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Author: Subject: Hydrogen Now!

Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/17/2010 at 02:10 PM
By the way, Rich, how do they stop the leak?

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 6/17/2010 at 02:33 PM
quote:
Funny how much of my last response you avoided.
quote:
Haha, I write four paragraphs from which you pick out one sentence starting this detour, and you're criticizing me for avoidance? Try living by your own standards if you hope to be taken seriously.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/17/2010 at 02:40 PM
quote:
quote:
Funny how much of my last response you avoided.
quote:
Haha, I write four paragraphs from which you pick out one sentence starting this detour, and you're criticizing me for avoidance? Try living by your own standards if you hope to be taken seriously.


I'm not taken seriously? Gasp! You wound me.

Get on with your bad-a$$ self, Rich.

Apologies to Rusty for the thread swerve.

 

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Universal Peach



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  posted on 6/18/2010 at 08:25 AM
Back to the thread subject. I still say we need to move toward electric and hybrid vehicles for average consumers and the large fleet vehicles (over the road trucks, mass transit buses, etc.) could be fueled by liquid natural gas. Given we have was is now reputed to be the third largest reserves in the world of Natural gas, it seems crazy not to be using more of it.

Again, the increased electrical demands could be met with natural gas powered electrical plants, solar, wind, hydro, geo-thermal, and additional newer technology nuclear plants. We also need much greater emphasis on electrical efficiency. All the way from a "smarter grid" to energy efficient households (appliances, lighting, heating, cooling, etc..) and buildings.

 

Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 6/18/2010 at 09:15 AM
quote:
Bill

Back and with a sense of humor to boot!
I've always had a sense of humor, but it sometimes deserts me in the WP. I went on hiatus for a while to distance myself from some of my responses.

I'd rather go for quality over quantity, and to be able to keep myself a little bit lighter. I'll still post opposing opinions, but I'm aware that I probably won't change anyone's foundational beliefs, and that I'll still hold to mine. But as long as I can maintain this, I'll avoid crankiness

Billastro

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/18/2010 at 09:20 AM
quote:
quote:
Bill

Back and with a sense of humor to boot!
I've always had a sense of humor, but it sometimes deserts me in the WP. I went on hiatus for a while to distance myself from some of my responses.

I'd rather go for quality over quantity, and to be able to keep myself a little bit lighter. I'll still post opposing opinions, but I'm aware that I probably won't change anyone's foundational beliefs, and that I'll still hold to mine. But as long as I can maintain this, I'll avoid crankiness

Billastro


I'll believe it when I see it.

Always good to see you posting, Bill.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/18/2010 at 10:00 AM
quote:
I mean, we could just sit around and wait until they're gone before we get resourceful. Oh, wait! We already are. Never mind.


Are we about to run out of oil?

 

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True Peach



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  posted on 6/18/2010 at 10:12 AM
quote:
quote:
I mean, we could just sit around and wait until they're gone before we get resourceful. Oh, wait! We already are. Never mind.


Are we about to run out of oil?


If you were to create a timeline that started at the Industrial Revolution and ran to the present - then added a bar that refelcted the amount of "sanely accessible" oil supplies available then and now, I think you'd see that at the current rate of consumption, supply exhaustion can't be too far up the road.

Early in the 1970's, estimates for PEAK OIL PRODUCTION were given based on the number of automobiles on the road (gasoline consumption) at THAT TIME. I think the estimate was that we'd peak at a point in the late 90's. The problem is, the number of automobiles on the road has increased at a rate higher than the original estimate. I believe that the current general consensus is that we actually passed peak production in the late '70s/early '80s.

If you're only concerned about the amount of petroleum that will be required during your own lifetime - yeah, you're probably safe. We will not run out of oil on your watch or calendar.

We just might want to save some for the next several generations. they'll need it to stay warm in the winters while they actually have to develop alt-fuels out of necessity.

I mentioned in another thread that I am actually a tad bit more conservative than a lot of the folks who post here. I am also a dirt-wallowing, tree-hugging fan of the environment.

This issue should not be one that divides political parties. Like all others, though it can be turned into a poilitcal football.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/18/2010 at 10:16 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
I mean, we could just sit around and wait until they're gone before we get resourceful. Oh, wait! We already are. Never mind.


Are we about to run out of oil?



Should we wait until we do before we plan for the future?


Sure we should plan, and base those plans mainly around sources that already
exist -- natural gas, nuclear, coal. I realize the lack of trendiness in these sources. They are stodgy and boring -- but time tested and effective. If these were expanded, we probably wouldn't need a drop of oil for power generation. Our oil consumption would
fall by around 30%.

 

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Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 6/21/2010 at 09:36 AM
quote:
Bill

Back and with a sense of humor to boot!
I drop out every now and then so folks will welcome me back

Spare time has been short, and I've mostly lurked. But this one drew my attention, as well as my vast expertise (all together now, "Yeah, right!").

Electric cars exist:
but cost a fortune and have limited ranges. Wikipedia says
quote:
According to an independent analysis from the U.S. EPA, the Roadster can travel 244 miles (393 km) on a single charge of its lithium-ion battery pack, and can accelerate from 0–60 mph (0–97 km/h) in 3.7 seconds. The Roadster's efficiency, as of September 2008, was reported as 120 mpgge (2.0 L/100 km). It uses 135 Wh/km (21.7 kWh/100 mi or 490 kJ/km) battery-to-wheel, and has an efficiency of 92% on average.

The Roadster has a net base price of US$101,500 after a $7,500 U.S. federal tax credit is discounted ($109,000 MRSP price), and there are other tax credits and incentives in several states.
I'll wait....

Hydrogen has a whole raft of problems beyond its explosiveness, with its cost effectiveness probably being one of the worst. How much energy does it take to produce compared with the energy it releases for a car? How much will 300 miles' worth of hydrogen cost? A tankful of 87-octane in my '99 Escort less than $30, and fills a small volume of space.

How will our cars carry around the compressed hydrogen? A tank strong enough to contain it will probably weigh enough to affect the mileage, etc.

Liquefying it will condense it, but storing and refrigerating it will add to the weight of the storage "trailer".

If it explodes (crash, etc.)...


Overall, it sounds like a good idea, but I don't think we have the technology to pull it off, and I doubt that it would be competitive with gas, unless subsidized. And I'm agin' subsidies.

Billastro

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/21/2010 at 09:40 AM
quote:
If it explodes (crash, etc.)...



We made it through the Pinto years...

 

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Universal Peach



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  posted on 6/21/2010 at 09:45 AM
Again, why use hydrogen (and all the costs, technical issues, HUGE infrastructure investment, etc.) to produce electricity to drive a car when we already have the infrastructure in place now to allow you to simply charge your car with electricity? You're adding a hugely expensive and inefficient process into the equation. And as batteries become cheaper, more efficient, longer life span, etc. and the grid and generating processes the same (and greener and more renewable) it makes hydrogen even more cost prohibitive. And electric and/or hybrid cars are getting cheaper faster. Hydrogen is way behind in this all important category.
 

True Peach



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  posted on 6/21/2010 at 10:41 AM
The main problem with electric vehicles is that you can't "fill-up" in 5 minutes. They'll be great for around town (plug in and recharge overnight), but long drives (more than 100 miles or so) will not be feasible.

Like I said, I'm certainly no expert but gasoline is going to be phased out eventually. I imagine that in the next several years we'll see a return to gasoline rationing - a la WWII. Alternate fuels will become a reality eventually.

 

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Universal Peach



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  posted on 6/21/2010 at 10:45 AM
Actually Rusty, there's already companies leveraging themselves to be providers of batteries as well as charge stations. For instance if you don't want to wait 20 minutes to charge your car, you simply swap out your batteries in five minutes and away you go. It's just one concept that's being proposed to address the range and charge issues.
 

Universal Peach



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  posted on 6/21/2010 at 10:50 AM
quote:
quote:
Again, why use hydrogen (and all the costs, technical issues, HUGE infrastructure investment, etc.) to produce electricity to drive a car when we already have the infrastructure in place now to allow you to simply charge your car with electricity? You're adding a hugely expensive and inefficient process into the equation. And as batteries become cheaper, more efficient, longer life span, etc. and the grid and generating processes the same (and greener and more renewable) it makes hydrogen even more cost prohibitive. And electric and/or hybrid cars are getting cheaper faster. Hydrogen is way behind in this all important category.


I agree with you to a point, but my question is that there are many cities whose electrical grids are already overloaded, especially in the summer, and could they handle the influx of many electric cars? IMO, cities are the first place that electric cars would be feasible because of the relatively short range they have right now.


And those grids need to be updated anyway. So why not just update the electrical grid and solve two problems at once instead of building an entire new infrastructure for the hydrogen and also updating the electrical grid. And the beauty of electric and hybrids is you can more easily pump excess electricity back into the grid or use them as a home generator. Hydrogen cars may also serve that functions too, but again are still in their infancy and much more expensive and costly.

 

Universal Peach



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  posted on 6/21/2010 at 12:06 PM
A complete upgrade of the electrical grid was estimated to cost between about 60 - 100 Billion a year or so ago (yeah that's right, about the same amount of money we pissed away in Iraq last year alone). But to do both, upgrade the grid and build an entirely new hydrogen infrastructure, would be many, many more billions. That's why it makes even more sense to simply upgrade the electrical grid. One big project that would have a much greater return on investment. It simply doesn't make sense, as the technology stands at the moment anyway, to move to hydrogen powered automobiles. Electric, hybrids, and liquid natural gas fleet vehicles are hugely advantageous to hydrogen.
 

World Class Peach



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  posted on 5/25/2019 at 09:48 PM
To answer the question of production of Hydrogen, dc power is needed to split the oxygen and hydrogen, so solar power would be the best all around way to go. Iceland uses steam from geothermal vents to split the water.

Distribution can be done at full service stations already in place. Car companies would need to set up the vehicles with quick connect fittings like on gas grills, just with more robust piping.
The attendant would merely have to unlock the "filler door", take loose three bolts, pull the cylinder out halfway, undo the connecting hose and finish sliding out the cylinder.
Slide in the fresh cylinder halfway, hook up the hose, finish seating the cylinder, tighten the three bolts, and weigh the old cylinder for credit on what fuel remains inside.
One added benefit of using hydrogen is that the tank could be seated in a heat exchanger so that evaporation of the gas could help cool down the car on hot days.

 

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Sublime Peach



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  posted on 5/26/2019 at 12:20 PM
quote:
Slide in the fresh cylinder halfway, hook up the hose, finish seating the cylinder




 

World Class Peach



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  posted on 5/26/2019 at 09:05 PM
quote:
quote:
Slide in the fresh cylinder halfway, hook up the hose, finish seating the cylinder






Don't forget to use the three nuts.

 

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