Don't click or your IP will be banned


Hittin' The Web with the Allman Brothers Band Forum
You are not logged in

< Last Thread   Next Thread ><<  1    2  >>Ascending sortDescending sorting  
Author: Subject: Hate Crimes

Maximum Peach





Posts: 9082
(9082 all sites)
Registered: 2/25/2003
Status: Offline

  posted on 8/6/2010 at 11:36 AM
I saw a report the other night about a hate crime. I always find that a weird distinction. Letís say you have two people that were beat up, same injuries, both are of the same race, creed, etc..but one victim was called a racial slur during the act. In any other situation, that racial slur is protected under free speech. Why is it that the Constitution protects the ability to be an a-hole in some instances, but not in others? Incidentally, I am not condoning racial slurs or kicking the crap out of people based on their color, creed, sexual orientation, etc. I just find it odd the distinction odd.
 
Replies:

True Peach



Karma:
Posts: 8946
(10094 all sites)
Registered: 6/14/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 8/6/2010 at 11:38 AM

Yeah, that is kinda weird, I mean, aren't a lot of crimes, hate crimes? just sayin'

 

____________________

You don't work, the man don't pay ya.
There ain't no saint to come and save ya

 
E-Mail User

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 20943
(20942 all sites)
Registered: 6/15/2005
Status: Offline

  posted on 8/6/2010 at 11:41 AM
I have always been opposed to hate crime legislation. Motive should not be a factor in the seriousness of a crime. It should make no difference whether you murder someone for money or because of their race.

 

____________________

 

Ultimate Peach



Karma:
Posts: 3070
(3075 all sites)
Registered: 5/30/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 8/6/2010 at 12:17 PM
All crime is hate crime!

There's my definition.

 

____________________
"What we do in life echoes in eternity."




 

True Peach



Karma:
Posts: 13877
(13931 all sites)
Registered: 7/17/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 8/6/2010 at 12:23 PM
South Park had a fantastic episode dealing with "hate crimes".

Yeah, personally I don't see the need for a distinction. Crime is crime - shouldn't matter about the skin color/sexual preference/nationality etc. of either the victim or the perpetrator.

I'm sure that there are some sick individuals out there who commit crimes against others because they don't like their features or preferences. Still, a crime is a crime.

I'm a white guy (for the most part). If I dislike another white guy to the point where I go off and kill him - why isn't THAT a "hate crime"?

 

____________________
Music is love, and love is music, if you know what I mean.
People who believe in music are the happiest people I've ever seen.

Bill Ector, Randy Stephens, Dan Hills and a guy named BobO who I never met - Forever in my heart!

 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 15832
(15866 all sites)
Registered: 8/9/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 8/6/2010 at 12:30 PM
If I'm killing someone, I hate that mother-f*cker, at least for a minute.

 

____________________


 

True Peach



Karma:
Posts: 11437
(11442 all sites)
Registered: 8/21/2006
Status: Offline

  posted on 8/6/2010 at 12:38 PM
I was of the same opinion as the rest of you until I heard it explained recently. While the direct victim in the hate crime suffers the same as a regular victim, the effect of a hate crime is to strike fear into the ethnic group, and thus a larger group of people are, for lack of a better term, terrorized.

It is basically terrorism directed at an ethnic or other group. Would you guys not say an act of terrorism is more serious that the aggregate number of its direct victims?

 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 9121
(25070 all sites)
Registered: 10/30/2010
Status: Offline

  posted on 8/6/2010 at 12:39 PM
"Use of a racial slur in the commission of a crime"? Like a pistol makes a robbery a Class X felony? Yes, there is some room for interpretation.

 

____________________

 

True Peach



Karma:
Posts: 13877
(13931 all sites)
Registered: 7/17/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 8/6/2010 at 01:05 PM
quote:
I was of the same opinion as the rest of you until I heard it explained recently. While the direct victim in the hate crime suffers the same as a regular victim, the effect of a hate crime is to strike fear into the ethnic group, and thus a larger group of people are, for lack of a better term, terrorized.

It is basically terrorism directed at an ethnic or other group. Would you guys not say an act of terrorism is more serious that the aggregate number of its direct victims?


Well Brock, what if an African-American heterosexual kills a white homosexual over something like a parking spot in a mall parking lot. How does a jury or DA know what motivated the killing?
If a white guy kills another white guy (or a black guy kills another black guy) - does the defense attorney's argument include, "well, at least he didn't mean anything hateful about it."?

 

____________________
Music is love, and love is music, if you know what I mean.
People who believe in music are the happiest people I've ever seen.

Bill Ector, Randy Stephens, Dan Hills and a guy named BobO who I never met - Forever in my heart!

 

Maximum Peach



Karma:
Posts: 9082
(9082 all sites)
Registered: 2/25/2003
Status: Offline

  posted on 8/6/2010 at 01:28 PM
quote:
I was of the same opinion as the rest of you until I heard it explained recently. While the direct victim in the hate crime suffers the same as a regular victim, the effect of a hate crime is to strike fear into the ethnic group, and thus a larger group of people are, for lack of a better term, terrorized.



Interesting, never thought of it that way.

 

True Peach



Karma:
Posts: 11679
(12122 all sites)
Registered: 1/8/2005
Status: Offline

  posted on 8/6/2010 at 01:33 PM
quote:
I was of the same opinion as the rest of you until I heard it explained recently. While the direct victim in the hate crime suffers the same as a regular victim, the effect of a hate crime is to strike fear into the ethnic group, and thus a larger group of people are, for lack of a better term, terrorized.

I understand the explanation, but it still sounds like political correctness run amok to me.

 

____________________
We'd all like to vote for the best man, but he's never a candidate.

 

True Peach



Karma:
Posts: 13877
(13931 all sites)
Registered: 7/17/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 8/6/2010 at 01:34 PM
quote:
quote:
Well Brock, what if an African-American heterosexual kills a white homosexual over something like a parking spot in a mall parking lot. How does a jury or DA know what motivated the killing?


If they can't prove that the crime was motivated by hate of a particular group, then it's not a hate crime. The standard of proof is exceedingly high and for good reason; that's why hate crimes prosecutions are very rare events.

quote:
If a white guy kills another white guy (or a black guy kills another black guy) - does the defense attorney's argument include, "well, at least he didn't mean anything hateful about it."?


Don't get hung up on the name. Yes, all murders are hateful acts. But "hate crime" specifically refers to the deliberate targeting of one particular group in the commission of a crime.


Thanks for clearing that up! Glad I was here to portray "the idiot".

 

____________________
Music is love, and love is music, if you know what I mean.
People who believe in music are the happiest people I've ever seen.

Bill Ector, Randy Stephens, Dan Hills and a guy named BobO who I never met - Forever in my heart!

 

True Peach



Karma:
Posts: 11437
(11442 all sites)
Registered: 8/21/2006
Status: Offline

  posted on 8/6/2010 at 02:06 PM
quote:
quote:
I was of the same opinion as the rest of you until I heard it explained recently. While the direct victim in the hate crime suffers the same as a regular victim, the effect of a hate crime is to strike fear into the ethnic group, and thus a larger group of people are, for lack of a better term, terrorized.

I understand the explanation, but it still sounds like political correctness run amok to me.


Here's a for instance. First, read about the racial cleasing of 1912 in this article about my neighboring county, Forsyth Co, GA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forsyth_County,_Georgia

Now, fast forward to the mid-70's. My dad's friend was building a house in Forsyth Co, and he reported that his black construction workers insisted on leaving the site before nightfall each day. He said they were deadly serious that something bad would happen to them if they did not. That is a real effect of crimes directed at others of a race.

 

Universal Peach



Karma:
Posts: 5768
(6034 all sites)
Registered: 2/5/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 8/6/2010 at 02:16 PM
SCB got it right.

 

____________________
Lovin my Duane Allman music....everyday jamin' for Duane.

 
E-Mail User

True Peach



Karma:
Posts: 11679
(12122 all sites)
Registered: 1/8/2005
Status: Offline

  posted on 8/6/2010 at 02:18 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
I was of the same opinion as the rest of you until I heard it explained recently. While the direct victim in the hate crime suffers the same as a regular victim, the effect of a hate crime is to strike fear into the ethnic group, and thus a larger group of people are, for lack of a better term, terrorized.

I understand the explanation, but it still sounds like political correctness run amok to me.


Here's a for instance. First, read about the racial cleasing of 1912 in this article about my neighboring county, Forsyth Co, GA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forsyth_County,_Georgia

Now, fast forward to the mid-70's. My dad's friend was building a house in Forsyth Co, and he reported that his black construction workers insisted on leaving the site before nightfall each day. He said they were deadly serious that something bad would happen to them if they did not. That is a real effect of crimes directed at others of a race.

Understood, but I maintain that the person who kills a man because he wants to steal his money or because he wants to have his wife has committed as heinous a crime as the person who kills a guy because he's black or because he's gay. In either case they have committed the ultimate crime. Making a distinction between the two does not serve any non-political purpose that I can think of.

 

____________________
We'd all like to vote for the best man, but he's never a candidate.

 

Peach Extraordinaire



Karma:
Posts: 4028
(4025 all sites)
Registered: 12/11/2001
Status: Offline

  posted on 8/6/2010 at 03:18 PM
I'd be more for hate crime law if it were enforced equally against all races if their crime fits the requirements / motives.

 

____________________
Tim L.

 

True Peach



Karma:
Posts: 13877
(13931 all sites)
Registered: 7/17/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 8/6/2010 at 03:39 PM
Murder is murder - period. That should really be the end of it. I understand the philosophy behind the term, "hate crime", but the application makes no sense to me. It's almost as if you're saying that certain cases of taking someone else's life are kinder and gentler - or that you're arguing that certain lives are more valuable and precious than others.

It's like buying a new car from a dealer. A better haggler will get a better deal on the same exact automobile. When it comes to murder, there should be a "price tag" - everybody pays the same.

The first time that I head the term, "hate crime" was by former President, Bill Clinton. At the time, my nephew was a 4th grader. The phrase itself, sounded like something that my nephew would've said at the time.

I hear all your arguments - it just seems like a redundant term.

 

____________________
Music is love, and love is music, if you know what I mean.
People who believe in music are the happiest people I've ever seen.

Bill Ector, Randy Stephens, Dan Hills and a guy named BobO who I never met - Forever in my heart!

 

True Peach



Karma:
Posts: 11679
(12122 all sites)
Registered: 1/8/2005
Status: Offline

  posted on 8/6/2010 at 03:47 PM
As Mona Lisa Vito would say, "Imagine you're a man. You're walking along. You get thirsty. You spot a little bar. You go in the little bar and put your lips to a cool, crisp beer- BAM. An effin' bullet rips off part of your head. Your brains are lying on the ground in little bloody pieces. Now I ask ya, would you give a eff what the son-of-a-bitch who shot you was thinking?"


[Edited on 8/6/2010 by bob1954]

 

____________________
We'd all like to vote for the best man, but he's never a candidate.

 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 20943
(20942 all sites)
Registered: 6/15/2005
Status: Offline

  posted on 8/6/2010 at 03:52 PM
quote:
I was of the same opinion as the rest of you until I heard it explained recently. While the direct victim in the hate crime suffers the same as a regular victim, the effect of a hate crime is to strike fear into the ethnic group, and thus a larger group of people are, for lack of a better term, terrorized.

It is basically terrorism directed at an ethnic or other group. Would you guys not say an act of terrorism is more serious that the aggregate number of its direct victims?


No. Murder is murder. Motives don't matter except to mitigate the seriousness not make it worse.

 

____________________

 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 20943
(20942 all sites)
Registered: 6/15/2005
Status: Offline

  posted on 8/6/2010 at 03:54 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
I was of the same opinion as the rest of you until I heard it explained recently. While the direct victim in the hate crime suffers the same as a regular victim, the effect of a hate crime is to strike fear into the ethnic group, and thus a larger group of people are, for lack of a better term, terrorized.

I understand the explanation, but it still sounds like political correctness run amok to me.


Here's a for instance. First, read about the racial cleasing of 1912 in this article about my neighboring county, Forsyth Co, GA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forsyth_County,_Georgia

Now, fast forward to the mid-70's. My dad's friend was building a house in Forsyth Co, and he reported that his black construction workers insisted on leaving the site before nightfall each day. He said they were deadly serious that something bad would happen to them if they did not. That is a real effect of crimes directed at others of a race.


That in and of itself is a crime. If they killed him no need for any charge but murder one. They should be executed anyway if they do that IMO.

 

____________________

 

True Peach



Karma:
Posts: 14590
(14590 all sites)
Registered: 3/28/2006
Status: Offline

  posted on 8/6/2010 at 04:07 PM
quote:
I was of the same opinion as the rest of you until I heard it explained recently. While the direct victim in the hate crime suffers the same as a regular victim, the effect of a hate crime is to strike fear into the ethnic group, and thus a larger group of people are, for lack of a better term, terrorized.

It is basically terrorism directed at an ethnic or other group. Would you guys not say an act of terrorism is more serious that the aggregate number of its direct victims?


This makes perfect sense to me and I am all for hate crime legislation. Regular crime victims are usually random victims while hate crime victims are usually singled out for their color or religion which in turn terrorizes their communities and evokes copy cats who might also be prejudiced to do the same. All criminals are scum though period!!!

 

____________________
Pete

 

True Peach



Karma:
Posts: 14590
(14590 all sites)
Registered: 3/28/2006
Status: Offline

  posted on 8/6/2010 at 04:13 PM
quote:
quote:
I was of the same opinion as the rest of you until I heard it explained recently. While the direct victim in the hate crime suffers the same as a regular victim, the effect of a hate crime is to strike fear into the ethnic group, and thus a larger group of people are, for lack of a better term, terrorized.

It is basically terrorism directed at an ethnic or other group. Would you guys not say an act of terrorism is more serious that the aggregate number of its direct victims?


Well Brock, what if an African-American heterosexual kills a white homosexual over something like a parking spot in a mall parking lot. How does a jury or DA know what motivated the killing?
If a white guy kills another white guy (or a black guy kills another black guy) - does the defense attorney's argument include, "well, at least he didn't mean anything hateful about it."?



The prejudiced criminal will always have some kind of background of hate towards whatever type of person they attack which would come out in any investigation. In your scenario, if the African-American heterosexual had no prior record or history of hate towards homosexuals then it wasn't a hate crime. If he had a history of bias and prejudice towards homosexuals then it was a hate crime. That is what detectives and court houses are for.

 

____________________
Pete

 

True Peach



Karma:
Posts: 13877
(13931 all sites)
Registered: 7/17/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 8/6/2010 at 04:22 PM
sixty8 (and others) - I hear every word that you're saying. I guess my analogies weren't good ones at all.

Let's try another approach:

Several years ago, there were some young punks who attended a metal show of some sorts at Atlanta's Lakewood (or whatever they're calling it these days) Amphitheater. These little punks walked around the grounds all night starting fights with other people - all of whom (as far as I know ) were of the same race. These were UNPROVOKED attacks. Eventually, one of these little cretins landed a lucky punch that knocked a kid over - hitting his head on the concrete and then dying.

Both of these guys were of the same race, sexual orientation - from the same city, even. Now, would this crime come under the heading of "Hate Crime"? Keep in mind that these were premeditated acts of random violence. Hate crime here?

EDIT - spelling AFU

[Edited on 8/6/2010 by Rusty]

 

____________________
Music is love, and love is music, if you know what I mean.
People who believe in music are the happiest people I've ever seen.

Bill Ector, Randy Stephens, Dan Hills and a guy named BobO who I never met - Forever in my heart!

 

True Peach



Karma:
Posts: 14590
(14590 all sites)
Registered: 3/28/2006
Status: Offline

  posted on 8/6/2010 at 05:41 PM
quote:
sixty8 (and others) - I hear every word that you're saying. I guess my analogies weren't good ones at all.

Let's try another approach:

Several years ago, there were some young punks who attended a metal show of some sorts at Atlanta's Lakewood (or whatever they're calling it these days) Amphitheater. These little punks walked around the grounds all night starting fights with other people - all of whom (as far as I know ) were of the same race. These were UNPROVOKED attacks. Eventually, one of these little cretins landed a lucky punch that knocked a kid over - hitting his head on the concrete and then dying.

Both of these guys were of the same race, sexual orientation - from the same city, even. Now, would this crime come under the heading of "Hate Crime"? Keep in mind that these were premeditated acts of random violence. Hate crime here?

EDIT - spelling AFU

[Edited on 8/6/2010 by Rusty]


Yes it is a hate crime but it is a little different because of the random nature of these attacks. Maybe it's just a semantics thing with the name because most crimes are hateful but I see a difference when people are targeted because of their ethnicity or religion. It is kind of an attack on that race or religion as a whole when someone is singled out. Isn't any better or worse just different IMO.

 

____________________
Pete

 

True Peach



Karma:
Posts: 11437
(11442 all sites)
Registered: 8/21/2006
Status: Offline

  posted on 8/6/2010 at 07:43 PM
quote:
Motives don't matter except to mitigate the seriousness not make it worse.


I don't need to disagree w/ you since the Congress of the United States already has.

Maybe murder is not the best hypothetical to use in discussing this since any murder justifies a civilized society's most severe punishment (you know, life imprisonment!).
Let's consider this one: A group of overexuberant high school football fans goes around town spraypainting "Wildcats Rule!," damaging private property. Another group, unhappy w/ blacks in their town, and seeking to intimidate them to leave, goes to their homes and sprays "KKK" thereon. Same amount of property damage in each example, same penalty? I say no.

 
<<  1    2  >>  


Powered by XForum 1.81.1 by Trollix Software

Privacy | Terms of Service | Report Infringement | Personal Data Management | Contact Us
The ALLMAN BROTHERS BAND name, The ALLMAN BROTHERS name, likenesses, logos, mushroom design and peach truck are all registered trademarks of THE ABB MERCHANDISING CO., INC. whose rights are specifically reserved. Any artwork, visual, or audio representations used on this web site CONTAINING ANY REGISTERED TRADEMARKS are under license from The ABB MERCHANDISING CO., INC. A REVOCABLE, GRATIS LICENSE IS GRANTED TO ALL REGISTERED PEACH CORP MEMBERS FOR The DOWNLOADING OF ONE COPY FOR PERSONAL USE ONLY. ANY DISTRIBUTION OR REPRODUCTION OF THE TRADEMARKS CONTAINED HEREIN ARE PROHIBITED AND ARE SPECIFICALLY RESERVED BY THE ABB MERCHANDISING CO.,INC.
site by Hittin' the Web Group with www.experiencewasabi3d.com