971–80, 1987–92)
Keith Knudsen (1973–82, 1993–2005).

POP MUSIC HALL OF FAME! "Rock and Roll'? You mean that musical form that died after (about) 1979?
With the exception of the Doobies, none of these nominees make a sound that remotely resembles Rock and Roll.

That sums up the problem in a way I hadn't heard before. The thing is, since this Hall opened it's been inducting great artists who didn't make rock music but were influences on rock or kind of rock-adjacent in some way. So in that way it would be a little strange if they didn't end up inducting newer artists who also didn't make rock music. It's inevitable whether or not it makes a lot of musical sense. Hip hop has been the most popular form of music in the US for around 20 years - with pretty clear influence on other genres, including rock - so that means more hip hop artists in this Hall. On the other hand if you think about this as a pop music Hall of Fame the lack of female artists and the emphasis on white artists seems even worse than it already is. So yes, they're fitting a few of the biggest hip hop acts in history in there just like they've got some third- or maybe fourth-tier classic rock bands.

(Arms a bit sore from striking deceased equine animal) ... I get the whole, "evolution" thing. I really do. But over time (not instantaneous so you could watch it), the morphing leads to something that no longer resembles the ancestor.

This story is relatable ... if you want it to be. 😉 :

I know a guy who produces soundtracks (cinema/ television mainly). He told me about the time a producer wanted a "Classical" music sound bed for a film. He went to work composing first one and then several more pieces - all in the vein of Beethoven, Bach, Mozart et al. When none of these efforts pleased the producer, my friend (finally) asked the guy to bring in a piece of Classical music that he liked. Maybe he could start a new approach from there.

When I next saw my friend, he was livid! The producer had returned with a Scarlatti selection. "F##kin' Rococo! Screamed the composer.

Now, imagine that a film maker comes to you and says that he wants a Rock and Roll soundtrack. You go to work creating stuff that sounds like Chuck Berry, Fats Domino ... or even Beatles and Rolling Stones. You play it for the producer who tells you, No - not it". Then the guy hands you a copy of "Tainted Love". It's the same, ain't it? 😉

Now, imagine that a film maker comes to you and says that he wants a Rock and Roll soundtrack. You go to work creating stuff that sounds like Chuck Berry, Fats Domino ... or even Beatles and Rolling Stones. You play it for the producer who tells you, No - not it". Then the guy hands you a copy of "Tainted Love". It's the same, ain't it? 😉

Nice.

Big difference between "Rock 'n Roll" & "Rock"....Now, throw in Rap, Hip Hop, Heavy Metal etc. and you have quite a quandary.

Still no Little Feat.

They now have rectified what I have thought for years were two of the biggest omissions from the Hall: Deep Purple a few years back, and now The Doobie Brothers.

The Doobie Brothers had a SLEW of hits, and I mean a LOT. Granted, that was back in the 70's but that should not matter, it only means they should have been in a lot of years ago. They have sold over 40 million records. They have been a solid touring force for 50 YEARS now! And they still bring it big time @ their live shows.

On top of all that, they are home town for me. All the original guys are from San Jose, CA or the surrounding areas. In fact, Tom Johnston and Patrick Simmons first met at a jam at the former Bodega club in Campbell which is a mile or two from my place (Campbell sits right on the west border of San Jose).

Interesting story from the early days: I read an interview with Pat Simmons, must have been 20 years ago, where he spoke of meeting Johnston at the Bodega for the first time. He spoke of the mutual admiration when they heard each other play and the instant chemistry once they decided to get together and jam. Back then in the early 70's the Doobies were basically a local biker band and some of the places they played way out in the Santa Cruz mountains were pretty rough. Simmons talked about playing one of these mountain biker bars one time. He went into his guitar solo, happened to glance down at the dance floor, and there was a couple horizontal on the floor, screwing. "Hard to concentrate on your guitar solo with that going on right in front of you."

The Doobies broke up for maybe five years in the late 80's/early 90's. During that time Pat Simmons had a solo band and I caught him several times at a club in Soquel, a few miles from Santa Cruz. He always packed the place and it was always pretty much straight R&B and he would only do one or two lesser known Doobies tunes, he was not riding that history at all. He had a black dude singing with him. It was always great.

(Arms a bit sore from striking deceased equine animal) ... I get the whole, "evolution" thing. I really do. But over time (not instantaneous so you could watch it), the morphing leads to something that no longer resembles the ancestor.

This story is relatable ... if you want it to be. 😉 :

I know a guy who produces soundtracks (cinema/ television mainly). He told me about the time a producer wanted a "Classical" music sound bed for a film. He went to work composing first one and then several more pieces - all in the vein of Beethoven, Bach, Mozart et al. When none of these efforts pleased the producer, my friend (finally) asked the guy to bring in a piece of Classical music that he liked. Maybe he could start a new approach from there.

When I next saw my friend, he was livid! The producer had returned with a Scarlatti selection. "F##kin' Rococo! Screamed the composer.

Now, imagine that a film maker comes to you and says that he wants a Rock and Roll soundtrack. You go to work creating stuff that sounds like Chuck Berry, Fats Domino ... or even Beatles and Rolling Stones. You play it for the producer who tells you, No - not it". Then the guy hands you a copy of "Tainted Love". It's the same, ain't it? 😉

I guess the further you go from whatever the source of a genre is, the more likely things are going to get lumped into that genre based on surface elements (it must be classical if it has an orchestra, if it has a guitar it must be rock) or kind of obscure elements most listeners aren't going to get, like backbeat or something about the structure or a common ancestor or something.

My favorite thing to read/hear is:

"It's a joke because ______________________(Insert some band you like) is not in!"

I mean, just think for a second about how absurd that sounds! Disappointed? Want them in? Start your own hall!

All tortoises are turtles but not all turtles are tortoises. Rock and Roll is Pop music ... but not all Pop music is Rock and Roll. 😉

He released one album in his lifetime and his second came out right after he died; combined they've sold 17 million copies, which is... more than one or two big singles.

Well you lose 4 million off the top as they are "singles" sales.
There are also 4 albums.

Now if we walk on over to other Top Rappers

MC Hammer - 50 Million
Vanilla Ice - well he says 160 million but he is insane. But sales top BIG - the whole f'n world knows that stupid ice song.
Snoop 37 million and climbing.
Ice Cube 14 million+ other projects
Jay Z 37 million
Ice T 12 million US sales alone

Without Dr. Dre, most couldn't even turn the lights on in a studio. There is a HOFer.

If you let 14 million in sales gain entry then......every rapper in.

Now lets have fun and list all the POP/Rock/R&B/Metal/Punk who have career sales of 15 million plus in sales.

Any idea how long that list is? He had one album while alive so that means every "one hit wonder band" should also gain entry

And we are absolutely throwing out tiny details like touring and career longevity. Why bother with details?

They have let every rap artist nominated in. This guy should have been the wise one to do the right thing with and pass. They didn't. Doom Is Indeed Rising Now. Thanks for playing.

I could keep going. Based on any logical criteria, they all get in.

Soundgarden 25 million - They influenced grunge - an entire genre.
Pat Benatar 30 million - Ask women artists what they think about Pat. She took on the industry at its' most sexist time.

He beats both? C'mon.

[Edited on 1/18/2020 by CanadianMule]

He released one album in his lifetime and his second came out right after he died; combined they've sold 17 million copies, which is... more than one or two big singles.

Well you lose 4 million off the top as they are "singles" sales.
There are also 4 albums.

Now if we walk on over to other Top Rappers

MC Hammer - 50 Million
Vanilla Ice - well he says 160 million but he is insane. But sales top BIG - the whole f'n world knows that stupid ice song.
Snoop 37 million and climbing.
Ice Cube 14 million+ other projects
Jay Z 37 million
Ice T 12 million US sales alone

Without Dr. Dre, most couldn't even turn the lights on in a studio. There is a HOFer.

If you let 14 million in sales gain entry then......every rapper in.

Now lets have fun and list all the POP/Rock/R&B/Metal/Punk who have career sales of 15 million plus in sales.

Any idea how long that list is? He had one album while alive so that means every "one hit wonder band" should also gain entry

And we are absolutely throwing out tiny details like touring and career longevity. Why bother with details?

They have let every rap artist nominated in. This guy should have been the wise one to do the right thing with and pass. They didn't. Doom Is Indeed Rising Now. Thanks for playing.

I could keep going. Based on any logical criteria, they all get in.

Soundgarden 25 million - They influenced grunge - an entire genre.
Pat Benatar 30 million - Ask women artists what they think about Pat. She took on the industry at its' most sexist time.

He beats both? C'mon.

[Edited on 1/18/2020 by CanadianMule]

That jogged my memory of Pet Benatar from the early 80's. If I remember she had this concert on HBO and the video below is from that I believe. Great song and remember watching her husband play that solo on that guitar and I thought that was the coolest thing. I think I was 10 or 11 at the time.;)

He released one album in his lifetime and his second came out right after he died; combined they've sold 17 million copies, which is... more than one or two big singles.

Well you lose 4 million off the top as they are "singles" sales.

13 million from two albums is a lot.

There are also 4 albums.

The bulk of his reputation comes from those two albums and one you start counting compilations things get confusing, but - just going off Wikipedia - if you count all four albums, it's 21 million albums and 7 million more from singles, just in the US. That's a lot for someone whose career lasted about three years. I think the Billboard website gives different numbers, but since I've never argued sales alone make a Hall of Fame career, I don't really care. I did want to point out that your comment about "if you are a rapper and sell a million singles. You are in." was wrong, so I'm going to move on.

Now if we walk on over to other Top Rappers

MC Hammer - 50 Million
Vanilla Ice - well he says 160 million but he is insane. But sales top BIG - the whole f'n world knows that stupid ice song.
Snoop 37 million and climbing.
Ice Cube 14 million+ other projects
Jay Z 37 million
Ice T 12 million US sales alone

Do you think this is almost every rapper there is and you're scraping the bottom of the barrel? This is weird to ask, but you're comparing him to two guys who sold tons of records but are jokes, and to a bunch of legends of the genre. That doesn't diminish his impact or make it seem crazy to induct him. If I were making a sales argument I'd say it's somewhat difficult to compare Biggie to Jay Z or Snoop because that involves comparing album and single sales to sales plus streams, and there are formulas I don't know. But again: I don't care about sales. That's a metric you put a lot of emphasis on and I don't think that makes any sense.

Without Dr. Dre, most couldn't even turn the lights on in a studio. There is a HOFer.

Absolutely true. He's probably the most influential producer in the history of the genre, which makes him maybe the most influential producer of the last 30 years.

Now lets have fun and list all the POP/Rock/R&B/Metal/Punk who have career sales of 15 million plus in sales.

Any idea how long that list is? He had one album while alive so that means every "one hit wonder band" should also gain entry

I don't, because I don't care how many albums anyone sells. That's your thing, remember? You're trying to bring hard numbers and order to a process that is and has always been vague and kind of nuts, and it doesn't make any sense.

And we are absolutely throwing out tiny details like touring and career longevity. Why bother with details?

Hendrix, Morrison, Joplin, Elvis, Nirvana, the Sex Pistols, hell, Robert Johnson, Otis Redding, Sam Cooke... longevity and rock music are not friends. That's never been a problem for the Hall, and for some guys it's arguably been a positive. As far as touring goes: being a great live performer (which some of the above were NOT) is something that should be considered as far as some people's cases. Then again, the Beatles - who were only "The Beatles" that we think of for seven or eight years - quit touring after about four years, and they were very capable players but because of the way touring worked at that time they didn't do a lot of legendary Woodstock or Fillmore East type shows.
Rappers didn't really tour much at that time. They do it more often now because hardly anyone makes money from album sales, but we all know this.

They have let every rap artist nominated in.

That's because they've nominated so few! They're up to six artists from a genre that went mainstream around 30 years ago. The few people who've been up for consideration were either huge stars or pioneers in hip hop.

I could keep going. Based on any logical criteria, they all get in.

We know you could keep going. There are no logical criteria. Baseball has done a pretty good job of making its Hall of Fame process more rational than it used to be, but in music, or at least in this institution, it's probably impossible.

Soundgarden 25 million - They influenced grunge - an entire genre.

And I'm a huge fan! I'm not shocked that the arc of their career probably worked against them, - they started to get big in '91, were huge from around '94 until they broke up in '97, and then didn't reunite until 2010, when they put out only one more album before Chris Cornell died - but eventually I assume they'll get in. I won't get bent out of shape about it either way because everything about this is too random to get outraged about.

By the way, Gov't Mule will be eligible for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame next year, and Derek Trucks will be eligible two years later. That's going to be fun! (runs away)

"By the way, Gov't Mule will be eligible for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame next year, and Derek Trucks will be eligible two years later. That's going to be fun! (runs away)"

Run away!!

I don't expect either to get in. Neither has made a big enough mark on the public consciousness or the hipster music critics' radar. Derek has a better chance than Warren, I guess, for being so unique.

In the next years, it may be that, like this year, I have no real attachment to any of the nominees. However, I think that two of my faves, The Replacements and Wilco, have a shot.

I don't expect either to get in. Neither has made a big enough mark on the public consciousness or the hipster music critics' radar. Derek has a better chance than Warren, I guess, for being so unique.

Hipster music critics aren't RnR HoF voters or associated with it at all. It's more like a mix of industry insiders (including some of Jann Wenner's buds, I'm sure), some rock stars, and dad rock music critics. I won't be surprised if Derek gets in one day precisely for that reason - to name one, David Fricke is one the nominating committee and has always written about the Allmans, Warren and Derek as much as possible - but since he's not a huge rock star I wouldn't think he'll get in there in the first year.

This is the current committee: https://www.futurerocklegends.com/Nominating_Committee.php

In the next years, it may be that, like this year, I have no real attachment to any of the nominees. However, I think that two of my faves, The Replacements and Wilco, have a shot.

Speaking of dad rock I'd be pretty stunned if Wilco didn't make it soon.

Maybe not the ubermost hipster, Marley, or perhaps we are using the word differently, but Depeche Mode and NIN certainly have that cachet (as does T Rex) while Grand Funk and Styx never will.

Maybe not the ubermost hipster, Marley, or perhaps we are using the word differently, but Depeche Mode and NIN certainly have that cachet (as does T Rex) while Grand Funk and Styx never will.

I thought you meant older-millennial-ish music snobs. You're right: artists who don't get respect from critics have a hard time getting in. (Which doesn't bother me at all, but that's me.) I think the critics have always liked Derek, though.

That's because they've nominated so few! They're up to six artists from a genre that went mainstream around 30 years ago. The few people who've been up for consideration were either huge stars or pioneers in hip hop.

So that it doesn't seem like I am trying to insult you, Marley. Do the math. Years they were eligible, six in comes to 31 years. And they will put one in every year.

That was funny.

but you're comparing him to two guys who sold tons of records but are jokes, and to a bunch of legends of the genre.

Solely your opinion. I am pretty sure they believe in their careers. I also used them as part of an example of how many and how varied the rappers are that get in. HOF will absolutely not pass on any of them. And maybe they should all get in but then that opens up the debate for the vast majority of bands on major labels from the 60s on.

If it was not for being shot and attached to Tupac. He would have been some guy who made an album once. So does M&M/50 Cent get in? where would you stop? Or do you actually believe they all deserve it. Both have careers that destroy BIG. Along with so many others - not every artist should gain entry regardless of genre. It is a joke anyway but that doesn't condone making it worse. He was their safest out for many years to come.

And I'm a huge fan! I'm not shocked that the arc of their career probably worked against them, - they started to get big in '91, were huge from around '94 until they broke up in '97, and then didn't reunite until 2010, when they put out only one more album before Chris Cornell died

Longevity means nothing nor touring and actually playing the music to people.

If Chris had been shot instead of suffering from depression, Soundgarden would have been in.

People wonder why some bands are not in or took forever to get in - they didn't like the Rolling Stone guys around backstage and at parties. So no coke and no women. Rolling Stone guys tended to lean on the "nerdy" side for lots of the classic rocker party animals.

The weird nerdy bands shared their coke. There were less women but - hey there was coke.

They have been bitter since. Most of the bands not in - don't care. They had more coke and more women.

That's because they've nominated so few! They're up to six artists from a genre that went mainstream around 30 years ago. The few people who've been up for consideration were either huge stars or pioneers in hip hop.

So that it doesn't seem like I am trying to insult you, Marley. Do the math. Years they were eligible, six in comes to 31 years. And they will put one in every year.

I think you're trying to do some kind of 'gotcha' by saying if hip hop went mainstream around 30 years ago, no hip hop artists would've been eligible until about six years ago. Thing is, they've been inducting hip hop acts since 2007. The genre started in the mid 70's and there were some big acts by the mid 80's. I would say it went mainstream a bit later than that, but there was a big audience for it earlier.

but you're comparing him to two guys who sold tons of records but are jokes, and to a bunch of legends of the genre.

Solely your opinion. I am pretty sure they believe in their careers. I also used them as part of an example of how many and how varied the rappers are that get in. HOF will absolutely not pass on any of them. And maybe they should all get in but then that opens up the debate for the vast majority of bands on major labels from the 60s on.

Snoop and Jay will probably get in; they've been major stars for 20-25 years each. Ice Cube is already in as part of NWA (so is Dre). Eventually they might end up with a really varied group, and they have artists from different styles already - but a six-year streak doesn't prove what you think it does. If they have to reconsider every band that sold a lot of records in the 60's, it sounds like record sales are a dumb metric to use in considering Hall membership. But I'm not the one arguing that lots of record sales prove anything.

If it was not for being shot and attached to Tupac. He would have been some guy who made an album once.

You seriously have no idea what you're talking about. But then again this is the internet, where not knowing what you're talking about helps you have a stronger opinion and be louder about it. The guy was very popular in a short career and is still generally considered one of the best to do what he did. Other people in this thread who don't even consider themselves hip hop fans have acknowledged this.

So does M&M/50 Cent get in? where would you stop? Or do you actually believe they all deserve it.

I would guess Eminem will get in. I don't think anybody deserves it because the entirely thing is unfixably arbitrary. When they honor someone I like, I think it's great, and once in a while the induction ceremony jams are cool. And I think that trying to measure art by counting sales is kind of dumb and contrary to the idea of art. That's pretty much the extent of my opinions. The rest of this is about you saying things that are factually incorrect in some cases, or weird and nonsensical in others.

And I'm a huge fan! I'm not shocked that the arc of their career probably worked against them, - they started to get big in '91, were huge from around '94 until they broke up in '97, and then didn't reunite until 2010, when they put out only one more album before Chris Cornell died

Longevity means nothing nor touring and actually playing the music to people.

If Chris had been shot instead of suffering from depression, Soundgarden would have been in.

That's sad, and probably true even if it's only because of the way public sympathy works.

Couldn't you just say you don't like hip hop and don't want any rappers in the Hall? It's not a very interesting opinion because that side has already lost the argument, but much more sensible than starting with your opinion, trying to find metrics to prove it, and getting most of them and lots of other basic facts wrong.

So to sum it up. If it is a rapper that Marley says should be in then it is OK and if Marley doesn't like them then no.

Just write that, Marley.

We won't use sales at all. How were BIG's tour sales?

if we don't use sales for many of the rappers then they would not exist. they don't tour.

WTF do you want to use? No sales debate, no tour debate - what are you judging by?

Oh I forgot - The Marley Meter. LOL

Still too easy Marley . Thanks for stopping by.

50 Cent got shot and lived to spend his money. That has to be worth some consideration by the HOF. Survival.

So to sum it up. If it is a rapper that Marley says should be in then it is OK and if Marley doesn't like them then no.

Just write that, Marley.

We won't use sales at all. How were BIG's tour sales?

if we don't use sales for many of the rappers then they would not exist. they don't tour.

WTF do you want to use? No sales debate, no tour debate - what are you judging by?

Oh I forgot - The Marley Meter. LOL

Still too easy Marley . Thanks for stopping by.

50 Cent got shot and lived to spend his money. That has to be worth some consideration by the HOF. Survival.

This is just ridiculous. I’m not sure your actually listen to or like rap. Can we start with that? Do you? Because the answer to that question would help frame this discussion.

Your paradigm seems out of whack. I’m not sure of any other human being who would put Big and 50 in the same sentence (to just touch on the oddities of your “argument”).