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Author: Subject: Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day..

Peach Pro





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  posted on 8/8/2013 at 11:16 AM
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man how to fish and you force him to get up early, bust his butt all day , buy and maintain a boat and fishing gear when he could have skipped all of this and just gone on assistance.

A large group of people in this country are saying, 'Just give me the freakin fish and some beer money and I will be fine.'

 

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Outside in the cold distance
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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 8/8/2013 at 01:55 PM
Almost as many people getting hand outs as corporations. Get your priorities straight.

 

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World Class Peach



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  posted on 8/8/2013 at 07:08 PM
There is the possibility that both of you are right - the entitlement mentality is rampant. Both those on welfare and those with mega-income getting subsidized.
 

Peach Pro



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  posted on 8/8/2013 at 08:39 PM
quote:
There is the possibility that both of you are right - the entitlement mentality is rampant. Both those on welfare and those with mega-income getting subsidized.


That is my point. I don't support it. I have never taken an unearned dime in my life. Started working when I was 12 doing small part time jobs and a paper route.

There is a certain lack of self respect that is taking root and many people just don't care any more. I have lost count of corparations that were/are down right criminal.

They own our politicians and it is not hidden and there is no doubt about it.

At a basic level I have some very deep worries about the future of this country that I have served and love. Hopefully I am very wrong.

 

____________________




Outside in the cold distance

A wildcat did growl

Two riders were approaching

And the wind began to howl

 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 8/8/2013 at 08:51 PM
To me the greater criminality, the greater burden on society, are the corporations not paying taxes and getting tax funded subsidies. Unfortunately many of those corporations also own the media so they are able to control the debate.

I agree with lovelead's original premise. It is better to teach a man to fish... So why does our society reward CEO's better than teachers, lawyers better than cops, Insurance agents better than mechanics?

 

____________________
Capitalism will always survive, because socialism will be there to save it.

Ralph Nader's Father


 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 8/8/2013 at 09:41 PM
quote:
There is the possibility that both of you are right - the entitlement mentality is rampant. Both those on welfare and those with mega-income getting subsidized.


Just spreading wealth around. Is there a problem?

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 8/8/2013 at 09:44 PM
I don't think subsidies to the wealthy is spreading wealth around. It's giving more wealth to those with so much that they feel entitled and don't give back.

 

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Capitalism will always survive, because socialism will be there to save it.

Ralph Nader's Father


 

Peach Pro



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  posted on 8/8/2013 at 11:11 PM
quote:
To me the greater criminality, the greater burden on society, are the corporations not paying taxes and getting tax funded subsidies. Unfortunately many of those corporations also own the media so they are able to control the debate.

I agree with lovelead's original premise. It is better to teach a man to fish... So why does our society reward CEO's better than teachers, lawyers better than cops, Insurance agents better than mechanics?


It is criminal what many corporations get away with. They get away with murder and I mean that literally. The lies over poison in cigarettes to lies about toxic waste dumps and too many more to list have killed millions over the years. It is disgusting to put it mildly.

 

____________________




Outside in the cold distance

A wildcat did growl

Two riders were approaching

And the wind began to howl

 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 8/9/2013 at 08:23 AM
quote:
quote:
To me the greater criminality, the greater burden on society, are the corporations not paying taxes and getting tax funded subsidies. Unfortunately many of those corporations also own the media so they are able to control the debate.

I agree with lovelead's original premise. It is better to teach a man to fish... So why does our society reward CEO's better than teachers, lawyers better than cops, Insurance agents better than mechanics?

It is criminal what many corporations get away with. They get away with murder and I mean that literally. The lies over poison in cigarettes to lies about toxic waste dumps and too many more to list have killed millions over the years. It is disgusting to put it mildly.


This line of thinking is a hoot. Is it the corporation's fault that we have such an insane tax system that allows legislators to create loopholes, provisions, subsidies, grants, carve-outs, and all manner of assorted favors for a select few? And in the process, engage in what can only be called legalized corruption, as compliant politicians accept favors (campaign cash, favorable media, opposition research, ect.) in return for rigging the system for their friends. Funnier yet, many probably think that in some unicorn-filled utopia more laws should be enacted that will stop all this nastiness, and bring to heel all those naughty politicians and their evil friends in business.

Get a grip. The only way to stop this revolving door of stupidity is to change the system. Income-based taxation is wrong on many fronts. It is hugely expensive to maintain, easily manipulated, leaves out large swaths of people who receive unreported income, fosters a consumption mentality (when savings and investment are more vital to national & personal wealth), inspires schemes for the wealthy to keep their money offshore, adds huge and unproductive compliance costs, creates tax enforcers feared by the public, and gives politicians a tool to play divide and conquer on the citizens via tax rates.

Further, any business tax at all is just a means of soothing the minds of the unthinking into a belief that business is somehow paying their share. How is that possible, when the cost of taxes must be part of the price paid for any product or service? Their share is your money! Business tax is simply a not-so-hidden pass-through to taxing personal income. The throngs calling for higher business taxes probably haven't figured out that doing so only raises their cost of living, and inspires even more political games as companies petition their legislative friends for more breaks.

The Fair Tax fixes all these problems. Business tax gets set to zero, lowering prices (removing both the tax itself and compliance costs), completely halting the corruption associated with manipulating an income-based system, and establishing a more competitive playing field between large and small companies. Combined with the positive effects on personal taxation and productive investment in the US, it would be a huge boon to those seeking more manufacturing here, more jobs, and less political corruption.

The only ones who lose in the equation are the politicians, and the big companies who have worked for years to create advantages with them. Who wouldn't want to see that happen?

 

____________________
Obamacare: To insure the uninsured, we first make the insured
uninsured and then make them pay more to be insured again,
so the original uninsured can be insured for free.

 

Peach Pro



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  posted on 8/9/2013 at 09:34 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
To me the greater criminality, the greater burden on society, are the corporations not paying taxes and getting tax funded subsidies. Unfortunately many of those corporations also own the media so they are able to control the debate.

I agree with lovelead's original premise. It is better to teach a man to fish... So why does our society reward CEO's better than teachers, lawyers better than cops, Insurance agents better than mechanics?

It is criminal what many corporations get away with. They get away with murder and I mean that literally. The lies over poison in cigarettes to lies about toxic waste dumps and too many more to list have killed millions over the years. It is disgusting to put it mildly.


This line of thinking is a hoot. Is it the corporation's fault that we have such an insane tax system that allows legislators to create loopholes, provisions, subsidies, grants, carve-outs, and all manner of assorted favors for a select few? And in the process, engage in what can only be called legalized corruption, as compliant politicians accept favors (campaign cash, favorable media, opposition research, ect.) in return for rigging the system for their friends. Funnier yet, many probably think that in some unicorn-filled utopia more laws should be enacted that will stop all this nastiness, and bring to heel all those naughty politicians and their evil friends in business.

Get a grip. The only way to stop this revolving door of stupidity is to change the system. Income-based taxation is wrong on many fronts. It is hugely expensive to maintain, easily manipulated, leaves out large swaths of people who receive unreported income, fosters a consumption mentality (when savings and investment are more vital to national & personal wealth), inspires schemes for the wealthy to keep their money offshore, adds huge and unproductive compliance costs, creates tax enforcers feared by the public, and gives politicians a tool to play divide and conquer on the citizens via tax rates.

Further, any business tax at all is just a means of soothing the minds of the unthinking into a belief that business is somehow paying their share. How is that possible, when the cost of taxes must be part of the price paid for any product or service? Their share is your money! Business tax is simply a not-so-hidden pass-through to taxing personal income. The throngs calling for higher business taxes probably haven't figured out that doing so only raises their cost of living, and inspires even more political games as companies petition their legislative friends for more breaks.

The Fair Tax fixes all these problems. Business tax gets set to zero, lowering prices (removing both the tax itself and compliance costs), completely halting the corruption associated with manipulating an income-based system, and establishing a more competitive playing field between large and small companies. Combined with the positive effects on personal taxation and productive investment in the US, it would be a huge boon to those seeking more manufacturing here, more jobs, and less political corruption.

The only ones who lose in the equation are the politicians, and the big companies who have worked for years to create advantages with them. Who wouldn't want to see that happen?


There was a time I would agree. I was in favor of greatly reducing or even eliminating taxes on business. I have changed my mind over time.

The stock market has been on a bull run for a number of years now because the Fed. has been printing money like mad and companies are flush with cash and others assets. However they have just been lining their coffers. They have done very little hiring and don't plan on doing too much more. The suffering of millions of people out of work is horrendous.

I no longer believe that eliminating/greatly reducing taxes on business would prompt them to expand, hire and help those out of work including the people who no longer bother to look and have given up hope.

No, I don't believe slashing corp. taxes would accomplish anything more than helping them stuff their pockets...which I sadly have to say, is their right.

ARTICE not written by me:

If the economy is getting better, then why does poverty in America continue to grow so rapidly? Yes, the stock market has been hitting all-time highs recently, but also the number of Americans living in poverty has now reached a level not seen since the 1960s. Yes, corporate profits are at levels never seen before, but so is the number of Americans on food stamps. Yes, housing prices have started to rebound a little bit (especially in wealthy areas), but there are also more than a million public school students in America that are homeless. That is the first time that has ever happened in U.S. history. So should we measure our economic progress by the false stock market bubble that has been inflated by Ben Bernanke's reckless money printing, or should we measure our economic progress by how the poor and the middle class are doing? Because if we look at how average Americans are doing these days, then there is not much to be excited about. In fact, poverty continues to experience explosive growth in the United States and the middle class continues to shrink. Sadly, the truth is that things are not getting better for most Americans. With each passing year the level of economic suffering in this country continues to go up, and we haven't even reached the next major wave of the economic collapse yet.





 

____________________




Outside in the cold distance

A wildcat did growl

Two riders were approaching

And the wind began to howl

 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 8/9/2013 at 10:18 AM
quote:
This line of thinking is a hoot. Is it the corporation's fault that we have such an insane tax system that allows legislators to create loopholes, provisions, subsidies, grants, carve-outs, and all manner of assorted favors for a select few?


Seeing as it is the corporate owned lobbyists that write the tax code... yeah it is their fault. Everything you say after that is unsubstantiated pablum about a fair tax that isn't even a thing. Saying "fair" makes the ill informed masses feel good in the same way the name, the Patriot Act, gave folks warm and fuzzies after 9/11.
quote:
Get a grip. The only way to stop this revolving door of stupidity is to change the system.


You think? What are you doing to bring about this great sea change?

quote:
Further, any business tax at all is just a means of soothing the minds of the unthinking into a belief that business is somehow paying their share. How is that possible, when the cost of taxes must be part of the price paid for any product or service? Their share is your money! Business tax is simply a not-so-hidden pass-through to taxing personal income. The throngs calling for higher business taxes probably haven't figured out that doing so only raises their cost of living, and inspires even more political games as companies petition their legislative friends for more breaks.


Corporations are not paying any taxes and they are raking in record profits. Trickle down economics has not worked yet you want to protect the status quo.

To me it is clear you are arguing against your own interests. Someone reached out from the TV and implanted some science fiction goo in your brain that makes you think it is your job to protect corporate profits against the slings and arrows of the middle class and the poor. I don't get it. Maybe you are profiting from the ever growing wealth disparity.

I guess I am. Yesterday I looked at my 401K statement. Since 2008 my 401K has doubled. Because I had to shoulder the cost of second mortgage I stopped putting in a tax free contribution in 2009 and it still doubled. Doubled! I don't think I did anything different than most folks. I've got a good mix. I sure took a massive hit during the Bush administration, yet here, in this horrible economy, my investments doubled.

I sure hope those rich corporations make it to tomorrow. God bless them and keep them from paying taxes. They need those profits.

 

____________________
Capitalism will always survive, because socialism will be there to save it.

Ralph Nader's Father


 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 8/9/2013 at 11:12 AM
quote:
Everything you say after that is unsubstantiated pablum about a fair tax that isn't even a thing

Obviously you have no knowledge of a proposal that was years in the making and of which numerous books have been written. No wonder the rest of your comments are so ill informed.

 

____________________
Obamacare: To insure the uninsured, we first make the insured
uninsured and then make them pay more to be insured again,
so the original uninsured can be insured for free.

 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 8/9/2013 at 11:27 AM
quote:
There was a time I would agree. I was in favor of greatly reducing or even eliminating taxes on business. I have changed my mind over time.

The stock market has been on a bull run for a number of years now because the Fed. has been printing money like mad and companies are flush with cash and others assets. However they have just been lining their coffers. They have done very little hiring and don't plan on doing too much more. The suffering of millions of people out of work is horrendous.

I share your concern, as I'm sure you're surprised to hear. However, what's the alternative? More artificial economic pumping via debt?

Further, there have been many gov't actions taken that have suppressed investment in productive enterprise, or at minimum placed it in suspended animation. We have a leader who casts doubt about future gov't actions with nearly everything he says.

Economic health and the building or national wealth is a global competition for investment in productive enterprise. The countries with the best conditions for profit, stability, productivity, and infrastructure will win out. The question is; do we want to optimize our condition to play that game, or sit back and continue to whine about the wealthy and off-shore competition? And if we decide to play, do we want to do so via a small group of easily corruptible politicians handing out favors, or by setting broad market conditions where everyone has reasonably equal opportunities?

The answer seems pretty obvious, unless you're one of the ruling or corporate class who has already manipulated the conditions to your favor and doesn't want to lose power or advantages.

 

____________________
Obamacare: To insure the uninsured, we first make the insured
uninsured and then make them pay more to be insured again,
so the original uninsured can be insured for free.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 8/9/2013 at 12:04 PM
Hey Rich...

How come when someone who you perceive to be left-leaning says anything about the wealthy, or outsourcing or the like, you phrase it this way:

quote:
The question is; do we want to optimize our condition to play that game, or sit back and continue to whine about the wealthy and off-shore competition?


But, when you say essentially the same thing...

quote:
The answer seems pretty obvious, unless you're one of the ruling or corporate class who has already manipulated the conditions to your favor and doesn't want to lose power or advantages.


It isn't "whining?"

How ya been?

 

____________________
"Live every week like it's Shark Week." - Tracy Jordan

 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 8/9/2013 at 12:22 PM
All depends on your definition of whine, Mr. Hawk.

It always works that way, right?

Actually I had no intention of attaching a political alignment to those comments. There are plenty of people all over the political spectrum who have both; no perception of the global dimension and current state of investment in productive enterprise, and, the fact that our current tax system inspires political corruption in regard to business taxation. They haven't thought through where the money comes from that businesses uses to pay taxes, or understand the immense unproductive costs associated with tax compliance. We're paying for it all out of out incomes, so why accept it as is?

 

____________________
Obamacare: To insure the uninsured, we first make the insured
uninsured and then make them pay more to be insured again,
so the original uninsured can be insured for free.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 8/9/2013 at 01:05 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
To me the greater criminality, the greater burden on society, are the corporations not paying taxes and getting tax funded subsidies. Unfortunately many of those corporations also own the media so they are able to control the debate.

I agree with lovelead's original premise. It is better to teach a man to fish... So why does our society reward CEO's better than teachers, lawyers better than cops, Insurance agents better than mechanics?

It is criminal what many corporations get away with. They get away with murder and I mean that literally. The lies over poison in cigarettes to lies about toxic waste dumps and too many more to list have killed millions over the years. It is disgusting to put it mildly.


This line of thinking is a hoot. Is it the corporation's fault that we have such an insane tax system that allows legislators to create loopholes, provisions, subsidies, grants, carve-outs, and all manner of assorted favors for a select few? And in the process, engage in what can only be called legalized corruption, as compliant politicians accept favors (campaign cash, favorable media, opposition research, ect.) in return for rigging the system for their friends. Funnier yet, many probably think that in some unicorn-filled utopia more laws should be enacted that will stop all this nastiness, and bring to heel all those naughty politicians and their evil friends in business.

Get a grip. The only way to stop this revolving door of stupidity is to change the system. Income-based taxation is wrong on many fronts. It is hugely expensive to maintain, easily manipulated, leaves out large swaths of people who receive unreported income, fosters a consumption mentality (when savings and investment are more vital to national & personal wealth), inspires schemes for the wealthy to keep their money offshore, adds huge and unproductive compliance costs, creates tax enforcers feared by the public, and gives politicians a tool to play divide and conquer on the citizens via tax rates.

Further, any business tax at all is just a means of soothing the minds of the unthinking into a belief that business is somehow paying their share. How is that possible, when the cost of taxes must be part of the price paid for any product or service? Their share is your money! Business tax is simply a not-so-hidden pass-through to taxing personal income. The throngs calling for higher business taxes probably haven't figured out that doing so only raises their cost of living, and inspires even more political games as companies petition their legislative friends for more breaks.

The Fair Tax fixes all these problems. Business tax gets set to zero, lowering prices (removing both the tax itself and compliance costs), completely halting the corruption associated with manipulating an income-based system, and establishing a more competitive playing field between large and small companies. Combined with the positive effects on personal taxation and productive investment in the US, it would be a huge boon to those seeking more manufacturing here, more jobs, and less political corruption.

The only ones who lose in the equation are the politicians, and the big companies who have worked for years to create advantages with them. Who wouldn't want to see that happen?


There was a time I would agree. I was in favor of greatly reducing or even eliminating taxes on business. I have changed my mind over time.

The stock market has been on a bull run for a number of years now because the Fed. has been printing money like mad and companies are flush with cash and others assets. However they have just been lining their coffers. They have done very little hiring and don't plan on doing too much more. The suffering of millions of people out of work is horrendous.

I no longer believe that eliminating/greatly reducing taxes on business would prompt them to expand, hire and help those out of work including the people who no longer bother to look and have given up hope.

No, I don't believe slashing corp. taxes would accomplish anything more than helping them stuff their pockets...which I sadly have to say, is their right.

ARTICE not written by me:

If the economy is getting better, then why does poverty in America continue to grow so rapidly? Yes, the stock market has been hitting all-time highs recently, but also the number of Americans living in poverty has now reached a level not seen since the 1960s. Yes, corporate profits are at levels never seen before, but so is the number of Americans on food stamps. Yes, housing prices have started to rebound a little bit (especially in wealthy areas), but there are also more than a million public school students in America that are homeless. That is the first time that has ever happened in U.S. history. So should we measure our economic progress by the false stock market bubble that has been inflated by Ben Bernanke's reckless money printing, or should we measure our economic progress by how the poor and the middle class are doing? Because if we look at how average Americans are doing these days, then there is not much to be excited about. In fact, poverty continues to experience explosive growth in the United States and the middle class continues to shrink. Sadly, the truth is that things are not getting better for most Americans. With each passing year the level of economic suffering in this country continues to go up, and we haven't even reached the next major wave of the economic collapse yet.








The economy has NOT been getting better and companies know it. That is why expansion has not been happening. The business environment is very uncertain and the vast majority of private businesses, lumped in with giant corporations, do not benefit from the government sponsored largess. In my view neither Congress nor the administration has shown the first degree of understandiing that private business is the engine that builds prosperity. Instead we seem stuck in a class warfare zero sum game mentality where the administration thinks its the people against business (except of course those businesses that they like such as Solandra)

 

____________________

 

Peach Pro



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  posted on 8/9/2013 at 01:37 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
To me the greater criminality, the greater burden on society, are the corporations not paying taxes and getting tax funded subsidies. Unfortunately many of those corporations also own the media so they are able to control the debate.

I agree with lovelead's original premise. It is better to teach a man to fish... So why does our society reward CEO's better than teachers, lawyers better than cops, Insurance agents better than mechanics?

It is criminal what many corporations get away with. They get away with murder and I mean that literally. The lies over poison in cigarettes to lies about toxic waste dumps and too many more to list have killed millions over the years. It is disgusting to put it mildly.


This line of thinking is a hoot. Is it the corporation's fault that we have such an insane tax system that allows legislators to create loopholes, provisions, subsidies, grants, carve-outs, and all manner of assorted favors for a select few? And in the process, engage in what can only be called legalized corruption, as compliant politicians accept favors (campaign cash, favorable media, opposition research, ect.) in return for rigging the system for their friends. Funnier yet, many probably think that in some unicorn-filled utopia more laws should be enacted that will stop all this nastiness, and bring to heel all those naughty politicians and their evil friends in business.

Get a grip. The only way to stop this revolving door of stupidity is to change the system. Income-based taxation is wrong on many fronts. It is hugely expensive to maintain, easily manipulated, leaves out large swaths of people who receive unreported income, fosters a consumption mentality (when savings and investment are more vital to national & personal wealth), inspires schemes for the wealthy to keep their money offshore, adds huge and unproductive compliance costs, creates tax enforcers feared by the public, and gives politicians a tool to play divide and conquer on the citizens via tax rates.

Further, any business tax at all is just a means of soothing the minds of the unthinking into a belief that business is somehow paying their share. How is that possible, when the cost of taxes must be part of the price paid for any product or service? Their share is your money! Business tax is simply a not-so-hidden pass-through to taxing personal income. The throngs calling for higher business taxes probably haven't figured out that doing so only raises their cost of living, and inspires even more political games as companies petition their legislative friends for more breaks.

The Fair Tax fixes all these problems. Business tax gets set to zero, lowering prices (removing both the tax itself and compliance costs), completely halting the corruption associated with manipulating an income-based system, and establishing a more competitive playing field between large and small companies. Combined with the positive effects on personal taxation and productive investment in the US, it would be a huge boon to those seeking more manufacturing here, more jobs, and less political corruption.

The only ones who lose in the equation are the politicians, and the big companies who have worked for years to create advantages with them. Who wouldn't want to see that happen?


There was a time I would agree. I was in favor of greatly reducing or even eliminating taxes on business. I have changed my mind over time.

The stock market has been on a bull run for a number of years now because the Fed. has been printing money like mad and companies are flush with cash and others assets. However they have just been lining their coffers. They have done very little hiring and don't plan on doing too much more. The suffering of millions of people out of work is horrendous.

I no longer believe that eliminating/greatly reducing taxes on business would prompt them to expand, hire and help those out of work including the people who no longer bother to look and have given up hope.

No, I don't believe slashing corp. taxes would accomplish anything more than helping them stuff their pockets...which I sadly have to say, is their right.

ARTICE not written by me:

If the economy is getting better, then why does poverty in America continue to grow so rapidly? Yes, the stock market has been hitting all-time highs recently, but also the number of Americans living in poverty has now reached a level not seen since the 1960s. Yes, corporate profits are at levels never seen before, but so is the number of Americans on food stamps. Yes, housing prices have started to rebound a little bit (especially in wealthy areas), but there are also more than a million public school students in America that are homeless. That is the first time that has ever happened in U.S. history. So should we measure our economic progress by the false stock market bubble that has been inflated by Ben Bernanke's reckless money printing, or should we measure our economic progress by how the poor and the middle class are doing? Because if we look at how average Americans are doing these days, then there is not much to be excited about. In fact, poverty continues to experience explosive growth in the United States and the middle class continues to shrink. Sadly, the truth is that things are not getting better for most Americans. With each passing year the level of economic suffering in this country continues to go up, and we haven't even reached the next major wave of the economic collapse yet.








The economy has NOT been getting better and companies know it. That is why expansion has not been happening. The business environment is very uncertain and the vast majority of private businesses, lumped in with giant corporations, do not benefit from the government sponsored largess. In my view neither Congress nor the administration has shown the first degree of understandiing that private business is the engine that builds prosperity. Instead we seem stuck in a class warfare zero sum game mentality where the administration thinks its the people against business (except of course those businesses that they like such as Solandra)


What scares me most is that I am starting to believe that it will not get better. Those days of good mfg. jobs that sustained families and neighborhoods are ghosts of the past.

We have become a service/low end retail industry. Chain restaurants, Walmart, Dick's Sporting Goods, Home Despot (spelled correctly), Lowes and name a zillion others. Where employees are underpaid with crap benefits, have to be available seven days a week, live in fear of being written up, fired and have to walk around with headsets and walkie talkies spouting 'customer loyalty' slogans they don't believe in...or else.

My neighbor got a job at Home Despot and he had two over-priced choices for medical coverage.

Level 1 Coverage Maximum $10,000 per family per year.

Level 2 Deluxe Coverage $20,000 per family per year.

Standard 20% co-pay.


$20k ???? Are you freakin kidding me???? My nephew was very ill last year and was rushed to the hospital where he was treated for 8 days. He recovered and has been doing great.

My brother showed be the itemized bill.......drum roll.......$127k

Thank goodness he has very good coverage. My neighbor told me that HD coverage is great because you will never be sick again. Just ignore any symptoms and go to work.

 

____________________




Outside in the cold distance

A wildcat did growl

Two riders were approaching

And the wind began to howl

 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 8/9/2013 at 01:41 PM
quote:
They haven't thought through where the money comes from that businesses uses to pay taxes, or understand the immense unproductive costs associated with tax compliance. We're paying for it all out of out incomes, so why accept it as is?


Your argument ignores history. Both the rich and corporations paid far higher taxes in the twenties, thirties, forties, fifties, sixties and seventies. And we had a prosperous middle class.

quote:
Obviously you have no knowledge of a proposal that was years in the making and of which numerous books have been written. No wonder the rest of your comments are so ill informed.


I've got a book written about selling the Brooklyn Bridge. Want to buy it? The bridge, not the book.

The Fair tax does not have the support needed to be implemented. Not now. Not ever. It is not a thing. It does not exist. I wonder what tax rate the guys selling you the books pay?

 

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  posted on 8/9/2013 at 01:51 PM
quote:

The economy has NOT been getting better and companies know it. That is why expansion has not been happening. The business environment is very uncertain and the vast majority of private businesses, lumped in with giant corporations, do not benefit from the government sponsored largess. In my view neither Congress nor the administration has shown the first degree of understandiing that private business is the engine that builds prosperity. Instead we seem stuck in a class warfare zero sum game mentality where the administration thinks its the people against business (except of course those businesses that they like such as Solandra)


Corporate Profits as a Percentage of GDP:



Ummm...corporate profits are at record levels.

 

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  posted on 8/9/2013 at 05:32 PM
quote:
Your argument ignores history. Both the rich and corporations paid far higher taxes in the twenties, thirties, forties, fifties, sixties and seventies. And we had a prosperous middle class.

Oh, this old chestnut. Sigh.

Hold on to this ridiculous argument all you want, but it's a dead looser because a) it doesn't account for the vast deductability offered by the tax code in the past which insured no one paid those full rates, and b) it ignores the huge changes in global competition 40, 70, or 100 years ago vs today.

Lets talk about ignoring history. 60 years ago, what other manufacturing economies competed against us for global customers? Answer: virtually none, as they were all destroyed following WWII. And prior to WWII, the US was far and away the world's center of investment in productive enterprise because we offered the best combination of profit potential, productivity, infrastructure, resources, and low barriers to starting a business.

When you have no serious competitors and/or you're the center of worldwide investment, you don't have to worry too much about gov't tax rates. We don't live in that world anymore. One holding your beliefs should be wishing for the invention of a time machine, because going back to the past is the only way such thinking applies.

quote:
The Fair tax does not have the support needed to be implemented. Not now. Not ever. It is not a thing. It does not exist.

So by that standard, you would have said that the concept of woman's voting didn't exist prior to the 19th Amendment. And the idea of racial equality would not have existed for you before the 1964 Civil Rights Act. Assuming you're reasonably aligned with "progressive" ideas, you certainly give new meaning to the word.

quote:
Ummm...corporate profits are at record levels.

If the perspective is being against corporate profits, it potentially blinds us to better ideas. The truth is that the big corporations who have rigged the system so effectively for themselves in recent decades would be the ones most opposed to such changes as I mention. It would negate a huge cost advantage they have worked hard for, and place them in more competition with smaller firms. It would eliminate a vast area of political corruption at the same time.

[Edited on 8/9/2013 by Fujirich]

 

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  posted on 8/9/2013 at 05:56 PM
People can argue all day about what causes these inequalities among Americans, but the fact of the matter is that this is what capitalism is. A free capitalist society, by nature, creates social classes - wealth, middle class, and poverty. There is a finite amount of money circulating in our economy, and our laws allow a free-for-all for anyone to obtain any amount they can. This inevitably creates the 3 social classes, and ultimately the haves and the have-nots.

Poverty and social welfare programs will always exist in this type of system. The right-wing thought process that those on social programs should just "work harder" to get out of it is illogical. Using the standard pie analogy, there isn't enough for everyone to have a slice when the top 1% own most of the pie. Our society dictates that those without a slice must convince those who have slices to give them some, in exchange for some sort of service. If you fail to do so, then you are not being creative enough, nor are you trying hard enough, and therefore it's your fault for not having any.

Is it possible that some people with many slices simply aren't willing to give any up? Is it possible that they don't need anyone else's services because of their wealth, and therefore refuse to reinvest back into the middle class? I think it's very likely, and therein lies the problem.

The right-wing theory that eliminating taxes for corporations and the wealthy will create more jobs is just that....a theory. Giving them tax breaks COULD create jobs for the middle class.....if they feel like investing their money that way. Or they could keep the extra money for themselves. There is no organization to determine what happens with the extra money they save from tax breaks. It's a great theory, if in fact they do decide to reinvest it into the middle class with more job opportunities, but until there are laws that regulate where and how the money is used, giving them tax breaks is seemingly pointless and ineffective.

If people have a problem with our social welfare programs, then they actually have a problem with capitalism in general. I've heard that welfare isn't supposed to be a career choice, but rather a safety net and stepping stone. Ideally, that is true, and we would all benefit and prefer this. But expecting that to happen with everyone is to ignore basic human nature, which is perhaps the most significant variable in anything we do. And as mentioned earlier, it's nothing short of hypocritical to criticize those on welfare for relying on handouts, while corporations are asking for the same thing. Who is more immoral in this case? The millionaire making his fortune from tax breaks supported by his middle class workers, or the welfare recipient scraping to get by supported by the middle class workers?

The right-wing mindset is wrong. Gordon Gecco was wrong. Greed is not good. Greedy people don't take extra money and invest it into the middle class. Greedy people don't sacrafice minimal profits in order to decrease outsourcing and create more jobs for Americans. Greedy people don't create full-time positions with benefits when they can get away with offering part-time positions without benefits. Greedy people create monopolies on an industry and eliminate any possibilty of private family-owned business creation, while boasting low-cost products for consumers and low-income job opportunities. Greedy politicians accept bribes and kickbacks from corporations, at the expense of all hard-working Americans. Greedy CEO's offer them.



 

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  posted on 8/9/2013 at 09:56 PM
quote:
Poverty and social welfare programs will always exist in this type of system. The right-wing thought process that those on social programs should just "work harder" to get out of it is illogical. are you trying hard enough, and therefore it's your fault for not having any.



It's not the systems fault. The choices people make in their own lives have more to do with it than any other factor by far.

 

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  posted on 8/9/2013 at 11:35 PM
Right, starting out in poverty has nothing to do with it at all...................

 

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  posted on 8/10/2013 at 07:07 AM
quote:
quote:
Poverty and social welfare programs will always exist in this type of system. The right-wing thought process that those on social programs should just "work harder" to get out of it is illogical. are you trying hard enough, and therefore it's your fault for not having any.



It's not the systems fault. The choices people make in their own lives have more to do with it than any other factor by far.


Everything does not come down to choices. Environment & upbringing probably have much more to do with this than choices. For every inner city child born to a single parent poor family, what percentage with desires and who chooses to escape that environment & cycle actually succeed? Oh sure, there may be examples, but the far majority don't escape or break the pattern. What are the opportunities afforded that child as compared to a suburban child growing up in a stable & productive middle or upper class family? And which of these children has the better chance of succeeding in life?

So you can explain it away as choices all you want, but it's much more complicated than that.

 

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  posted on 8/10/2013 at 07:18 AM
I thought this thread was about the vagaries of boat ownership.

 

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