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Author: Subject: Why did ABB do Mtn Jam?

Zen Peach



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  posted on 5/21/2011 at 02:32 PM
quote:
quote:
Why did ABB do Mtn Jam?



Because it is there.



 

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  posted on 5/22/2011 at 06:41 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
Why did ABB do Mtn Jam?



Because it is there.






Amen. Speculating that Duane was playing around with the melody and it just took off into a jam. Pure chance and then when they played the tape back, it sounded really good so they put it on the set list, everybody loved it and the world became a better place when they put it on vinyl.

 

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Universal Peach



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  posted on 5/22/2011 at 10:02 AM
quote:
At about the 9:00 mark on "Alligator" off Anthem of the Sun is one. I've heard it on other Alligators, too.

Go here and go to about the 2:40 mark and listen for, oh, 30-40 seconds or so. You'll hear Garcia do some Mt Jam phrasing in passing...it's very short.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7-H3Aoak3c



Alligator!!!! thanks for pointing out the 2:40 mark Bhawk. I would have never caught that. Love this tune.

 

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  posted on 5/23/2011 at 05:43 AM
I am a firm believer that the ABB heard it covered on Herbie Mann's "Windows Opened" LP from 1968 and decided to give it a whirl . . .

From AMG:
Recorded with Herbie Mann's working band at the time, Windows Opened captures the quintet tackling a mixed set of contemporary jazz and pop tunes. Especially noteworthy are takes on Tim Hardin's "If I Were a Carpenter" and the Wayne Shorter composition "Footprints." Although this is not one of the essential recordings in Mann's catalog, it features excellent playing throughout, with an amazing collection of talent: vibist, future funk/fusion star and acid jazz grandfather Roy Ayers; the unique free-jazz guitarist Sonny Sharrock; and the soon-to-be co-founder of Weather Report, bassist Miroslav Vitous. An enjoyable recording throughout.
Tracks
Title Composer Time
1 There Is a Mountain Leitch 6:08
2 If I Were a Carpenter Hardin 5:41
3 Paper Man Tolliver 6:47
4 Footprints Shorter 8:27
5 By the Time I Get to Phoenix Webb 2:22
6 Windows Opened Ayers 7:30

 

Sublime Peach



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  posted on 5/23/2011 at 06:32 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Why did ABB do Mtn Jam?



Because it is there.






Amen. Speculating that Duane was playing around with the melody and it just took off into a jam. Pure chance and then when they played the tape back, it sounded really good so they put it on the set list, everybody loved it and the world became a better place when they put it on vinyl.



Yep, that's the way I see it... hear it... first there is a mountain , then there is no mountain , then there is... L O V E the Allman Brothers version, but also dug THE Orignal Donovan's... Donovan's hit was all over the radio back in those days... a very cool song..made even cooler by the Brothers..

 

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  posted on 5/23/2011 at 09:07 PM
quote:
I am a firm believer that the ABB heard it covered on Herbie Mann's "Windows Opened" LP from 1968 and decided to give it a whirl . . .

From AMG:
Recorded with Herbie Mann's working band at the time, Windows Opened captures the quintet tackling a mixed set of contemporary jazz and pop tunes. Especially noteworthy are takes on Tim Hardin's "If I Were a Carpenter" and the Wayne Shorter composition "Footprints." Although this is not one of the essential recordings in Mann's catalog, it features excellent playing throughout, with an amazing collection of talent: vibist, future funk/fusion star and acid jazz grandfather Roy Ayers; the unique free-jazz guitarist Sonny Sharrock; and the soon-to-be co-founder of Weather Report, bassist Miroslav Vitous. An enjoyable recording throughout.
Tracks
Title Composer Time
1 There Is a Mountain Leitch 6:08
2 If I Were a Carpenter Hardin 5:41
3 Paper Man Tolliver 6:47
4 Footprints Shorter 8:27
5 By the Time I Get to Phoenix Webb 2:22
6 Windows Opened Ayers 7:30


Hey Peachtruck, I think you might have something there. I checked out my Herbie Mann albums and noticed some interesting facts.

Tom Dowd was the engineer on much of Herbie Mann's early work in New York in the 50's.

In the 60's, Mann did a lot of recording in Memphis. Of course, Duane played with Mann on the Push/Push album which was not long after the Windows Opening album. I can imagine that Duane might have checked out Herbie's latest recording if he was going to be Mann's sideman.

Another interesting fact is that the ABB included Ray Charles' What'd I Say on the Ludlow Garage album version of Mountain Jam and Herbie Mann includes Ray Charles' What'd I Say on the Push/Push album with Duane.

In the book Skydog, Randy Poe tells the story of how Herbie Mann sat in with Delaney & Bonnie while Duane was playing with them: " Mann and Allman immediately took to each other musically, improvising solos that stirred the crowd into demanding encores." I wonder if "Mountain" and/or "What'd I Say" might have been played that night.



 

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  posted on 5/24/2011 at 10:12 AM
quote:
Butterfield's East/West is a huge favourite of mine. Apparently there is a live East/West recording but I haven't run across it.


Here you go.

Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JT0W3Dt87Q4

Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uVnXV_B16w

There's also this album, which is a lot of fun-

http://www.amazon.com/East-West-Live-Paul-Butterfield/dp/B0000034D7

Hope this helps,
Brian.

 

Peach Head



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  posted on 5/26/2011 at 10:09 AM
Thanks Brian.
I haven't had a chance to check out the U-tubes yet, but I'm looking forward to it. The Live CD cover looks cool and I'll definitely keep my eye out for that recording.

 

Universal Peach



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  posted on 5/30/2011 at 07:36 PM
On Eat A Peach, approx 20 minutes into Mountain Jam, I hear a nod to the Jimi Hendrix Experience develop out of the drum solo, shades of the drum/bass interlude in "1983" (about 9 minutes into 1983 on Electric Ladyland) then after a couple minutes the guitars kick in with "Third Stone From The Sun" at approx 22 minutes, they play the riff four times.
 

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  posted on 1/18/2012 at 08:57 AM
I always liked the version by Ivan 'Boogaloo Joe' Jones
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17aS5RkcjV0
The record it's on, Introducing The Psychedelic Soul Jazz Guitar Of Joe Jones, was released in 1968, so you never know, maybe

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 1/18/2012 at 09:32 AM
Great thread............


I think it's because they had 33 minutes and 38 seconds to fill on the album........

 

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True Peach



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  posted on 1/18/2012 at 09:49 AM
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I think it was inspired by jazz and the idea of taking a melody and expanding on it...much in the way John Coltrane took My Favorite Things and made it what it is today in the jamband and jazz scene. It was a way to feature each band member and to take music to it's limit and creative peak. Plus the dead did a tease on one of their early live LP's and I'm sure Duane heard that plus Paul Butterfield Blues band's East West was probably an influence


I'm taking your point Ron....

 

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  posted on 1/18/2012 at 12:20 PM
My father likes jazz, I never really took to it. One Sunday, he and my mother were over for dinner and I had some ABB in the CD player on background. Halfway through Mountain Jam, he asks me who it was and says, "This is great". My father and I have absolutely no musical crossover and for him to say that at that point in my life was a validation I didn't realize would mean so much to me until he said it.

 

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Universal Peach



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  posted on 1/18/2012 at 01:17 PM
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My father likes jazz, I never really took to it. One Sunday, he and my mother were over for dinner and I had some ABB in the CD player on background. Halfway through Mountain Jam, he asks me who it was and says, "This is great". My father and I have absolutely no musical crossover and for him to say that at that point in my life was a validation I didn't realize would mean so much to me until he said it.


Cool story! Gotta love pops!

 

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Peach Master



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  posted on 1/18/2012 at 03:36 PM
Because they COULD !

[Edited on 1/18/2012 by Russvergara]

 

Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 1/18/2012 at 03:57 PM
Mtnjam Rocks The allmans have always made any cover they do better than the original. statesboro blues and Blind willie Mctell are just 2 examples of that.

[Edited on 1/18/2012 by fender31]

 

Peach Head



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  posted on 1/19/2012 at 05:38 PM
quote:
I always liked the version by Ivan 'Boogaloo Joe' Jones
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17aS5RkcjV0
The record it's on, Introducing The Psychedelic Soul Jazz Guitar Of Joe Jones, was released in 1968, so you never know, maybe


Thanks for posting that U-tube. I really enjoyed it. I think I'll try to check out some of his albums.

 

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  posted on 1/19/2012 at 06:26 PM
It just struck me that the ABB and their history of performing Mountain Jam bear similarity to the lyrics.

First there is a mountain (jam): Early days to 1974ish

then there is no mountain (jam): 1979-82, 1989 to 2000

then there is! 2000 to present

there were a few teases here and there but that hardly counts... I'm glad it's back though.

 

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A Peach Supreme



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  posted on 1/20/2012 at 03:56 AM
quote:
I am a firm believer that the ABB heard it covered on Herbie Mann's "Windows Opened" LP from 1968 and decided to give it a whirl . . .

From AMG:
Recorded with Herbie Mann's working band at the time, Windows Opened captures the quintet tackling a mixed set of contemporary jazz and pop tunes. Especially noteworthy are takes on Tim Hardin's "If I Were a Carpenter" and the Wayne Shorter composition "Footprints." Although this is not one of the essential recordings in Mann's catalog, it features excellent playing throughout, with an amazing collection of talent: vibist, future funk/fusion star and acid jazz grandfather Roy Ayers; the unique free-jazz guitarist Sonny Sharrock; and the soon-to-be co-founder of Weather Report, bassist Miroslav Vitous. An enjoyable recording throughout.
Tracks
Title Composer Time
1 There Is a Mountain Leitch 6:08
2 If I Were a Carpenter Hardin 5:41
3 Paper Man Tolliver 6:47
4 Footprints Shorter 8:27
5 By the Time I Get to Phoenix Webb 2:22
6 Windows Opened Ayers 7:30


Sounds enitirely plausible.

If you listen to Herbie's version, you can even hear where Duane "borrowed" some of his licks from.

The drum accents are very similar too.





[Edited on 1/20/2012 by Shavian]

 

Peach Head



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  posted on 1/20/2012 at 02:47 PM
The first time I saw the ABB after they moved to Macon, I learned what improv was.
They took the Second Coming cover of "Don't Want You No More" and dropped the
vocals and added the improv, that flowed into "Not My Cross To Bear". It was around
then that "Mountain Jam" was added to the set list and Butch started hauling his kettle
drums around with them.
The first time I heard "Mountain Jam" I couldnt connect were I heard that song before.

Good Thread:


 

Peach Bud



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  posted on 3/19/2014 at 09:59 AM
quote:
quote:
I am a firm believer that the ABB heard it covered on Herbie Mann's "Windows Opened" LP from 1968 and decided to give it a whirl . . .

From AMG:
Recorded with Herbie Mann's working band at the time, Windows Opened captures the quintet tackling a mixed set of contemporary jazz and pop tunes. Especially noteworthy are takes on Tim Hardin's "If I Were a Carpenter" and the Wayne Shorter composition "Footprints." Although this is not one of the essential recordings in Mann's catalog, it features excellent playing throughout, with an amazing collection of talent: vibist, future funk/fusion star and acid jazz grandfather Roy Ayers; the unique free-jazz guitarist Sonny Sharrock; and the soon-to-be co-founder of Weather Report, bassist Miroslav Vitous. An enjoyable recording throughout.
Tracks
Title Composer Time
1 There Is a Mountain Leitch 6:08
2 If I Were a Carpenter Hardin 5:41
3 Paper Man Tolliver 6:47
4 Footprints Shorter 8:27
5 By the Time I Get to Phoenix Webb 2:22
6 Windows Opened Ayers 7:30


Hey Peachtruck, I think you might have something there. I checked out my Herbie Mann albums and noticed some interesting facts.

Tom Dowd was the engineer on much of Herbie Mann's early work in New York in the 50's.

In the 60's, Mann did a lot of recording in Memphis. Of course, Duane played with Mann on the Push/Push album which was not long after the Windows Opening album. I can imagine that Duane might have checked out Herbie's latest recording if he was going to be Mann's sideman.

Another interesting fact is that the ABB included Ray Charles' What'd I Say on the Ludlow Garage album version of Mountain Jam and Herbie Mann includes Ray Charles' What'd I Say on the Push/Push album with Duane.

In the book Skydog, Randy Poe tells the story of how Herbie Mann sat in with Delaney & Bonnie while Duane was playing with them: " Mann and Allman immediately took to each other musically, improvising solos that stirred the crowd into demanding encores." I wonder if "Mountain" and/or "What'd I Say" might have been played that night.






You are very close, but the timeline doesn't work. Duane met Herbie in 1970 (and was asked to play on "Push Push"), AFTER the brothers had started playing "Mountain Jam".

But I think I figured this out. Here's the timeline:

- August 1967, Donovan releases "There is a Mountain"

- September 21, 1967, Herbie Mann records a 2-minute instrumental version of "There is a Mountain." Tom Dowd is the sound engineer, Nesuhi Ertegun is the producer. (This version is later released in 1968 on Mann's "String Album").

- February 8, 1968, Herbie Mann records the 6-minute version of "There is a Mountain" that is released on "Windows Opened." (Dowd was not credited as engineer on that track, so may or may not have been involved.)

- January, 1969, Duane Allman plays on Aretha Franklin's "the Weight", engineered by Tom Dowd."

[MY SPECULATION: Tom Dowd, knowing that Duane is getting into jazz about this time, says "hey man, check this out...." ]

- May 4, 1969, the Allman Brothers play the first known performance of "Mountain Jam" at Macon Central Park.

So it seems to me that "Mountain Jam" came from Herbie Mann's instrumental version of "There is a Mountain" (It sure sounds like it if you listen to the two) and Tom Dowd was the link.

Herbie Mann did sit in with the ABB at their concert in Central Park, and did play on "Mountain Jam", but all of that was after the fact.




 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/19/2014 at 10:19 AM
quote:
quote:
Why did ABB do Mtn Jam?



Because it is there.

::Golf clap::

The Dead connection makes sense, but based on that 1/22/68 jam, what the Dead did with the song is nothing like what the ABB ultimately did with it. They jammed on the melody a little and that seems to be it. "Let's jam on this melody" doesn't automatically get you to Mountain Jam. That's where MJ must have started, but I don't think the Dead went further than that. The ABB eventually built the melody into a multi-part suite with defined sections. It repeats that melody in different forms and builds on it, and it even incorporates other songs (Third Stone from the Sun, sometimes Will the Circle Be Unbroken, and on occasion other songs like Blue Sky). I don't know if there's a real answer to the question of how the ABB got the idea because I'd still like to know that. Maybe it's somewhere in Alan Paul's tapes.

 

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Peach Head



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  posted on 3/19/2014 at 11:45 AM
Donovan made a great song when he wrote First there Is a Mountain. The Allman Brothers perfected it when they performed it like they did. I NEVER tire of hearing Mountain Jam from the Duane era especially and the version on 12/31/73 is awesome. The 5 man band did a great job of it after Brother Duanes death. It is an awesome song and The delight of any ABB show it is performed in.
 
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Peach Master



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  posted on 3/19/2014 at 01:09 PM
what The Grateful Dead did with what became "Mountain Jam" is negligible if anything at all.........

Alligator is a great tune about Pig swimming in the Russina River but the tune went nowhere and was rarely played anywho.

the Herbie Mann connection has real story legs and application IMHO.......the fact that they turned it into a blue/jazz-jam masterpiece is the deal.

the ABB did this "renovation" many times we know the names they are all on The Fillmore album..........but this one went into a serious "piece" as Butch would call it.

it is theirs and they can claim it or not claim it anyway they want to.

 

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  posted on 3/19/2014 at 01:27 PM
quote:
I think it was inspired by jazz and the idea of taking a melody and expanding on it...much in the way John Coltrane took My Favorite Things and made it what it is today in the jamband and jazz scene. It was a way to feature each band member and to take music to it's limit and creative peak. Plus the dead did a tease on one of their early live LP's and I'm sure Duane heard that plus Paul Butterfield Blues band's East West was probably an influence


Not to derail this tread but goldtop is onto something here......

I am a firm believer that Michal Bloomfield East-West had huge reaching significance in the whole SF music scene and beyond. E/W was the per-curer to what we know of as jam band and psychedelic jamming.....He was a musical genius way before his time IMHO and not sure enough credit has gone his way.

[Edited on 3/19/2014 by golfnutt67]

 

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