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Author: Subject: Any rules on ABB playing certain songs?

Peach Master





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  posted on 6/30/2008 at 05:10 PM
With instant lives to the ABB pay royalties when they perform covers in concert? Last few years have seen some new covers in the mix, just curious. Also, are they any rules with what Dickey Betts written songs they play? I notice they will often play Jessica, Liz Reed, Southbound, Revival and occassionally Les Brers but NEVER Blue Sky, Ramblin Man (that makes some sense), Back Where it All Begins, Seven Turns etc. since Dickey left. Do they try to avoid songs Dickey sang on? Or just certains stuff for some reason or another? Or was there a ruling, like stuff from the 70's is ok but not from the 90's? I have a Gov Mule disc with Kind of Bird on it, but I bet it has been a long time since the Brothers played too (and Warren co-wrote it). Setlists with the 21st century ABB seem to have few, if any rules, other than the annoying (IMO) drum break, bands back to finish the song, & then shows over. Drums is at ABB show is like the 2 min warning at a football game now.
 
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Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/30/2008 at 08:12 PM
quote:
With instant lives to the ABB pay royalties when they perform covers in concert? Last few years have seen some new covers in the mix, just curious. Also, are they any rules with what Dickey Betts written songs they play? I notice they will often play Jessica, Liz Reed, Southbound, Revival and occassionally Les Brers but NEVER Blue Sky, Ramblin Man (that makes some sense), Back Where it All Begins, Seven Turns etc. since Dickey left. Do they try to avoid songs Dickey sang on? Or just certains stuff for some reason or another? Or was there a ruling, like stuff from the 70's is ok but not from the 90's? I have a Gov Mule disc with Kind of Bird on it, but I bet it has been a long time since the Brothers played too (and Warren co-wrote it). Setlists with the 21st century ABB seem to have few, if any rules, other than the annoying (IMO) drum break, bands back to finish the song, & then shows over. Drums is at ABB show is like the 2 min warning at a football game now.


They do not play anything Dickey sang. Anything else they can play. The biggest DIckey number they should bring back is Nobody Knows.

Doug

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/30/2008 at 08:12 PM
quote:
With instant lives to the ABB pay royalties when they perform covers in concert? Last few years have seen some new covers in the mix, just curious. Also, are they any rules with what Dickey Betts written songs they play? I notice they will often play Jessica, Liz Reed, Southbound, Revival and occassionally Les Brers but NEVER Blue Sky, Ramblin Man (that makes some sense), Back Where it All Begins, Seven Turns etc. since Dickey left. Do they try to avoid songs Dickey sang on? Or just certains stuff for some reason or another? Or was there a ruling, like stuff from the 70's is ok but not from the 90's? I have a Gov Mule disc with Kind of Bird on it, but I bet it has been a long time since the Brothers played too (and Warren co-wrote it). Setlists with the 21st century ABB seem to have few, if any rules, other than the annoying (IMO) drum break, bands back to finish the song, & then shows over. Drums is at ABB show is like the 2 min warning at a football game now.


They do not play anything Dickey sang. Anything else they can play. The biggest DIckey number they should bring back is Nobody Knows.

Doug

 

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Peach Master



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  posted on 6/30/2008 at 08:16 PM
And gregg sang that one originally. Blue Sky with gregg singing sounded awesome. I'll bet warren would sound good singing any of the songs dickey originally sang

 

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  posted on 6/30/2008 at 08:16 PM
I miss Back Where it all Begins.
 

Peach Master



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  posted on 6/30/2008 at 08:22 PM
quote:
I miss Back Where it all Begins.


amazing song. Warren harmonies on it were so incredible.

 

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  posted on 6/30/2008 at 08:56 PM
That was a good question. I had wondered the same thing.
 

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  posted on 7/1/2008 at 12:04 PM
quote:
And gregg sang that one originally. Blue Sky with gregg singing sounded awesome. I'll bet warren would sound good singing any of the songs dickey originally sang


I heard Warren singing Blue Sky with Phil Lesh and Friends.

Doug

 

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  posted on 7/1/2008 at 12:06 PM
quote:
I miss Back Where it all Begins.


Go see Dickey Betts and Great Southern play it.

It still kicks a$$!

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/1/2008 at 12:08 PM
quote:
quote:
I miss Back Where it all Begins.


Go see Dickey Betts and Great Southern play it.

It still kicks a$$!


yup

 

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  posted on 7/1/2008 at 12:35 PM
quote:
quote:
I miss Back Where it all Begins.


Go see Dickey Betts and Great Southern play it.

It still kicks a$$!


Ditto! They are getting better each year! Go see DB&GS to hear all of these lost gems.

 

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  posted on 7/1/2008 at 12:44 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
I miss Back Where it all Begins.


Go see Dickey Betts and Great Southern play it.

It still kicks a$$!


Ditto! They are getting better each year! Go see DB&GS to hear all of these lost gems.


That's the truth, man. If you haven't seen DB&GS, go check them out. I guarantee you'll leave satisfied, smiling, thinking to yourself, "yes, that's what's been missing . . ."

This assumes of course, that you're a fan of Blue Sky, High Falls, Back Where it all Begins, Ramblin' Man, etc.

 

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  posted on 7/1/2008 at 12:49 PM
I actually prefer the current incarnation of DB & GS version
of IMOER to the current lineup of the ABB.

But that's me.

 

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  posted on 7/1/2008 at 01:31 PM
Good Question. Curious though, do bands have to pay royalties to the writers when they play the cover live? Also how much would they have to pay? Does it depend on the writer or is it a industry amount/standard? How much do they pay the writers if the cover are on a live album like mentioned above.

I wonder how much per CD or download Govt Mule paid Led Zep for the Holy Haunted House set last Halloween? Must you have permission from the band or writer when you release a live CD like that?

 

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  posted on 7/1/2008 at 01:33 PM
quote:
Good Question. Curious though, do bands have to pay royalties to the writers when they play the cover live? Also how much would they have to pay? Does it depend on the writer or is it a industry amount/standard? How much do they pay the writers if the cover are on a live album like mentioned above.

I wonder how much per CD or download Govt Mule paid Led Zep for the Holy Haunted House set last Halloween? Must you have permission from the band or writer when you release a live CD like that?


The album thing I am not sure. They probably have to pay some royalties. I know that a band is allowed to play covers live by subscribing to and paying a fee to ASCAP which pays a regular royalty to all composers to allow their songs to be performed live. Someone please correct me if I have it slightly wrong.

Doug

 

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  posted on 7/1/2008 at 01:39 PM
quote:
quote:
Good Question. Curious though, do bands have to pay royalties to the writers when they play the cover live? Also how much would they have to pay? Does it depend on the writer or is it a industry amount/standard? How much do they pay the writers if the cover are on a live album like mentioned above.

I wonder how much per CD or download Govt Mule paid Led Zep for the Holy Haunted House set last Halloween? Must you have permission from the band or writer when you release a live CD like that?


The album thing I am not sure. They probably have to pay some royalties. I know that a band is allowed to play covers live by subscribing to and paying a fee to ASCAP which pays a regular royalty to all composers to allow their songs to be performed live. Someone please correct me if I have it slightly wrong.

Doug


Found this................may be close to what I am asking... thanks Dougrhon
forgot about ASCAP,


From" ASCAP" Site see below

CD, TAPES AND RECORD SALES


A major source of income for many songwriters and music publishers are the mechanical royalties due from the sale of CDs, tapes, records, and downloads containing musical compositions.

Under the U.S. mechanical rate (known as the statutory rate) in effect in 2002-03 (8 per song, but see the next page for further explanation) a million-selling single would be worth a total of $80,000 in combined royalties to the publisher and writer.

For an album, the above royalties would be multiplied by the number of songs on the album. For example, if 10 songs were included on an album and each received an 8 royalty, a total of 80 in mechanical royalties would be generated from the sale of each album. Thus, if the album sells between 1,000,000 and 10,000,000 copies, the combined writer and publisher royalties for the album would range from $800,000 to $8,000,000. Mechanical royalties are paid by the record company to the music publisher or its representative (frequently The Harry Fox Agency), who then shares them with the writer. Simple, right? Wrong... (better read on!)

[Edited on 7/1/2008 by rottinpeach]

 

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  posted on 7/1/2008 at 01:43 PM
More from ASCAP............taken from site see below



CONTROLLED COMPOSITION CLAUSES


The 8-per-song statutory mechanical royalty can be reduced under certain circumstances (for example, if the writer is the recording artist, or if the record is sold for a lower price, like as a midline, record-club, TV-only, special-products compilation, or budget album), in which case the royalty figures may be less than those mentioned above. However, such reduced rates are voluntary and occur only if the publisher agrees, or if the songwriter is a recording artist and has accepted such lower royalties in the negotiation of the record contract.

Here's where things get complicated, so bear with us, and read carefully. Many agreements -- the majority, in fact -- contain language which provides that if the recording artist or producer has written or co-written a song, has ownership or control of a song, or has any interest in any composition on the album or single, the mechanical royalty rate payable by the record company for that composition is reduced. (They offer no reason for this, except that it saves them money!) Such compositions are referred to as controlled compositions.

Most contracts attempt to establish a 75% rate (specifically, 6, which is three-quarters of the 8 full statutory rate) for all controlled compositions. The figures are computed at the mechanical rate in effect at either (a) the time the recording is produced, (b) the date of the recording contract with the artist, (c) the date that a particular album commenced recording (or should have commenced recording per the contract), or (d) the date the recording is originally released (regardless of whether the same recording is released again at a later date on another album). Got that?

In other cases, the record company will establish a maximum aggregate mechanical penny royalty limit for an album (for example, 10 songs x 6 = 60 per album). Under these clauses, the artist or producer guarantees that he/she will secure reduced mechanical rates on all songs on the album so that the maximum penny rate (in this case, 60) payable by the record company to music publishers and songwriters for all songs is not exceeded. If this maximum aggregate album-royalty rate is surpassed -- for example, if the writer/artist wants to put 12 songs rather than 10 on the album -- the difference is normally deducted from the artist's or producer's record, songwriter, and publishing royalties, or, as in the case above, the per-song royalty rates for the writer/artist or writer/producer will be reduced proportionately. Yes, this stuff is complicated!

Now, let's take a look at how this arithmetic affects a specific situation: Let's say that the writer/performer has a 10-song x 6 maximum royalty rate on his/her album (in other words, 60 total) and, instead of writing all 10 songs, writes only eight and records two songs from outside writers -- or includes songs with samples by outside writers -- who demand the 8 statutory 2002-03 rate per song. In this case, the mechanical royalties would look like this:

60


album-royalty maximum payable by record company

- 16


two outside songs at 8 each

44


/ 8


the number of artist-written songs

5.5


per-song royalty to artist/writer and publisher


As you can see, the writer/artist's mechanical royalty has been reduced to 5.5 per song from 6 per song due to the inclusion of two outside-written songs on the album. By the same token, as the writer/artist records more outside-written songs, the artist's per-song royalties for his/her own works will be reduced further. Sometimes, in fact, when a writer/artist has recorded a substantial number of songs by other writers, he/she has been put in a position of receiving NO royalties for his/her own songs, since the aggregate album-royalty maximum has been paid out to outside songwriters and publishers. OUCH! But it can get even worse: There have actually been instances in which the writer/artist's mechanical royalties have been in the minus column for every album sold because of the operation of these controlled-composition clauses. Additionally, the era of multiple remixes has given rise to a clause which provides that the writer/artist will only receive a mechanical royalty for one use of his/her song, regardless of the number of versions contained on the single or album.

If you think this seems confusing now, imagine how it feels to read it for the first time, as you're about to sign your first recording contract!

 

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  posted on 7/1/2008 at 01:46 PM
More on performing these covers..............from ASCAP


PERFORMING-RIGHT PAYMENTS


One of the greatest sources of income for songwriters and publishers is the money in royalty payments received from performing rights societies around the world. The performing right is one of the most important rights granted by a country's copyright laws. It is based on the concept that a writer's creation is a property right and that a license must be acquired by any user of music in order for that user to use [i.e. "perform"] a copyrighted musical work. When a song is played on the radio, on television, in a stadium, in a restaurant, over the Internet, etc., that is a "performance," and the radio or television station, stadium, etc., owes a royalty to the writer and publisher of the music.

Of the $3-billion-plus generated worldwide each year, the U.S. performing right organizations account for approximately $1 billion in collections, with writer- and publisher-owned ASCAP accounting for 55% of the total. These organizations negotiate license-fee agreements with the users of music (radio and TV stations, cable stations, concert halls, wired music services, airlines, etc.), which give the user the right to perform the music and lyrics of any member of these organizations. The license fees collected are then distributed to the writers and publishers whose works are performed in these various areas.

In the United States, the primary types of music use which generate performance royalties are feature performances (a "visual vocal" or "visual instrumental" -- i.e., a person shown singing or playing -- on TV, a radio performance of a song, etc.), background music on television series, specials, movies of the week and feature films, theme songs to TV series, TV logos and promos, advertising jingles, and copyrighted arrangements of public-domain compositions.

The value of each type of music use varies depending on which performing-right organization the writer and publisher belong to. Complicating matters further is the fact that two of the three organizations (ASCAP being the exception) change their payment rules without notice to their writers and publishers. Considering these numerous variables and nuances, it should be obvious that knowledge of the U.S. rules is absolutely essential for any creator, representative, or publisher.

It is truly amazing how much money can be made in the performing-rights area -- in fact, a fortune can be made from a single composition. For example, in just a few years, the #1 song of the year can generate a $2-million writer and publisher payout, the theme song from a successful TV series can generate more than $1.5 million over a 10-year period, and the background score of a top box-office film can generate well over $2 million in performance income during its copyright life (which is "Life Plus 70": it is protected for 70 after the last surviving author's death, after that, the copyright expires and the song becomes "public domain"). Although most writers never achieve this level of success, it's helpful to know what is possible at the top end

[Edited on 7/2/2008 by rottinpeach]

 

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  posted on 7/1/2008 at 04:40 PM
quote:
Curious though, do bands have to pay royalties to the writers when they play the cover live?


i played in my church band for a while and we had to take note of every song that we did because we had to pay the royalty. so yes, bands should be paying royalties for every cover they do, but i'm sure that they do not.

 

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  posted on 7/1/2008 at 05:59 PM
quote:
They do not play anything Dickey sang. Anything else they can play. The biggest DIckey number they should bring back is Nobody Knows.

Doug


Agreed fully -- the best 2-3 studio songs the ABB ever did IMO -- An Evening With version is good, ditto w/DB & GS but the ABB version on Shades of Two Worlds is amazing -- vocally, Gregg owns this one
lonomon, good call -- surely you're familiar with the Live Bootleg version of IMOER...

 

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  posted on 7/1/2008 at 06:32 PM
The one iron-clad rule regarding songs the ABB plays is that they MUST play Statesboro Blues at any show I attend.

 

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  posted on 7/1/2008 at 07:32 PM
quote:
The one iron-clad rule regarding songs the ABB plays is that they MUST play Statesboro Blues at any show I attend.





Actually for myself, that's the one song I would not miss if I never heard it live again.

If I want to hear it in it's best form I'll listen to FAFE
.

 

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  posted on 7/1/2008 at 07:49 PM
quote:
quote:
Curious though, do bands have to pay royalties to the writers when they play the cover live?


i played in my church band for a while and we had to take note of every song that we did because we had to pay the royalty. so yes, bands should be paying royalties for every cover they do, but i'm sure that they do not.


DO they do it per song? Or do they just pay an annual subscription fee.

Doug

 

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  posted on 7/2/2008 at 12:31 PM
My guess which is that, bands must join the association and their fees cover what ever songs they cover. I would assume the writers/songs they cover must be in that particular association
as well unless specified otherwise. I wonder how the bands/associations keep up with it all. Maybe all the bands involved submit all their setlists......... Maybe the venues cover it too.

Maybe some folks on this site, that play in a tribute band, cover band, etc could clue us in on this topic.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/2/2008 at 12:47 PM
quote:
lonomon, good call -- surely you're familiar with the Live Bootleg version of IMOER...


But of course ...

 

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