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Author: Subject: Some definitions on firearms

World Class Peach





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  posted on 12/18/2012 at 10:36 AM
To clear up misconceptions, and misinformation, of firearm types being thrown around, I thought I would give some simple definitions to some of the "buzzwords" people are hearing.

Assault Weapons--these are military grade firearms used by the armed forces. They are fully automatic, and are made to be reliable in almost any type weather or conditions. (Note: The M-16 is now made to fire a 3 round burst per pull.) These are not available on the civilian market unless the purchaser has a valid FFL3.

Semi-Auto-fires one round per pull of the trigger, the action then pulls a new round from the magazine and loads it in the chamber, ready for the next pull on the trigger. A simpler definition: You load a round in the chamber, you pull the trigger, the round fires, the action (can be gas activated, blow back, or recoil) causes the bolt or slide to go backwards, the extractor grabs the case of the cartridge and pulls it backwards out of the chamber, the ejector then throws the empty cartridge out of the gun as the bolt or slide reaches the end of it's backward motion, the bolt or slide then pushes a new cartridge into the chamber ready to fire, then you must pull the trigger again to start the process again. Basically, it's the same thing as a single shot firearm except that the firearm loads the cartridge instead of you having to do it manually.

Full Auto-does the same thing as semi-auto does, just at a faster rate, and will continue to fire as long as you hold down the trigger or you empty the magazine. Again, not available on the civilian market unless you hold an FFL3.

Single shot-The cartridge is loaded one at a time, fired, ejected by operating the bolt, a new cartridge is loaded by hand, and then repeated.

High Velocity-Every rifle cartridge made is "High Velocity" except for ones called "sub-sonic" (mostly .22 caliber rimfire) and ones made for police departments for use in dense urban areas. Few pistol or revolver cartridges can be classified as high velocity since most do not exceed the speed of sound (1126 feet per second)

High capacity magazines-Depends on which type firearm you have. For sporting reasons if you have a magazine of more than two shells for your shotgun, you have a "high capacity magazine". I have pistols that have magazine capacity from five rounds to 14 rounds, just depending upon the frame size of the pistol.
Rifles with a detachable magazine can have up to 100 rounds (beta mags for AR type rifles), or as few as 5.
There are "extended magazines" for pistols that will hold more rounds than the manufacturer made magazines, but they aren't as reliable.

Pistol-commonly referred to as a semi-auto handgun. These have a slide that goes backward after firing that reloads the chamber as the slide goes forward.

Revolvers-these have a large circular mechanism that turns as you either cock the hammer or pull the trigger which holds the cartridges. They can hold from 5 rounds up to 9 rounds depending on the caliber of the cartridge.

FFL3-This is a Class 3 Federal Firearms License. To obtain one you must under go an FBI background check, fingerprinting, and have a lot of money for registration costs. The license application alone cost a non-refundable $200.
The license, after approval can run $3,000, and each purchase of a Type II firearm carries a $200 fee and registration.
Once you get your FFL3 you can purchase Class 3 (full auto) firearms and again, you'd better have a lot of money. The ones on the market are rare and costly.

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 12/18/2012 at 11:41 AM
Good primer Jerry - nicely done.

One possible addition to the class-III options - a citizen can purchase a class-III weapon by establishing a special gun trust (need a lawyer's help), or by purchasing under a corporation name to which they have ownership. I'm sketchy on all the details of the corporate purchase, but the trust angle lets one apply to the ATF for purchase (the $200 you reference), wait while they do a serious background check, and when passed purchase your weapon. No need to become FFL licensed.

There's a short-barreled rifle I'd like to get that's class-III (not fully auto though) and I'm considering the trust route.

 

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  posted on 12/18/2012 at 01:45 PM
Okay...keep your guns. I suggest limiting the number of rounds that can be loaded in clips or 'barrels'. No reason anyone needs a clip that can shoot more than ten rounds at a time.

 

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World Class Peach



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  posted on 12/18/2012 at 01:53 PM
quote:
Okay...keep your guns. I suggest limiting the number of rounds that can be loaded in clips or 'barrels'. No reason anyone needs a clip that can shoot more than ten rounds at a time.


I don't know of any clips that can shoot ten, or more rounds at a time.

 

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World Class Peach



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  posted on 12/18/2012 at 01:54 PM
quote:
Good primer Jerry - nicely done.

One possible addition to the class-III options - a citizen can purchase a class-III weapon by establishing a special gun trust (need a lawyer's help), or by purchasing under a corporation name to which they have ownership. I'm sketchy on all the details of the corporate purchase, but the trust angle lets one apply to the ATF for purchase (the $200 you reference), wait while they do a serious background check, and when passed purchase your weapon. No need to become FFL licensed.

There's a short-barreled rifle I'd like to get that's class-III (not fully auto though) and I'm considering the trust route.


I didn't include that because I was going for the individual purchase, but very good point indeed.

 

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Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 12/18/2012 at 01:56 PM
These changes make it illegal to own in CT. Courtesy of the NYTimes.

 

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  posted on 12/18/2012 at 01:59 PM
quote:
quote:
Okay...keep your guns. I suggest limiting the number of rounds that can be loaded in clips or 'barrels'. No reason anyone needs a clip that can shoot more than ten rounds at a time.


I don't know of any clips that can shoot ten, or more rounds at a time.


Pardon me....magazine:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2012/12/the_gun_g lossary_definitions_of_firearm_lingo_and_types_of_weapons.html

 

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World Class Peach



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  posted on 12/18/2012 at 02:02 PM
You can take many standard .22 semi-auto rifles and change the stock, forearm, and magazine type to make it
look just like that.
And it doesn't change how often it fires or how powerful the round is.

 

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Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 12/18/2012 at 02:17 PM
quote:
You can take many standard .22 semi-auto rifles and change the stock, forearm, and magazine type to make it
look just like that.
And it doesn't change how often it fires or how powerful the round is.


Are the shells for these .223 weapons are more lethal than a standard .22 shell casing. I thought a .22 bullet was pretty weak?

 

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World Class Peach



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  posted on 12/18/2012 at 02:43 PM
quote:
quote:
You can take many standard .22 semi-auto rifles and change the stock, forearm, and magazine type to make it
look just like that.
And it doesn't change how often it fires or how powerful the round is.


Are the shells for these .223 weapons are more lethal than a standard .22 shell casing. I thought a .22 bullet was pretty weak?



Yes they are more powerful. But I was pointing out that you could build one of described "assault rifles" from almost any semi-auto rifle, including some air rifles.
It's just an addition of a few after market pieces, and it becomes an "assault rifle".
Just because it looks military doesn't make it any more powerful or fire quicker.

 

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True Peach



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  posted on 12/18/2012 at 02:52 PM
These guns should be able to fire no more than a few bullets at a time maybe 5 or 6. If those who claim these guns can be used for hunting can't bag a deer in less than 5 or 6 shots then they have a lousy aim and should find a new hobby.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 12/18/2012 at 02:54 PM
quote:
These guns should be able to fire no more than a few bullets at a time maybe 5 or 6. If those who claim these guns can be used for hunting can't bag a deer in less than 5 or 6 shots then they have a lousy aim and should find a new hobby.


Exactly!

 

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  posted on 12/18/2012 at 03:02 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
Okay...keep your guns. I suggest limiting the number of rounds that can be loaded in clips or 'barrels'. No reason anyone needs a clip that can shoot more than ten rounds at a time.


I don't know of any clips that can shoot ten, or more rounds at a time.


Pardon me....magazine:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2012/12/the_gun_g lossary_definitions_of_firearm_lingo_and_types_of_weapons.html


The words clip and magazine are interchangeable, most people recognize what they are and you wouldn't get any argument from me about the use.
Problem is that I still don't know of clips or magazines that shoot any rounds, much less ten at a time.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 12/18/2012 at 04:26 PM
quote:
These guns should be able to fire no more than a few bullets at a time maybe 5 or 6. If those who claim these guns can be used for hunting can't bag a deer in less than 5 or 6 shots then they have a lousy aim and should find a new hobby.


Try hunting feral pigs.

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 12/18/2012 at 04:50 PM
quote:
These guns should be able to fire no more than a few bullets at a time maybe 5 or 6. If those who claim these guns can be used for hunting can't bag a deer in less than 5 or 6 shots then they have a lousy aim and should find a new hobby.

I realize that such a limit sounds perfectly reasonable to most people who haven't considered the extent and possibilities of using a gun to defend oneself or one's family. It is not generally a mindset that most people engage in. But 5-6 rounds is a very thin defense if and when you need it in a critical situation.

Like you, I don't buy the hunters angle. They clearly don't need high round counts.

I hope to never use my weapon in a crisis, but I refuse to be unprepared if the necessity arises. I respect that many don't want to prepare themselves in the same way, but I expect comparable understanding from them about my decision. And if that need ever arises, I want as many options on my side as possible. That includes aligning my ability to respond with magazine round counts that are at least equal to what the bad guys might have. In most common handguns (9mm, .40, .45) that means 10 to 20 rounds, with a carbine that means 30 rounds.

This isn't about hunting. And only kooks think that an armed response will overcome our govt if they want to impose martial law. But law enforcement can't possibly protect everyone, everywhere. And I think we're facing the likelihood that their abilities will shrink because of declining public budgets. Further, I think it's quite possible that we're headed for serious civil unrest when our economy crashes due to currency mismanagement. I respect those who disagree with those ideas, but that disagreement shouldn't extend to restricting my reasonable options in preparing as I wish.

 

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World Class Peach



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  posted on 12/18/2012 at 04:56 PM
quote:
quote:
These guns should be able to fire no more than a few bullets at a time maybe 5 or 6. If those who claim these guns can be used for hunting can't bag a deer in less than 5 or 6 shots then they have a lousy aim and should find a new hobby.


Exactly!


So you would restrict a police officer responding to a "shots fired" situation to 5 or 6 rounds?

 

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World Class Peach



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  posted on 12/18/2012 at 04:59 PM
God post Fuji.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 12/18/2012 at 05:04 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
These guns should be able to fire no more than a few bullets at a time maybe 5 or 6. If those who claim these guns can be used for hunting can't bag a deer in less than 5 or 6 shots then they have a lousy aim and should find a new hobby.


Exactly!


So you would restrict a police officer responding to a "shots fired" situation to 5 or 6 rounds?


That's a bogus argument. No one has mentioned limiting the weapons a police officer carries.

 

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  posted on 12/18/2012 at 05:11 PM
quote:
quote:
These guns should be able to fire no more than a few bullets at a time maybe 5 or 6. If those who claim these guns can be used for hunting can't bag a deer in less than 5 or 6 shots then they have a lousy aim and should find a new hobby.

I realize that such a limit sounds perfectly reasonable to most people who haven't considered the extent and possibilities of using a gun to defend oneself or one's family. It is not generally a mindset that most people engage in. But 5-6 rounds is a very thin defense if and when you need it in a critical situation.

Like you, I don't buy the hunters angle. They clearly don't need high round counts.

I hope to never use my weapon in a crisis, but I refuse to be unprepared if the necessity arises. I respect that many don't want to prepare themselves in the same way, but I expect comparable understanding from them about my decision. And if that need ever arises, I want as many options on my side as possible. That includes aligning my ability to respond with magazine round counts that are at least equal to what the bad guys might have. In most common handguns (9mm, .40, .45) that means 10 to 20 rounds, with a carbine that means 30 rounds.

This isn't about hunting. And only kooks think that an armed response will overcome our govt if they want to impose martial law. But law enforcement can't possibly protect everyone, everywhere. And I think we're facing the likelihood that their abilities will shrink because of declining public budgets. Further, I think it's quite possible that we're headed for serious civil unrest when our economy crashes due to currency mismanagement. I respect those who disagree with those ideas, but that disagreement shouldn't extend to restricting my reasonable options in preparing as I wish.


I agree with most of this. However, it seems that those who are wishing to discuss just what type and level of weapon should be available to the public are being labeled as completely anti-gun in support of eliminating all guns. That just isn't true.

 

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  posted on 12/18/2012 at 05:15 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
These guns should be able to fire no more than a few bullets at a time maybe 5 or 6. If those who claim these guns can be used for hunting can't bag a deer in less than 5 or 6 shots then they have a lousy aim and should find a new hobby.


Exactly!


So you would restrict a police officer responding to a "shots fired" situation to 5 or 6 rounds?


Who said anything about cops????? Trained cops and military pesonel I have no problem with carrying these types of weapons and ammo clips. There is no reason for a regular citizen to own such high powered weaponry and certainly no need for 30 round or more ammo clips. Keep allowing these types of weapons and clips to be owned by anyone who wants them and our country will continue to become more and more of a dangerous place. In time without change we will be no different than a third world middle east country when it comes to violence. We are on our way with almost a gun for every citizen in this country.

 

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  posted on 12/18/2012 at 05:23 PM
quote:
quote:
These guns should be able to fire no more than a few bullets at a time maybe 5 or 6. If those who claim these guns can be used for hunting can't bag a deer in less than 5 or 6 shots then they have a lousy aim and should find a new hobby.

I realize that such a limit sounds perfectly reasonable to most people who haven't considered the extent and possibilities of using a gun to defend oneself or one's family. It is not generally a mindset that most people engage in. But 5-6 rounds is a very thin defense if and when you need it in a critical situation.

Like you, I don't buy the hunters angle. They clearly don't need high round counts.

I hope to never use my weapon in a crisis, but I refuse to be unprepared if the necessity arises. I respect that many don't want to prepare themselves in the same way, but I expect comparable understanding from them about my decision. And if that need ever arises, I want as many options on my side as possible. That includes aligning my ability to respond with magazine round counts that are at least equal to what the bad guys might have. In most common handguns (9mm, .40, .45) that means 10 to 20 rounds, with a carbine that means 30 rounds.

This isn't about hunting. And only kooks think that an armed response will overcome our govt if they want to impose martial law. But law enforcement can't possibly protect everyone, everywhere. And I think we're facing the likelihood that their abilities will shrink because of declining public budgets. Further, I think it's quite possible that we're headed for serious civil unrest when our economy crashes due to currency mismanagement. I respect those who disagree with those ideas, but that disagreement shouldn't extend to restricting my reasonable options in preparing as I wish.


Well, if that is how you feel and many others feel than we will just have to accept that shootings like the one last week will become the norm in this country. The only thing I can see that would help if nothing else is done is to arm teachers, administrators, and maybe even the children. If we are gonna live in a wild west gun loving society then maybe everyone should be packing and maybe little children should be trained and armed from a young age. I think that sounds ridiculous as I am sure many others do but if nothing else is done to get rid of such weapons than these things will continue to happen more and more and more and the United States of America will not be known as the greatest country in the world anymore. It will just be considered the most dangerous and violent of the civilized countries in this world.

 

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World Class Peach



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  posted on 12/18/2012 at 06:13 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
These guns should be able to fire no more than a few bullets at a time maybe 5 or 6. If those who claim these guns can be used for hunting can't bag a deer in less than 5 or 6 shots then they have a lousy aim and should find a new hobby.


Exactly!


So you would restrict a police officer responding to a "shots fired" situation to 5 or 6 rounds?


That's a bogus argument. No one has mentioned limiting the weapons a police officer carries.


Since most police officers also carry and use AR-15s and carry handguns like Glocks, Springield Arms XD, and Barrettas, I think it's a relative question.

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 12/18/2012 at 06:35 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
These guns should be able to fire no more than a few bullets at a time maybe 5 or 6. If those who claim these guns can be used for hunting can't bag a deer in less than 5 or 6 shots then they have a lousy aim and should find a new hobby.

I realize that such a limit sounds perfectly reasonable to most people who haven't considered the extent and possibilities of using a gun to defend oneself or one's family. It is not generally a mindset that most people engage in. But 5-6 rounds is a very thin defense if and when you need it in a critical situation.

Like you, I don't buy the hunters angle. They clearly don't need high round counts.

I hope to never use my weapon in a crisis, but I refuse to be unprepared if the necessity arises. I respect that many don't want to prepare themselves in the same way, but I expect comparable understanding from them about my decision. And if that need ever arises, I want as many options on my side as possible. That includes aligning my ability to respond with magazine round counts that are at least equal to what the bad guys might have. In most common handguns (9mm, .40, .45) that means 10 to 20 rounds, with a carbine that means 30 rounds.

This isn't about hunting. And only kooks think that an armed response will overcome our govt if they want to impose martial law. But law enforcement can't possibly protect everyone, everywhere. And I think we're facing the likelihood that their abilities will shrink because of declining public budgets. Further, I think it's quite possible that we're headed for serious civil unrest when our economy crashes due to currency mismanagement. I respect those who disagree with those ideas, but that disagreement shouldn't extend to restricting my reasonable options in preparing as I wish.

Well, if that is how you feel and many others feel than we will just have to accept that shootings like the one last week will become the norm in this country. The only thing I can see that would help if nothing else is done is to arm teachers, administrators, and maybe even the children. If we are gonna live in a wild west gun loving society then maybe everyone should be packing and maybe little children should be trained and armed from a young age. I think that sounds ridiculous as I am sure many others do but if nothing else is done to get rid of such weapons than these things will continue to happen more and more and more and the United States of America will not be known as the greatest country in the world anymore. It will just be considered the most dangerous and violent of the civilized countries in this world.

As a responsible gun owner, I'm as frustrated by this as you are. The last thing I want is to see irresponsible people (clearly the mother in this CN case) destroying the freedoms of the millions of gun owners who take this important liberty with grave seriousness.

That said, I would see a reasonable compromise in limiting magazine capacity to 10 or less for any guns going forward. But given the 10's of millions of higher capacity mags already out there, I'm not sure what impact it would have if one is of such a distorted mindset to cause this kind of tragedy in the first place.

I do tend to agree that we should permit teachers - if they are so inclined - to be armed in schools. Creating completely free-fire (no gun) zones is obviously not working.

Easy answers will not be found, else they would have already. Good cases can be made for everything from the emasculated way we raise boys in our society to video games and movies to the over abundance of guns. There's obviously a growing sickness that needs to be rooted out, but I have no idea how.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 12/18/2012 at 07:01 PM
Some of you must live in a very scary world. No way would I want everyone in a school, including the students, armed. A lot of people don't have the self control necessary to resolve confrontations without violence. There was a recent shooting in Florida when a man complained about the service being slow in a pizza parlor. Another patron took umbrage over the remark, a couple of blows were landed and the one guy took out his gun and shot the guy who complained twice in the stomach. He said it was under the 'stand your ground' law. He's been held on attempted murder charges. It's those kinds of people who don't need to be armed.

As for the police....they're trained professionals and it's part of their job to carry weapons for any situation. Of course, it's usually only the SWAT teams that carry certain firepower. So, using the police as an illustration really is a bogus argument.

 

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  posted on 12/18/2012 at 08:28 PM
quote:
As for the police....they're trained professionals and it's part of their job to carry weapons for any situation. Of course, it's usually only the SWAT teams that carry certain firepower. So, using the police as an illustration really is a bogus argument.



Walk up to any police office, state trooper, Sheriff, whatever and ask what type handgun they carry.
Guess what the odds are that he carries either a Glock or a similar handgun. They have magazines that usually carry 10 or more rounds.
Look inside the cruiser, be nice and ask if they will open the trunk. You will probably find an AR-15 mounted in a rack in the trunk. Of course the shotgun will be mounted either between the seats or under the dash.
Police officers, especially those who patrol large areas and know backup will take a while arriving, carry as much firepower as they can physically handle.
So, do you still want to limit the magazines to 5 or 6 rounds?

 

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