Good post. I certainly do not think either Butch or Jaimoe get the credit they deserve for being part of the ABB sound.

I think Frankie was a good drummer but just didn't fit in the ABB.

Also its been 2 years today we lost Butch. Sad and greatly missed.

eap,
Steve

[Edited on 1/24/2019 by steved]

I concur with Rob. I've watched the show before.

My snarky reply for the day: the worst years for live ABB were 77-78, 83-89, and 2015 onward because there wasn't any! 😮

I've watched pieces of that show a few times and completely agree about the Frankie effect. While Dan being on-point yet barely distinguishable from Dickey was annoyingly noticeable and Lawler being Lawler was peculiar at best, the change in drummers was the biggest departure from the that full, colorful ABB sound.

I believe this is the show:

It was released on VHS with the Gainseville show that is unfortunately often used as archival footage when ever there is a story on the Allman Brothers. I believe they played SNL and then split a month later.

79-81 shows were fine for me since I missed all of 69-76. A few stick out as memorable in a good way :
-79 run at The Palladium -They were my first Brother shows.
-New Years Eve 79 or 80 at The Nassau Coliseum. Molly Hatchet opened and The Brother's busted out 'You Don't Love Me
-Listening to the WNEW broadcasts from the Capitol Theater in Passaic .
-My first road trip to see The Brothers at The New Haven Coliseum
-The Roundup at JFK Stadium in Philly 1981 with The Brother's headlining along with Marshall Tucker , The Outlaws and Molly Hatchett, 38 Special and The Charlie Daniels Band . Gregg and Dickey walked on stage in Eagle jerseys.
-A summer on a Saturday night in South Fallsburg , NY at a venue called Magic Mountain which was down the road from a hotel I was working at as a waiter that summer. I remember this particular show as being an exceptional night for the band. Sound was phenomenal !

-

I saw them 05/30/81 at the Nashville Fairgrounds Raceway. Memorable day, 20 yrs. old... I don't recall any specifics of the show, however.

I also saw them 11/21/80 at Municipal Auditorium in Nashville. That date is listed incorrectly on this site as Glen Falls, NY. Atlanta Rhythm Section opened.

[Edited on 1/24/2019 by alanwoods]

-Listening to the WNEW broadcasts from the Capitol Theater in Passaic .

As referenced by Porkchopbob's YouTube link, this is the exact show that robslob is referring to. Interestingly the YouTube info indicates it is an "official" video from the musicvault which is the followup organization that was Wolfgang's vault. So this is as high quality video that you will get for that era and yes, part of it was used (with the Gainesville show of the same era) for a VHS release at the time.

Personally I think it is an excellent show. The band knew that the the show was going out live in the New York City area on WNEW FM and that it was also being filmed. Just watch the energy that Dickey has during the entire show and then the handshake with Gregg at the end. Gregg is in great voice, Butch is his usual freight train, and I was impressed with how well bassist, David Goldflies, sounds. Dan Toler's performance is more than adequate. Even the two female backup singers blend in well and are not overused. The show certainly deserves a listen. The Statesboro, Whipping Post, Ramblin' Man conclusion is awesome. There is a nice two song acoustic set featuring Dan and Gregg. However, be forewarned of keytar appearances in One Way Out and Southbound.

What I think is very cool about the show is that it features a combined 9 songs from Enlightened Rogues and Brothers of the Road, While the Brothers of the Road ones have been particularly ignored, it is interesting how much better they sound as live versions. This is the Allman Brothers Band after all, still playing as if it mattered.

Butch posted here years ago the 1978-1982 lineups just didn't have the right chemistry among other problems. Butch said the only reason Enlighten Rogues was decent but still no Eat A Peach or Idlewild South is because Tom Dowd was producing.

That lineup actually started playing shows in 1978 and when they decided to work with Gregg again after shunning him over the Scooter drug situation, all they did after they discovered Chuck and Lamar would not return ( the Brothers and Sisters lineup did play at the Capricorn picnic in 1978 but Chuck and Lamar said by 1976 the energy was gone and this didn't feel any different so no we will stay with Sea Level) all they did was merge the ABB and Great Southern at this point. The two Great Southern drummers and keyboard player were out because Gregg, Butch and Jaimoe had those chairs.

In 1980 they voted Jaimoe out of the band. The press was told it was because Jaimoe was missing too many shows, playing just part of a show and only being available for three songs on Reach For The Sky which I thought was odd because Jaimoe usually doesnt play on every song on their albums such as Whipping Post on the first album or Pony Boy on Brothers and Sisters and the problem with Jaimoe was back problems. But in the 80s it came out that the big reason was Jaimoe's then wife, Berry Oakley's sister, was pressing Jaimoe to demand a financial audit which angered Gergg, Butch and especially Dickey. So with Jaimoe out, they selected another Great Southern player. Since Frankie Toler was Danny's brother, I assume that is why he of the two drummers got the gig.

In the 90s Butch wrote at the very first show after Jaimoe was voted out Butch regretted voting for that which would have kept Jaimoe in the band for the vote would then have been two for two against. Butch said Toler made the chemistry problem worse and every time Butch was about to play something Frankie Toler was already playing it, that Toler was in Butch's way all night and every show, something that NEVER happened with Jaimoe. By 1982 they were disgusted with Clive Davis and didn't want to do the 3rd album they owed him, declining crowds at shows and the band feeling out of gas and Gregg having writers block they decided to put the band on the shelf. Gregg took Danny and Frankie and Dickey, Butch and Chuck hooked up with Jimmy Hall.

In 1986 the ABB did two shows and Jaimoe was back so the riff didn't last long. And supposedly Jainoe had been living near poverty during that time.

Butch said they didn't have good chemistry again until the 1989 line up with Warren and Allen. And it got even closer to the original lineup when they agreed to let Johhny Neal go at the end of the 1990 tour. Johnny was close to Warren and was in the Dickey Betts Band but all seem to agree Johnny didn't lock in to the ABB sound and seemed to be out of sync with the other ABB players rather often in the 89 and 90 shows. Johnny seems okay on Seven Turns but I too noticed Johnny's piano sounding wrong and out of sync in the 89 and 1990 shows I saw.

The insight some of Ya'll provides here at HTW is priceless and appreciated......Thanks........joe

To me 1979 and 1981 are much different, as Jaimoe is gone by late '80 and Lawler is in. And Enlightened Rogues is an enjoyable album but I can't do more than a couple songs on Madness and BotR.

I'd love to see an official archive release from 1979.

I enjoy BHLT and Gregg & Friends in late 1982 more than the Brothers of late 1980-early 1982.

Saw about 3-4 shows in 1980, which were "Lackluster" to say the least (One in L.A. featured John Belushi who came out on stage via cartwheels while wearing a Dodger jacket). and one show in 1981 (San Diego) to push "Brothers of the Road". The album was so bad I had to be literally dragged off to that show and left about halfway through. The songs were there, but man the fire had gone out for both myself and the band.

Saw em early 1981 Hanover NH -- what I recall most specifically was Butch's solo on the kettle drums -- RIP Butch, you are missed bro

Dan Toler, though not as good as Warren, Derek, or Jack, was an excellent guitar player hand picked by both Dickey and Gregg on different occasions. David Toler just did not fit with Butch because they were both rock drummers. Gregg called David one of the best drummers in rock in his autobiography. Both Toler brothers shined in Gregg's 1980s solo band.
Part of the problem with that 1980/1981 ABB was the music scene was not keen on blues and the band was on a bad record label, for their bluesy music.
However, I do agree with Butch that the chemistry in the band with the Chuck/Lamar lineup and the Warren/Allen/Marc line up was much better than the Toler/Goldflies lineup.
Still like the Enlightened Rogues album, and I too would like to see a '79 show released.

I remember my excitement when I found found 'Hell or High Water" at a used cd store in the early 90s, A few minutes after popping it in the cd player I immediately had buyers remorse. Even by the relatively terrible standards of the early 80s, those two albums remain largely unlistenable, not one redeeming moment. Had they not risen from those depths in 1989, that era would have really tarnished their legacy. Almost unimaginable that could be the same band that recorded Fillmore East or Eat a Peach.

I remember my excitement when I found found 'Hell or High Water" at a used cd store in the early 90s, A few minutes after popping it in the cd player I immediately had buyers remorse. Even by the relatively terrible standards of the early 80s, those two albums remain largely unlistenable, not one redeeming moment. Had they not risen from those depths in 1989, that era would have really tarnished their legacy. Almost unimaginable that could be the same band that recorded Fillmore East or Eat a Peach.

Great on point post

When the band decided they miss judged Gregg on the Scooter Herring drug deal and Dickey and Gregg began talking and decided they wanted to put the band back together, Jaimoe said he was in but Butch was reluctant. Dickey went to visit Butch, convinced Butch Gregg was in good shape and no longer unwilling to tour and show up at recording sessions. ( much of that was Gregg wanting to be in LA with Cher). Dickey played Crazy Love on acoustic guitar and sang to Butch. All that convinced Butch it was okay to get the band back on the road. Chuck and Lamar were on tour so Butch, Gregg and Jaimoe did an Allman Brothers set with Dickey, Dan Toler and David Goldflies in Central Park. They all liked it. Next they played the Capricorn picnic with Chuck and Lamar but they turned it down to keep Sea Level going.

After Enlighten Rogues which went gold (over 500,000 copies), Dickey sued Phil Walden and Capricorn and received well over a million dollars in back royalties. When others began to hire lawyers, Capricorn went out of business so the band signed with Aristar Rscords. The boss there was Clive Davis who immediately put pressure on the band to repeat the success of Brothers and Sisters and write some hit singles and get another Platinum album. They did Reach For the Sky with Mike Lawler and Johnny Cobb instead of Tom Down and Angeline like Crazy Love was almost a hit single but Reach For The Sky didn't even go Gold. Clive Davis then assigned John Ryan to the band and pressed the band hard to give me some hits. Straight From The Heart almost became a hit single but the Allman Brothers then was like New Coke trying to be Pepsi. They were trying to be the Doobie Brothers with Michael McDonald. Gregg, Dickey and Butch became a angry with Davis and felt he and his label didn't appreciate the Band and its legacy and was ruining what legacy they had left. So they refused to do the 3rd album the contract called for and took the band off the road in 1982 after appearing on Saturday Night Live. Yes they were indeed ruining their legacy. No they were no longer the band that did Fillmore East and Eat A Peach. They sounded like a hybrid Gregg Allman Band/Dickey Betts Band trying to sound like the Doobie Brothers and Charlie Daniels.

Danny Toler was a very good guitar player but he was too influenced by Dickey's style and didn't play slide and Dickey has never liked playing electric slide. I do really enjoy Dickey's slide on Ain't Waisting Time No More on Eat A Peach.

The best slide I've heard is Duane Allman on Fillmore's Statesboro Blues. It is just letter perfect from start to finished. And some of the notes are so good and it's so smooth and so much energy. I've never heard anything from Derek or Warren that grabs me like that. And oddly Gregg said Jack Jack Pearson was the one who could channel Duane's slide style the best. To me its Derek...I think?

Dickey Betts overall to me is guitar player that I enjoyed the most in the band. His tone and style is all his own and like B. B. King or Eric Clapton or Santana, you know its Dickey after just a few notes. Some of the most exciting and melodic guitar solos I've heard have been Dickey's. In his latter years Dickey, too me, was not the same player. But in the early 90's and several shows I saw, Dickey kinda smoked Warren Haynes which is saying a lot. But Dickey and Warren both told me when I was lucky enough to speak to them they didn't believe in dueling gutairs and neither did Duane. They never try to out do they other guy and it hurts bands when that goes in. Every good player finds his voice and style and they dont like somebody is better than this guy. They want to say the players are different.

That is a fine way to look at it and I try to be that way. But I have to admit after seeing him once in the late 70's and lots of videos on YouTube, there isn't anyone who can play a drum solo as good as Buddy Rich could. And he usually only used 4 drums, 3 cymbals and a high hat. In the original band Butch and Jaimoe used an economy set too. Maybe two mounted Tom toms after Duane passed on but never much more than that.

Now for what really stands out about this show: Frankie Toler's drumming. I always thought his brother Dan Toler was a very accomplished musician, and he does nothing here to tarnish my opinion. However, if you ever want to revisit how intimately important Jaimoe was to the band, give a show from this era a listen. Butch is his usual FREIGHT TRAIN. I hate to be cold, but Frankie Toler sounds like a 7th grader banging on pots and pans. It really makes you appreciate what Jaimoe added to the band and how unique and magnificent a percussion section he and Butch were, and that never changed when Marc Quinones joined, in fact it just got better. Frankie is so bad that I had to turn this show off, and he's way up in the mix right there with Butch, if anything louder than Butch.

Honestly, it makes me wonder how Frankie ever got in the band. Did Dan Toler give an ultimatum, like, yeah, I'll join if it includes my brother?

Dan was well established in the band before Frankie's hiring -- Frank was asked to join to help the ABB out during a bad time for the band after it & Jaimoe parted ways -- in the same fashion that Jimmy Herring helped them out on the 2000 tour, also when he sat in at Stowe in 1996

I like the 1/23/1982 SNL vid -- Butch & Frank have the same kind of thing going that Don Murray and Fred Edwards did on those early CDB albums -- just 1 set of ears

Would like to pull this thread back to the original question posed by robslob. Is this the worst year of live performances by the band? As far as I can see there is only one remaining document (other than people's memories) and that is this Pro Shot show from the Capitol Theatre in Passaic, New Jersey from 1981. I watched again last night and I do not see any major issues (ok- keyytar 😮 ). Yeah, the producers did screw up the keyboard mix at times, particularly on Blue Sky. But the band is tight while somewhat differently nuanced than previous configurations. And Frankie Toler is certainly no amateur hack. I can't find a single example where he pulls down the band's performance. And when he has to work particularly close with Butch on the fills in One Way Out and Liz Reed and the drum solos in Judgement Day he is SPOT ON !!! BTW, Rook Goldflies and his solo really shines on this. The man can bring THE THUNDER!

So forget the Jaimoe backstory and his own unique stylings and the studio failures of Brothers of the Road. Come with a fresh pair of eyes and ears and actually listen again to what this band was capable of during that time. Think you will be pleasantly surprised.

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^^^^ So if you are defending 1981, then what would be the worst year?

I personally have no idea as I was born in 1980 and saw my first show in 99. I do know that I got the arista years CD and think it totally sucks. The worst year is probably somewhere in that 75-82 range though, for me.

The 1981 shows are competent, if a little coked out. The "Southbound" from SNL is at light speed.

Anyone who has heard some of the 1976 shows knows they can be pretty sloppy, especially Gregg's singing. That they played "Statesboro Blues" without any slide just shows they weren't super interested anymore.

I really have some difficulty determining what might be the worst performance year. Did not go to or hear about enough shows during any particular year.

My hope is that more people take a look at this 1981 show before judging the band too harshly from that time. Not necessarily for the right or wrong of the question posed but that I think they are missing out on a fine performance that is well recorded.

If there were issues from shows/eras it has to be times when band members just overindulged. Prime times for this are the years following the success of Brothers and Sisters. Also when Dickey's behavior got out of control at the end of his time with the band.

Ive been reading alot about this era on music in general. It seems with few exeptions like ac/dc, alot of bands suffered. Blues and South Rock took a huge hit. I guess it was the times as they say.

I do know that I got the arista years CD and think it totally sucks.

A cool tune with a familiar slide part that was left off that comp - "The Heat Is On":

Personally I never really got into the new material on Reach For The Sky and especially on Brothers of the Road. The band was going in the wrong direction trying to get a hit single.

As to this 1981 show at the Capitol Theater, the band seems to be on Coke. Most of the songs seem to be so fast. The bass is solid. Jaimoe is missed a lot but Butch Trucks is rolling hard and Frankie Toler seems down in the mix but he is a solid rock drummer similar in style to Butch and I saw the Gregg Allman Band several times in the 1980s and the Toler brothers always made Gregg sound good. Clean and solid lead guitar and solid rock drumming.

Gregg is real fine in this 1981 show. The girl singers are okay but different for this band. Danny Toler is solid through out and he was always quick and fluid on the fret board.

Dickey Betts is as good as he was in the original band. Red hot solo on Blue Sky and many others and of course great tone and that Dickey unique style that from the very beginning was a big part of what was the Allman Brothers Sound.

When Dickey is playing like this he can edge out Warren Haynes a little. Especially on the Duane era and Brothers and Sisters era songs. Warren just cant top Dickey with this kind of music when Dickey was really on his game. And Dickey is ever bit as good as Jack Pearson and Derek Trucks on this 1981 show. Jack and Warren can play different types of music better than Dickey. I cant imagine Dickey could do Pink Floyd music as well as Warren but Dickey in the original band, on this 1981 show and in 1989 through about 1994 to me was better than Warren most nights. Just listen to Dickey's tone for one thing. Then Dickey began to get a little sloppy and hit and miss. Dickey rebounded when Jack Pearson joined slipped again then bounced back really strong when Derek Trucks joined. Butch said in 1999 that Derek set Dickey on fire. That Dickey was playing the best now in years. But just months later Dickey was more hit and miss and more sloppy nights than ever and apparently drinking a lot and not being nice to Butch and Gregg. But the big reason Butch turned against Dickey was Dickey refused to let the band do anything with Butch's personal business adventures. Gregg and Dickey were making millions on song writing off the old songs and especially on that 1991 Decade of Hits release that sold over 2 million copies and Butch said he got nothing. So when Butch came up with ideas for him to make money off the band beside just playing in it Dickey blocked him on the Flying Frog label, the festivals etc . The band didn't want to record anymore for Epic unless they got a better deal and it did sound like a good thing for the band to move to Butch's label when I read. Butch's posts about his ideas for the band.

Not sure if it's mentioned already but the band changed managers twice during that time. Music was changing plus so were the members of the band. Life happens.

Jessica from the University of Florida in 1982. It's pretty good!

Jessica from the University of Florida in 1982. It's pretty good!

Sure is, & Lawler sounds impressive on them keys.

The thing about 79-81 to me is that they played brilliantly as far as technique, but it just seemed lifeless. Dare I say it was almost as if the Sex Pistols critique was accurate/

When you look at the Arista records, there were good songs on them, but the compilations always picked the wrong ones. Admittedly it wouldn't be a good Allman Brothers record, but you can scratch a pretty decent record out of the two. Remember in the final era you only had to come up with 36-38 minutes to have a presentable record

From Reach For the Sky
Mystery Woman
From the Madness of the West
Angeline
So Long

From Brothers of the Road
Never Knew How Much I Needed You
Maybe We Can Go Back to Yesterday
and yes god help us, Straight From the Heart

That's close to a decent record. The problem for me is that It sounds too much like solo work stuck together

[Edited on 1/27/2019 by linus]

one of the better threads in a while thx everyone

worts and all, playing wise, the bros are were the best out there