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Zen Peach





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  posted on 12/8/2010 at 10:21 AM



[Edited on 12/15/2011 by SantaCruzBluz]

 
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Zen Peach



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  posted on 12/8/2010 at 10:53 AM
First you win, then they fight you, then they laugh at you, then they ignore you.

 

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  posted on 12/8/2010 at 11:29 AM
Personally, I would have rather seen him (Obama) win the tax argument and lose the health care one. Tax rates go up and down, but once an entitlement program is put in place, it's tough to turn it off. Obamacare is really gonna hurt us over the long haul, (why else would they be busy granting waivers to a bunch of companies?), that's why he was criticizing members of his base as being "sanctimonious" and not playing "long ball."

Obama's playing long ball, and the health care bill is part of that. And it's gonna lead to single-payer and overwhelm the entitlement system. We can less afford to pay for Obamacare than we can afford to pay for "tax cuts for the rich". The loss of revenue from tax cuts is chump change compared to what Obamacare is gonna cost us over the long run.

 

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  posted on 12/8/2010 at 11:54 AM
Getting health care out from under the authority of the insurance industry is not an "entitlement." Heath care should be just like other aspects of our society such as police forces, courts, roads, the prison system, etc, in that we should pay for it out of our collective funds. It should not be part of the "for profit" sector, and the insurance industry should be cut right out of the equation. You are right about this being just a start, but it isn't leading to any kind of entitlement, though it should. Good health care is one thing we should all be entitled to, if we're entitled to anything. Health care should be paid for with our taxes. Cut out the insurance industry and put the entire health care system under one taxpayer funded umbrella, administered by knowledgeable professionals whose primary goal is to provide an excellent, efficient system, not to make money. This is just a start.

 

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  posted on 12/8/2010 at 12:05 PM
quote:
Getting health care out from under the authority of the insurance industry is not an "entitlement." Heath care should be just like other aspects of our society such as police forces, courts, roads, the prison system, etc, in that we should pay for it out of our collective funds. It should not be part of the "for profit" sector, and the insurance industry should be cut right out of the equation. You are right about this being just a start, but it isn't leading to any kind of entitlement, though it should. Good health care is one thing we should all be entitled to, if we're entitled to anything. Health care should be paid for with our taxes. Cut out the insurance industry and put the entire health care system under one taxpayer funded umbrella, administered by knowledgeable professionals whose primary goal is to provide an excellent, efficient system, not to make money. This is just a start.


I think it in fact does lead to health care becoming an "entitlement" and you make my argument in your post above. "Good health care is something we should all be entitled to..." is what you wrote.

The end game with regard to Obamacare is single-payer, and everyone knows that. It becomes a government-provided entitlement at that point, paid for by the (ever shrinking) tax payers of America. The insurance companies can't compete with the government, will have to raise their rates over and over, (we're seeing that already), and eventually enough folks will have dropped out that the insurance companies will go out of business. BAM!! Government-sponsored, single-payer health care.

I'd rather have my taxes go up now, and not have Obamacare in our future, then have Obamacare happen, which means my taxes will go up anyway.

 

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  posted on 12/8/2010 at 12:10 PM
Taxpayers paying for health care? Why shouldn't we be paying for our health care? We are paying for it now, only we're paying the insurance industry billions to skim all they want off the top, and try to pay as little as possible. Giving it a cute name like "Obamacare" may elicit nods of approval in certain groups, but it doesn't add to the dialog. I always wonder why private citizens side with the insurance industry over something as vital as our health care.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 12/8/2010 at 12:12 PM
quote:
The insurance companies can't compete with the government, will have to raise their rates over and over, (we're seeing that already), and eventually enough folks will have dropped out that the insurance companies will go out of business.


The insurance companies should go out of business. They've made billions off the misery of the American people. They should take their money and go hide somewhere.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 12/8/2010 at 12:18 PM
The already existing "entitlements" are fiscal disasters. What makes you think ObamaCare will be any different?

 

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  posted on 12/8/2010 at 12:20 PM
quote:
Taxpayers paying for health care? Why shouldn't we be paying for our health care? We are paying for it now, only we're paying the insurance industry billions to skim all they want off the top, and try to pay as little as possible. Giving it a cute name like "Obamacare" may elicit nods of approval in certain groups, but it doesn't add to the dialog. I always wonder why private citizens side with the insurance industry over something as vital as our health care.


Uh, I didn't name it that dude, it's sort of the accepted slang term for it. And to a certain extent, you're right, we are already kind of paying for lots of it through Medicare and Medicaid and the like. Which are good programs, and should be paid for.

But, having seen first-hand the "wonders" of a publicly funded hospital, I'll go to the private one any day of the week. The thought of the government running all the hospitals makes me shudder...

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 12/8/2010 at 12:22 PM
quote:
The already existing "entitlements" are fiscal disasters. What makes you think ObamaCare will be any different?


Our court system is a disaster? Our police forces are a disaster? Our city water systems are a disaster? Please explain.

 

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  posted on 12/8/2010 at 12:25 PM
quote:
quote:
The insurance companies can't compete with the government, will have to raise their rates over and over, (we're seeing that already), and eventually enough folks will have dropped out that the insurance companies will go out of business.


The insurance companies should go out of business. They've made billions off the misery of the American people. They should take their money and go hide somewhere.


Any other companies or industries that should go out of business? I mean, as long as we're on the subject.

Listmania!!!

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 12/8/2010 at 12:25 PM
quote:
quote:
Taxpayers paying for health care? Why shouldn't we be paying for our health care? We are paying for it now, only we're paying the insurance industry billions to skim all they want off the top, and try to pay as little as possible. Giving it a cute name like "Obamacare" may elicit nods of approval in certain groups, but it doesn't add to the dialog. I always wonder why private citizens side with the insurance industry over something as vital as our health care.


Uh, I didn't name it that dude, it's sort of the accepted slang term for it. And to a certain extent, you're right, we are already kind of paying for lots of it through Medicare and Medicaid and the like. Which are good programs, and should be paid for.

But, having seen first-hand the "wonders" of a publicly funded hospital, I'll go to the private one any day of the week. The thought of the government running all the hospitals makes me shudder...


Who do you think pays for the system the insurance company is making their billions off of? Where does that money come from? It comes from the American people, a few bucks at a time. Cut them out and use the money for actual health care.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 12/8/2010 at 12:28 PM
quote:
I wonder if there are statistics out there comparing the overall health of the citizens of one country with public health insurance as opposed to the overall health of citizens in another country with private health insurance.

I wonder if the cost of insurance is an incentive for people to take better care of themselves, and if any statistical data can be provided to establish the possibility of such a relationship.

I mean, with the cost of cigarettes going up, people are quitting smoking. Health and cost of health care directly related or inversely related? Hmmm....

Fwiw, I think it's kinda sick to capitalize off of somebody's health or lack thereof.


Charlie, just look at where the health care system in our country ranks us in the world. Life expectancy, birth survival, etc, we are way, way down on the list, below the European countries who realize health care is not something for private companies to grow wealthy off of. Every time a Republican says we have the best health care system in the world, he is lying.

 

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  posted on 12/8/2010 at 12:30 PM
quote:
quote:
The already existing "entitlements" are fiscal disasters. What makes you think ObamaCare will be any different?


Our court system is a disaster? Our police forces are a disaster? Our city water systems are a disaster? Please explain.




Crank up the definition machine!!

Entitlement: An entitlement is a guarantee of access to benefits based on established rights or by legislation. A "right" is itself an entitlement associated with a moral or social principle, such that an "entitlement" is a provision made in accordance with legal framework of a society. Typically, entitlements are laws based on concepts of principle ("rights") which are themselves based in concepts of social equality or enfranchisement.

In a casual sense, the term "entitlement" refers to a notion or belief that one (or oneself) is deserving of some particular reward or benefit[1]—if given without deeper legal or principled cause, the term is often given with pejorative connotation (e.g. a "sense of entitlement").

I am not entitled to city water, or the court system, or the police. I pay a water bill, I get TAKEN to court, and I have guns at home, so I don't need the cops...

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 12/8/2010 at 12:31 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
The insurance companies can't compete with the government, will have to raise their rates over and over, (we're seeing that already), and eventually enough folks will have dropped out that the insurance companies will go out of business.


The insurance companies should go out of business. They've made billions off the misery of the American people. They should take their money and go hide somewhere.


Any other companies or industries that should go out of business? I mean, as long as we're on the subject.

Listmania!!!


The insurance industry is just a start. As we become more transparent and honest in our dealings with each other, the banking and savings and loan industry will also become a dinosaur whose time has come. Very likely in your lifetime.

 

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  posted on 12/8/2010 at 12:32 PM
quote:
Cut out the insurance industry and put the entire health care system under one taxpayer funded umbrella, administered by knowledgeable professionals whose primary goal is to provide an excellent, efficient system, not to make money. This is just a start.
The problem with this scenario is the idea that you'll get "knowledgeable professionals" running such a system. Having health care paid for via tax dollars means that politicians will run the system, not the selfless paragons of virtue you hope for. Political control of this service will result in the same outcome as political control of anything else: corruption, waste, favors for the politically connected, etc. It's entirely possible that you'll end up getting less per dollar spent, not more, as that's more often than not the result of public sector services. It's naive to believe otherwise.

What's today's argument for paying public sector workers so much more than those in the private sector? We need to pay them more so they won't leave for more profit in the private sector. And the savings are going to come from where.....

 

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  posted on 12/8/2010 at 12:33 PM
quote:
quote:
I wonder if there are statistics out there comparing the overall health of the citizens of one country with public health insurance as opposed to the overall health of citizens in another country with private health insurance.

I wonder if the cost of insurance is an incentive for people to take better care of themselves, and if any statistical data can be provided to establish the possibility of such a relationship.

I mean, with the cost of cigarettes going up, people are quitting smoking. Health and cost of health care directly related or inversely related? Hmmm....

Fwiw, I think it's kinda sick to capitalize off of somebody's health or lack thereof.


Charlie, just look at where the health care system in our country ranks us in the world. Life expectancy, birth survival, etc, we are way, way down on the list, below the European countries who realize health care is not something for private companies to grow wealthy off of. Every time a Republican says we have the best health care system in the world, he is lying.


That must be why the King of Saudi Arabia said "Gee, I think I'll go to Britain for my health care!"

No, he went to New York, because he knew he'd get the best health care there.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 12/8/2010 at 12:35 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
The already existing "entitlements" are fiscal disasters. What makes you think ObamaCare will be any different?


Our court system is a disaster? Our police forces are a disaster? Our city water systems are a disaster? Please explain.




Crank up the definition machine!!

Entitlement: An entitlement is a guarantee of access to benefits based on established rights or by legislation. A "right" is itself an entitlement associated with a moral or social principle, such that an "entitlement" is a provision made in accordance with legal framework of a society. Typically, entitlements are laws based on concepts of principle ("rights") which are themselves based in concepts of social equality or enfranchisement.

In a casual sense, the term "entitlement" refers to a notion or belief that one (or oneself) is deserving of some particular reward or benefit[1]—if given without deeper legal or principled cause, the term is often given with pejorative connotation (e.g. a "sense of entitlement").

I am not entitled to city water, or the court system, or the police. I pay a water bill, I get TAKEN to court, and I have guns at home, so I don't need the cops...


You're the one calling them entitlements. I'm calling them the natural results of the citizens of this country providing for their common good through pooling their dollars to create services and institutions that benefit them. Creating an effective health care system should be part of that as well. You're paying taxes right now that fund bombs dropping on Afghanistan. Why would you not want to fund a health care system that doesn't include making wealthier insurance executives even wealthier?

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 12/8/2010 at 12:37 PM
I'd like to jump in here and mention that the people already pay for healthcare for the indigent. When someone shows up at a hospital that accepts federal funding they are cared for and then the taxpayers pick up the tab. Little known fact, you can apply for financial aid if you need to be hospitalized and get either a reduced rate or pay nothing. To think we're not already paying is to be uninformed.

That being said. I'm one of the people incredibly ticked at the current events coming out of D.C. and I watched the RMS last night and saw what she said. It was well thought out and true.

 

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Universal Peach



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  posted on 12/8/2010 at 12:38 PM
quote:
quote:
Taxpayers paying for health care? Why shouldn't we be paying for our health care? We are paying for it now, only we're paying the insurance industry billions to skim all they want off the top, and try to pay as little as possible. Giving it a cute name like "Obamacare" may elicit nods of approval in certain groups, but it doesn't add to the dialog. I always wonder why private citizens side with the insurance industry over something as vital as our health care.


Uh, I didn't name it that dude, it's sort of the accepted slang term for it. And to a certain extent, you're right, we are already kind of paying for lots of it through Medicare and Medicaid and the like. Which are good programs, and should be paid for.

But, having seen first-hand the "wonders" of a publicly funded hospital, I'll go to the private one any day of the week. The thought of the government running all the hospitals makes me shudder...


There's no debate, we are paying for ALL of our health care whether it's administered or provided by public or private entities. And by the way, simply allowing the gov't to act as "middleman" does not mean the actual delivery of the health care itself can't occur at privately owned hospitals, clinics, etc. and at the same time, for some people, publicly owned hospitals, clinics, etc. It's already occurring.

What single payer could become is simply letting the gov't pay for these services and acting as the "middle man." And yes, this would require serious efforts at ending fraud, over payments, redundancy, waste, etc. But it is achievable. Take the recently announced efforts at the Justice Dept. and their recovery of over $5 Billion of fraudulent payments in the Medicaid/Care program. This is the most ever by the way, but yet is still a drop in the bucket. My point is that an efficient, cost effective system can be created. We just need to make the effort and direct enough resources toward soling the problem.

And think how competitive American corporations and small businesses could be globally if they weren't held hostage to one sector of the economy (the health insurance industry). Or how cheaper it would be to operate state and local gov'ts, or school districts, if they didn't directly pay for health insurance for their employees. Medicaid for all, and we all pay for it via our taxes.

 

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  posted on 12/8/2010 at 12:39 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
The already existing "entitlements" are fiscal disasters. What makes you think ObamaCare will be any different?


Our court system is a disaster? Our police forces are a disaster? Our city water systems are a disaster? Please explain.




Crank up the definition machine!!

Entitlement: An entitlement is a guarantee of access to benefits based on established rights or by legislation. A "right" is itself an entitlement associated with a moral or social principle, such that an "entitlement" is a provision made in accordance with legal framework of a society. Typically, entitlements are laws based on concepts of principle ("rights") which are themselves based in concepts of social equality or enfranchisement.

In a casual sense, the term "entitlement" refers to a notion or belief that one (or oneself) is deserving of some particular reward or benefit[1]—if given without deeper legal or principled cause, the term is often given with pejorative connotation (e.g. a "sense of entitlement").

I am not entitled to city water, or the court system, or the police. I pay a water bill, I get TAKEN to court, and I have guns at home, so I don't need the cops...


You're the one calling them entitlements. I'm calling them the natural results of the citizens of this country providing for their common good through pooling their dollars to create services and institutions that benefit them. Creating an effective health care system should be part of that as well. You're paying taxes right now that fund bombs dropping on Afghanistan. Why would you not want to fund a health care system that doesn't include making wealthier insurance executives even wealthier?


What is it about you guys (lefties) and "the rich"? Did a rich guy steal your girlfriend or something? I don't get it. And personally, I don't mind some of my tax money going to buying bombs that get dropped in Afghanistan. It beats the alternative...

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 12/8/2010 at 12:40 PM
What's the alternative?

 

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Sometimes we can't choose the music life gives us - but we damn sure can choose how we dance!


 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 12/8/2010 at 12:41 PM
quote:
quote:
Cut out the insurance industry and put the entire health care system under one taxpayer funded umbrella, administered by knowledgeable professionals whose primary goal is to provide an excellent, efficient system, not to make money. This is just a start.
The problem with this scenario is the idea that you'll get "knowledgeable professionals" running such a system. Having health care paid for via tax dollars means that politicians will run the system, not the selfless paragons of virtue you hope for. Political control of this service will result in the same outcome as political control of anything else: corruption, waste, favors for the politically connected, etc. It's entirely possible that you'll end up getting less per dollar spent, not more, as that's more often than not the result of public sector services. It's naive to believe otherwise.

What's today's argument for paying public sector workers so much more than those in the private sector? We need to pay them more so they won't leave for more profit in the private sector. And the savings are going to come from where.....


From taking the billions spent on advertising, administration, profits, etc, out of the insurance industry.

Fuji, your entire argument is built around your cynicism that the American government can do anything right. You easily dismiss any idea of a better future because of your fear that things just cant get better, will only get worse. seems to me like you agree with my concept completely, just don't think it can be done because the government workers are so inept.

Sso which is it? Is what I propose right, or wrong, and don't take into consideration whether it can or cannot be implemented? Should health care be something that anyone who wants to get in the game cam make as much money as possible on, or should it be something that the citizens of this country provide for themselves through their collective efforts?

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 12/8/2010 at 12:43 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
The already existing "entitlements" are fiscal disasters. What makes you think ObamaCare will be any different?


Our court system is a disaster? Our police forces are a disaster? Our city water systems are a disaster? Please explain.




Crank up the definition machine!!

Entitlement: An entitlement is a guarantee of access to benefits based on established rights or by legislation. A "right" is itself an entitlement associated with a moral or social principle, such that an "entitlement" is a provision made in accordance with legal framework of a society. Typically, entitlements are laws based on concepts of principle ("rights") which are themselves based in concepts of social equality or enfranchisement.

In a casual sense, the term "entitlement" refers to a notion or belief that one (or oneself) is deserving of some particular reward or benefit[1]—if given without deeper legal or principled cause, the term is often given with pejorative connotation (e.g. a "sense of entitlement").

I am not entitled to city water, or the court system, or the police. I pay a water bill, I get TAKEN to court, and I have guns at home, so I don't need the cops...


You're the one calling them entitlements. I'm calling them the natural results of the citizens of this country providing for their common good through pooling their dollars to create services and institutions that benefit them. Creating an effective health care system should be part of that as well. You're paying taxes right now that fund bombs dropping on Afghanistan. Why would you not want to fund a health care system that doesn't include making wealthier insurance executives even wealthier?


What is it about you guys (lefties) and "the rich"? Did a rich guy steal your girlfriend or something? I don't get it. And personally, I don't mind some of my tax money going to buying bombs that get dropped in Afghanistan. It beats the alternative...


I thought we were having a discussion about health care. You've decided to take it personal, which tells me you've run out of things to say. Adios.

 

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  posted on 12/8/2010 at 12:44 PM
quote:
What's the alternative?


Uh....bombs dropping on US? Or a nice candlelight dinner. No, bombs dropping on us. That's the "alternative" for the purpose of this discussion...

 
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