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Author: Subject: Alabama outlaws abortion

Peach Master



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  posted on 5/19/2019 at 10:34 AM
The fervor by some to impose their religious/philosophical/existential beliefs onto American citizens via the law & extend those beliefs into the medical decisions of strangers mystifies me. Adults have the absolute right to pursue or refuse medical treatment. Children's medical decisions are made by their parents. There is no other class of person beyond adult & child.

Embryos - whether created to be implanted & gestated through a mother or surrogate or frozen for future use are, by law, PROPERTY. They are owned by their creators & are subject to PROPERTY/CONTRACT law.

Religion may play a role in an individual's medical decision making. Certain life-saving interventions such as organ transplants, bone marrow transplants, blood transfusions, artificial respiration, feeding tubes, and even pain relief are anathema to some established religions. As a result, people whose lives might otherwise have been saved, die. However, those religiously-guided people apply their deeply held beliefs only to themselves & don't impose or attempt to impose them on the rest of America.

The US isn't a theocracy like The Vatican or Iran. It's a democracy w/a constitution that intentionally & forcefully divides politics & religion. We are free to adhere to our religious beliefs but don't have the right to impose them on others. Discrimination is also prohibited. Many states' attempts to circumvent federal law merely create discrimination. There are women & girls who will always have access to abortion. Those who won't are the most vulnerable women & girls thereby creating discrimination & the unconstitutionality of these state exercises in futility.

Believe abortion is wrong. Don't have one. Ask/beg your wife, daughter, girlfriend, one-night-stand, mistress or whoever is pregnant by you not to have one. Beyond that, put your efforts into constitutionally valid causes that benefit the security & stability of the US.





 

Sublime Peach



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  posted on 5/19/2019 at 10:41 AM
quote:
This will have validity the moment Men can give birth, until that time, women have the power to control the choice concerning the responsibility of becoming pregnant.


Controlling male fertility is a perfectly valid and feasible possibility with current technology. Men also possess the "power to control the choice concerning the responsibility of becoming pregnant", as you put it.


[Edited on 5/19/2019 by BrerRabbit]

 

Sublime Peach



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  posted on 5/19/2019 at 10:50 AM
quote:
The fervor by some to impose their religious/philosophical/existential beliefs onto American citizens via the law & extend those beliefs into the medical decisions of strangers mystifies me. Adults have the absolute right to pursue or refuse medical treatment. Children's medical decisions are made by their parents. There is no other class of person beyond adult & child.

Embryos - whether created to be implanted & gestated through a mother or surrogate or frozen for future use are, by law, PROPERTY. They are owned by their creators & are subject to PROPERTY/CONTRACT law.

Religion may play a role in an individual's medical decision making. Certain life-saving interventions such as organ transplants, bone marrow transplants, blood transfusions, artificial respiration, feeding tubes, and even pain relief are anathema to some established religions. As a result, people whose lives might otherwise have been saved, die. However, those religiously-guided people apply their deeply held beliefs only to themselves & don't impose or attempt to impose them on the rest of America.

The US isn't a theocracy like The Vatican or Iran. It's a democracy w/a constitution that intentionally & forcefully divides politics & religion. We are free to adhere to our religious beliefs but don't have the right to impose them on others. Discrimination is also prohibited. Many states' attempts to circumvent federal law merely create discrimination. There are women & girls who will always have access to abortion. Those who won't are the most vulnerable women & girls thereby creating discrimination & the unconstitutionality of these state exercises in futility.

Believe abortion is wrong. Don't have one. Ask/beg your wife, daughter, girlfriend, one-night-stand, mistress or whoever is pregnant by you not to have one. Beyond that, put your efforts into constitutionally valid causes that benefit the security & stability of the US.


Good post cyclone - unfortunately your rational approach to the equation does not factor in the absolute madness and invasive self-righteous bullying of the hardwired evangelical program.

[Edited on 5/19/2019 by BrerRabbit]

 

Sublime Peach



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  posted on 5/19/2019 at 11:05 AM
Written by an elderly relative of mine, about getting an abortion in the early 1930s, she was already married with three kids, and working as a nurse for Red Cross:


Recalling Illegal Abortion

Over 50 years ago I had an abortion. Of course, at that time it was illegal, but there was no public protest or self-righteous moralizing, either, as there is today. At that time, birth control information was as hard to obtain as abortion information, even from doctors.

There was a nightmare quality to the fear of finding oneself pregnant when not wanting a pregnancy. I have a friend, well past menopause, who says she still sometimes starts from sleep with that feeling of dreaded entrapment.

In my case, the reason for seeking an abortion was that, having had two spontaneous miscarriages at the seventh month period, facing another pregnancy so soon was insupportable. A delivery at seven months is not too different from a full-term delivery. There is the same labor, trauma of delivery and period of recovery. Those who performed abortions did so very secretly and, if discovered, were arrested and sent to jail. The label abortionist carried great stigma.

Considering these facts, it is rather surprising that it was relatively easy to learn where an abortion could be obtained. The information we needed came from someone at my husband’s work place, and the recommended place was said to be reliable. And so it proved to be.

I made a visit to the "clinic" to be interviewed and registered. Naturally, I went alone and without the knowledge of anyone. At the appointed date, I went to the place, which was in one of San Francisco’s many old row houses, in a quiet, edge-of-town area.

The operation was performed in a room that, while not hospital-like, was clean and spacious. Everything about the procedure and place had the appearance of being sanitary and carefully arranged.

The man who did the abortion wore a hood over his head, so I never would have been able to identify him. The nurse who attended him wore nothing over her face.

Afterward I was allowed to rest in a clean and comfortable bed for about an hour, when I was released to go home, on the streetcar.

In light of today’s antiabortion uproar, it seemed an easy, uneventful experience. It is my opinion many of those who make the loudest and most vocal protest have little knowledge about the subject. Someone leads and they rise up and follow. One has to wonder, also, if some of those are motivated by an uneasy conscience.

At any rate, I had no feeling of guilt at the time, nor have I ever regretted the decision, which was unequivocally mine to make.

[Edited on 5/19/2019 by BrerRabbit]

 

Peach Master



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  posted on 5/19/2019 at 11:30 AM
quote:
unfortunately your rational approach to the equation does not factor in the absolute madness and invasive self-righteous bullying of the hardwired evangelical program.
[Edited on 5/19/2019 by BrerRabbit]

I naively or not still believe in law, reason & the constitution - after all, Roe was decided by 9 MEN. I also live in the very cramped quarters of NYC where tolerance is necessary to survive, but I wonder what politicians & candidates would look like if this 50-year-old law was taken out of the equation.

 

Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 5/19/2019 at 11:50 AM
quote:
This will have validity the moment Men can give birth, until that time, women have the power to control the choice concerning the responsibility of becoming pregnant.

Last I checked how condoms worked, Men do have the power to control whether or not they decide to roll the dice. Unless your name is Mary, it still takes two. However, as long as men can walk away from the responsibility (or defund the means to readily available contraceptives) women should be allowed to make the choice.

 

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Sublime Peach



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  posted on 5/19/2019 at 02:12 PM
This has gotta be a Whipping Post first: 80+ posts so far on an extremely controversial topic - folks actually offering opposing views without beating each other up, or going for the throat, calling each other idiots and worse.



 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 5/19/2019 at 05:50 PM
quote:
quote:
This will have validity the moment Men can give birth, until that time, women have the power to control the choice concerning the responsibility of becoming pregnant.

Last I checked how condoms worked, Men do have the power to control whether or not they decide to roll the dice. Unless your name is Mary, it still takes two. However, as long as men can walk away from the responsibility (or defund the means to readily available contraceptives) women should be allowed to make the choice.


I guess my belief is the ultimate decision for consensual sex lies with the woman and the word "NO"....Men can wear a condom and women can say no.....

 

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Sublime Peach



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  posted on 5/19/2019 at 06:21 PM
quote:
. . .the ultimate decision for consensual sex lies with the woman and the word "NO". . .


Fine then, blame women if it that is your tradition, nobody can challenge your personal beliefs. Either way, whether men or women are to blame is a matter of private opinion and has no bearing on women's rights as they stand at present.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 5/19/2019 at 06:30 PM
quote:
This has gotta be a Whipping Post first: 80+ posts so far on an extremely controversial topic - folks actually offering opposing views without beating each other up, or going for the throat, calling each other idiots and worse.





Yeah, well, BoytonBrother hasn't posted yet, has he?

 

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Sublime Peach



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  posted on 5/19/2019 at 06:44 PM
Lol. In my case it is a nice break from being called junior son the bloodthirsty genocidal nihlist anarchist biggest racist on Whipping Post.

well remarkably civil, and not in a phony or boring way too.

 

Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 5/20/2019 at 07:31 AM
quote:
I guess my belief is the ultimate decision for consensual sex lies with the woman and the word "NO"....Men can wear a condom and women can say no.....

"Consensual" means both agree. If a dude doesn't wear a condom, to paraphrase some here, his actions have consequences.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2019 at 08:34 AM
quote:
quote:
I guess my belief is the ultimate decision for consensual sex lies with the woman and the word "NO"....Men can wear a condom and women can say no.....

"Consensual" means both agree. If a dude doesn't wear a condom, to paraphrase some here, his actions have consequences.


Agreed. If a dude doesn’t wear a condom and it is consensual, could one argue that it is the woman’s choice to become pregnant?

 

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Sublime Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2019 at 08:54 AM
quote:
If a dude doesn’t wear a condom and it is consensual, could one argue that it is the woman’s choice to become pregnant?


Sure, one could argue that, if one were a conservative legislator grasping at straws to outlaw abortion in one of the many states doing so. I don't see any other reason one would argue along those lines.

"Pro-choice" means you can opt out of having a child. Whether or not you wanted to become pregnant in the first place.

So what is your point with this continuing attempt to prove that women want to get pregnant?

Are you one of these "she was asking for it" type of guys?



 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2019 at 09:00 AM
quote:
quote:
If a dude doesn’t wear a condom and it is consensual, could one argue that it is the woman’s choice to become pregnant?


Sure, one could argue that, if one were a conservative legislator grasping at straws to outlaw abortion in one of the many states doing so. I don't see any other reason one would argue along those lines.

"Pro-choice" means you can opt out of having a child. Whether or not you wanted to become pregnant in the first place.

So what is your point with this continuing attempt to prove that women want to get pregnant?

Are you one of these "she was asking for it" type of guys?


I am Pro-Choice and yes I have a difficult time with this issue. I feel the argument has swung to the side where woman are totally without blame here in defense of their right to choose...

At what point is an abortion wrong?

 

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Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 5/20/2019 at 09:01 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
I guess my belief is the ultimate decision for consensual sex lies with the woman and the word "NO"....Men can wear a condom and women can say no.....

"Consensual" means both agree. If a dude doesn't wear a condom, to paraphrase some here, his actions have consequences.

Agreed. If a dude doesn’t wear a condom and it is consensual, could one argue that it is the woman’s choice to become pregnant?

It's also the man's choice to make her pregnant. Otherwise this is an incredibly narrow view that ignores many factors or possibilities (faulty birth control, irregular cycle, many other issues that women are better able to relate than you and I). There is an eagerness here to blame 1 party for the actions of 2 for something that often is an accident. But since we agree women should have the choice to control their body after the fact, I'm not going to argue the semantics and various factors of how a man might get a woman pregnant since the "how" is irrelevant.

 

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Sublime Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2019 at 09:22 AM


quote:
At what point is an abortion wrong


That depends on where you live.




 

Peach Master



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  posted on 5/20/2019 at 09:25 AM
There's a lot of chat about condom use for consenting adults. Quite frankly, if a guy isn't using a condom w/anyone other than his faithful wife, he's open to STDs plus pregnancy. The old adage you're not just sleeping w/her, you're sleeping w/all the other guys she's been with...

I'm more concerned about abortion for the 11-yr-old girl who is abused by her (father, brother, mom's boyfriend, neighborhood predator, uncle, grandfather, fill-in-the-blank), a college student roofied & raped by an entitled frat boy, a pregnant married woman who discovers she has cancer & is told life-saving chemo will severely damage the fetus, & the Halle Berry phenom where a 47-yr-old married woman who believes her family is complete & has been told by her doc she's beyond child-bearing age discovers she has a "geriatric pregnancy" w/health risks to herself & the fetus.


 

Sublime Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2019 at 09:39 AM
All valid.

Hey! What about this idea, not mentioned by anyone so far, on either side: All rape incest health dramatics and tragice extremes aside:

What if someone just plain does not wish to continue with a pregnancy? What if they simply do not feel like it?

Wow, what a radical notion. That it is a basic right, and you can shove your moralizing. Amazing how the religious programmng framed the question in terms of "extreme cases", just one small push more to "in no cases".


 

Peach Master



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  posted on 5/20/2019 at 10:00 AM
quote:
What about this idea, not mentioned by anyone so far, on either side:

And here I thought you read my posts.

My first (& only) point was that abortion is legal. Period. 9 MEN decided that 50 years ago.

It's the attempt to restrict if not deny universal access that keeps dragging this single law into the political arena to the exclusion of more urgent policy legislation & decisions. Think of all the time, money, and brain power that might be applied to actual issues!!!!!

 

Sublime Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2019 at 10:19 AM
cyclone yes I did read your posts. You did spell it out. It is just surreal that even ostensibly "pro-choice" voters are getting all wishywashy with all this "extreme cases" apologistics. The whole conversation is way out on the right now. Folks forget that we live in the modern world, where termination of pregnancy is legal, safe, available, and affordable. Forcing the issue out to hang on rape, incest, all that is just a push toward banning.
 

Peach Master



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  posted on 5/20/2019 at 11:26 AM
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Folks forget that we live in the modern world, where termination of pregnancy is legal, safe, available, and affordable

Those who find this unacceptable also cling to the mystifying belief that adoption is a slam/dunk alternative. Realistically, many affluent couples prefer to adopt a baby from Eastern Europe and Eurasia than the US & those are the most heavily promoted agencies for private adoption conduits.

IMO, affluent women rely increasingly on non-invasive post-intercourse procedures like medication & devices in addition to abortion. Big Pharma (which DOES have influence in DC) has more efficient, effective, & wider window alternatives in the pipeline. I foresee a time when abortion is an obsolete invasive medical procedure & Roe is moot.

Would it help if I called you son so the thread is livelier?




 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2019 at 11:44 AM
quote:
Think of all the time, money, and brain power that might be applied to actual issues!!!!!




Kinda like Congress?

 

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Sublime Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2019 at 12:04 PM

quote:
Would it help if I called you son so the thread is livelier?


No problem junior!

 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2019 at 06:38 PM
I appreciate cyclone88's contributions to this thread!
 
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