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Author: Subject: Global warming comes to Jupiter

Ultimate Peach





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  posted on 3/10/2009 at 09:45 AM
quote:
Global warming on Jupiter?

Allen Hoover

Global warming activists need to explain a news story last night. It appears that the Great Red Spot on the planet Jupiter is shrinking. Scientists theorize that this is a result of... planetary climate change.

Based on meteorological observations of the planet's surface, it is believed that the poles are getting cooler, while the equator is getting warmer. As a result of this (or perhaps vice-versa; these planetary phenomena are not well understood), certain persistent storms are growing stronger while others (including said Red Spot) are weakening.

Of course, Jupiter's climate change is due to natural phenomena, while we are reminded daily Earth's climate change is our fault. If the Great Red Spot, which is twice the diameter of the earth can shrink via natural causes, what's a temperature fluctuation of 1 degree in 20 years for us here on Earth? Is it time for a cap-and-trade system on Jupiter?
Source: http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/03/global_warming_on_jupiter.html

Both from May 22, 2008:
quote:
The Hubble and Keck images may support the idea that Jupiter is in the midst of global climate change, as first proposed in 2004 by Phil Marcus, a professor of mechanical engineering at the University of California, Berkeley. The planet's temperatures may be changing by 15 to 20 degrees Fahrenheit. The giant planet is getting warmer near the equator and cooler near the South Pole. He predicted that large changes would start in the southern hemisphere around 2006, causing the jet streams to become unstable and spawn new vortices.
source: http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/archive/releases/2008/23/image/a/
quote:
Explanation: For about 300 years Jupiter's banded atmosphere has shown a remarkable feature to telescopic viewers, a large swirling storm system known as The Great Red Spot. In 2006, another red storm system appeared, actually seen to form as smaller whitish oval-shaped storms merged and then developed the curious reddish hue. Now, Jupiter has a third red spot, again produced from a smaller whitish storm. All three are seen in this image made from data recorded on May 9 and 10 with the Hubble Space Telescope's Wide Field and Planetary Camera 2. The spots extend above the surrounding clouds and their red color may be due to deeper material dredged up by the storms and exposed to ultraviolet light, but the exact chemical process is still unknown. For scale, the Great Red Spot has almost twice the diameter of planet Earth, making both new spots less than one Earth-diameter across. The newest red spot is on the far left (west), along the same band of clouds as the Great Red Spot and is drifting toward it. If the motion continues, the new spot will encounter the much larger storm system in August. Jupiter's recent outbreak of red spots is likely related to large scale climate change as the gas giant planet is getting warmer near the equator.
Source: http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap080523.html

I know the more adamant believers that humans are responsible for much of global warming will dispute or denigrate this one way or another. However, facts are facts:
quote:
Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
-- President John Adams

Billastro

 

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Peach Bud



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  posted on 3/10/2009 at 04:19 PM
WOW! Great stuff! I had heard similar reports about Mars in the last few years as well. Darn SUV - Drivin' Martians anyhow.
I have just seen this doc film from England. You may already be familiar with it. I liked it because it, as Forrest Gump used to say about his momma....." has a way of explaining it so I can understand it."
Many grade-schoolers could benefit from this. It is about 73 minutes long, so make some popcorn first !
[http://www.garagetv.be/video-galerij/blancostemrecht/The_Great_Global_Warm ing_Swindle_Documentary_Film.aspxb]

 

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  posted on 3/10/2009 at 04:27 PM
http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/08/the-other-planets-are-warming-myth/

http://www.skepticalscience.com/global-warming-other-planets-solar-system.h tm

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/10/2009 at 04:35 PM
Facts

97% of Climatologist agree on man made global warming.

Based on solar and volcanic activity we should be in a cooling trend, yet the planet is warming.

What is happening on jupiter is totally irrelevant to the earth's global climate. in fact what this
author describes is pretty much how the climate on jupiter always works.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/10/2009 at 04:46 PM
quote:
Facts

97% of Climatologist agree on man made global warming.

Based on solar and volcanic activity we should be in a cooling trend, yet the planet is warming.

What is happening on jupiter is totally irrelevant to the earth's global climate. in fact what this
author describes is pretty much how the climate on jupiter always works.


Exactly.

 

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  posted on 3/10/2009 at 05:24 PM
If i remember right both Jupiter and the Earth share the same sun so if one is getting warmer then the other should show signs of something happening even with different atmoshperes..

 

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Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 3/10/2009 at 05:27 PM
quote:
http://climateprogress.org/2007/08/08/the-other-planets-are-warming-m yth/
I poked around this website; it looked like a blog, with no info about who runs it, etc.
quote:
http://www.skepticalscience.com/global-warming-other-planets-sola r-system.htm
This one seems more reputable, especially when I check the "About Us" link. I'll see what else is there.

My contention is that there's enough conflicting evidence that I'm skeptical myself about global warming. Numbers of scientists agreeing with each other means little, since truth doesn't depend on votes.

Remember the alarms about global cooling and approaching ice ages some time in the '70s, I think? The Earth's climate has fluctuated greatly over millions of years for causes we don't understand much, if at all. I think it's far too early to make sweeping predictions given the Earth's climate history.

So I remain skeptical, at least for the time being.

Billastro

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/10/2009 at 06:14 PM
quote:
If i remember right both Jupiter and the Earth share the same sun so if one is getting warmer then the other should show signs of something happening even with different atmoshperes..


because of the greater distance, the sun only effects jupiter about 4% of the effect on Earth.



 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/10/2009 at 06:14 PM
quote:

So I remain skeptical, at least for the time being.

Billastro


Head in Sand

 

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Sublime Peach



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  posted on 3/11/2009 at 07:21 AM
Here is a case of taking the findings of science, accepting the findings as true, and then saying scientists do not know what they are doing. Cognitive dissonance much?

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/11/2009 at 08:25 AM
I would love to see where this whole argument would be if Al Gore was never involved.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/11/2009 at 08:39 AM
quote:
I would love to see where this whole argument would be if Al Gore was never involved.


Exactly. I would too.

 

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World Class Peach



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  posted on 3/11/2009 at 09:08 AM
quote:
quote:
If i remember right both Jupiter and the Earth share the same sun so if one is getting warmer then the other should show signs of something happening even with different atmoshperes..


The sun is just one factor. Are Mercury, Venus, Mars, Saturn and Neptune getting warmer?


Good question Mars would be a great place to look i do not know if Neptune ever warms up it is so far out but Mars would be a good indicator..

 

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Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 3/11/2009 at 10:20 AM
quote:
quote:
If i remember right both Jupiter and the Earth share the same sun so if one is getting warmer then the other should show signs of something happening even with different atmoshperes..
because of the greater distance, the sun only effects jupiter about 4% of the effect on Earth.
Good point. There's another I neglected to include. Jupiter is detectably warmer than it would be if the Sun were the only factor. Turns out it's essentially a failed brown dwarf, generating heat (not from fusion; I forget exactly what's the source) from its core. If it were 10 times more massive, it might have become a star of some kind.

Billastro

 

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Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 3/11/2009 at 10:33 AM
quote:
quote:
So I remain skeptical, at least for the time being.

Billastro
Head in Sand
Not really. I'd rather be prudent than to go into panic mode over changes that have been happening over a relatively short time.

Has anyone come up with good explanations of other warming trends in the Earth's history? Why was there an agricultural community in Greenland roughly 1,000 years ago, for example?

I still maintain we don't know enough to make the kinds of predictions we hear so often. Computer simulations don't have anywhere near enough data; the Internet isn't that hot as a reference source. A quick Google search on global warming hoax gave 2,240,000 hits; global warming myth, 2,120,000 hits; global warming debunk(ed), nearly 800,000. There are similar numbers, I bet, taking the opposite stand.

I try to avoid a lot of the near-panicky responses I see from politicians, and so on. If I'm wrong, I'll admit it, but I'm not ready to do it yet.

(Please excuse any disjointedness. I'm sneaking this out at work.)

Billastro

 

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Sublime Peach



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  posted on 3/11/2009 at 10:45 AM
quote:
Has anyone come up with good explanations of other warming trends in the Earth's history?


Yes. Climatologists have. You know, the same scientists who overwhelmingly say that man is to a large extent to blame for this warming trend. So you believe them when they say there were other climate change events, the reasons for those events, but you don't believe them when they say what they are saying about the current trend. Personal incredulity is not a very good reason to dismiss the life work of many scientists, nor is it a very nice thing to accuse these scientists of either being dishonest, or incompetent. Keep slandering them though, by all means. May as well start doubting other established fields of science too or indeed all science and scientists, because it doesn't make sense to laymen. Good call.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/11/2009 at 12:09 PM
quote:
quote:
Has anyone come up with good explanations of other warming trends in the Earth's history?


Yes. Climatologists have. You know, the same scientists who overwhelmingly say that man is to a large extent to blame for this warming trend. So you believe them when they say there were other climate change events, the reasons for those events, but you don't believe them when they say what they are saying about the current trend. Personal incredulity is not a very good reason to dismiss the life work of many scientists, nor is it a very nice thing to accuse these scientists of either being dishonest, or incompetent. Keep slandering them though, by all means. May as well start doubting other established fields of science too or indeed all science and scientists, because it doesn't make sense to laymen. Good call.


it is akin to folks saying they don't believe in quantum mechanics as they sit and type on their computers.

 

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Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 3/11/2009 at 12:10 PM
quote:
quote:
Has anyone come up with good explanations of other warming trends in the Earth's history?
Yes. Climatologists have. You know, the same scientists who overwhelmingly say that man is to a large extent to blame for this warming trend.
There are plenty of climatologists on both sides of the issue; it's nowhere close to being resolved.
quote:
So you believe them when they say there were other climate change events, the reasons for those events, but you don't believe them when they say what they are saying about the current trend.
It doesn't take climatologists to report that events happen, but to explain why they did
quote:
Personal incredulity is not a very good reason to dismiss the life work of many scientists,
The fact that it's a person's life work doesn't make it right, and doesn't oblige me to believe it. There's a lot at stake here, and it's not just my personal incredulity, but also that of many other climatologists who take all this seriously.
quote:
nor is it a very nice thing to accuse these scientists of either being dishonest, or incompetent.
You might want to practice your reading skills. Nowhere did I accuse them of being dishonest or incompetent. I won't accuse you of lying about me, but I will question your reading comprehension.
quote:
Keep slandering them though, by all means.
Disagreeing isn't slander, it's disagreeing. Look it up
quote:
May as well start doubting other established fields of science too or indeed all science and scientists, because it doesn't make sense to laymen. Good call.
All science depends on doubt, and that's a fact. It's part of what keeps all sciences advancing.

I've had a good working knowledge of many sciences, and the scientific process, for decades. I understand, and have seen first hand (through various media) that scientific conclusions are subject to review and attack. Not the scientists themselves (although the "cold fusion" debacle of some 20 years did involve dishonest scientists, IIRC). There have been other dishonest scientists exposed, but very few. But scientific findings, theories, etc. are always under scrutiny.

BTW, since you complain that it's not very nice to accuse these scientists of dishonesty or incompetence, you might want to check your own lack of niceness in your response. You could start by not accusing me of something I didn't do, except in your own misinterpretation

Billastro

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/11/2009 at 12:14 PM
quote:
here are plenty of climatologists on both sides of the issue; it's nowhere close to being resolved.



Horse Hockey A lie and you know it. this has been discussed before

97% of Climatologists agree on man made warming. 3% work for polluters. That is about as unanimous as you'll get.

[Edited on 3/11/2009 by spacemonkey]

 

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  posted on 3/11/2009 at 12:47 PM
quote:
quote:
here are plenty of climatologists on both sides of the issue; it's nowhere close to being resolved.
Horse Hockey A lie and you know it. this has been discussed before
Prove it.
quote:
97% of Climatologists agree on man man warming. 3% work for polluters. That is about as unanimous as you'll get.
Prove it.

Your animosity toward disagreement makes me think of a cranky child on the playground.

I've issued you two challenges. Can you back up what you say, or are you just blowing hot air?

Billastro

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/11/2009 at 12:51 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
here are plenty of climatologists on both sides of the issue; it's nowhere close to being resolved.
Horse Hockey A lie and you know it. this has been discussed before
Prove it.
quote:
97% of Climatologists agree on man man warming. 3% work for polluters. That is about as unanimous as you'll get.
Prove it.

Your animosity toward disagreement makes me think of a cranky child on the playground.

I've issued you two challenges. Can you back up what you say, or are you just blowing hot air?

Billastro


The article was posted here long ago A major university did the survey.

I have brought this survey time and time again. RBK challanged me on it dispite he
posted three trolling posts in that very thread. I have already reponded to
this challenge. Try the search function.

So you don't believe in the science you disagree with only the ones you agree with.

It is dishonest and you know it.




 

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  posted on 3/11/2009 at 01:11 PM
quote:
BTW, since you complain that it's not very nice to accuse these scientists of dishonesty or incompetence, you might want to check your own lack of niceness in your response. You could start by not accusing me of something I didn't do, except in your own misinterpretation


Bill, when you state that the majority of climatologists do not know what they are talking about (when it comes to the current trend....you have no problem believing they know what they are talking about when discussing past climate change, which is, to say the least, very inconsistent) then you are accusing them of either lying or incompetence, or both. What you are actually doing is going against the consensus view of climatologists concerning climate change and deciding that corporations or journalists shilling for said corporations are telling the truth.

Yes, skepticism is built into the scientific method, and for that reason the conclusions of these scientists using the scientific method should give you confidence that all these studies, by all these climatologists, indicating man is a big reason for this climate change, should be taken very seriously. Your skepticism is not based on the scientific method, it is based on articles written by corporate shills.

If there was not a consensus, you could easily find all kinds of climatology studies (studies made by climatologists using the scientific method) refuting the theory man is responsible. There are a few, sure, but the overwhelming majority supports the theory, hence the consensus.

quote:
It doesn't take climatologists to report that events happen, but to explain why they did


Which is why I included the phrase "the reasons for those events,". I know, you are at work and didn't read that part, although you quoted it, so I will give you a pass on that bit of incomprehension.

quote:
but also that of many other climatologists who take all this seriously.


All you have to do is support your assertion. You should be able to find hundreds of studies by climatologists that support this claim.

Don't for a second think that by being a denier that you are not attacking the competence and honor of scientists. I think this is a very important point and when pointing out hard truths it is hard not to appear un-nice. Your ideas on this are wrong headed, stubborn, based on politics and not science. Man up and admit it.

 

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  posted on 3/11/2009 at 04:50 PM
quote:
quote:
here are plenty of climatologists on both sides of the issue; it's nowhere close to being resolved.



Horse Hockey A lie and you know it. this has been discussed before

97% of Climatologists agree on man man warming. 3% work for polluters. That is about as unanimous as you'll get.


You are the only one spouting mis truths your 97% BS has been debunked already one sourse story.... fact of the matter is you are like a bull with a ring in his nose just being led around the pasture not going anywhere at least there are a few of us who still think for ourselves and at least question things instead of blindly following...

Goliath: Just what do these quote climatologists base all this info on ,on events that happened millions of years ago? yeah i thought so.. so convince us non believers by giving us a explanation for the last bih warm up 12,000 years ago yep the one that melted the mile thick glaciers and killed off the mega fauna, and in general formed the land we see today in north america i would love to hear how you think this happened.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/11/2009 at 04:53 PM
quote:
ou are the only one spouting mis truths your 97% BS has been debunked already one sourse story...



It is truth, You have your head in the sand.

I'll ignore the trollish personal attack.

[Edited on 3/11/2009 by spacemonkey]

 

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  posted on 3/11/2009 at 04:58 PM
for the umpteenth million time

From the corporate owned news station CNN

This is the thread you 'head in sand folks" love to ignore:

quoting the original thread

quote:
Got this from CNN. Nothing new really just more food for thought.


Surveyed scientists agree global warming is real

Most earth scientists believe humans cause of global warming, according to survey

97 percent of climatologists canvassed believe humans play a role

Petroleum geologists and meteorologists were among the biggest doubters


(CNN) -- Human-induced global warming is real, according to a recent U.S. survey based on the opinions of 3,146 scientists. However there remains divisions between climatologists and scientists from other areas of earth sciences as to the extent of human responsibility.

A survey of more than 3,000 scientists found that the vast majority believe humans cause global warming.

Against a backdrop of harsh winter weather across much of North America and Europe, the concept of rising global temperatures might seem incongruous.

However the results of the investigation conducted at the end of 2008 reveal that vast majority of the Earth scientists surveyed agree that in the past 200-plus years, mean global temperatures have been rising and that human activity is a significant contributing factor in changing mean global temperatures.

The study released today was conducted by academics from the University of Illinois, who used an online questionnaire of nine questions. The scientists approached were listed in the 2007 edition of the American Geological Institute's Directory of Geoscience Departments.

Two questions were key: Have mean global temperatures risen compared to pre-1800s levels, and has human activity been a significant factor in changing mean global temperatures?

About 90 percent of the scientists agreed with the first question and 82 percent the second.

The strongest consensus on the causes of global warming came from climatologists who are active in climate research, with 97 percent agreeing humans play a role.


Petroleum geologists and meteorologists were among the biggest doubters, with only 47 percent and 64 percent, respectively, believing in human involvement.

"The petroleum geologist response is not too surprising, but the meteorologists' is very interesting," said Peter Doran associate professor of earth and environmental sciences at the University of Illinois at Chicago, and one of the survey's authors.

"Most members of the public think meteorologists know climate, but most of them actually study very short-term phenomenon."

However, Doran was not surprised by the near-unanimous agreement by climatologists.

"They're the ones who study and publish on climate science. So I guess the take-home message is, the more you know about the field of climate science, the more you're likely to believe in global warming and humankind's contribution to it.

"The debate on the authenticity of global warming and the role played by human activity is largely nonexistent among those who understand the nuances and scientific basis of long-term climate processes," said Doran.




IT IS FACT.

[Edited on 3/11/2009 by spacemonkey]

 

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