I believe had Duane not died the Allmans would have been and stayed more popular than the grateful dead.

Of course there is no way to throw a crystal ball into reverse gear, but i disagree with you for a few reasons.

1. The Allman Brothers were far and away more popular than the Dead in the early 70s. No comparison. I was there. The ABB had a strong mainstream appeal and pretty much built FM rock radio. The Dead were a cult tripper group until Watkins Glen era, and especially 1974, when they took off.

2. Duane's death kicked the ABB into other gears, caused Betts to step up to the plate, busted out Ramblin Man, and that is the song that made their fortune. Without that number they wouldn't have broken thru to anyone but the stoner chevy van crowd.

Guessing of course, but your statement seems to reflect a late arrival to both groups, am thinking late 80's, when the Dead were HUGE and the ABB were smokin along at the Beacon.

Had he lived I think Duane would have gone off in different directions but always come back to the ABB.

I also think he would have eventually gotten cleaned up. He was a very mentally tough guy that loved music too much to toss it away on drugs. Would have done a lot of musical things for his own self interest that weren't commercially popular.

I think he would have eventually had a real issue with both his brother & Dickey. I don't think he or anyone else would have prevented their personal issues from becoming a problem within the band. Instead of putting up with it, he would have done a lot of things outside the band and would not have suffered from a lack of opportunities.

What do I know! Just my opinion but its fun to speculate.

[Edited on 6/22/2017 by DeadMallard]

2. Duane's death kicked the ABB into other gears, caused Betts to step up to the plate, busted out Ramblin Man, and that is the song that made their fortune. Without that number they wouldn't have broken thru to anyone but the stoner chevy van crowd.

Have to disagree here. I don't know what makes you think Dickey could not have written Ramblin' Man if Duane never died. Dickey was already hitting his songwriting stride BEFORE Duane died, and neither Duane nor Gregg were getting in his way. I mean, Blue Sky may be my favorite Dickey song ever. It was done before Duane died and for proof, there is a live version with Duane on it, SUNY @ Stonybrook. Let's not forget In Memory of Elizabeth Reed and Revival, two all-time ABB classics, which appeared on Idlewild South.

Have to disagree here. I don't know what makes you think Dickey could not have written Ramblin' Man if Duane never died. Dickey was already hitting his songwriting stride BEFORE Duane died, and neither Duane nor Gregg were getting in his way. I mean, Blue Sky may be my favorite Dickey song ever. It was done before Duane died and for proof, there is a live version with Duane on it, SUNY @ Stonybrook. Let's not forget In Memory of Elizabeth Reed and Revival, two all-time ABB classics, which appeared on Idlewild South.

Nice throwdown, but you totally missed my point. I didn't say or think anything of the sort! And of course wasn't comparing the two guitarists. Nobody was in "anyone's way." I don't even think that way, haha.

During those few years after Duane passed, Dickey Betts was the hardest working guitar player in rock and roll, other than Garcia. Had you seen one of his six, seven hour marathons you would agree. That dedication and sacrifice bore fruit in their Top 40 hit. Sure, it could just as easily not happened and the ABB would have been thrown in the trash along with denim workshirts and roachclips, as 99.9% of the plastic hippies at Watkins Glen moved on to cocaine, disco, and stock portfolios.

The "classic" songs you mention were indeed wonderful pieces, to the lucky few who were aware of them, diehard Allman fans, but my point was addressing the OP issue of "popularity". The ABB was only a pop trend for a couple of years, 72-74. And during that time they were way more poular than the Dead, who were pretty much an underground acidhead cult.

Have to disagree here. I don't know what makes you think Dickey could not have written Ramblin' Man if Duane never died. Dickey was already hitting his songwriting stride BEFORE Duane died, and neither Duane nor Gregg were getting in his way. I mean, Blue Sky may be my favorite Dickey song ever. It was done before Duane died and for proof, there is a live version with Duane on it, SUNY @ Stonybrook. Let's not forget In Memory of Elizabeth Reed and Revival, two all-time ABB classics, which appeared on Idlewild South.

Nice throwdown, but you totally missed my point. I didn't say or think anything of the sort! And of course wasn't comparing the two guitarists. Nobody was in "anyone's way." I don't even think that way, haha.

During those few years after Duane passed, Dickey Betts was the hardest working guitar player in rock and roll, other than Garcia. Had you seen one of his six, seven hour marathons you would agree. That dedication and sacrifice bore fruit in their Top 40 hit. Sure, it could just as easily not happened and the ABB would have been thrown in the trash along with denim workshirts and roachclips, as 99.9% of the plastic hippies at Watkins Glen moved on to cocaine, disco, and stock portfolios.

The "classic" songs you mention were indeed wonderful pieces, to the lucky few who were aware of them, diehard Allman fans, but my point was addressing the OP issue of "popularity". The ABB was only a pop trend for a couple of years, 72-74. And during that time they were way more poular than the Dead, who were pretty much an underground acidhead cult.

6 or 7 hour Dickey marathons? What kind of revisionist bs is this?

Revisionist bullshit is putting it pretty harsh, kinda Whipping Postish. Exaggeration based on some serious ABB - Dead all day and nighters. Sorry got my 73-74 Dead and Allman Bros mixed up, it was the Dead that played forever, and if it was an ABB - Dead thing it was endless.

Point still good though, Betts cranked that guitar for hours, killin it . Had you been there you would understand the cognitive dissonace and been a bit more forgiving.

Nuf said. Glad I got to experience it.

Revisionist bullshit is putting it pretty harsh, kinda Whipping Postish. Exaggeration based on some serious ABB - Dead all day and nighters. Sorry got my 73-74 Dead and Allman Bros mixed up, it was the Dead that played forever, and if it was an ABB - Dead thing it was endless.

Point still good though, Betts cranked that guitar for hours, killin it . Had you been there you would understand the cognitive dissonace and been a bit more forgiving.

Nuf said. Glad I got to experience it.

Ah I was seeing the Dead and the Allmans in those years. And you are most certainly speaking exaggerated bs.

Lighten up

whaa,I thought Greg was the 'Ramblin Man'....

per that article title

(thats a joke btw,to try to lighten things up)

[Edited on 6/24/2017 by bettyhynes]

I mean, Blue Sky may be my favorite Dickey song ever. It was done before Duane died and for proof, there is a live version with Duane on it, SUNY @ Stonybrook.

I think there's 4(5?) live versions with Duane on them..Here's one,

Dickey wrote "Ramblin Man" while Duane was still alive, but it was called "Ramblin Country man"

[Edited on 6/22/2017 by chasenbluesman]

I believe had Duane not died the Allmans would have been and stayed more popular than the grateful dead.

Of course there is no way to throw a crystal ball into reverse gear, but i disagree with you for a few reasons.

1. The Allman Brothers were far and away more popular than the Dead in the early 70s. No comparison. I was there. The ABB had a strong mainstream appeal and pretty much built FM rock radio. The Dead were a cult tripper group until Watkins Glen era, and especially 1974, when they took off.

2. Duane's death kicked the ABB into other gears, caused Betts to step up to the plate, busted out Ramblin Man, and that is the song that made their fortune. Without that number they wouldn't have broken thru to anyone but the stoner chevy van crowd.

Guessing of course, but your statement seems to reflect a late arrival to both groups, am thinking late 80's, when the Dead were HUGE and the ABB were smokin along at the Beacon.

Yes I did get into the Allmans and Dead in the late 1980s probably 1987, and for sure in 1988 and 1989 but I was 4-6 and I would hear my mom playing the music of both the Allmans and the dead as she had the records, and I would hear the music on local radio stations here like 93.3 WMMR.

Haha well at least I got something right, as you can see I got called on the carpet for a few points here!

Motive for my response was to let you know that your favorite group was the numero uno band for a few years early on, not just music but as style and trendsetters too. I coud see how if you came along in the 80s you could get the impression that the Dead were as big as the ABB back in the beginnings. They weren't at all. I think the Dead hitch-hiking along with the ABB in the Watkins Glen era was their gravity assist toward their supernova.

Haha well at least I got something right, as you can see I got called on the carpet for a few points here!

Motive for my response was to let you know that your favorite group was the numero uno band for a few years early on, not just music but as style and trendsetters too. I coud see how if you came along in the 80s you could get the impression that the Dead were as big as the ABB back in the beginnings. They weren't at all. I think the Dead hitch-hiking along with the ABB in the Watkins Glen era was their gravity assist toward their supernova.

Well you should get called on the carpet for trying to teach a younger fan stuff that is plainly not true and easily provably false. The Allmans who I love far more than I do the Dead certainly did not pretty much build fm radio and The Dead would outdraw the Allmans in all eraas except that relatively brief post Brothers and Sisters era. And it is easily provable.

http://gratefulseconds.blogspot.com/2016/01/grateful-dead-touring-revenues-1965-1995.html

Interesting article, good info, thx. Doesn't prove anything I said false though. It actually matches pretty well what I was saying.

Ok, and that Brothers and Sisters era was what I was referring to. Prior to that time the ABB was still climbing, and the Dead were selling out shows to their cult, which did not represent the mainstream at all. So saying the Dead had better sales than the ABB before the Brothers and Sisters era is meaningless.

Other than American Beauty, the Dead didn't appeal to the mainstream. In the late 60s and early 70s the Dead appealed to a small margin of the rock crowd, the San Francisco acid rock fans, and were overshadowed even in that genre by the Airplane and even Quicksilver in the Fillmore era.

Here is the difference: The ABB appealed to everyone, jocks and freaks alike, and freak-jocks (there weren't really any jock-freaks), whereas the Dead were, early on, a freak band, kind of our secret deep stoner cult.

The Allman Brothers were the "it" group from 72-74. Friend of mine had "Jessica" playing at his Bar Mitzah, for christsake. Well, not for christsake (har har), but you wouldn't have heard "Truckin" at a Bar Mitzvah.

Am curious to know which ABB - Dead double header shows you were at. When were your first Dead and ABB shows?

Haha well at least I got something right, as you can see I got called on the carpet for a few points here!

Motive for my response was to let you know that your favorite group was the numero uno band for a few years early on, not just music but as style and trendsetters too. I coud see how if you came along in the 80s you could get the impression that the Dead were as big as the ABB back in the beginnings. They weren't at all. I think the Dead hitch-hiking along with the ABB in the Watkins Glen era was their gravity assist toward their supernova.

Well you should get called on the carpet for trying to teach a younger fan stuff that is plainly not true and easily provably false. The Allmans who I love far more than I do the Dead certainly did not pretty much build fm radio and The Dead would outdraw the Allmans in all eraas except that relatively brief post Brothers and Sisters era. And it is easily provable.

http://gratefulseconds.blogspot.com/2016/01/grateful-dead-touring-revenues-1965-1995.html/blockquote >

I agree with you 100% that the Allmans did not build FM radio... unless you only started listening to FM in 1972. Their mainstream popularity was as much the gift of AM radio, more than FM, which was still not a big force in "popular" music. I doubt many AM stations played the full version of Whipping Post. even most of the FM stations played a limited variety of Allman's tunes.

You could also make lots of arguments for greater popularity of the Dead over the ABB, unless you are talking AM radio and the like. Once you get out of the purely mainstream arena, I don't think the Allmans had nearly the same range of appeal as the Dead.

 

This is good, haven't seen a healthy lively argument over this pivotal ABB era in a long time.

yeah for sure tbo nailed the fm gaff. Easy to bust generalizations like that, apologize for my broad brush - the fm thing just meant that in early fm it was good rock, Who, Yes, Tull and the like were huge. ABB, Dead, you heard ABB all the time.s

The Dead didn't get a big record out after American Beauty until Europe 72. In those first years of the 70s, with so much new music flooding the shelves, American Beauty was already gathering dust in bargain bins by 73. Their debut record was forgotten, Anthem of the Sun was a cult unknown, and Workingman's Dead was a companion to American Beauty, also gone by the wayside.
The only people listening to Live Dead, and Skull and Roses, and such were juvenile delinquents like me. Even folks who liked American Beauty barfed on most Dead jams. You had to be hard core to develop a taste for Saint Stephen and Dark Star. Normal people were like how can you listen to that crap?

Most common comment at Watkins Glen, RFK, during the Dead's sets, other than don't bogart that joint or where's the sh!tter, was "When is this song gonna end?"

The Dead were on their way out, except for repeat attendance by their cult following, until the big 73-74 blowout, then Mars Hotel, then the new and shiny mass appeal of the later 70s records.

Go ahead and shoot down the turkeys, but my original point still stands untouched: The Allman Brothers in those few years, that 70s heyday, were way more popular than the Grateful Dead ever were, until the Dead hit big in the late 80s.

Where's Al Paul when you need him?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grateful_Dead_discography#Studio_and_contemporary_live_albums

While this thread may be circular, I will chime in anyway 😉

The ABB, at the height of their fame were the biggest band in the country. they blew away the GD (who was top bill at Watkins Glen). The GD were always very popular but didn't hit it in a big way till Touch of Grey --1987. Oddly they had recorded it years before but they had a video etc.

The ABB were a comet in their fame peak but obviously always remained popular. They did not attain the steady height of fame the GD maintained but that was primarily due to the different audience and the mere fact that the GD stayed together

Salient points. The Dead also toured their frekin butts off thru thick and thin, and pulled thru the great Disco Drought and made it into the 1980's. Their musical adaptability, incorporating new pop sounds, reggae, disco, elcctronica and their own weird inventions, had everything to do with their survival and eventual emergence to the top in the late 80s.

I think we all are in agreement that for a brief time the Allmans were the biggest band in the world. They were always in my mind the best band in the world. Well I should say for many of their years they were.

My main disagreement with the original thing was the Dickey 6 and 7 hour show thing and the fm comments. I do think up until Eat A Peach and more obviously Brothers and Sisters the Dead were the bigger and more well known band up to that point.

All is good.

Yeah the Dickey comment was just plain dumb. Chalk it up to the fog of war. I just remember being blown away by how long guys like Betts and Garcia would hammer away at us.

So I hope I am cleared of the charge of corrupting innocent ABB fans. Or at least just get community service.

I didn't get to hear the ABB at the Fillmore (number one on my time machine list), but listening to that particular recording what leaps out at me is how the ABB literally attacked the whole rock-jam form and in one fell swoop raised the bar of musicianship to a level that has since never been matched in rock or pop, at a time when rock bands were really getting away with murder. Unreal.

It wasn't only that they were just super tight, or incredible musicians, the key to the magic was how they laid back and didn't shovel overdriven music into your face. That confident joyful look on Butch's face as he played, half of what he was playing was what he wasn't playing. Dreams was a completely revolutionary new sound. It was a whole different thing - the sound let you dream, fill in the blanks, join in, gave you space to approach the music. I think the ABB had a strong influence on the Dead in this way.

Brer,

I'm not sure what you need me for here. This is a perfectly fun and reasonable hypothetical. There's no way to know. This bigger question is why and how did the ABB never have the big re-breakthrough in the early 90s.... luck was always a little off... just missed the Unplugged craze, because they played it too early and only did a half hour set, partly because of paranoia that if they played longer new songs would just be cut... and other stuff... There's no doubt that in 73-75, the Allman Brothers were far more mainstream and popular. I think with a little bit different luck and approach, they could have had a major resurgence and hit some peaks...

Dickey would not vary the setlists, which drove Warren and Woody nuts and was a major source of tension... and definitely discouraged any but the hardest core from going to multiple shows... just one example.. I'm riffing.. could discuss this endlessly.

Yeah the Dickey comment was just plain dumb. Chalk it up to the fog of war. I just remember being blown away by how long guys like Betts and Garcia would hammer away at us.

So I hope I am cleared of the charge of corrupting innocent ABB fans. Or at least just get community service.

I didn't get to hear the ABB at the Fillmore (number one on my time machine list), but listening to that particular recording what leaps out at me is how the ABB literally attacked the whole rock-jam form and in one fell swoop raised the bar of musicianship to a level that has since never been matched in rock or pop, at a time when rock bands were really getting away with murder. Unreal.

It wasn't only that they were just super tight, or incredible musicians, the key to the magic was how they laid back and didn't shovel overdriven music into your face. That confident joyful look on Butch's face as he played, half of what he was playing was what he wasn't playing. Dreams was a completely revolutionary new sound. It was a whole different thing - the sound let you dream, fill in the blanks, join in, gave you space to approach the music. I think the ABB had a strong influence on the Dead in this way.

lol

Of course it is all in fun. You telling me to lighten up was appropriate.

Dickey would not vary the set-lists, which drove Warren and Woody nuts and was a major source of tension... and definitely discouraged any but the hardest core from going to multiple shows.

A hold over idea from the start of the band or from disinterest/laziness?

(I'm assuming that Duane chose-called out the tunes in the beginning.)

A hold over idea from the start of the band or from disinterest/laziness?

Both?

He never wanted to discuss this with me TBH. But I believe he thought if it was good enough for the greatest band ever in 1970 it was good enough then... and having to remember lyrics and parts is a lot of work. To be fair, it is how most acts operate, but doesn't work in terms of picking up Deadhead like followers.

I think mixing up setlists can go too far. The Dead didn't want to repeat anything at Fare Thee Well. So we didn't get to hear some great stuff in Chicago because they had played it in Cali. I thought that was dumb.

Hahaha no doubt, with a rotation of hundreds of tunes it took a lifetime to hear most of the catalogue. Unless you were a roadie or wandered vacantly from show to show for years with a miracle ticket finger up and a glazed expression on your face. Not possible at a short-run review. Not really possible ever.

The ABB did have that ability to make you not really care what song it was, when the whole band was rolling it just sounded so awesome. That said, when they started doing that long High Falls jam it was just like a waterfall, flowing and refreshng, and it promised a whole new frontier of sounds.

The Dead also toured their frekin butts off thru thick and thin, and pulled thru the great Disco Drought

Let's leave poor Donna Jean out of this.

LOL you just brought her in.

A hold over idea from the start of the band or from disinterest/laziness?

Both?

He never wanted to discuss this with me TBH. But I believe he thought if it was good enough for the greatest band ever in 1970 it was good enough then... and having to remember lyrics and parts is a lot of work. To be fair, it is how most acts operate, but doesn't work in terms of picking up Deadhead like followers.

I think mixing up setlists can go too far. The Dead didn't want to repeat anything at Fare Thee Well. So we didn't get to hear some great stuff in Chicago because they had played it in Cali. I thought that was dumb.

The Grateful Dead was Jerry's Band.
Jerry was his own thing, and so I don't consider anything done post Jerry as "The Grateful Dead".
I recall the early 70's as lean as far as the actual number of Allman Brothers shows I attended versus Grateful Dead shows. The Grateful Dead toured every season. Spring, summer and fall.
Yes I remember "Ramblin Man" as a huge commercial hit. Then Jimmy Carter and 76. But it seemed to fall apart after that. I recall seeing Dickey and Great Southern in 1978 at The Calderone in Hempstead, N.Y.
I also recall hearing the tapes of the Grateful Dead teasing "Mountain Jam" on the "Alligator's" from 1968.
So it's debatable as to who was influencing who back then.