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Author: Subject: What I saw at the Gosnell trial

Universal Peach





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  posted on 4/29/2013 at 04:59 PM
I have been following this case from the beginning and while I am pro choice, I have to admit that what went on in this guys clinic is beyond belief. This article doesn't begin to describe the atrocities that took place. Witnesses testifying to some of the most inhumane sh*t I have ever heard...

I do have to admit, learning the specifics of what took place in that clinic has had a real effect on me and admittedly caused me to question my stance on this issue. In truth I simply don't know where I stand at the moment. I feel that we should at a minimum look at our over site procedures in these clinics and maybe revamp them. IDK

I do wonder why this isn't/ hasn't gotten the press that it should, IMO.

Just curious what other's, who have followed this case, thoughts are......


quote:
What I saw at the Gosnell trial

It is hard to decide the most appalling images to emerge Thursday at the murder trial of Philadelphia abortion doctor Kermit Gosnell. What happened in his abortion clinic is beyond any morbid Hollywood horror.

Tiny severed feet and hands stored in jars over a sink in the “procedure” room.
Digitalis injected into the stomachs of pregnant women to stop the beating hearts of their unborn babies so that they would be born dead.

Survivor babies whose spinal cords were severed, whose brains were removed with suction, whose tiny bodies were placed in a waste bin for disposal.

Then there is commonwealth exhibit C-147, depicting a large baby balled in the fetal position, bloody, stuffed in a bin. “Big enough to walk me home,” joked Gosnell when he saw the child’s remains, testified Ashly Baldwin, a clinic employee.

Gosnell, 72, is charged with killing seven born-alive babies and causing the death of Karnamaya Mongar, 41, an immigrant from Nepal who had sought an abortion at his West Philadelphia clinic. The clinic was busy, doing brisk cash business, catering not only to local women in West Philadelphia, but also women from the affluent surrounding suburbs of Bucks and Montgomery counties. Gosnell’s reputation for no-wait abortions was so well known, women would fly in from other states.

The prosecution alleges that Gosnell’s clinic regularly delivered live babies in the third trimester and killed them by severing their spinal cords or a “snip,” which according to testimony is what Gosnell called the procedure.

On Thursday, when I was there, Ashly Baldwin, 22, testified that she began working at the clinic when she was 15. Though unqualified and unlicensed as a medical technician, she began medicating women, even administering injections with a butterfly needle, under Gosnell’s instructions.

She testified that she saw digitalis injected, and explained that its purpose in abortions is to kill the unborn child so “it would come out dead.”

But in some of the most horrifying testimony of the day, Baldwin described how she saw babies born alive, with hearts beating rapidly, some of them moving and “flinching,” and some making baby sounds or “screeching.”

Until the FBI raided his clinic in 2010, he had operated for 30 years at 3801 Lancaster Ave., in the clinic he called the “Women’s Health Society.”

There was little healthy about it. Bloody floors, dirty equipment. The filthy gynecological bed with stirrups on which Karnamaya Mongar went into cardiac arrest from a drug reaction, and later died, sat in the middle of the courtroom, in front of the jury.

Tina Baldwin testified that Gosnell treated women differently, based on their race. White women “with money” were taken to an “immaculate” upstairs room where Gosnell treated them personally. Poor black, Latino and other women were kept in the clinic’s dingy, dirty downstairs rooms, and were usually treated by medically unqualified staff.

Tina Baldwin said she asked Gosnell about why he treated white women differently from the others. She recalled him saying, “Sorry, but that’s how it is.”

Thursday’s testimony had sensational details. The court staff, convinced it would attract journalists from around the nation, has set aside three rows of seats to accommodate up to 40 reporters. But all Thursday morning, as Ashly Baldwin testified to horror after horror, only one reporter was in the reserved seating — me.

Several local news outlets were there, scattered about the mostly empty courtroom. The Philadelphia Inquirer had a reporter there. NBC10 sent a blogger for its website. The AP stopped in, but the reporter told me that resources are thin and trial coverage is not gavel to gavel.

An hour into afternoon testimony, Jon Hurdle of The New York Times showed up, and a few minutes later was gone.

The lack of daily media coverage for the most sensational abortion trial angers pro-lifers who said there is a “media black out” on the Gosnell trial.

I asked one of the court staff why so few are interested.

“If you’re pro-choice, do you really want anybody to know about this,” he said, motioning to the filthy medical equipment set up in the courtroom.

It’s a good point. As saturation coverage of the Sandy Hook elementary school coverage has caused Americans to reconsider the limits of the Second Amendment, saturation coverage of Kermit Gosnell’s clinic would likely cause the same reconsideration of abortion rights.

The details are that horrifying.
J.D. Mullane can be reached at 215-949-5745 or at jmullane@phillyburbs.com. Twitter @jdmullane.

http://www.phillyburbs.com/blogs/news_columnists/jd_mullane/what-i-saw-at-t he-gosnell-trial/article_c15d6904-cd3c-55b7-970f-f8e510182daf.ht

 
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Zen Peach



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  posted on 4/29/2013 at 07:49 PM
There should be basic standard of cleanliness that are adhered to in any medical facility. It should be common sense that the floors be cleared with anti-septic, anti-microbial solution. Instruments must always be autoclaved and there should be enough gloves that they are changed before a procedure and afterwards, and they MUST do the surgical scrub of their hands for at least 2 minutes before a procedure. They must also wash their hands after examining each patient.

The proper way to wash your hands is to hold them facing down rather than just sideways so the dirty water will go down and not remain on your forearms. The sinks should have foot pedals to start the water so no one is contaminating the on and off knobs. In the regular operating rooms there is triple filtered air, that is expensive but at least the vents in the room should have their filters changed on a regular basis. Those attending the procedures should not be walking around in just the same set of scrubs all day. They should put on a surgical gown, via sterile procedures before any surgical procedure and them discard that when done.

It is called infection control techniques and most Dr.'s office don't take the time to train their staff.

I think in this case the Dr. did not believe he was doing wrong by performing the abortions. The women wanted to get rid of the child they were carrying, and the Dr.'s do not want a child to be born into a world and have a miserable life, such as the Mother not being able to provide for it, creating struggle on herself and the child for 18 or more years. To that way of thinking it is an act of mercy to relieve her of her problem.

My own view is the procedure is wrong because you are terminating life. They could put the child up for adoption, though many may not be able to emotionally go thru having the child and giving it up later on.

Should it be outlawed? Murder is already illegal to argue semantics that life does not begin at conception, it's not a person yet entitled to rights because it is not viable outside the body etc. etc. is just analysis paralysis that the lawyers engage in.

Some people know what is right and what is not, the others will never see it your way anyway, there will be more harm to more people if the procedures are outlawed because women will still seek them illegally and become prey to the back alley black market butchers.

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 4/29/2013 at 08:02 PM

 

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  posted on 4/30/2013 at 12:04 PM
I find it to be disgusting. The virtual silence around the case is just as disgusting. GMA is more than willing to rehash the Casey Anthony trial a zillion times, but they still have not covererd this one.

I thought Roe v Wade was suppose to stop this sort of "back room" operation. Another fine example of gov't protecting its people. Oh wait, babies aren't people....unless they are massacred by a madman with a gun.

 

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  posted on 4/30/2013 at 12:10 PM
quote:
I do wonder why this isn't/ hasn't gotten the press that it should, IMO.


Because it doesn't fit with the mantra of : 'if we can save just one child, then we surely have an obligation to try". That only applies when kids are killed by guns. Cut one's neck with a scisssor and throw it in a toilet bowl...ah, we don't need to cover that.

 

Universal Peach



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  posted on 4/30/2013 at 01:13 PM
It went to the jury around noon today so now it's wait and see.....
 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 5/1/2013 at 11:48 AM
This touches the raw nerve of abortion politics in this country. Because the later time abortions often end up with delivery in this manner, (even if without the depravity of Gosnell and his people) many who are otherwise pro-choice, oppose late term abortion which is NOT covered under Roe v. Wade and could be banned (and I would think in some states is.) Planned Parenthood and other pro-choice organizations have taken a stand (in some ways similar to the NRA) that ANY restrictions on abortion will create a slippery slope leading straight to the back alley. This is the reason for the large degree of media silence in my opinion. Because of the fear that any recognition of this issue will lead to an erosion of support for the legality of late term abortions, even those done under better conditions that the Gosnell case.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 5/3/2013 at 09:48 PM
You all know where I stand on the issue of choice but I'll be right up front with everyone saying this man is an abomination and deserves everything the law throws at him. But his case highlights two things....first, the city didn't inspect the clinic for well over ten years and second, he was in one of the more poor neighborhoods where desperate women who couldn't afford to go to a clean, safe clinic opted to go instead. The more women are being denied services at safe clinics the more people like this will start to spring up. As the saying goes, Roe v Wade wasn't the beginning of abortions it was the end of women dying from them. The legislation that's going on across the country is going to push women back into the back alleys with unregulated hacks like Gosnell.

 

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  posted on 5/4/2013 at 09:13 AM
"Planned Parenthood and other pro-choice organizations have taken a stand (in some ways similar to the NRA) that ANY restrictions on abortion will create a slippery slope leading straight to the back alley."


Good comparison. This is part of our modern conception of freedom.

 

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  posted on 5/4/2013 at 10:51 AM
quote:
You all know where I stand on the issue of choice but I'll be right up front with everyone saying this man is an abomination and deserves everything the law throws at him. But his case highlights two things....first, the city didn't inspect the clinic for well over ten years and second, he was in one of the more poor neighborhoods where desperate women who couldn't afford to go to a clean, safe clinic opted to go instead. The more women are being denied services at safe clinics the more people like this will start to spring up. As the saying goes, Roe v Wade wasn't the beginning of abortions it was the end of women dying from them. The legislation that's going on across the country is going to push women back into the back alleys with unregulated hacks like Gosnell.


X2

Over the last several years several hundred pieces of legislation have been introduced in states to do an end run around Roe v Wade. The states run by GOP legislatures & governors have done just about everything possible to eliminate choice. Take a good look at what's been going in in Mississippi, North Dakota, and Virginia. These states are amongst the worst, but other states are following their leads. Personhood, elimination of choice as early as 6 weeks, parking lot mandates, door awning standards, janitor closet sizes, vaginal probes, etc., etc. Let's face it - the goal is total elimination of choice and is disguised as protecting womens' health. Where is the outcry over the overreaching government, or does that only apply to the 2nd Amendment? And let me qualify that it really doesn't matter whether it's a federal or state issue.

 

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  posted on 5/4/2013 at 11:19 AM
Here's a sobering, 21-minute documentary: http://3801lancaster.com/

I've been against abortion for decades, not just because I'm a Christian. I'm convinced that human life begins at conception (and there's sound medical evidence to back this up), and that therefore, abortion is murder. Pro-choice = pro-death = pro murder.

Here are a few websites to check:

http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html

http://prolifephysicians.org/lifebegins.htm

http://fallibleblogma.com/index.php/when-does-science-say-human-life-begins /

http://www.westchesterinstitute.net/images/wi_whitepaper_life_print.pdf

http://www.epm.org/resources/2010/Jan/29/when-does-each-human-life-begin-an swer-science/

I'm aware that there are other sites that claim something different. But I think these are sites that make compelling arguments for the idea that human life begins at conception.

I don't know how many abortion clinics there are in the U.S. but I'm certain that Gosnell's isn't the only one that looks like a scene from Jeffrey Dahmer's apartment. I hope that this alerts Americans to the near certainty that there are many, many Gosnells out there. God willing, this could even lead to a growing examination of these "clinics" leading in turn to more being shut down, and more butchers receiving justice.

To paraphrase John Lennon, "Imagine a world with no abortion".

Billastro

 

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  posted on 5/4/2013 at 12:27 PM
quote:


I've been against abortion for decades, not just because I'm a Christian. I'm convinced that human life begins at conception (and there's sound medical evidence to back this up), and that therefore, abortion is murder. Pro-choice = pro-death = pro murder.




You're certainly entitled to your opinion and conclusions as are others who believe pro-choice = pro-choice and nothing more. No personal religious beliefs nor web site nor video links will ever settle this issue.

Let those who are anti choice move to the front of the line and offer to adopt. The energy & $ spent by the anti choice movement could be much more productive and have a far greater positive impact upon society by adopting as opposed to attempting to eliminate a woman's right to choose. Choice is a very personal issue and that privacy should not be invaded by legislators and individuals who know nothing about the woman's pregnancy, health, life situation, and socioeconomic condition.

 

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  posted on 5/4/2013 at 02:04 PM
Brilliant post Martin.
 

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  posted on 5/4/2013 at 03:41 PM
quote:
"Planned Parenthood and other pro-choice organizations have taken a stand (in some ways similar to the NRA) that ANY restrictions on abortion will create a slippery slope leading straight to the back alley."


Good comparison. This is part of our modern conception of freedom.


There are already restrictions through out the country on abortion. In fact Roe v. Wade only said a woman could legally get an abortion until the fetus was viable. It wasn't a free ride to terminate a pregnancy at any time for any reason. Now there are even more restrictions being placed on a woman who seeks the clinc's services. A twenty four hour waiting period, mandatory counseling that includes, in some places, false information that abortion causes breast cancer, forced ultra sounds and ov course, with the closing of a number of clinics, the problem of going to a clinic in the first place.

As for being against abortion....my answer is this....if you're a woman and you don't believe in abortion, don't have one. If you're a man who doesn't believe in abortion, don't get someone pregnant if you're not ready to be a father. Beats me how some of the most adamant opposition to abortion people are also against access to birth control which is the best way to prevent it.

 

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  posted on 5/4/2013 at 06:00 PM
Consider that abortion often/usually involves dismembering a living being while still in the womb. Different authorities place the onset of sensing pain at different points in gestation and I'm not going to go browsing for citations.

I've seen photos of tiny human limbs and other body parts and they're horrifying. If someone dismembered a living kitten or puppy (going for the youth factor), they'd wind up in jail. But dismembering a living human being is obviously acceptable to many. I think it's barbaric, worse than any punishment (cutting off hands, beheading and posting the videos) inflicted by any group you can think of.

This is just my view, and I know it'll raise hackles, but I consider abortion to be the most morally bankrupt action in existence, and that nobody who approves it has any ground to stand on as far as talking about right and wrong.

Billastro

[Edited on 5/5/2013 by Billastro]

 

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  posted on 5/4/2013 at 06:37 PM
quote:
I've been against abortion for decades, not just because I'm a Christian. I'm convinced that human life begins at conception (and there's sound medical evidence to back this up), and that therefore, abortion is murder. Pro-choice = pro-death = pro murder.
quote:
Let those who are anti choice move to the front of the line and offer to adopt. The energy & $ spent by the anti choice movement could be much more productive and have a far greater positive impact upon society by adopting as opposed to attempting to eliminate a woman's right to choose.
I agree with some of what you say but not all.

I agree that adoption is a much better alternative to abortion. It will take education more than legislation to bring this about.

However, I don't agree with this part at all:
quote:
Choice is a very personal issue and that privacy should not be invaded by legislators and individuals who know nothing about the woman's pregnancy, health, life situation, and socioeconomic condition.
Whether abortion is legal, I think that morally it's wrong, and that it really does equal murder.

Why should privacy be restricted to pregnant women? How about the whole family, the next step up from the individual?

In 1996 I testified against a serial pedophile, helping put him in prison for more than 26 years. If privacy had applied, then by your reasoning it presumably wouldn't have been a matter for anyone to intervene. After all, the parent-child relationship is very private, right?

Not only that, but there are people (such as NAMBLA) who have been promoting man-boy sex for years. Who's to say they aren't just a far-seeing organization?

Once in a while we read about a family meth-producing (or other drug) business. Should privacy apply because of their life conditions and socioeconomic factors (i.e., they're terminally broke)?

Where does it end?

Billastro

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 5/4/2013 at 11:13 PM
I've never tried to talk anyone who was against abortion into taking a pro-choice position and for the life of me I don't know where some sanctimonious people get off trying to ram their beliefs down the throat of those who don't believe the way they do. I don't happen to believe that before viability, a fetus is anything more than the house being built for the soul so I don't see abortion as murder or torture or any of the other things some of the anti-choice people believe. Where do you get the right to make decisions about what is right or wrong for any other human being? If you think abortion is murder....don't have one or put a woman in a postition where she has to contemplate having one. But your authority to make decisions for other women is non-existant. As for nobody who approves it has any ground to stand on as far as talking about right and wrong piss off.

 

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  posted on 5/5/2013 at 08:10 AM
quote:
I've never tried to talk anyone who was against abortion into taking a pro-choice position and for the life of me I don't know where some sanctimonious people get off trying to ram their beliefs down the throat of those who don't believe the way they do.
It's not sanctimonious, it's expressing an opinion based on a moral compass. When you write this, you show a sanctimoniousness that's just as strong as the kind you condemn in others.
quote:
I don't happen to believe that before viability, a fetus is anything more than the house being built for the soul so I don't see abortion as murder or torture or any of the other things some of the anti-choice people believe.
And I'll bet a quarter you just made this up to support your own beliefs, kind of a Church of BigAnn. Scientifically there's substantial agreement that human life begins at conception, but apparently you claim greater authority than the scientific/medical majority.
quote:
Where do you get the right to make decisions about what is right or wrong for any other human being?
From the moral compass I choose to follow, from God's word. Where do you get yours?
quote:
If you think abortion is murder....don't have one or put a woman in a postition where she has to contemplate having one.
This is so shallow that I struggle to understand how anyone can think like this.

"If you don't like slavery, don't own slaves"
"If you don't like theft, don't steal"
And so on.

But God forbid you should tell anyone else that their actions are wrong.

Two statements: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (No certain source; FFI: http://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/12/04/good-men-do/

"When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways." (1 Corinthians 13:11)
quote:
But your authority to make decisions for other women is non-existant.
I don't claim authority, but I do rely on it to guide me. Don't shoot the messenger; take it up with God, who said “You shall not murder." (Exodus 20:13)
quote:
As for nobody who approves it has any ground to stand on as far as talking about right and wrong piss off.
All I see here is a lot of emotion and rationalization. You can't or won't support your opinion with anything but a BigAnn-centered worldview. I find this frightening. You're doing exactly the same thing to me that offends you when you claim I do it to others. There's a word for this; can you figure out what it is?

Billastro



[Edited on 5/5/2013 by Billastro]

 

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  posted on 5/5/2013 at 11:18 AM
Billastro, using God to make your point is foolish since it is only a theoretical belief. It is not fact nor real. You shouldn't apply a mythological belief/concept to a real life situation like abortion. It's the same as the NRA saying that Americans should "pray" for the victims instead of taking real-life actions to prevent mass murders.

Being pro-life, however, is not foolish at all, and very admirable. I happen to be pro-choice, but I cannot fault someone who is pro-life.

The bottom line is that both men and women are equally as responsible for preventing pregnancy in the first place unless they are 100% committed and ready to raise a child. Practicing safe casual sex is the best method for avoiding abortion, yet the religious right like yourself want to preach against contraception, and preach abstinence. I will use the word "foolish" again for this thought process. Human beings are biologically programmed to have sex starting in the teen years, and we should not be faulted for the way our bodies are programmed. Lust is the primary basic human function, and the reason civilization has prevailed. For some religious kook (not you personally) to suggest we repress our most natural functions is part of the problem.

In a perfect world, teens would have perfectly protected safe sex. But lets face it, our world is far from perfect, and pregnancies occur constantly in less than ideal situations. So the question is, how do we handle it? We're not in a period of time to prevent it, so we have to address how to handle it. There aren't enough families looking to adopt, so do we create a better foster program? Do we force the child to be born to the biological teen mother who cannot care for her own self let alone a child? Do we force a woman to give birth who was raped, and then force that child to live in a foster home? Children born into these scenarios are often subjected to severe abuse. Abusive cycles are passed down from generation to generation, leading to a dysfunctional society. Whether they are fostered, adopted, or raised by a single parent, it's the tax payers who share the financial and social burdens.

I'm open to hearing other solutions if you have them. Terminating a pregnancy in the 1st 6 weeks, when the fetus is microscopic or barely visible to the human eye, is the best option in my opinion.

I bet all people agree that abortion in the 3rd tri-mester should be banned and considered murder. There's no justification for this, as the woman should've known about her pregnancy right away, and made a decision way sooner. I'd support a law that requires abortion to be done within the first 9 weeks.


[Edited on 5/5/2013 by BoytonBrother]

 

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  posted on 5/5/2013 at 11:25 AM
quote:
Billastro, using God to make your point is foolish since it is only a theoretical belief. It is not fact nor real. You shouldn't apply a mythological belief/concept to a real life situation like abortion. It's the same as the NRA saying that Americans should "pray" for the victims instead of taking real-life actions to prevent mass murders.



Then why would Obama close out a speech saying, "God bless Planned Parenthood." Huh?

Now, that comment in itself is somewhat of a head-shaker. He's free to make that request of course, but don't count on it happening.

 

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  posted on 5/5/2013 at 11:33 AM
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----
Billastro, using God to make your point is foolish since it is only a theoretical belief. It is not fact nor real. You shouldn't apply a mythological belief/concept to a real life situation like abortion. It's the same as the NRA saying that Americans should "pray" for the victims instead of taking real-life actions to prevent mass murders.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----


Then why would Obama close out a speech saying, "God bless Planned Parenthood." Huh?

Now, that comment in itself is somewhat of a head-shaker. He's free to make that request of course, but don't count on it happening.


I agree. It was a dumb thing to say. He shouldn't have mentioned God when talking about this. It doesn't change anything about what I wrote.

 

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  posted on 5/5/2013 at 01:11 PM
Billastro is a perfect example of someone who believes something and therefore everyone else needs to believe that way also or they're not on the moral path to salvation or some other similar crap. I really don't care what you believe, Bill, just keep your religion and your self righteousness to yourself. As I said, I've never tried to tell someone who is anti-choice they need to change their way of thinking but I live an a state that has a lot of uptight pencil neck **** s passing laws based on their bible thumping beliefs without a single thought as to what it's going to mean to the state, the women or the children who will be born. I stand outside a women's clinic every week and watch the anti-choice fanatics yell at women and try to shame them for going into the clinic for any reason....including yearly check ups and birth control. One day a woman who desperately wanted her child had to go to the clinic because the fetus had died and her body hadn't expelled it. On that day a bus load of kids stood across the street and sang happy birthday dead baby. Or how about the woman who came in after years of fertility treatments with twins who had such serious defects they weren't going to survive even up to birth. She cried the whole time while people like yourself..you know...on the moral high ground....shouted and called her murderer and baby killer as she entered the clinic. You don't know what you're talking about and I think you need to shut the hell up. Your beliefs are fine...I understand them and contrary to what you think, we have volunteers who are 'pro-life' but recognize each woman's right to choose what's best for her health. You, on the other hand, seem to just want to be smug in your righteousness. Get real.

[Edited on 5/5/2013 by bigann]

 

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  posted on 5/5/2013 at 01:14 PM
http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/01/18/1467591/alabamas-abortion-clinic -escorts/

 

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  posted on 5/5/2013 at 02:31 PM
quote:
Billastro is a perfect example of someone who believes something and therefore everyone else needs to believe that way also or they're not on the moral path to salvation or some other similar crap. I really don't care what you believe, Bill, just keep your religion and your self righteousness to yourself. As I said, I've never tried to tell someone who is anti-choice they need to change their way of thinking but I live an a state that has a lot of uptight pencil neck **** s passing laws based on their bible thumping beliefs without a single thought as to what it's going to mean to the state, the women or the children who will be born. I stand outside a women's clinic every week and watch the anti-choice fanatics yell at women and try to shame them for going into the clinic for any reason....including yearly check ups and birth control. One day a woman who desperately wanted her child had to go to the clinic because the fetus had died and her body hadn't expelled it. On that day a bus load of kids stood across the street and sang happy birthday dead baby. Or how about the woman who came in after years of fertility treatments with twins who had such serious defects they weren't going to survive even up to birth. She cried the whole time while people like yourself..you know...on the moral high ground....shouted and called her murderer and baby killer as she entered the clinic. You don't know what you're talking about and I think you need to shut the hell up. Your beliefs are fine...I understand them and contrary to what you think, we have volunteers who are 'pro-life' but recognize each woman's right to choose what's best for her health. You, on the other hand, seem to just want to be smug in your righteousness. Get real.

[Edited on 5/5/2013 by bigann]


Ann, I haven't seen anything that Billastro has written that says you have to believe as he does, only that it's his opinion and what he bases it on.

 

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  posted on 5/5/2013 at 02:46 PM
quote:
Oh wait, babies aren't people....


Unfortunately, this is the heart and soul of the Abortion debate. My belief is that Gubmint has NO business in your business until a child is born. Yes, I am "Pro-Choice"..and as disgusting as some of us may find the reported behaviors in this case to be, ultimately, abortion is between a woman and her conscience.

Just like guns, don't like them?...Don't own one.

Think Abortion is wrong?...Don't have one.

More laws and restrictions are not the answer; Abortion and guns are similar in this respect, those who wish one bad enough are going to find a way.

 

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