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Author: Subject: Any other fans of this album??

Peach Master





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  posted on 2/12/2004 at 01:40 AM
I picked up "Love Devotion Surrender" by John McLaughlin and Carlos Santana the other day.I think it was cut in the mid 70s.

It's all I've listened to the past few days.Really incredible stuff.Santana before he sold out and was still "edgy".McLaughlin at his finest.Interesting song selection."A Love Supreme" is absolutley devistating.

Another album I've been listening to a bunch latley is "Birds Of Fire" by Mahivishnu Orchestra,also featuring John McLaughlin.Hard to describe this one,but it's good,and if you dig stuff by the Allman's like "Insturmental Illness",you'll like it.

I'd like to hear Gov't Mule cover some of this material.I could really see them doing some of the Mahivishnu Orchestra tunes,espically stuff like "One Word" or "Sanctuary".

Check these two albums out.They can be had pretty cheap used off of EBay or Amazon,and they aren't all that expensive new either.Definetly worth checking out.

WB.

 

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  posted on 2/12/2004 at 02:05 AM
I got LDS for X-mas, maybe '78, when I'd asked for Moonflower. Listened, didn't like it (too young?) traded it with my drum teacher for Moonflower. Haven't heard it since, and don't remember.....hmmmm....gonna check the bargain bins when I'm over.....
 

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  posted on 2/12/2004 at 03:20 AM
First off, I disagree with your opinion that Santana ever sold out.
He stills follows his prayers, heart, vision and his dreams.
If you don't like where that takes him, so be it.
It don't make him a sellout.

But I do enjoy "Love Devotion Surrender" very much. it has
a lot of fire. Definitely a meeting of the musical hearts of
John and Carlos. It helped that they both had the same
spiritual practice and teacher at that time.

"Birds of Fire" is my favorite of the Mahavishnu studio record.
But my favortie is the live album. "Between Nothingness and Eternity"
it was during that period that I first saw John McLaughlin with Mahavishnu.
Fire came off of this fretboard when he played. I saw it dancing there
as he played.

John still has the fire. As I witnessed on the Rember Shakti tour last fall.

I would recommend checking out John with Tony William's Lifetime
and Miles Davis also.

Peace
John

 

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  posted on 2/12/2004 at 03:35 AM

quote:
First off, I disagree with your opinion that Santana ever sold out.
He stills follows his prayers, heart, vision and his dreams.



Lots of people like a lot of Santana's recent work. I did not mind the material he was putting out, even upto Supernatural. That last album, Shaman, however, put me off. Not that he made the album for me to like, but one way or the other, Santana is nowhere near the genius he used to be. The innovation and ideas he brought to his work, even in the eighties, soars miles above his current musical excursions...

I'm not interested in whether he sells out or not...make a pop album, whatever...at least make it brilliant...one expects as much from Santana...

one man's opinion, s'all...



as far as LDS goes, I haven't given it a long enough listen...never got into it enough...I love ALMOST everything else done by both musicians...this definitely warrants a revisit...


quote:
But my favorite is the live album. "Between Nothingness and Eternity"




gives me the shivers to this day. one of those "Landmark Musical Moments In Your Life" kinda things...

 

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  posted on 2/12/2004 at 05:47 AM
Both are really good.
Like Moonflower as well.
Got those lps in 70's. replaced them in 90's.
I give them a listen some.
I think DTB could cook on some of the John MC stuff.

Light

 

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  posted on 2/12/2004 at 06:02 AM
Al - is LSD legal over there? You got it for Xmas...? Is it cheaper than X?

 

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Peach Master



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  posted on 2/12/2004 at 10:02 AM
John,
Sorry,but Carlos sold out.

Before making "Supernatural",Carlos went to Cliive Davis.Clive asked him "What can I do for you Carlos?".

Carlos said "I want my daughters to hear me on the radio".

That's called selling out-when you sacrifice your musical tastes or intergrity,for fame and fortune.

Look at what he used to do.That was some brilliant,spiritual stuff.

Now he's playing behind rappers and teenage bubble gum pop artists that no one will remember in 5 years.It wouldn't suprise me if he cut a record with Brittney Spears.

He went from composing and playing extremly deep,spiritual music,on the level of Coltrane or Miles Davis,to playing guitar licks behind a couple of high school kids from LA singing some two chord,crappy pop song that was sappier than a John Mayer tune.

He sold out,big time.

It's sad,because he's an absolutley devistating guitar player and a true musical genius.But instead of exploiting those gifts,he's turned into more of a studio guitarist,a hired gun,playing behind whoever is selling the most records at the moment,and then branding his name on it.And the stuff he is playing is just fluff,like the crappy pop songs he's playing on.

Don't tell me he's doing anything spirtual playing a few licks behind a couple gangsta rappers or Michele Branch.

WB.

 

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  posted on 2/12/2004 at 10:12 AM
The Mclaughlin & Santana album is great. I have hot heard it in years.

 

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  posted on 2/12/2004 at 10:44 AM
That Mclaughlin / Carlos combo is really a magical one indeed! Very very spiritual, the kind of music that can take you to another place if you let it - very deep stuff. There is a bit torrent download on the "Sharing The Groove" website that currently has a Carlos /Mclaughlin/Billy Cobham combo that is simply out of this world! Its loaded with LONG songs and free from jazz/fusion music with hints and teases of Afro Blue and FavoriteThings. Amazing...

As far as Carlos selling out - he seems a little too deep and spiritual for a calculated sellout move but I guess you could make that argument if you wanted too. If The ABB did something similar they would be getting killed and critiqued all over the place. He has done a complete turn-around on the type of music he's currently been recording. I don't like it at all and wish he would put something out with "our guys" as sidemen or musicians from the "Jamband" community. He's already shared the stage with Widespread Panic and Phish among others. I'm sure Warren, Derek, Dickey, Scofield, Bill Frisell, Chuck Leavell, Dave Schools, Mike Gordon, John Bell, Michael Kang, Steve Kimock, Rodney Holmes etc etc would love to record with him. Come on Carlos - Do it! The "Jammy" community is loaded with talent. This hip-hop stuff has got to go.



[Edited on 2/12/2004 by EddieP]

 
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  posted on 2/12/2004 at 10:56 AM
Outstanding idea Eddie! Personally, I feel that Supernatural is a great album and still enjoy it. However, I could not agree more strongly that Shaman was a HUGE disappointment. Some folks lump these two albums together, but I think they are worlds apart, and the difference is the guests. On Supernatural, you had Dave Matthews, Eric Clapton, Lauryn Hill, some real A-list talent. On Shaman you get Michelle Branch and POD Even if Supernatural was planned for commercial success, it was still good music. Shaman was a totally forced, commercialized pop product. I had a "Say it ain't so, Carlos" moment when I realized that Shaman's liner notes had no lyrics, but several pages of info about ordering Carlos' brand of clothing!

That's what makes Eddie's idea so great. Carlos still has the chops and skill to play with anybody on the planet. Put him in the same room with Derek, Victor Wooten, Jeff Sipe and John Medeski and good things would happen If he is going to play with the younger crowd, at least play with the ones who "get it."

 
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  posted on 2/12/2004 at 10:59 AM
quote:
If he is going to play with the younger crowd, at least play with the ones who "get it."



Exactly Rob!

 
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  posted on 2/12/2004 at 11:01 AM
would rather hear mclaughlin alone...LDS always sounded cacophonous to me...and i always suspected it was a sri chinmoy marketing scheme...

too cynical?

bill laswell's remix of LDS and CS's illuminations, called "divine light", softens some of that noise...i like it...

 

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  posted on 2/12/2004 at 02:27 PM
Had myself a phase with addiction to the fusion Santana/McLaughlin thing, sometimes when drunk sometimes when sober........
Can`t hear it no more..........can`t feel it in my belly.........that`s were good music is heard

 

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  posted on 2/12/2004 at 02:34 PM
I thought I heard my name.....oh wrong John

I used to have the LSD lp too. You needed lots of relaxation time. IIRC the next lp by Santana was him guesting with Alice Coltrane. Anyone remember that?

To continue the thread , how about Jeff Beck's "Blow by Blow"? Doesn't that still make your timbers shiver. I remember buying the thing and getting blown away by Freeway Jam and Cause We've Ended as Lovers......no industrial car noises there.

Cheers

Carlos "I still Live Free Form Funkafied Filth" Rivera

[Edited on 2/12/2004 by carlosofcoronado]

 

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  posted on 2/12/2004 at 02:38 PM
quote:
John,
Sorry,but Carlos sold out.

Before making "Supernatural",Carlos went to Cliive Davis.Clive asked him "What can I do for you Carlos?".

Carlos said "I want my daughters to hear me on the radio".


You only have half the story. The second half.

The idea for Supernatural came to him through meditation. His spirit guides
advised him to make some positive music for younger people. He was
upset with all the negativity in popular music. So the vision was to
make popular music with a positive message for young people. The
spirits told him to collaborate with younger artisits to make it happen.

It was at that point he went to Clive and enlisted his help in lining up
the artists that appear on Supernatural.

It worked: Supernatural is a wonderful record with a positive message
and it reached the young people.

You call that a sellout. I call it following a vision with faith.

I don't think Shaman is as good as Supernatural but I like
the tracks with Seal and Macy Gray.

Peace
John

 

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  posted on 2/12/2004 at 03:06 PM
I have both Supernatural and Shaman and I actually listen to Shaman more. I put it on when I just want to rock out to some overdriven humbucker guitar and not think too hard about it. I really like that Dido tune as well, I love her voice.

Whether he sold out or not isn't an argument I want to get into. I'll put it this way - even if he did, I forgive him. He's Carlos Santana.

I did recently get a copy of Caravanserai from a guy on another forum. He went out and got the reissue, so he freebied me his old copy. I've only heard it once so far. I can't wait to dig into it more when I have the time.

[Edited on 2/12/2004 by Jeck]

 

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  posted on 2/12/2004 at 04:17 PM
"I did recently get a copy of Caravanserai from a guy on another forum. He went out and got the reissue, so he freebied me his old copy. I've only heard it once so far. I can't wait to dig into it more when I have the time."


-------OK, after listening to that for 30 years, can anyone today tell me who the heck the flute player is on that release? It aint Flora Purim, but they need to credit the guy

Cheers

Carlos "have the vinyl somewhere" Rivera

 

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  posted on 2/12/2004 at 05:22 PM
Santana Mark II

Carlos (R., not S.), you asked, "Can anyone today tell me who the heck the flute player is on" Caravanserai? My guess is Hadley Caliman, a wind player who is given credit only for "Saxophone introduction" on "Eternal Caravan of Reincarnation," the album's opening track.

Caravanserai was Carlos Santana's first Santana band album after accepting Sri Chinmoy as his guru, I think. Love Devotion Surrender (collaboration with Mahavishnu John McLaughlin, not Santana band) was recorded about the same time in 1972. Caravanserai was released in 1972, LDS 1973.

The previous Santana album, however, was Energy for the Universe from the Center of a Volcano, also known as Carlos Santana & Buddy Miles! Live! This was "Recorded in Diamond Head Crater January 0, 1972" (yes, "0") and featured "Hadley Caliman,** Sax & Flute" ("**Courtesy Mainstream Records"). There's no trace of Sri Chinmoy, but this album does include the song "Marbles" by John McLaughlin, with this great little rhythm line:
3 4 5 7b, 5 4 3, 4 5 7b 8 7b 5 4 (repeat, except for those breaks with 7b 8 10b 7b 8 etc.)

Welcome (1973) was cut with a largely different band--what you might call Santana Mark III. There were flutes on a couple songs: Bob Yance and Mel Martin, with a flute solo on one by Joe Farrell. This album also has another Carlos-Mahavishnu collaboration, "Flame-Sky," which doesn't look to have been cut at the LDS sessions, because the other players are all different.

[Edited on 2004.2.13 by PeterNelson]

 

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  posted on 2/12/2004 at 05:55 PM
It's interesting you bring up Welcome, Peter - I've been working through the Santana reissues, most of which are new to me (and wow! Isn't Caravanserai a joy? All The Love In The Universe!!! ) and Welcome struck me as one hell of an odd album for him to make.

The point being, has anyone else noticed that there's no (or almost no) guitar on the old "Side One" at all? Really, Carlos' only major foray is on Flame-Sky - well worth the price of admission, but something of an oddity, next to the easy listening soul-jazz-funk of the rest of the album.

Like I said, one hell of an odd album...

 
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  posted on 2/12/2004 at 11:56 PM
Caravanserai is the last album with Gregg Rolie and Neal Schon.

After that they left to form Journey.

Carlos has said it is one of his favorite guitar albums.
He feels both he and Neal played really well and
is very happy with the results.

But disputes between the band members caused that
lineup to dissolve shortly after the record was done.

peace
John

 

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  posted on 2/13/2004 at 01:04 AM
"LOTUS" is a great Santana album. Also "Santana and Buddy Miles Live!" is the bomb. Two incredibly brilliant albums.
 

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  posted on 2/16/2004 at 04:48 PM
Carlos Santana's Supernatural and Shaman are infamous in some circles for the wide variety of guest stars recruited to boost sales. Of course, this tactic is not new, and in Santana's own case, check out this cast of characters from Havana Moon, 1983 (I'll put it into ABC order):

Barry Beckett (producer; Muscle Shoals keyboardist on sessions with Duane)
Fabulous Thunderbirds (before Jimmy's brother Stevie Ray got famous)
David Hood (Muscle Shoals bassist on sessions with Duane)
Leonardo "Flaco" Jimenez (accordion)
Booker T. Jones (player and also producer)
Willie Nelson
Santana Band
Jose Santana
Santana Percussion Section
Tower of Power Horns
Greg Walker (past Santana band singer)
Jerry Wexler (producer extraordinaire, as on many sessions with Duane)

Havana Moon has a more focused musical concept and less commercial intent than Supernatural etc. The notes by Carlos emphasize the importance of the music of his Mexican youth, the blues, and the Fab T-Birds in particular to this album:

"The Fabulous Thunderbirds--Over the years, I've listened closely to the magic of this great band from Austin, Texas, who specialize in getting to the heart of the Blues. Whenever they came to San Franscisco, I made it a point to hear their concerts and finally asked them to be part of this music

"As the concept for this album became finalized, I decided to collaborate with Booker T. on the music and Jerry Wexler and Barry Beckett on the production. It turned out to be a fantastic combination. With the input of the Santana percussion section, the soulful singing of Greg Walker, and the expertise of engineer Jim Gaines, the concept became a reality. . . .

"Finally, in the words of Duke Ellington, 'There's only good music and bad music.' [More precisely, Duke said, '. . . and the other kind.'] To me the criterion for good music all around the world is soulfulness and sincerity. Thanks for listening, and God Bless you!"

 

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  posted on 2/16/2004 at 07:05 PM
quote:


"Finally, in the words of Duke Ellington, 'There's only good music and bad music.' [More precisely, Duke said, '. . . and the other kind.'] To me the criterion for good music all around the world is soulfulness and sincerity. Thanks for listening, and God Bless you!"



And he continued..

"if it sounds good and feels good, it is good"

Peace
John

 

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  posted on 2/16/2004 at 07:18 PM
I have heard the album and it is good in a different direction from Santana at that time. I have a 3 CD set of Carlos and John in concert in Chicago from 73. The sound quality sucks and the cuts are intresting. To me it sounds like 2 guitarist trying to out play each other.
Santana sold out with his last couple of CDs. The best Santana was the first 3 studio CDs, the Woodstock performance and a Fillmore West show from 68. The Fillmore CD is poor sound quality but you could tell these guys were getting something going. The Lotus CD is a different line up of players. After the 3rd CD Santana lost the original line up and took a turn for the worse. To me he has been for the last 35 years trying to get the a new group of fans but is trying to change to much, so he can go to them not them come to him. I think the last couple of CDs have given him a new young fan base to keep him around a little longer. I have not enjoyed his stuff as much since the 3rd CD. It is the same thing I have posted about other bands including ABB. But, times change as do musical tastes. Just be thankfull disco did not last, and pray we can get rid of rap in our life time.

 

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  posted on 2/24/2004 at 02:02 AM
quote:
Carlos (R., not S.), you asked, "Can anyone today tell me who the heck the flute player is on" Caravanserai? My guess is Hadley Caliman, a wind player who is given credit only for "Saxophone introduction" on "Eternal Caravan of Reincarnation," the album's opening track.
Carlos, I've been looking at my Santana albums lately and found this in the fine print in Caravanserai (1972):

"Orchestra arranged by Tom Harrel"

It appears at the end of the credits of only the very last song, "Every Step of the Way," although maybe it should apply to more of the album, too. That could cover your flute, rather than Hadley Caliman (who is credited with flute on the Santana-Buddy Miles album, also 1972). Tom Harrell, with two "l"s, is a highly regarded jazz trumpeter, composer, and arranger, by the way, so maybe this was him on Caravanserai (following site does not have detailed discographical and arrangement info):
http://home.earthlink.net/~tomharrell/harrell.html

Similarly, on Welcome (1973) there are credits for "Strings Arranged by Greg Adams and Tom Coster" and "Scored and Conducted by Greg Adams" (on only the song "Light of Life"), but no individual players are named.

Paul, generally, I listen to only "Flame-Sky" off Welcome, or at most just side 2 (LP). The rest is too smooooth after hearing Carlos and John going at it! I'm more likely to put on Love Devotion Surrender or some Mahavishnu Orchestra, rather than flip Welcome over to side 1.

Also, I've been researching and collating the Santana (and Mahavishnu Orchestra) lineups from the album jackets and on the web. John (O., not McL.), I agree that nearly the same core lineup is on Caravanserai as on the first three Santana albums, so this was still Santana Mark I. More on this later, revelator!

 

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