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Author: Subject: The 2nd Amendment vs. the 8th Amendment

Maximum Peach





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  posted on 2/26/2015 at 03:59 PM
My perception is that many of the people who accept the 2nd Amendment as gospel often support the use of torture in interrogations.

The 8th Amendment reads:

"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."

Why does the 8th Amendment get so little support among those carry the banner for the 2nd Amendment?

Please note: My perception could be altered.

 

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Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 2/26/2015 at 04:02 PM
It could be simply because the 2nd Amendment has a direct effect on a large portion of the people while the 8th Amendment affects very few, if any, citizens.
 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 2/26/2015 at 04:23 PM
quote:
It could be simply because the 2nd Amendment has a direct effect on a large portion of the people while the 8th Amendment affects very few, if any, citizens.


I'd argue that processes in our justice system effect every American. Sure, a lot of people own guns. But everybody owns there freedom. If torture can be used to get a confession than aren't we all at risk of losing our freedom?

 

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Universal Peach



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  posted on 2/26/2015 at 04:40 PM
quote:
quote:
It could be simply because the 2nd Amendment has a direct effect on a large portion of the people while the 8th Amendment affects very few, if any, citizens.


I'd argue that processes in our justice system effect every American. Sure, a lot of people own guns. But everybody owns there freedom. If torture can be used to get a confession than aren't we all at risk of losing our freedom?


The people subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques are not American citizens and therefore not entitled to any constitutional right.

F’k ‘em. If they choose to kill Americans and anyone else that doesn’t agree with their perversion of Islam they shall get what is coming to them.

 

Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 2/26/2015 at 04:45 PM
quote:
quote:
It could be simply because the 2nd Amendment has a direct effect on a large portion of the people while the 8th Amendment affects very few, if any, citizens.


I'd argue that processes in our justice system effect every American. Sure, a lot of people own guns. But everybody owns there freedom. If torture can be used to get a confession than aren't we all at risk of losing our freedom?


I meant that the eighth does not have a direct effect on peoples everyday lives. Sure, it is something folks should care about but most folks don't care much about what happens outside their own little world.

 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 2/26/2015 at 05:18 PM
I agree keller.

 

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Universal Peach



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  posted on 2/26/2015 at 05:48 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
It could be simply because the 2nd Amendment has a direct effect on a large portion of the people while the 8th Amendment affects very few, if any, citizens.


I'd argue that processes in our justice system effect every American. Sure, a lot of people own guns. But everybody owns there freedom. If torture can be used to get a confession than aren't we all at risk of losing our freedom?


I meant that the eighth does not have a direct effect on peoples everyday lives. Sure, it is something folks should care about but most folks don't care much about what happens outside their own little world.

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Untill the terrorists blow up their town. Then it is OMG - why didn't "the government" know what was going on?



 

True Peach



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  posted on 2/26/2015 at 05:50 PM
quote:
The people subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques are not American citizens and therefore not entitled to any constitutional right.

F’k ‘em. If they choose to kill Americans and anyone else that doesn’t agree with their perversion of Islam they shall get what is coming to them.


This a completely unAmerican point of view. <shocker>

 

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Extreme Peach



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  posted on 2/26/2015 at 06:11 PM
quote:
quote:
It could be simply because the 2nd Amendment has a direct effect on a large portion of the people while the 8th Amendment affects very few, if any, citizens.


I'd argue that processes in our justice system effect every American. Sure, a lot of people own guns. But everybody owns there freedom. If torture can be used to get a confession than aren't we all at risk of losing our freedom?


We lost control of our freedoms here in the US the minute the Patriot Act was passed. there is no going back.

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 2/26/2015 at 06:31 PM
There have been recent news reports about "Black Sites" in the US. It seems Chicago has an off books detainee center where Americans are deprived of their rights.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/24/chicago-police-detain-americ ans-black-site

It is hard to endorse torture and not expect it to have an impact at home.

[Edited on 2/26/2015 by BillyBlastoff]

 

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Universal Peach



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  posted on 2/26/2015 at 07:08 PM
quote:
There have been recent news reports about "Black Sites" in the US. It seems Chicago has an off books detainee center where Americans are deprived of their rights.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/24/chicago-police-detain-americ ans-black-site

It is hard to endorse torture and not expect it to have an impact at home.

[Edited on 2/26/2015 by BillyBlastoff]

______________________________________________________________

Are you referring to the torture site in obama's Chicago known as "The South Side"?

 

World Class Peach



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  posted on 2/26/2015 at 10:09 PM
quote:
My perception is that many of the people who accept the 2nd Amendment as gospel often support the use of torture in interrogations.

The 8th Amendment reads:

"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."

Why does the 8th Amendment get so little support among those carry the banner for the 2nd Amendment?

Please note: My perception could be altered.



The 8th has gotten a lot of exposure since it was written.

Did you know that in the 18th century branding with a hot iron the letter of the crime committed was done to the palm of the right hand (now you know why you are asked to raise your right hand to take an oath, it's to see if you've committed any crimes). Of course we've all heard of the A, but do you know what the brands B, F, M, R, and T stand for?
Have you seen movies where the guy is placed in the stocks? Depending on the crime you might have just been locked down between the two parts, or you may have been nailed to the stocks through your ears, which usually meant cutting off the part of the ear the peg went through.
Capitol punishment could be meted if you did as little as steal a silk handkerchief.
Horse thief, hung or shot. Why don't we hang those who steal cars today?

Cruel and unusual punishment today could be categorized, and has been, jailing someone and not letting them watch their cartoons on Saturday morning.

The trial of my sister-in-laws murderers is about to take place and I'd love to see them put to death in the same manner they used to kill her. If they thought it wasn't cruel and unusual to do it to her, why should it be cruel and unusual to use the same method?

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 2/27/2015 at 02:06 PM
quote:
quote:
My perception is that many of the people who accept the 2nd Amendment as gospel often support the use of torture in interrogations.

The 8th Amendment reads:

"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."

Why does the 8th Amendment get so little support among those carry the banner for the 2nd Amendment?

Please note: My perception could be altered.



The 8th has gotten a lot of exposure since it was written.

Did you know that in the 18th century branding with a hot iron the letter of the crime committed was done to the palm of the right hand (now you know why you are asked to raise your right hand to take an oath, it's to see if you've committed any crimes). Of course we've all heard of the A, but do you know what the brands B, F, M, R, and T stand for?
Have you seen movies where the guy is placed in the stocks? Depending on the crime you might have just been locked down between the two parts, or you may have been nailed to the stocks through your ears, which usually meant cutting off the part of the ear the peg went through.
Capitol punishment could be meted if you did as little as steal a silk handkerchief.
Horse thief, hung or shot. Why don't we hang those who steal cars today?

Cruel and unusual punishment today could be categorized, and has been, jailing someone and not letting them watch their cartoons on Saturday morning.

The trial of my sister-in-laws murderers is about to take place and I'd love to see them put to death in the same manner they used to kill her. If they thought it wasn't cruel and unusual to do it to her, why should it be cruel and unusual to use the same method?


Yes you are correct. There has been a ton of 8th amendment jurisprudence. It is simply hyperbole to make the statement that Americans care about the 2d but not the 8th amendment. All the amendments are operative. As for so-called "enhanced interrogation technques" well first, the people involved are illegal combatants and not entitled to constitutional protections at all. This is why they are held without trial for one thing. Second, not everybody agrees on the definition of cruel and unusual. Third and most important, these tecniques, like all interrogation techniqies whether waterboarding or just using sleep deprivation or hot lights, are designed to garner information, not to punish.

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 2/27/2015 at 02:32 PM
quote:
Yes you are correct. There has been a ton of 8th amendment jurisprudence. It is simply hyperbole to make the statement that Americans care about the 2d but not the 8th amendment. All the amendments are operative. As for so-called "enhanced interrogation technques" well first, the people involved are illegal combatants and not entitled to constitutional protections at all. This is why they are held without trial for one thing. Second, not everybody agrees on the definition of cruel and unusual. Third and most important, these tecniques, like all interrogation techniqies whether waterboarding or just using sleep deprivation or hot lights, are designed to garner information, not to punish.


Well the black site in Chicago is allegedly using torture against Americans. I don't know where you see the hyperbole - I didn't say "care more". I said many Americans who accept the 2nd amendment as gospel support torture.

And there you go - absolutely proving my hypothesis.

"so-called "enhanced interrogation technques"" So called? Wow. Didn't we convict Japanese that used water boarding during WWII for war crimes?

It is clear you cannot see the disconnect in your thinking.

I find the same disconnect in people opposed to abortion yet in support of capital punishment.

Fascinating.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 2/28/2015 at 01:38 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
It could be simply because the 2nd Amendment has a direct effect on a large portion of the people while the 8th Amendment affects very few, if any, citizens.


I'd argue that processes in our justice system effect every American. Sure, a lot of people own guns. But everybody owns there freedom. If torture can be used to get a confession than aren't we all at risk of losing our freedom?


The people subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques are not American citizens and therefore not entitled to any constitutional right.

F’k ‘em. If they choose to kill Americans and anyone else that doesn’t agree with their perversion of Islam they shall get what is coming to them.




Oh so only American citizens are entitled to human rights.

What rights did the Arabs who were just living in the post Soviet era Afghan and Pakistani lands have? None because they were not Americans?

Even our Tribunals who found that they had not done anything and should be released was not enough, they still sit there in Gitmo. WHY? We are running it, but we don't even abide by the decisions of the courts we created.

Why do you suppose Americans are being killed? Could it be because WE have invaded the lands of other countries and are shooting at the people who live there? Oh but that's okay, because we are Americans, we can go anywhere, bomb anybody and say that we are right.

IRAQ did nothing to us, we had no reason killing more than a million of their people did we? What is the result, applause for getting rid of Saddam, and creation of ISIS, who will not stop fighting us after what they saw us do in their own land, in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Mullah Omar NEVER gave Osama the land he lived on in Afghanistan, he asked for proof of his guilt in 9/11, NONE was ever presented to him. Why Not? Would have been a simple matter, Omar even said, if give us the proof, we will turn him over. He did not agree with or condone the WTC attacks, yet we stayed and are still there in that country murdering people who had NOTHING to do with the WTC attacks.

If we wanted to protect America, we should stop going to other countries, shooting at their people, just shore up our borders and leave other counties to manage their own, after all that's what we expect from them isn't it?

[Edited on 2/28/2015 by gina]

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 2/28/2015 at 02:20 PM
quote:
The people subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques are not American citizens and therefore not entitled to any constitutional right.

Like Timothy McVeigh...

Now Gina, you know god only loves Amurica and Amuricuns!

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/1/2015 at 10:29 AM
Yeah I know, and he's very partial to good ole boys with their red neck, white socks and blue ribbon beer. Now, nobody should be offended with that, after all I can think of a soulful singer, who plays a B-3 whose in that category.

 

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World Class Peach



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  posted on 3/1/2015 at 09:21 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
It could be simply because the 2nd Amendment has a direct effect on a large portion of the people while the 8th Amendment affects very few, if any, citizens.


I'd argue that processes in our justice system effect every American. Sure, a lot of people own guns. But everybody owns there freedom. If torture can be used to get a confession than aren't we all at risk of losing our freedom?


The people subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques are not American citizens and therefore not entitled to any constitutional right.

F’k ‘em. If they choose to kill Americans and anyone else that doesn’t agree with their perversion of Islam they shall get what is coming to them.




Oh so only American citizens are entitled to human rights.

What rights did the Arabs who were just living in the post Soviet era Afghan and Pakistani lands have? None because they were not Americans?

Even our Tribunals who found that they had not done anything and should be released was not enough, they still sit there in Gitmo. WHY? We are running it, but we don't even abide by the decisions of the courts we created.

Why do you suppose Americans are being killed? Could it be because WE have invaded the lands of other countries and are shooting at the people who live there? Oh but that's okay, because we are Americans, we can go anywhere, bomb anybody and say that we are right.

IRAQ did nothing to us, we had no reason killing more than a million of their people did we? What is the result, applause for getting rid of Saddam, and creation of ISIS, who will not stop fighting us after what they saw us do in their own land, in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Mullah Omar NEVER gave Osama the land he lived on in Afghanistan, he asked for proof of his guilt in 9/11, NONE was ever presented to him. Why Not? Would have been a simple matter, Omar even said, if give us the proof, we will turn him over. He did not agree with or condone the WTC attacks, yet we stayed and are still there in that country murdering people who had NOTHING to do with the WTC attacks.

If we wanted to protect America, we should stop going to other countries, shooting at their people, just shore up our borders and leave other counties to manage their own, after all that's what we expect from them isn't it?

[Edited on 2/28/2015 by gina]


GINA, how did you come up with human rights when he said constitutional rights?

 

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World Class Peach



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  posted on 3/2/2015 at 02:46 PM
Billy the people getting water boarded are NOT American citizens SO the 8th does not apply to them and as far as I am concerned they can do what ever they want to get information out of them, the reason for the 2nd is to keep the ones getting waterboarded away from US........ or anyone else who thinks they can try and take over this country it is NOT for hunting, or shooting sports those are results of having the 2nd...

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/3/2015 at 12:38 PM
quote:
quote:
Yes you are correct. There has been a ton of 8th amendment jurisprudence. It is simply hyperbole to make the statement that Americans care about the 2d but not the 8th amendment. All the amendments are operative. As for so-called "enhanced interrogation technques" well first, the people involved are illegal combatants and not entitled to constitutional protections at all. This is why they are held without trial for one thing. Second, not everybody agrees on the definition of cruel and unusual. Third and most important, these tecniques, like all interrogation techniqies whether waterboarding or just using sleep deprivation or hot lights, are designed to garner information, not to punish.


Well the black site in Chicago is allegedly using torture against Americans. I don't know where you see the hyperbole - I didn't say "care more". I said many Americans who accept the 2nd amendment as gospel support torture.

And there you go - absolutely proving my hypothesis.

"so-called "enhanced interrogation technques"" So called? Wow. Didn't we convict Japanese that used water boarding during WWII for war crimes?

It is clear you cannot see the disconnect in your thinking.

I find the same disconnect in people opposed to abortion yet in support of capital punishment.

Fascinating.


I'm pro choice but I can easily see how one can oppose abortion and support capital punishment. In one case the life is innocent. In the other it has committed the ultimate crime as judged by a jury of its' peers.

 

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True Peach



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  posted on 3/3/2015 at 01:15 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
It could be simply because the 2nd Amendment has a direct effect on a large portion of the people while the 8th Amendment affects very few, if any, citizens.


I'd argue that processes in our justice system effect every American. Sure, a lot of people own guns. But everybody owns there freedom. If torture can be used to get a confession than aren't we all at risk of losing our freedom?


The people subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques are not American citizens and therefore not entitled to any constitutional right.

F’k ‘em. If they choose to kill Americans and anyone else that doesn’t agree with their perversion of Islam they shall get what is coming to them.




Oh so only American citizens are entitled to human rights.

What rights did the Arabs who were just living in the post Soviet era Afghan and Pakistani lands have? None because they were not Americans?

Even our Tribunals who found that they had not done anything and should be released was not enough, they still sit there in Gitmo. WHY? We are running it, but we don't even abide by the decisions of the courts we created.

Why do you suppose Americans are being killed? Could it be because WE have invaded the lands of other countries and are shooting at the people who live there? Oh but that's okay, because we are Americans, we can go anywhere, bomb anybody and say that we are right.

IRAQ did nothing to us, we had no reason killing more than a million of their people did we? What is the result, applause for getting rid of Saddam, and creation of ISIS, who will not stop fighting us after what they saw us do in their own land, in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Mullah Omar NEVER gave Osama the land he lived on in Afghanistan, he asked for proof of his guilt in 9/11, NONE was ever presented to him. Why Not? Would have been a simple matter, Omar even said, if give us the proof, we will turn him over. He did not agree with or condone the WTC attacks, yet we stayed and are still there in that country murdering people who had NOTHING to do with the WTC attacks.

If we wanted to protect America, we should stop going to other countries, shooting at their people, just shore up our borders and leave other counties to manage their own, after all that's what we expect from them isn't it?

[Edited on 2/28/2015 by gina]


GINA, how did you come up with human rights when he said constitutional rights?


Rights granted by the US Constitution only apply to those governed by it, we all know that. But they also apply to US citizens on the "giving" side of torture, i.e. taking away the rights of others. And however you want to interpret the letter of the law, to say that the basic human rights that it guarantees apply only to US citizens is too narrow, IMO. After all, the Declaration of Independence does not say "only American citizens are created equal" or that "certain rights only apply in certain situations" for a reason...

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

To support torture only because someone is not a US citizen goes against the very principles the country was founded on, IMO.




[Edited on 3/3/2015 by gondicar]

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 3/3/2015 at 02:42 PM
quote:
Billy the people getting water boarded are NOT American citizens SO the 8th does not apply to them and as far as I am concerned they can do what ever they want to get information out of them, the reason for the 2nd is to keep the ones getting waterboarded away from US........ or anyone else who thinks they can try and take over this country it is NOT for hunting, or shooting sports those are results of having the 2nd...


We don't know if the Chicago Police are water boarding at that newly discovered black site. When a country adopts amoral attitudes and actions towards human rights overseas it is a small step to adopt those same methods of torture to be used on its own citizens.

A government will not care about citizenship if they feel they are dealing with an enemy of the State.

All of the torture was done in secret. How do we know where or if it stopped?

Besides the Geneva Conventions makes torture of non-citizens illegal. We are a party to that convention. If the Geneva Convention can be ignored why wouldn't the government ignore the 8th amendment.

Which is my point. Gun advocates proudly tout the 2nd Amendment to protect it yet wipe their butts with the 8th amendment by applauding torture.

 

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Universal Peach



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  posted on 3/3/2015 at 03:31 PM
quote:
quote:
Billy the people getting water boarded are NOT American citizens SO the 8th does not apply to them and as far as I am concerned they can do what ever they want to get information out of them, the reason for the 2nd is to keep the ones getting waterboarded away from US........ or anyone else who thinks they can try and take over this country it is NOT for hunting, or shooting sports those are results of having the 2nd...


We don't know if the Chicago Police are water boarding at that newly discovered black site. When a country adopts amoral attitudes and actions towards human rights overseas it is a small step to adopt those same methods of torture to be used on its own citizens.

A government will not care about citizenship if they feel they are dealing with an enemy of the State.

All of the torture was done in secret. How do we know where or if it stopped?

Besides the Geneva Conventions makes torture of non-citizens illegal. We are a party to that convention. If the Geneva Convention can be ignored why wouldn't the government ignore the 8th amendment.

Which is my point. Gun advocates proudly tout the 2nd Amendment to protect it yet wipe their butts with the 8th amendment by applauding torture.

____________________________________________________________________

So, are you saying the Islamic Extremist Terrorists are in violation of The Geneva Convention?

If so, what are you going to do about it?
The same as obama which is nothing?

 

World Class Peach



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  posted on 3/3/2015 at 10:52 PM
quote:
quote:
Billy the people getting water boarded are NOT American citizens SO the 8th does not apply to them and as far as I am concerned they can do what ever they want to get information out of them, the reason for the 2nd is to keep the ones getting waterboarded away from US........ or anyone else who thinks they can try and take over this country it is NOT for hunting, or shooting sports those are results of having the 2nd...


We don't know if the Chicago Police are water boarding at that newly discovered black site. When a country adopts amoral attitudes and actions towards human rights overseas it is a small step to adopt those same methods of torture to be used on its own citizens.

A government will not care about citizenship if they feel they are dealing with an enemy of the State.

All of the torture was done in secret. How do we know where or if it stopped?

Besides the Geneva Conventions makes torture of non-citizens illegal. We are a party to that convention. If the Geneva Convention can be ignored why wouldn't the government ignore the 8th amendment.

Which is my point. Gun advocates proudly tout the 2nd Amendment to protect it yet wipe their butts with the 8th amendment by applauding torture.


That Sir is a perfect example of why the 2nd amendment was written to protect yourself from just that!

Or turn the other cheek and get it slapped too....

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 3/3/2015 at 11:45 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
Billy the people getting water boarded are NOT American citizens SO the 8th does not apply to them and as far as I am concerned they can do what ever they want to get information out of them, the reason for the 2nd is to keep the ones getting waterboarded away from US........ or anyone else who thinks they can try and take over this country it is NOT for hunting, or shooting sports those are results of having the 2nd...


We don't know if the Chicago Police are water boarding at that newly discovered black site. When a country adopts amoral attitudes and actions towards human rights overseas it is a small step to adopt those same methods of torture to be used on its own citizens.

A government will not care about citizenship if they feel they are dealing with an enemy of the State.

All of the torture was done in secret. How do we know where or if it stopped?

Besides the Geneva Conventions makes torture of non-citizens illegal. We are a party to that convention. If the Geneva Convention can be ignored why wouldn't the government ignore the 8th amendment.

Which is my point. Gun advocates proudly tout the 2nd Amendment to protect it yet wipe their butts with the 8th amendment by applauding torture.


That Sir is a perfect example of why the 2nd amendment was written to protect yourself from just that!

Or turn the other cheek and get it slapped too....



The black sites that spring from citizen support of torture is exactly the reason why the guns are impotent. If the government wants your guns they will take them. If you hide your guns the government will torture you until you tell them where the guns are.

The Bill of Rights doesn't exist in a vacuum. By endorsing torture you dilute the 2nd Amendment, and all of our rights.

 

____________________
Capitalism will always survive, because socialism will be there to save it.



Ralph Nader's Father




 
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