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Author: Subject: Now we can impeach him - How long will it take

Peach Pro



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  posted on 1/22/2017 at 07:09 PM
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Not entirely. Obamacare was a reaction to a legitimate societal need.


Even the idea that the government (or the taxpayers) is responsible for addressing that societal need is a political ideology, and one that not everyone shares. I stopped reading after this...so can't comment on your other points.

 

Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 1/22/2017 at 07:14 PM
quote:
quote:
Not entirely. Obamacare was a reaction to a legitimate societal need.


Even the idea that the government (or the taxpayers) is responsible for addressing that societal need is a political ideology, and one that not everyone shares. I stopped reading after this...so can't comment on your other points.


So, building roads, schools, having police departments, fire departments, a standing military force to protect us are a political ideology? And that is bad?

Since you refused to read the rest of his post, we can add lazy and narrow minded to your list of perceived flaws.

 

Peach Pro



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  posted on 1/22/2017 at 07:31 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
Not entirely. Obamacare was a reaction to a legitimate societal need.


Even the idea that the government (or the taxpayers) is responsible for addressing that societal need is a political ideology, and one that not everyone shares. I stopped reading after this...so can't comment on your other points.


So, building roads, schools, having police departments, fire departments, a standing military force to protect us are a political ideology? And that is bad?

Since you refused to read the rest of his post, we can add lazy and narrow minded to your list of perceived flaws.


How one thinks we should go about doing those things, providing those services, and how we should pay for them is largely determined by one's political ideology. And I never said all government is bad, or that all political ideologies have negative impacts. I said that they can also have positive impacts. But if you had read my posts you would already know this. So I'm not the only lazy one.

And the primary point being debated was whether or not political ideology affects/impacts our lives. BoyntonBrother says "no". I say "yes". I used Obamacare as evidence that it does. Whether you are pro-OC or anti-OC is irrelevant (at least to the point being debated). The only question is...did Obamacare impact peoples' lives? I am living proof that it did. That's why I didn't read any further...I'm not interested in discussing the pros/cons of Obamacare.




 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 1/22/2017 at 08:04 PM
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quote:
quote:
Wah wah, the government is to blame for your income now? Whatever happened to working harder for the income you want?


Oh, OK...so now I have to go find a higher paying job or work more hours just to maintain the same level of income. Great! Well, at least you are finally acknowledging that political ideologies negatively impact me and my family. We're making some progress now.

You are so lost here. What don't you get? Someone's or some party's political ideology lead to the implementation of Obamacare. I now pay a higher premium, have a higher deductible, etc. which means less net income in my pocket every month. That is a negative impact to me that is a result of a political ideology. Your suggestion...work harder...so now we have another negative impact to me and my family.

Before Obamacare: Good health insurance policy, lower premiums, lower deductibles.

After Obamacare: Higher premiums, higher deductibles - both of which result in less money in my pocket. And according to you I must now work harder to maintain the same level of income.

So...a worse insurance policy, less money in my pocket, more work resulting in less free time to spend with my family and doing the things that I enjoy, etc. So tell me again how political ideologies have no impact on my life? And tell me again why I should not be opposed to something that negatively impacts me and my family?

And keep in mind that Obamacare is just one small example of how politics intersects with and impacts our lives.




What you and so many others failed to understand is that the ACA was intended so that everyone would be able to get insurance, but the premiums are set by the insurance companies.


Set by the insurance companies after the government forced them into what to include in their policies, who and what to cover.

Not that that would effect prices.

 

Peach Pro



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  posted on 1/22/2017 at 08:18 PM
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quote:
So I guess that makes it OK? Didn't we just have the double standard/hypocrisy discussion? If these folks thought it was vulgar, shouldn't they have tried to rise above that vulgarity and have a higher standard? If Trump thinks that some women are nasty and vulgar...well, I would have to say that many of them proved him right yesterday. Would it not have been better to come out and be classy, intelligent, and articulate as a response to Trump? Instead they protested vulgarity by being equally vulgar. And my questions/comments are directed at the ones who acted that way. I realize that they are not representative of all women or all of the protestors.


It's called context, they reappropriated his own words. Often times, quite sharply and wittily. They are responding to what they found insulting. How do you protest words and actions you find horrible by extracting them from your own protest? And how vulgar is "nasty" - what are you a Puritan? They peacefully protested? That is about as classy as you can get. You want them to burn Trump in effigy as many did Obama in 2008? You may not agree with what they protested, but you can't argue with how they protested.


I don't have a problem with them protesting...it’s their right…but apparently some of the stuff they were doing was too lewd and vulgar to even show on the news. And you know there were kids and teenagers at the march. I thought back to the commercial that Hillary had during the campaign...the one that showed the kids watching all of Trump's antics. But I guess it was OK for these same kids and young people to see the vulgar things that were displayed at the march...and I'm sure these kids totally understood the context (sarcasm). And I guess we just have different perspectives on what classy is. And, yes...I get what they were doing, and the context and all...but to protest vulgarity with more vulgarity is hypocritical in my book. Not to mention that women who are pro-life were not allowed to partner with the march. So much for women being united, and all that diversity and inclusiveness BS...

It would have been nice if Trump had in some way acknowledged the folks at the march...let them know that he hears them, ease some of their concerns, etc. And going forward it would be great if he would set up some town halls or other types of forums with some representatives of those groups and have some open dialog with them. I know...that's crazy talk...and I won't hold my breath, but I think that would be a great move on his part if he really wants to start healing some of the division in this country.

[Edited on 1/23/2017 by Redfish7]

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 1/22/2017 at 08:21 PM
quote:

So that is why United, Humana and Aetna are withdrawing from some state exchanges...too much profit?



Why aren't they withdrawing from them all?

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 1/22/2017 at 08:29 PM
quote:
quote:
Not entirely. Obamacare was a reaction to a legitimate societal need.


Even the idea that the government (or the taxpayers) is responsible for addressing that societal need is a political ideology, and one that not everyone shares. I stopped reading after this...so can't comment on your other points.


If no change had been made, by 2040 Medicare and Medicaid spending would require 40% (yes, 40%) of GDP.

The tax rate would have to go to 50% for everyone to cover that.

That has nothing to do with political ideology, that's fiscal reality.

You might go ahead and say that Medicare and Medicaid are bad programs too. That doesn't change the fact that millions of people had Medicare deductions taken out of the paychecks for most or all of their working lives and still may face having no assistance at all when the time comes.

There's still the matter of millions of people not having insurance, which may or may not include the 76 million Baby Boomers getting older by the minute and a healthcare system that would be further behind the 8-ball than ever.

Then what do we do?

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 1/22/2017 at 08:31 PM
quote:
Whether you are pro-OC or anti-OC is irrelevant (at least to the point being debated). The only question is...did Obamacare impact peoples' lives? I am living proof that it did. That's why I didn't read any further...I'm not interested in discussing the pros/cons of Obamacare.


So, get rid of it. Then what?

 

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Peach Pro



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  posted on 1/22/2017 at 08:47 PM
Bhawk - just to be clear...the point being discussed/debated was whether or not political ideology impacts our lives, either for good or bad. Are you actually siding with BoyntonBrother in trying to claim that it does not impact our lives?

I don't care to debate the pros/cons of OC, or how we fix it, or what we do after Trump dismantles it, etc. The only reason that it came up was as an example of how political ideology impacts our lives.

The belief that the right to health care is a basic human right, or that money should be taken out of Joe's pocket to pay for Bill's health insurance, or that the government should be involved in regulating/mandating health care in any way whatsoever, etc....those basic presuppositions are part of a political ideology whether you care to admit it or not. Is there a fiscal aspect also. Sure, OK...but that doesn't negate the political ideology behind it.



[Edited on 1/23/2017 by Redfish7]

 

World Class Peach



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  posted on 1/22/2017 at 08:53 PM
quote:
How one thinks we should go about doing those things, providing those services, and how we should pay for them is largely determined by one's political ideology.


I'm pretty sure both Democrats and Republicans agreed that taxes would pay for those things.

quote:
And the primary point being debated was whether or not political ideology affects/impacts our lives. BoyntonBrother says "no". I say "yes". I used Obamacare as evidence that it does.


I was referring to how it evidently affects you emotionally based on your previous posts.

 

World Class Peach



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  posted on 1/22/2017 at 09:01 PM
quote:
But I guess it was OK for these same kids and young people to see the vulgar things that were displayed at the march...


Only you have said that. And what was so vulgar? Any links?

quote:
Not to mention that women who are pro-life were not allowed to partner with the march. So much for women being united, and all that diversity and inclusiveness BS...


What do you mean? My pro-life co-worker went to the D.C. one and had a great time. Where do you get your info?

 

Peach Pro



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  posted on 1/22/2017 at 09:02 PM
quote:
quote:
I disagree with Bhawk in one sense. Trolls know what they are doing. I just think you don't have the capacity to know any better.


Well...that's not fair, really. Redfish7 hasn't been posting in the WP long enough to make a conclusion like that. Benefit of the doubt still in clear play from my chair.


Haha...I missed this earlier. So...what kind of time frame are we looking at here?...just so I will know when my "benefit of the doubt" trial period runs out? And what metric are we using...calendar days or number of posts?

So far...I'm up to dishonest, troll, lazy and narrow minded.


 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 1/22/2017 at 09:24 PM
quote:
I disagree with Bhawk in one sense. Trolls know what they are doing. I just think you don't have the capacity to know any better.


Well...that's not fair, really. Redfish7 hasn't been posting in the WP long enough to make a conclusion like that. Benefit of the doubt still in clear play from my chair.


Haha...I missed this earlier. So...what kind of time frame are we looking at here?...just so I will know when my "benefit of the doubt" trial period runs out? And what metric are we using...calendar days or number of posts?

So far...I'm up to dishonest, troll, lazy and narrow minded.



Just wait, it gets a whole lot better.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 1/22/2017 at 09:26 PM
quote:
Bhawk - just to be clear...the point being discussed/debated was whether or not political ideology impacts our lives, either for good or bad. Are you actually siding with BoyntonBrother in trying to claim that it does not impact our lives?

I don't care to debate the pros/cons of OC, or how we fix it, or what we do after Trump dismantles it, etc. The only reason that it came up was as an example of how political ideology impacts our lives.

The belief that the right to health care is a basic human right, or that money should be taken out of Joe's pocket to pay for Bill's health insurance, or that the government should be involved in regulating/mandating health care in any way whatsoever, etc....those basic presuppositions are part of a political ideology whether you care to admit it or not. Is there a fiscal aspect also. Sure, OK...but that doesn't negate the political ideology behind it.



The original tenets of what became the Affordable Care Act was concepted by a conservative think tank and was on the platform of a Republican presidential candidate. So, the question is, whose ideology drove what?

If you are going to claim effects of political ideology, where does it apply in matters of consensus? In this case, ideology defined the opposition to an act of government because a tenet of that ideology dictates that the opponent, the enemy, is not allowed a "victory," regardless of if it a positive or negative for the citizenry.

The Republicans could have sold this exact same plan if they had framed it using the "everyone must pay something, no freeloaders" approach. Now, that's an example of using ideology.

It also looks like you tend to start with the extremes of an ideology. Why?

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 1/22/2017 at 09:27 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
I disagree with Bhawk in one sense. Trolls know what they are doing. I just think you don't have the capacity to know any better.


Well...that's not fair, really. Redfish7 hasn't been posting in the WP long enough to make a conclusion like that. Benefit of the doubt still in clear play from my chair.


Haha...I missed this earlier. So...what kind of time frame are we looking at here?...just so I will know when my "benefit of the doubt" trial period runs out? And what metric are we using...calendar days or number of posts?

So far...I'm up to dishonest, troll, lazy and narrow minded.




I thought BB was getting too close to insulting you and said so. How you interpret that is up to you.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 1/22/2017 at 09:28 PM
quote:
quote:
I disagree with Bhawk in one sense. Trolls know what they are doing. I just think you don't have the capacity to know any better.


Well...that's not fair, really. Redfish7 hasn't been posting in the WP long enough to make a conclusion like that. Benefit of the doubt still in clear play from my chair.


Haha...I missed this earlier. So...what kind of time frame are we looking at here?...just so I will know when my "benefit of the doubt" trial period runs out? And what metric are we using...calendar days or number of posts?

So far...I'm up to dishonest, troll, lazy and narrow minded.



Just wait, it gets a whole lot better.


Contempt is equally returned when given.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 1/22/2017 at 09:32 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
I disagree with Bhawk in one sense. Trolls know what they are doing. I just think you don't have the capacity to know any better.


Well...that's not fair, really. Redfish7 hasn't been posting in the WP long enough to make a conclusion like that. Benefit of the doubt still in clear play from my chair.


Haha...I missed this earlier. So...what kind of time frame are we looking at here?...just so I will know when my "benefit of the doubt" trial period runs out? And what metric are we using...calendar days or number of posts?

So far...I'm up to dishonest, troll, lazy and narrow minded.



Just wait, it gets a whole lot better.


Contempt is equally returned when given.


Equally? Contempt is "returned" whether it's given or not.

 

Peach Pro



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  posted on 1/22/2017 at 09:33 PM
quote:
quote:
But I guess it was OK for these same kids and young people to see the vulgar things that were displayed at the march...


Only you have said that. And what was so vulgar? Any links?

quote:
Not to mention that women who are pro-life were not allowed to partner with the march. So much for women being united, and all that diversity and inclusiveness BS...


What do you mean? My pro-life co-worker went to the D.C. one and had a great time. Where do you get your info?


It was reported on the news yesterday...lots of vulgar speech, lewd content and pictures on signs (some of it of a sexual nature), women dressed like vaginas, signs with "F**k Trump", people spitting on people, Madonna talking about blowing up the white house, etc...not a great environment for children or young people.

The exclusion of the pro-life group was also reported on the news. They interviewed someone from the pro-life group. Later I saw another interview with someone from one of the pro-choice groups, and the reporter was somewhat calling her out for it...you know, asking her why the pro-life women were excluded if it was supposed to be about all women, solidarity, etc.

Sorry...I don't recall specific names, or have links, etc...and I was switching around between CNN, Fox and others...so I don't even recall which news show/channel it was on. If you're really interested in the details, then just google it.

And I didn't mean that no pro-life women attended the march. Anyone who wanted to attend could go. Heck, there were even some Trump supporters there. Imagine that...women who voted for Trump.

But apparently there was a large, well organized and coordinated march that groups had to apply for if they wanted to partner with it. This pro-life group was initially accepted and had planned to be a part of that specific march. But then when the organizers of the march found out that they were a pro-life group, they changed their mind and told them they weren't welcome. Gotta love that inclusiveness.

 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 1/22/2017 at 09:36 PM
quote:
quote:
These threads all go so many different directions of off topic


What the heck does this have to do with the topic? If you want to talk about people posting off-topic, start another thread!


An observation that in a thread about impeaching Trump the discussion moved to ACA. Sorry such a comment has appeared to offend you so much.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 1/22/2017 at 09:42 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
I disagree with Bhawk in one sense. Trolls know what they are doing. I just think you don't have the capacity to know any better.


Well...that's not fair, really. Redfish7 hasn't been posting in the WP long enough to make a conclusion like that. Benefit of the doubt still in clear play from my chair.


Haha...I missed this earlier. So...what kind of time frame are we looking at here?...just so I will know when my "benefit of the doubt" trial period runs out? And what metric are we using...calendar days or number of posts?

So far...I'm up to dishonest, troll, lazy and narrow minded.



Just wait, it gets a whole lot better.


Contempt is equally returned when given.


Equally? Contempt is "returned" whether it's given or not.


Snowflake need a safe space?

Oh, that's right. You don't hate liberals and Democrats, don't wish to eradicate entire belief systems. Musta forgot. Uh-huh.

Lines are drawn. Everyone involved drew them. Here we are.

 

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Peach Pro



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  posted on 1/22/2017 at 09:48 PM

I'm pretty sure both Democrats and Republicans agreed that taxes would pay for those things.


And I suppose the belief/presupposition that involuntary taxation should be used to pay for those things is not a political ideology? Anarcho-capitalists, voluntaryists, some schools of libertarianism, and many others would heartily disagree.

So even your most basic assumption about how society should operate is based on a political ideology.


 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 1/22/2017 at 09:54 PM
quote:
So far...I'm up to dishonest, troll, lazy and narrow minded.

Just wait, it gets a whole lot better.


Contempt is equally returned when given.


Equally? Contempt is "returned" whether it's given or not.


Lines are drawn. Everyone involved drew them. Here we are.


That's right, and as of five minutes ago I decided to cross the line and post as a Liberal.

How's that sound, moron?

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 1/22/2017 at 10:02 PM
quote:

I'm pretty sure both Democrats and Republicans agreed that taxes would pay for those things.


And I suppose the belief/presupposition that involuntary taxation should be used to pay for those things is not a political ideology? Anarcho-capitalists, voluntaryists, some schools of libertarianism, and many others would heartily disagree.

So even your most basic assumption about how society should operate is based on a political ideology.




quote:
Article I, Section 8, Clause 1: The Congress shall have Power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States


Which ideology is that, label-wise, do you think? What should we call it?

 

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Peach Pro



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  posted on 1/22/2017 at 10:11 PM
quote:
quote:
Bhawk - just to be clear...the point being discussed/debated was whether or not political ideology impacts our lives, either for good or bad. Are you actually siding with BoyntonBrother in trying to claim that it does not impact our lives?

I don't care to debate the pros/cons of OC, or how we fix it, or what we do after Trump dismantles it, etc. The only reason that it came up was as an example of how political ideology impacts our lives.

The belief that the right to health care is a basic human right, or that money should be taken out of Joe's pocket to pay for Bill's health insurance, or that the government should be involved in regulating/mandating health care in any way whatsoever, etc....those basic presuppositions are part of a political ideology whether you care to admit it or not. Is there a fiscal aspect also. Sure, OK...but that doesn't negate the political ideology behind it.



The original tenets of what became the Affordable Care Act was concepted by a conservative think tank and was on the platform of a Republican presidential candidate. So, the question is, whose ideology drove what?

If you are going to claim effects of political ideology, where does it apply in matters of consensus? In this case, ideology defined the opposition to an act of government because a tenet of that ideology dictates that the opponent, the enemy, is not allowed a "victory," regardless of if it a positive or negative for the citizenry.

The Republicans could have sold this exact same plan if they had framed it using the "everyone must pay something, no freeloaders" approach. Now, that's an example of using ideology.

It also looks like you tend to start with the extremes of an ideology. Why?


Yep, if I recall correctly…I believe Mitt Romney came up with the model/prototype for what later became the ACA. Obama stole it from Mitt, and we have Republicans and Democrats both to blame for it.

Again…the debate was simply over whether or not political ideology impacts our lives. It wasn’t about whose political ideology impacts our lives. Both liberal/conservative ideology have impacts…some negative and some positive. In fact, I even used US foreign policy/the Bush Doctrine as another example, and showed how that particular ideology resulted in the unnecessary deaths/displacement of hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

By the way, I know you will find this hard to believe (due to the conclusions that you have drawn about me), but if I had been active on this forum during the Bush regime, I would have been accused of being a liberal…trust me on that…I was just as critical of Bush, probably more so, as I am of Obama. Bush was a real tool also.

What do you mean that I start with the extremes of an ideology?

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 1/22/2017 at 10:17 PM
quote:
quote:
So far...I'm up to dishonest, troll, lazy and narrow minded.

Just wait, it gets a whole lot better.


Contempt is equally returned when given.


Equally? Contempt is "returned" whether it's given or not.


Lines are drawn. Everyone involved drew them. Here we are.


That's right, and as of five minutes ago I decided to cross the line and post as a Liberal.

How's that sound, moron?


Yes, only liberals insult people. Yawn. The alloak manifesto of conservative perfection. Well established.

 

____________________
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