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Author: Subject: Herschel Walker on why Colin Kaepernick is Out of Work

Zen Peach



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  posted on 5/27/2018 at 01:43 AM
quote:
My family owns a small business, and if an employee brings a protest to the store, I'd hope my family fires them immediately for creating a financial risk.


And if the owners start firing these guys?

 

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  posted on 5/27/2018 at 08:23 AM
Here is a very interesting spin on this from a post by a friend of mine on Facebook. I think he really hits home:

"Actually looking at constitutional law, the first amendment only applies to the government. A business owner, ( a private entity) has the right to implement policy and procedures, codes of conduct and behavior on and off the field. If there was a violation of constitutional law, you can bet your last buck that Kap would already have this in court suing for first amendment violation, but that isn't the case. The First Amendment doesn't give us the right of free speech to the degree most believe it does."

 

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  posted on 5/27/2018 at 08:40 AM
Player conduct is collectively bargained. The only recourse for ownership is not putting a guy on the field of play, fines, or outright release.

As this is an entertainment industry, the truest form of protest would be if players simply refused to play.

 

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  posted on 5/27/2018 at 09:34 AM
quote:
quote:

So when people picket their work conditions they should do it where?...there is peaceful protest at job sites and has been for the entire American experiment...

The idea that kneeling is disrespectful is a joke. I took a knee before my wife when I asked her to marry me. I kneel at the coffin of a lost loved one. When I visit the cemetery I spend a lot of time kneeling at my grandparents and parents graves. I was brought up catholic and we kneel multiple time during mass. We kneel when we take confession and when we say our prayers.

Only in the Azzxwipe world of Donald Trump and his neo-nazi supporters does kneeling become disrespectful. If anyone has been following, it was a former vet that told Kap to kneel because that's what they do for their fallen to show "Respect"

Are they going to shut down the concessions and close the restroom too?...will the Dictator tell us all we "MUST" stand. Is everyone going to turn their phones off and stand? Are we all at home going to stand??? do you now???

Has anyone here ever picketed their place of employment??? Has anyone seen protests going on outside of private businesses

Ya all have forgotten what our families fought for in the those 2 world wars....we're too far removed from what they set up for us and what is now being destroyed.

Donald Trump is not king and little to nothing of what he bring to the table is worth a moments thought....


Just an FYI Ron, I've made a lot of comments here and in fact I started this thread. And I never ONCE had anything that Donald Trump has done or said in mind when discussing this issue. So to me, your post is a bit off base. As far as I'm concerned, this issue is between the owners and the players (and quite possibly the court) and it was an issue before Donald Trump ever got involved.

[Edited on 5/27/2018 by robslob]


I never said you made a comment about Trump...he is the one that escalated this to the level it got to. He's the one that spun it to be about the flag and not human rights. Kneeling is a sign of respect in so many ways. If anyone goes to church and they kneel during their service I guess now that means you're disrespecting god...

The issue about talent is mute to me...he's has enough to be on a team...maybe not start but he has skills...

Protesting at work can cause anyone to lose a job but we have the right to do it...just as we have the 1a right to say what we wish...even if it shows us to be ignorant and we get back lash for it...are their limits yes and were testing them. But to "Demand" people to stand for a song is authoritarianism at its highest. Again does any one here stand at home??...are they going to close the concessions demand every stand? why is it just a demand on the players and not everyone at the stadium? Should the NFL put on the ticket that you are required as spectator to stand for the anthem. They put on the ticket that they release themselves from any legal liability from situations that happens to you at the stadium...if you read the fine print on your ticket.

It got to this point from the rhetoric from DT

[Edited on 5/27/2018 by goldtop]

 

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  posted on 5/27/2018 at 12:21 PM
quote:
Here is a very interesting spin on this from a post by a friend of mine on Facebook. I think he really hits home:

"Actually looking at constitutional law, the first amendment only applies to the government. A business owner, ( a private entity) has the right to implement policy and procedures, codes of conduct and behavior on and off the field. If there was a violation of constitutional law, you can bet your last buck that Kap would already have this in court suing for first amendment violation, but that isn't the case. The First Amendment doesn't give us the right of free speech to the degree most believe it does."


Your argument makes no sense. What is correct in that statement is that free speech applies to the government as to what is covered by the term free speech. If I were to call you a criminal racist, that is not covered by free speech. If I call Trump a racist or say that Congress is corrupt, that is covered by free speech. The taking of the knee is covered by the First Amendment as it is a protest against the government (in the case police departments). There is nothing in that amendment that says where and when it is applicable.

BTW, when NFL owners close concession stands when the anthem is played, I will believe that they are serious about this.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 5/27/2018 at 12:26 PM
The solution to this was to revert back to the policy of 2008 and prior where the players took the field after the Anthem.

Why are the players in Baseball & Basketball not kneeling?

 

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  posted on 5/27/2018 at 01:30 PM
quote:
The solution to this was to revert back to the policy of 2008 and prior where the players took the field after the Anthem.

Why are the players in Baseball & Basketball not kneeling?


Players have knelt in the NBA. One player in MLB knelt. He was Bruce Maxwell of Oakland who came from a military family. For whatever reason, MLB players seem to lean more to the right than in other sports.

 

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  posted on 5/27/2018 at 01:33 PM
quote:
And if the owners start firing these guys?


They’d probably get picked up by another owner who has a need. This is capitalism working as intended.

 

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  posted on 5/27/2018 at 02:26 PM
quote:
Actually looking at constitutional law, the first amendment only applies to the government. A business owner, ( a private entity) has the right to implement policy and procedures, codes of conduct and behavior on and off the field. If there was a violation of constitutional law, you can bet your last buck that Kap would already have this in court suing for first amendment violation, but that isn't the case. The First Amendment doesn't give us the right of free speech to the degree most believe it does.


It sounds like this person is confusing the issue of what free speech covers legally and professionally. People face professional consequences for what they say all the time - people get fired for tweets, statements, or actions that can potentially reflect poorly on their employer. But they can still say it, the "right to free speech" allows people to say stuff without facing legal consequences. So the idiot Nazis that marched last year can do so legally, but their employer can fire them when they see them yelling on TV and realize their H.R. guy's haircut is a 40s throwback and not a modern hipster style.

Kap was never fired, he opted out of his own contract to become a free agent and was never re-signed by another team so I'm not sure what this person thinks Kap's potential First Amendment case would even be. No one is saying the NFL or teams can't have a policy (Yankees can't even grow beards which are still legal), people are saying that they disagree with this policy. But rules are made to be broken - a protest that follows all the rules wouldn't get much attention. However, professional sports teams invest millions of dollars and time into players, so they'd have to do something pretty egregious to face discipline or losing their job (and in some cases, not even then).

Honestly, if the kneeling was just ignored, it would all go away. It's such a misdirected protest with a good message by a dumb athlete, and even dumber people are getting mad because they don't understand the dumb athlete's worthwhile message.

quote:
MLB players seem to lean more to the right than in other sports.


I think it's mostly because it's not their fight. The kneeling had mostly gone away last season until Trump threw some kerosene on the issue for the sake of a few cheers from his choir. Also, the MLB is much more diverse, nationality-wise, than any of the other major sports (Puig and Tanaka aren't likely to take a knee). The NFL is the most American in that regard.

 

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  posted on 5/27/2018 at 03:25 PM
quote:
quote:
Actually looking at constitutional law, the first amendment only applies to the government. A business owner, ( a private entity) has the right to implement policy and procedures, codes of conduct and behavior on and off the field. If there was a violation of constitutional law, you can bet your last buck that Kap would already have this in court suing for first amendment violation, but that isn't the case. The First Amendment doesn't give us the right of free speech to the degree most believe it does.


It sounds like this person is confusing the issue of what free speech covers legally and professionally. People face professional consequences for what they say all the time - people get fired for tweets, statements, or actions that can potentially reflect poorly on their employer. But they can still say it, the "right to free speech" allows people to say stuff without facing legal consequences. So the idiot Nazis that marched last year can do so legally, but their employer can fire them when they see them yelling on TV and realize their H.R. guy's haircut is a 40s throwback and not a modern hipster style.

Kap was never fired, he opted out of his own contract to become a free agent and was never re-signed by another team so I'm not sure what this person thinks Kap's potential First Amendment case would even be. No one is saying the NFL or teams can't have a policy (Yankees can't even grow beards which are still legal), people are saying that they disagree with this policy. But rules are made to be broken - a protest that follows all the rules wouldn't get much attention. However, professional sports teams invest millions of dollars and time into players, so they'd have to do something pretty egregious to face discipline or losing their job (and in some cases, not even then).

Honestly, if the kneeling was just ignored, it would all go away. It's such a misdirected protest with a good message by a dumb athlete, and even dumber people are getting mad because they don't understand the dumb athlete's worthwhile message.

quote:
MLB players seem to lean more to the right than in other sports.


I think it's mostly because it's not their fight. The kneeling had mostly gone away last season until Trump threw some kerosene on the issue for the sake of a few cheers from his choir. Also, the MLB is much more diverse, nationality-wise, than any of the other major sports (Puig and Tanaka aren't likely to take a knee). The NFL is the most American in that regard.


The kneeling for the anthem has been mostly done by black players. There are not many black players in baseball.

 

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  posted on 5/28/2018 at 02:30 AM
quote:
I think it's mostly because it's not their fight. The kneeling had mostly gone away last season until Trump threw some kerosene on the issue for the sake of a few cheers from his choir. Also, the MLB is much more diverse, nationality-wise, than any of the other major sports (Puig and Tanaka aren't likely to take a knee). The NFL is the most American in that regard.


The focus has shifted from being about Black Americans taking a stand against Police Departments nationwide that choose to "Enforce the Law" as they see fit versus the politics of whether or not people have the right to protest by kneeling during the Anthem. If the original idea was to bring that plight into the public eye, then why are not Baseball and Basketball players following suit? Surely there are Black players in both sports who take this issue very seriously, very possibly because it has happened to them or someone they know personally. Either it is an issue affecting the Black community or it is not. If you wear the uniform of an NBA franchise, or you represent a MBL team and you are Black, this topic hits you. Either way, you have a huge national audience and if this issue means anything to you and you are Black....then....

This is the Rule in the NBA: "Players, coaches and trainers are to stand and line up in a dignified posture along the sidelines or on the foul line during the playing of the national anthem."

The NBA suspended Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf in 1995 for one game without pay, a loss of $31,707. Afterward, he agreed to stand -- but pray -- during the anthem.

Baseball has no rule

The NFL now has 6 rules

quote:
The kneeling for the anthem has been mostly done by black players. There are not many black players in baseball.


But there sure are in Basketball, approx 8% more. Is the NBA wrong for having a rule in place?...and then enforcing it?

Or maybe it's just an NFL thing

 

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  posted on 5/28/2018 at 10:43 AM
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Either it is an issue affecting the Black community or it is not.


Dude, an entire group of people aren't bound to each others' way of protest just because of the color of their skin. There are different ways of working for change and against prejudice, and it doesn't have to enter every person's professional life. Choosing not to protest in a counter-productive way doesn't prove that other athletes don't care about the issue.

 

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  posted on 5/28/2018 at 11:07 AM
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If the original idea was to bring that plight into the public eye, then why are not Baseball and Basketball players following suit?


It was something that Kaepernick decided to do. Because Kap wanted to do it, all black athletes should follow him? Why? If they don't follow him like sheep, then they don't care about it the issue? If that's how you feel, then you should follow protests of other people of your race, because if you don't, then you don't care about it.

quote:
Surely there are Black players in both sports who take this issue very seriously, very possibly because it has happened to them or someone they know personally.


Agreed. And since they aren't doing what Kap decided to do, then it means something to you I guess. Interesting.

quote:
Either it is an issue affecting the Black community or it is not.


Which do you believe?

quote:
If you wear the uniform of an NBA franchise, or you represent a MBL team and you are Black, this topic hits you.


With all due respect, you don't get to speak for them. It might, it might not. Some people may just want to focus on their family and avoid the drama that is the news.

quote:
Either way, you have a huge national audience and if this issue means anything to you and you are Black....then....


Then what? Stop beating around the bush.

quote:
But there sure are in Basketball, approx 8% more. Is the NBA wrong for having a rule in place?...and then enforcing it?

Or maybe it's just an NFL thing


Who are you angry with? You sound all over the place? Are you mad at the NBA players for not protesting, that they don't care about the cause? Or are you angry with the people who are angry at the NFL? Or are you angry with the NFL players? I hear a lot of code and insinuation, but no statements.

 

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  posted on 5/28/2018 at 06:28 PM
https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2018/5/25/17394422/nfl-knee-kneeling-labor -law-kaepernick-free-speech-protest-owners

Just to prove that I have an open mind on this subject, here's an excellent and very informative article from a "professor of labor and industry at Harvard Law." Legally he sides with the players here.

 

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  posted on 5/29/2018 at 01:45 AM
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Are you mad at the NBA players for not protesting, that they don't care about the cause?



Mad? Please. I find it odd that this cause has boundaries. Evidently, No Black men in the NBA care enough to be involved. Just Blacks in the NFL are harassed by the Police.

 

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  posted on 5/29/2018 at 02:01 AM
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As originally stated when I started this post, my position in that an NFL team is the owner's entity and if they choose not to have political protests at their games they have every right to enforce that.


I agree Rob. The NBA has a rule that it chooses to enforce. Perhaps this is the reason no one in the NBA is participating; there is the very real possibility of losing quite a bit of money. Do the NBA players see absolutely no value in the "Black Lives matter" movement?...Look at the stage and the size of the audience available with the Cavs & Warriors next up. Is this not one of the biggest arguments put forth in defense of Kaepernick's actions?...Look at all of the publicity and attention to the cause with so many people watching.

 

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  posted on 5/29/2018 at 07:55 AM
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I find it odd that this cause has boundaries. Evidently, No Black men in the NBA care enough to be involved.


What is your point? Are you criticizing them or applauding them for not reacting the same as Kaepernick?

quote:
Just Blacks in the NFL are harassed by the Police.


Why do you believe this?

 

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  posted on 5/29/2018 at 08:13 AM
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The NBA has a rule that it chooses to enforce. Perhaps this is the reason no one in the NBA is participating. there is the very real possibility of losing quite a bit of money. ;


It’s probably more than one reason and not quite that simplistic.

quote:
Do the NBA players see absolutely no value in the "Black Lives matter" movement?...Look at the stage and the size of the audience available with the Cavs & Warriors next up. Is this not one of the biggest arguments put forth in defense of Kaepernick's actions?...Look at all of the publicity and attention to the cause with so many people watching.


Interesting conjecture. Publicity may not be what they need at this point. maybe they feel that Kaepernick completed a huge first step, and they are planning how to take the next one. So many possibilities and this story is just beginning.

 

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  posted on 5/29/2018 at 08:17 AM
From ESPN, if Kaepernick kneeled in protest over the mistreatment of veterans upon returning home from war, would those same opponents see “taking a knee” as disrespectful to the flag? Probably not. But because it’s about equal rights for black people, all of a sudden it’s disrespectful to the flag. Anyone who claimed this should explain.
 

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  posted on 5/29/2018 at 09:46 AM
quote:
quote:
Are you mad at the NBA players for not protesting, that they don't care about the cause?


Mad? Please. I find it odd that this cause has boundaries.



As I mentioned, the absence of protesting in one specific way doesn't prove that NBA plaeyers don't care about the issue. Black people aren't a hive mind. Just ask these guys:







quote:
Evidently, No Black men in the NBA care enough to be involved. Just Blacks in the NFL are harassed by the Police.


Nope. Just ask the Milwaukee Bucks' Sterling Brown.

Police apologize, release video of arrest, tasing of Bucks' Sterling Brown : http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23586406/video-shows-arrest-tasing-sterl ing-brown-milwaukee-bucks



[Edited on 5/29/2018 by porkchopbob]

 

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  posted on 5/29/2018 at 09:53 AM
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From ESPN, if Kaepernick kneeled in protest over the mistreatment of veterans upon returning home from war, would those same opponents see “taking a knee” as disrespectful to the flag? Probably not. But because it’s about equal rights for black people, all of a sudden it’s disrespectful to the flag. Anyone who claimed this should explain.


Some would argue that reverence (standing, not kneeling, with caps or helmets off) during the anthem is a sign of respect and acknowledgement of our veterans and all the hardships that they have endured.

[Edited on 5/29/2018 by robslob]

 

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  posted on 5/29/2018 at 10:16 AM
Some would argue that kneeling during the anthem is reverence. Shouldn’t you be tolerant of that view?
 

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  posted on 5/29/2018 at 11:51 AM
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Some would argue that kneeling during the anthem is reverence. Shouldn’t you be tolerant of that view?


Tolerant?...As in being able to accept ideas that I don't agree with?...Sure, but I still disagree, I just won't get angry and stoop to name calling.

 

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  posted on 5/29/2018 at 11:58 AM
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Some would argue that kneeling during the anthem is reverence. Shouldn’t you be tolerant of that view?


I'm not sure why you'd attempt to confuse the issue further, because that's not their intent any more than it is to protest against troops.

 

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  posted on 5/29/2018 at 12:03 PM
For the record I have always stood when the anthem is played and I'm at a sporting event....I've also noticed many who don't...I have seen people not take their hats off and this was all long before any if these issues came to light.

I think sitting is disrespectful but again I never say anything to someone who doesn't stand. But again the idea that kneeling is disrespectful is comical and ludicrous. I won't list all the things we do in life to show respect when we kneel. I let you all think about that for awhile...But in terms of body language it a submissive act...as when being knighted by the queen or king or praying to god...good enough to pray to god not good enough for a song...hum....

My issue is when anyone thinks they can demand an American to stand for a song or a flag or anything...if you like it or not that isn't freedom...to be forced to stand is authoritarianism. I'm asking are we so far removed from what we fought for in WWI and WWII that we're ready to become a dictatorship and give up 240+ years of democracy over Donald Trump the most useless man ever born?? and his useless words and lack of true American values? over a song?

 

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