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Author: Subject: Obama to use executive power to close gun show loophole

True Peach





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  posted on 12/4/2015 at 08:18 PM
http://www.latimes.com/nation/politics/la-na-obama-gun-order-20151203-story .html
 
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World Class Peach



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  posted on 12/4/2015 at 08:26 PM
Again, I'm going to ask exactly what "loophole" is being discussed. The sale of firearms between two adults is legal in, as far as I know, all 50 states. It doesn't matter if it's at a gun show or in the persons' back yard.

Why, oh why, hasn't the discussion about what to do with criminals that use a firearm in a criminal act been discussed as much as how to keep non-criminals from legally owning a firearm.

Let's get a discussion going on that.

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 12/4/2015 at 10:02 PM
Just another myth that gun control advocates love to believe, but refuse to accept does not exist.

Add that to the "assault weapon" descriptor every time a black rifle is used.

Then there's these morons...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIQ_SDab9_I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJmFEv6BHM0

No wonder they can't focus on where the real problems are - they don't remotely understand subject they're talking about and hoping to regulate. Just like Obamacare, they'll vote for anything they're told to without any knowledge of the subject.

 

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True Peach



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  posted on 12/5/2015 at 09:21 AM
How does expanded background checks hurt either one of YOU?. unless you are a wife beater, mentally unstable with violent tendencies, ex-felon, terrorist??. so do you thing these types of people should be able to buy a gun legally?.

[Edited on 12/5/2015 by pops42]

 

Peach Master



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  posted on 12/5/2015 at 09:58 AM
quote:
Again, I'm going to ask exactly what "loophole" is being discussed. .


This particular loophole is the waiting period.

I understand both sides. I don't agree with both sides, but I do question the definition of "arms." Obviously, the framers mean pistols and whatever relic rifle was needed in 1776 to bring to a militia. So, where is the line drawn at what type of arms? Firearms? Knives? Hand grenades? Explosives? Tanks? Chemicals? That issue has NEVER been addressed by SCOTUS.

Legal and security scholars somewhere in the US should figure out how to prevent "arms" from getting into the hands of terrorists - domestic and foreign.

One of the SB shooters was a US citizen and also a member of ISIS. So he was both domestic and foreign. We have to solve this problem. ISIS and its incarnations are not going away.


 

Universal Peach



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  posted on 12/5/2015 at 12:58 PM
Just how many guns used in mass shootings were obtained via the so-called gun show loophole?

Well, Obama always tries to do something to make it appear he is doing something.

The gun show loophole (unspecified but hey, why be specific) will have no effect on the criminals who commit the vast majority of gun crimes.

Waiting period? Does anyone think that the gang-member, out to kill someone who walked down the street in "their territory" is going to fill out the paperwork and then go home and watch "Cops" waiting for their permit?

A criminal, gang-member or whatever doesn’t go to a gun show to get a weapon. They go to a dealer in their ‘hood. Until law enforcement and the prosecutors are allowed to do their job no Obama order is going to do anything.

Until we have a president who will actually do their job nothing is going to change.

 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 12/5/2015 at 01:22 PM
quote:


There has been yet another mass shooting, something that now seems to occur on a monthly basis. Every time another tragedy like this occurs, gun advocates make the same arguments about why we can't possibly do anything to restrict the weaponization of our culture. Here's a guide to what they'll be saying in the coming days:



1. Now isn't the time to talk about guns.

We're going to hear this over and over, and not just from gun advocates; Jay Carneysaid it to White House reporters today. But if we're not going to talk about it now, when are we going to talk about it? After Sandy hit the East Coast, no one said, "Now isn't the time to talk about disaster preparedness; best leave that until it doesn't seem so urgent." When there's a terrorist attack, no one says, "Now isn't the time to talk about terrorism." Now is exactly the time.

2. Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

Maybe, but people with guns kill many, many more people than they would if they didn't have guns, and guns designed to kill as many people as possible. We don't know if the murderer in Newtown was suffering from a suicidal depression, but many mass shooters in the past were. And guess what? People suffer from suicidal depression everywhere in the world. People get angry and upset everywhere in the world. But there aren't mass shootings every few weeks in England or Costa Rica or Japan, and the reason is that people in those places who have these impulses don't have an easy way to access lethal weapons and unlimited ammunition. But if you want to kill large numbers of people and you happen to be an American, you'll find it easy to do.

3. If only everybody around was armed, an ordinary civilian could take out a mass killer before he got too far.

If that were true, then how come it never happens? The truth is that in a chaotic situation, even highly trained police officers often kill bystanders. The idea that some accountant who spent a few hours at the range would suddenly turn into Jason Bourne and take out the killer without doing more harm than good has no basis in reality.

4. We don't need more laws, we just need to enforce the laws we have.

The people who say this are the same ones who fight to make sure that existing laws are as weak and ineffectual as possible. Our current gun laws are riddled with loopholes and allow people to amass enormous arsenals of military-style weapons with virtually no restrictions.

5. Criminals will always find a way to get guns no matter what measures we take, so what's the point?

The question isn't whether we could snap our fingers and make every gun disappear. It's whether we can make it harder for criminals to get guns, and harder for an unbalanced person with murderous intent to kill so many people. The goal is to reduce violence as much as possible. There's no other problem for which we'd say if we can't solve it completely and forever we shouldn't even try.

6. The Constitution says I have a right to own guns.

Yes it does, but for some reason gun advocates think that the right to bear arms is the only constitutional right that is virtually without limit. You have the right to practice your religion, but not if your religion involves human sacrifice. You have the right to free speech, but you can still be prosecuted for incitement or conspiracy, and you can be sued for libel. Every right is subject to limitation when it begins to threaten others, and the Supreme Court has affirmed that even though there is an individual right to gun ownership, the government can put reasonable restrictions on that right.


And we all know that if this shooter turns out to have a Muslim name, plenty of Americans, including plenty of gun owners, will be more than happy to give up all kinds of rights in the name of fighting terrorism. Have the government read my email? Have my cell phone company turn over my call records? Check which books I'm taking out of the library? Make me take my shoes off before getting on a plane, just because some idiot tried to blow up his sneakers? Sure, do what you've got to do. But don't make it harder to buy thousands of rounds of ammunition, because if we couldn't do that we'd no longer be free.

7. Widespread gun ownership is a guarantee against tyranny.

If that had anything to do with contemporary life, then mature democracies would be constantly overthrown by despots. But they aren't. We shouldn't write laws based on the fantasies of conspiracy theorists.

8. Guns are a part of American culture.

Indeed they are, but so are a lot of things, and that tells us nothing about whether they're good or bad and how we want to treat them going forward. Slavery was a part of American culture for a couple of hundred years, but eventually we decided it had to go.

9. The American people don't want more gun control.

The truth is that when public opinion polls have asked Americans about specific measures, the public is in favor of a much more restrictive gun regime than we have now. Significant majorities would like to see the assault weapons ban reinstated, mandatory licensing and training for all gun owners, significant waiting periods for purchases, and host of other restrictions (there are more details here). In many cases, gun owners themselves support more restrictions than we currently have.

10. Having movie theaters and schools full of kids periodically shot up is just a price we should be willing to pay if it means I get to play with guns and pretend I'm Wyatt Earp.

OK, that's actually an argument gun advocates don't make. But it's the truth that lies beneath all their other arguments. All that we suffer because of the proliferation of guns—these horrifying tragedies, the 30,000 Americans who are killed every year with guns—for gun advocates, it's unfortunate, but it's a price they're willing to pay. If only they'd have the guts to say it.

Paul Waldman is the Prospect's daily blogger and senior writer. He also blogs for the Plum Line at the Washington Post, and is the author of Being Right is Not Enough: What Progressives Must Learn From Conservative Success.


http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/10-most-popular-and-wrong-argumen ts-gun-advocates-make

 

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Universal Peach



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  posted on 12/5/2015 at 01:29 PM
You’ll notice, or not, that Paul Waldman offers no solutions. He simply writes the usual left-wing talking points (crap) that attacks law-abiding citizens.

Do you have anything to offer other than copying and pasting liberal rhetoric?

What is your solution Billy?

 

True Peach



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  posted on 12/5/2015 at 05:06 PM
quote:
Just how many guns used in mass shootings were obtained via the so-called gun show loophole?

Well, Obama always tries to do something to make it appear he is doing something.

The gun show loophole (unspecified but hey, why be specific) will have no effect on the criminals who commit the vast majority of gun crimes.

Waiting period? Does anyone think that the gang-member, out to kill someone who walked down the street in "their territory" is going to fill out the paperwork and then go home and watch "Cops" waiting for their permit?

A criminal, gang-member or whatever doesn’t go to a gun show to get a weapon. They go to a dealer in their ‘hood. Until law enforcement and the prosecutors are allowed to do their job no Obama order is going to do anything.

Until we have a president who will actually do their job nothing is going to change.

Yet again you show us that YOU have an intellect [slightly below] a rhesus monkey if congress won't/can't draft a bill [mostly due to republicans paid off by the gun lobby] how then is the president going to sign it into law????

 

Universal Peach



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  posted on 12/5/2015 at 05:27 PM
Well I see pops hasn't a clue or offers anything to begin to solve the gun violence problem.

Does anyone out there actually have a solution?

 

True Peach



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  posted on 12/5/2015 at 05:32 PM
quote:
Well I see pops hasn't a clue or offers anything to begin to solve the gun violence problem.

Does anyone out there actually have a solution?

more words of wisdom from bubbles the chimp!

 

Peach Master



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  posted on 12/5/2015 at 05:39 PM
quote:
Well I see pops hasn't a clue or offers anything to begin to solve the gun violence problem.
Does anyone out there actually have a solution?


One thing that I'm absolutely certain does not contribute to a solution is name-calling and pointing fingers.

 

World Class Peach



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  posted on 12/5/2015 at 05:50 PM
quote:
How does expanded background checks hurt either one of YOU?. unless you are a wife beater, mentally unstable with violent tendencies, ex-felon, terrorist??. so do you thing these types of people should be able to buy a gun legally?.

[Edited on 12/5/2015 by pops42]


Is this your definition of the "gunshow loophole"?

 

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World Class Peach



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  posted on 12/5/2015 at 07:03 PM
no easy solutions.
gun violence is multifactorial, and solutions will have to come from many different approaches. These would include better treatment of mental health, common sense gun legislation, among other things.

I have no problem with law abiding citizens owning guns. I am NOT looking to take your guns away.
I realize that if you are a criminal and want a gun bad enough, you will be able to get it, no matter what the law says.
It shouldn't be easy, though
Felons, criminals, etc should not be able to buy a gun legally - anywhere, a store, a gun show, private sale, etc
People on the TSA no fly list should not be able to buy a gun legally, anywhere
Finally, no one has ever explained to me why a private citizen should be able to purchase a "military" weapon (I agree that the definition may be arbitrary). To me, an automatic weapon is essentially a weapon of mass destruction, as we have seen too many times.
More than one mass shooter has done his damage wearing full body armor

I'm sorry if trying to keep guns out of the hands of criminals inconveniences the law abiding citizens who want to buy a gun without a background check. Like many things in life, the "bad apples" ruin it for the other ones. I would love to be able to get on a plane without taking off my shoes, go through a scanner, etc, but I understand the compromise. I would love not to have to have an alarm system in my house. I could go on, but we are all inconvenienced because of criminals. That's how life is.

 

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World Class Peach



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  posted on 12/5/2015 at 08:12 PM
quote:
no easy solutions.
gun violence is multifactorial, and solutions will have to come from many different approaches. These would include better treatment of mental health, common sense gun legislation, among other things.

I have no problem with law abiding citizens owning guns. I am NOT looking to take your guns away.
I realize that if you are a criminal and want a gun bad enough, you will be able to get it, no matter what the law says.
It shouldn't be easy, though
Felons, criminals, etc should not be able to buy a gun legally - anywhere, a store, a gun show, private sale, etc
People on the TSA no fly list should not be able to buy a gun legally, anywhere
Finally, no one has ever explained to me why a private citizen should be able to purchase a "military" weapon (I agree that the definition may be arbitrary). To me, an automatic weapon is essentially a weapon of mass destruction, as we have seen too many times.
More than one mass shooter has done his damage wearing full body armor

I'm sorry if trying to keep guns out of the hands of criminals inconveniences the law abiding citizens who want to buy a gun without a background check. Like many things in life, the "bad apples" ruin it for the other ones. I would love to be able to get on a plane without taking off my shoes, go through a scanner, etc, but I understand the compromise. I would love not to have to have an alarm system in my house. I could go on, but we are all inconvenienced because of criminals. That's how life is.


Let's go at this one topic at a time:

1) There are people on the no fly list that do not belong on it.
2) Felons, criminals, mentally unstable individuals cannot legally purchase firearms. Don't know where you got the idea that they can.
3) Go to https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics and see who is eligible to purchase firearms, and who isn't.
4) Go to https://www.atf.gov/file/61446/download and read the ATF Form 4473. Any incorrect or yes answers will stop the sale of the firearm. Also read the definitions.

The answer to criminals using firearms in the commission of a crime is to attach drastic sentencing for the use of the firearm to be served BEFORE you serve the sentence for the actual crime. Say 20 years for armed robbery-add 10 years to be served before the-20 the criminal had been sentenced for, no parole granted until the criminal has served the needed part of the sentence, no time served for the add-on goes toward parole or earl release.
Make the criminals pay for their behavior, not those of us who follow the laws.

 

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True Peach



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  posted on 12/5/2015 at 09:05 PM
quote:
quote:
no easy solutions.
gun violence is multifactorial, and solutions will have to come from many different approaches. These would include better treatment of mental health, common sense gun legislation, among other things.

I have no problem with law abiding citizens owning guns. I am NOT looking to take your guns away.
I realize that if you are a criminal and want a gun bad enough, you will be able to get it, no matter what the law says.
It shouldn't be easy, though
Felons, criminals, etc should not be able to buy a gun legally - anywhere, a store, a gun show, private sale, etc
People on the TSA no fly list should not be able to buy a gun legally, anywhere
Finally, no one has ever explained to me why a private citizen should be able to purchase a "military" weapon (I agree that the definition may be arbitrary). To me, an automatic weapon is essentially a weapon of mass destruction, as we have seen too many times.
More than one mass shooter has done his damage wearing full body armor

I'm sorry if trying to keep guns out of the hands of criminals inconveniences the law abiding citizens who want to buy a gun without a background check. Like many things in life, the "bad apples" ruin it for the other ones. I would love to be able to get on a plane without taking off my shoes, go through a scanner, etc, but I understand the compromise. I would love not to have to have an alarm system in my house. I could go on, but we are all inconvenienced because of criminals. That's how life is.


Let's go at this one topic at a time:

1) There are people on the no fly list that do not belong on it.
2) Felons, criminals, mentally unstable individuals cannot legally purchase firearms. Don't know where you got the idea that they can.
3) Go to https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics and see who is eligible to purchase firearms, and who isn't.
4) Go to https://www.atf.gov/file/61446/download and read the ATF Form 4473. Any incorrect or yes answers will stop the sale of the firearm. Also read the definitions.

The answer to criminals using firearms in the commission of a crime is to attach drastic sentencing for the use of the firearm to be served BEFORE you serve the sentence for the actual crime. Say 20 years for armed robbery-add 10 years to be served before the-20 the criminal had been sentenced for, no parole granted until the criminal has served the needed part of the sentence, no time served for the add-on goes toward parole or earl release.
Make the criminals pay for their behavior, not those of us who follow the laws.
felons, mentally unstable, and extremist terrorist types CAN buy a gun at gun shows because of the loophole.

 

World Class Peach



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  posted on 12/5/2015 at 09:32 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
no easy solutions.
gun violence is multifactorial, and solutions will have to come from many different approaches. These would include better treatment of mental health, common sense gun legislation, among other things.

I have no problem with law abiding citizens owning guns. I am NOT looking to take your guns away.
I realize that if you are a criminal and want a gun bad enough, you will be able to get it, no matter what the law says.
It shouldn't be easy, though
Felons, criminals, etc should not be able to buy a gun legally - anywhere, a store, a gun show, private sale, etc
People on the TSA no fly list should not be able to buy a gun legally, anywhere
Finally, no one has ever explained to me why a private citizen should be able to purchase a "military" weapon (I agree that the definition may be arbitrary). To me, an automatic weapon is essentially a weapon of mass destruction, as we have seen too many times.
More than one mass shooter has done his damage wearing full body armor

I'm sorry if trying to keep guns out of the hands of criminals inconveniences the law abiding citizens who want to buy a gun without a background check. Like many things in life, the "bad apples" ruin it for the other ones. I would love to be able to get on a plane without taking off my shoes, go through a scanner, etc, but I understand the compromise. I would love not to have to have an alarm system in my house. I could go on, but we are all inconvenienced because of criminals. That's how life is.


Let's go at this one topic at a time:

1) There are people on the no fly list that do not belong on it.
2) Felons, criminals, mentally unstable individuals cannot legally purchase firearms. Don't know where you got the idea that they can.
3) Go to https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics and see who is eligible to purchase firearms, and who isn't.
4) Go to https://www.atf.gov/file/61446/download and read the ATF Form 4473. Any incorrect or yes answers will stop the sale of the firearm. Also read the definitions.

The answer to criminals using firearms in the commission of a crime is to attach drastic sentencing for the use of the firearm to be served BEFORE you serve the sentence for the actual crime. Say 20 years for armed robbery-add 10 years to be served before the-20 the criminal had been sentenced for, no parole granted until the criminal has served the needed part of the sentence, no time served for the add-on goes toward parole or earl release.
Make the criminals pay for their behavior, not those of us who follow the laws.
felons, mentally unstable, and extremist terrorist types CAN buy a gun at gun shows because of the loophole.


IF THERE WAS A LOOPHOLE, I put that in caps so you wouldn't miss it, but since there isn't a loophole it's impossible.
Besides, you have been making a point that they were buying them legally.

If I own a firearm and wanted to sell it, I can, but I would not sell one to someone I felt was not right or seemed slightly suspicious. Since I bought the firearm and filled out the Form 4473 originally, that firearm would be traced back to me if used in a crime. Would you sell a firearm to someone who gave you a case of the "willies"?
Also, you still haven't told me what the "gun show loophole" is.

 

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World Class Peach



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  posted on 12/5/2015 at 09:39 PM
One thing I forgot to add.
People who have a criminal background run the risk of being arrested at a gun show since they are not allowed to even be in the same area as firearms. Walking in the building alone could be cause for arrest and loss of probation.
Picking up a firearm and handling it could get them charged with possession of a firearm.

One last thing: Even if you aren't a dealer, you can run a background check by calling the local police and giving them the purchasers' license number.

 

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  posted on 12/5/2015 at 09:44 PM
It's on Wikipedia:

"Gun show loophole" is a political term in the United States referring to sales of firearms by private sellers, including those done at gun shows, dubbed the "secondary market".[1] The term refers to a perceived gap in the law regarding the sale or transfer of firearms between private citizens.[2] As of September 2015, 18 states and Washington, D.C. require background checks for some or all private firearm sales.[3]

Under federal law, private-party sellers are not required to perform background checks on buyers, record the sale, or ask for identification. Federal law prohibits private individuals from selling a firearm to a resident of another state, or anyone they have reason to believe is prohibited from owning a firearm.[4] This requirement is in contrast to sales by gun stores and other Federal Firearms License (FFL) holders who are required to record all sales and perform background checks on almost all buyers, regardless of the venue of sale.

A late 20th century report by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) commissioned by then-president Bill Clinton stated that transactions and sales of firearms by private U.S. citizens contribute to illegal activities. Since the mid-1990s, gun control advocates have voiced concern over the perceived loophole in legislation, and campaigned to require background checks and recordkeeping for all gun sales. Contrarily, gun rights advocates have stated the laws function as intended, and no loophole exists. They have contended that required background checks and recordkeeping for private sales of firearms endanger Second Amendment rights, and exceed the government’s authority, regardless of the venue.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_show_loophole

 

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World Class Peach



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  posted on 12/5/2015 at 10:32 PM
quote:
One thing I forgot to add.
People who have a criminal background run the risk of being arrested at a gun show since they are not allowed to even be in the same area as firearms. Walking in the building alone could be cause for arrest and loss of probation.
Picking up a firearm and handling it could get them charged with possession of a firearm.

One last thing: Even if you aren't a dealer, you can run a background check by calling the local police and giving them the purchasers' license number.


right
but who or what will prevent a criminal from going to a show. Do you know what a criminal looks like? I don't

you can run a background check, but you don't have to. How often are checks run by private sellers?

and the need for assault / military type weapons?

 

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Universal Peach



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  posted on 12/5/2015 at 11:17 PM
None of this matters if the government does not enforce the law(s) or fix the functionality of the background check system.


 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 12/6/2015 at 12:39 AM
How about licensing guns just like we license cars? Issuing titles for guns so ownership can be tracked seems like a good idea to me. Then enforce harsh sentences on folks caught with unlicensed weapons.

I've stated on this forum many times that I believe we need a massive war against illegal weapons. I'm all for para military operations designed to get illegal guns out of the hands of gangs and off the streets of our cities.

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 12/6/2015 at 12:42 AM
quote:
1) There are people on the no fly list that do not belong on it.


I understand your point but aren't there more people on the list that should be on it than people who shouldn't be? Wouldn't it be better to get people who don't belong on the watch list off while keeping everyone on the watch list from being able to buy weapons?

 

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  posted on 12/6/2015 at 08:53 AM
Regardless of your opinion of gun laws, here is a pretty good read as to why Obama's push to bar people on the no fly list from buying guns sure looks like a cynical ploy to abrogate 5th and 14th amendment due process protections which has nothing to do with gun control or the 2nd amendment:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/05/no-fly-list-terrorism- gun-control-democrats-debate-republicans?CMP=twt_gu

 

Universal Peach



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  posted on 12/6/2015 at 02:35 PM
quote:
quote:
1) There are people on the no fly list that do not belong on it.


I understand your point but aren't there more people on the list that should be on it than people who shouldn't be? Wouldn't it be better to get people who don't belong on the watch list off while keeping everyone on the watch list from being able to buy weapons?

_________________________________________________________________________

Who exactly should be scrubbing the no-fly list?
The government? Why not, they have done such a good job creating the list!

The more power given to the Government the more rights the people lose.

 
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