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Author: Subject: Hydrogen Now!

True Peach





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  posted on 6/15/2010 at 01:21 PM
I apologize to the purists, but I found this article on the FOX News site. Hydrogen may be closer than we think! Initally, the cars will be expensive. But I'm sure as with most new technology, prices will come down pretty quickly.


Adam Housley

Los Angeles, CA

Can the Hydrogen Highway Exist?
June 15, 2010 - 12:59 PM | by: Adam Housley

Sitting alongside what was once the last couple miles of Route 66, pumps of petrol are in full use, but one stands alone, and for most of the time we've been here, goes unused. This pump looks the same from afar, but as you move closer, the blue writing sticks out from the familiar Shell red and yellow logo.

What makes this pump different is compressed Hydrogen and what could be the future along the mother road for American drivers. Chevrolet, Honda, Chrysler and most other car manufacturers believe that by 2015, car production could be ramped-up to make Hydrogen viable as a fuel alternative and a possible answer to get America off of fossil fuel and the dependence on foreign oil.

According to Shad Balch, the Advanced Technology Product Spokesman for General Motors, "Right now, we've put more than 100 fuel cell Chevy vehicles on the road to demonstrate that the technology is real, that it's not a science project, that we can use this sort of application hopefully that will spur the investment into the infrastructure."

Balch and Honda's Jessica Fini say that their companies and others are already in the product demonstration phase and that these vehicles are already being leased by everyday American's ready to help do what they can to end the dependence. The cars are filled up with compressed hydrogen much the same way you fill your car with gas. Basically, you plug in the hose and 5 minutes later the car is full. The cost is much less than a full tank of gas and the compressed hydrogen recharges the electric batteries, which only emits a water vapor, so it's virtually clean.

While the thought of all this is exciting, some critics claim it just isn't as easy as it sounds. First, the cost of these cars is much more than most consumer's are willing to pay. GM and Honda believe they could be below $50,000 by 2015 if enough cars are ordered, but that would mean a ton more infrastructure. Right now, only 200 stations world-wide carry hydrogen and that is not nearly enough to fuel a change. California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger had proposed a network of stations up and down California called a "Hydrogen Highway" by 2010, but right now the state is far from that.

Jim Hossack, a consultant at Auto Pacific thinks it would be great to move away from fossil fuels, but believes we are a long way off since the cost of using petroleum can't be beat. He says, "I think its very wishful thinking that we could use hydrogen by 2015, it's already 2010, I expect as much change in the next five years as the last five years, in terms of alternative fuels it isn't a whole lot of change."

It does come down to price, but if our time sitting here at a Shell station in West Los Angeles is any indication, American's are at least interested in this idea more than before. One by one people come up and begin to ask for information about hydrogen. This pump that sat silent earlier this morning and likely has gone with little notice since it went in, now gets more action as people check it out. Is it the future? Well 2 years ago when gas prices spiked, people began to think about change and the BP spill seems to have fueled that curiosity even more.

According to Balch, "It certainly has fueled the anger to the use of petroleum and from our perspective we can't get off petroleum quick enough, I say that standing under a shell station, but yeah if anything it's just raised the debate about methods and urgency to get off the use of petroleum."

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/15/2010 at 02:29 PM
The other problem with Hydrogen is distribution.

But it is a good stop gap for clean energy, until the kinks of Nuclear Fusion are worked out.

The CERT Fusion reactor is currently being built in France. It should be the first fusion reactor to
produce more energy that it takes to start the fusion process.

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 6/15/2010 at 04:57 PM
I was taking a late lunch break today and saw a report on this on Fox News, with the reporter at a hydrogen filling station, and a hydrogen fuel-cell powered Chevy Equinox there to demonstrate on. They discussed all the stuff mentioned in the article.

They also pulled back and showed where the hydrogen comes from. On the roof of the station sat production equipment that took local water, used electricity to split it into its component parts via electrolysis, and then retained the hydrogen to fill the tank. Considering that production process, I wonder just how efficient a hydrogen car really is. After all, what's fueling the electrical plant?

Hydrogen may be the most abundant element in the universe, but it rarely is available in its basic form.

 

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  posted on 6/15/2010 at 11:50 PM
quote:
The other problem with Hydrogen is distribution.


I've thought that with LNG or Hydrogen fuel for cars and trucks it would make the most sense for fleet vehicles to convert to those fuels since they often fill-up in centralized locations. Like buses or delivery vehicles. Getting those vehicles off gasoline and diesel would be a small, but meaningful step in the right direction.

 

True Peach



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  posted on 6/16/2010 at 06:45 AM
Hydrogen is simply the most readily feasible alternative out there. At least at the moment. Conservative estimates (liberal ones, too!), are that we could totally convert in as little as 15 years.
Several automobile companies (mostly foreign) already have prototype models. There are several fuel stations (mostly in California, here in the U.S.).

President Obama alluded to the fact (last night's address) that the oil companies and their lobbyists have actively been fighting against hydrogen and other alt-fuels. I was so glad to at least hear him pay reference tho this fact. This is part of my political jadedness. "Big Oil" butters the bread of virtually EVERY viable candidate. They support both sides so that no matter who wins - they are beholden to "Big Oil".

If the matter of alternative automobile fuels had been tackled back in the '70s - like it SHOULD HAVE, we probably wouldn't have this mess in the Gulf of Mexico right now.

 

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People who believe in music are the happiest people I've ever seen.



Bill Ector, Randy Stephens, Dan Hills and a guy named BobO who I never met - Forever in my heart!

 

Universal Peach



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  posted on 6/16/2010 at 07:35 AM
As mentioned above, why use electricity to create hydrogen when the same electricity can power the car in the first place? You're basically adding an unneeded step in the process.

Now obviously electricity can be "dirty" depending upon how it's made, but from an efficiency stand point, hydrogen isn't the answer. And as we move to more clean, renewable electricity production (via solar, wind, expanded hydro, geothermal, nuclear fission and fusion), and utilize an already installed and more and more efficient infrastructure (smart grid), the lower costs of providing the electricity to our vehicles makes hydrogen less and less appealing. Until the process for creating and distributing hydrogen makes a huge breakthrough, it won't be cost effective of efficient to use it on a mass scale.

And keep in mind that Honda has pumped tons of money into its Hydrogen car and very little (comparatively speaking) into pure electrical and/or hybrid vehicles. They have a lot riding on hydrogen becoming the next big fuel.

 

True Peach



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  posted on 6/16/2010 at 07:57 AM
Not sure Chain. I'm still in the studying process, but I think that range (distance between recharge/refuel) might be a downside for a total electric vehicle.

Let me emphasize that I am not an expert. Every year I attend a conference (several, actually) where electric and hydrogen vehicles have been demonstrated.

A benefit of hydrogen - probably the one that draws the most fire from "Big Oil", coal and even electric utility companies is that one day you could power your home and car without their assistance. A total in-house system is completely plausible.

And since you brought it up - I don't care if cars are electric powered or hydrogen powered. Either will prevent messes like the one in the Gulf from occurring.

 

____________________
Music is love, and love is music, if you know what I mean.

People who believe in music are the happiest people I've ever seen.



Bill Ector, Randy Stephens, Dan Hills and a guy named BobO who I never met - Forever in my heart!

 

Universal Peach



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  posted on 6/16/2010 at 01:49 PM
It is the 'cost' of production that may be holding this back.
Further, do not be fooled by the 'ethanol' hoax. This is NOT the answer as it costs
20%+ more to produce, lowers gas mileage, and is harmful to most engines.
Maybe the technology will come thru for hydrogen to be a viable source. I wonder why
more nuclear plats have not been built...seemd to me that is the best way to go.
Oil and petroleum will always be needed for this nation but reduction of use would be of great benefit. The use in vehicles is not one of the problems...it's manufacturing goods that use oil based products. Plastic. Rubber.

 

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Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 6/16/2010 at 01:58 PM
However, hydrogen produces dihydrogen monoxide, which:

is called "hydroxyl acid", the substance is the major component of acid rain.

contributes to the "greenhouse effect".

may cause severe burns.

is fatal if inhaled.

contributes to the erosion of our natural landscape.

accelerates corrosion and rusting of many metals.

may cause electrical failures and decreased effectiveness of automobile brakes.

has been found in excised tumors of terminal cancer patients.

Despite the danger, dihydrogen monoxide is often used:

as an industrial solvent and coolant.

in nuclear power plants.

in the production of Styrofoam.

as a fire retardant.

in many forms of cruel animal research.

in the distribution of pesticides. Even after washing, produce remains contaminated by this chemical.

as an additive in certain "junk-foods" and other food products.

FFI, go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihydrogen_monoxide_hoax


Billastro

 

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Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 6/16/2010 at 03:08 PM
quote:
quote:
However, hydrogen produces dihydrogen monoxide, which:

is called "hydroxyl acid", the substance is the major component of acid rain.

contributes to the "greenhouse effect".

may cause severe burns.

is fatal if inhaled.

contributes to the erosion of our natural landscape.

accelerates corrosion and rusting of many metals.

may cause electrical failures and decreased effectiveness of automobile brakes.

has been found in excised tumors of terminal cancer patients.

Despite the danger, dihydrogen monoxide is often used:

as an industrial solvent and coolant.

in nuclear power plants.

in the production of Styrofoam.

as a fire retardant.

in many forms of cruel animal research.

in the distribution of pesticides. Even after washing, produce remains contaminated by this chemical.

as an additive in certain "junk-foods" and other food products.

FFI, go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihydrogen_monoxide_hoax


Billastro


Phew...Billastro. I thought you were serious about this one until I saw your link. I'm no chemist, but I know that dihydrogen monoxide is nothing more than water, LOL! H2O.

I was going to paste the same link to refute your claims...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihydrogen_monoxide_hoax




Billastro

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/16/2010 at 03:12 PM
Bill

Back and with a sense of humor to boot!

 

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World Class Peach



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  posted on 6/16/2010 at 09:01 PM
and it makes your voice all BeeGee like...
 

True Peach



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  posted on 6/16/2010 at 09:16 PM
There are some downsides to using hydrogen in transportation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F54rqDh2mWA

 

True Peach



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  posted on 6/17/2010 at 06:59 AM
There are downsides to any and every form of transportation fuel. The volatile nature of hydrogen is certainly a concern - especially at the pumps and in the event of a collision. The engineers that I work with assure me that these things can be worked around and that safety standards can be developed.

Two things that wont happen with hydrogen:

1. Young men and women will not have to go off and die in foreign countries to obtain it.
2. Coastal life and ways of life will never be endangered due to eruptions of hydrogen on the sea floor.

Whenever anything new (especially when it comes to energy) comes along, all the "Chicken Littles" line up. I was actually glad to hear President Obama address wind generated electricity during Tuesday's speech.

The stories of birds (most always cited as being endangered Condors) getting killed by wind turbines seem to always arise. As I mentioned in a thread (sometime during last year), I worked on a "green" energy video (actually, several of them) last year. We spent 4 weeks on the road visiting "wind farms". During this time, I never saw one single dead bird in the vicinity of a wind turbine. Not one.

I'm sure that on rare occasion, a bird or two might get killed. But these things are so tall (you'd have to stand next to one to appreciate how tall), it would take a very lost and confused bird of any kind to fly into one.

"What about those images that ______ posted of the dead birds at the windmill?", you might ask. They might be legit - they might be staged. "Who would stage something like this?", you might also ask. Proponents and politicians who have been "bought" by rival energy sources (consider coal and petroleum) have a vested interest in keeping new CLEAN technologies like wind, solar and even hydrogen out of the picture.

If you don't like hydrogen - fine. Feel free to select your own form of clean energy. You're going to need it one day because coal and petroleum are finite resources. They will be gone one day. The time has come to think of future generations. The time for viable alternate fuel sources is ... 1975.

 

____________________
Music is love, and love is music, if you know what I mean.

People who believe in music are the happiest people I've ever seen.



Bill Ector, Randy Stephens, Dan Hills and a guy named BobO who I never met - Forever in my heart!

 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 6/17/2010 at 09:11 AM
Thanks for this topic and your posts, Rusty. I, too, was so glad to hear the president say out loud what we have known forever!

We plan to go solar and wind all the way.

There was a documentary on HBO about electric cars that were leased to a few people. Each of the people loved his/her car. Each car was taken back and stored on a lot, behind a 10 ft. tall fence. The former leasers would, go and sit and look at the cars, wondering why they were not allowed to lease anymore and certainly not allowed to buy the car! Each ones' guestions went unanswered. My guess, ...Big Oil payed them lots of money to take those cars off the road and threatened to put them out of business. The things that big companies with big money can and will do, in an instant, when their livelyhood is threatened. To Big Oil, there is only one bandwagon, and it is Big Oil's.

 

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  posted on 6/17/2010 at 10:42 AM
Charlie, what the point was, is that vehicles are not the largest use of petroleum.
The manufacturing of goods and items we use in food containers, tires, toys, every
kind of utensil or building material, ect...uses far more than vehicles.
Why do you want to be such an **** ?

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 6/17/2010 at 12:02 PM
We all want to see this clean energy future, but the simple fact is that unless we are willing to pay many, many times what we pay now for gas, cars, and energy to power homes and businesses, then we're on fossil fuels for the foreseeable future. Probably well past the lifetimes of most of the people posting here.

And since others (China, many parts of the developing world) will continue to use fossil fuels, we can not just blaze our own path and maintain a stable economy unless our energy costs are reasonably in line with global competitors. Getting to that point with alternatives or green solutions is far more than simply forcing them in place, hoping economies of scale will bring costs in line. If that were true, then someone from the private sector would already be doing it, since whoever cracks that nut will own the future and the trillions in profit that will come therefrom.

The best we can do today is look toward domestic solutions that keep our economy competitive and our money closer to home. I'm not surprised, given the radical objectives of this administration, that the most obvious step - natural gas - doesn't even get mentioned. But it should. I was suspicious of the "Picken's Plan" when first announced, but it has merit. Transitioning our truck fleets to natural gas as a first step is the most practical strategy we could employ to reduce oil consumption. Its cleaner, its domestic, its focused, its achievable, and its manageable. But where's the commitment? All we get are speeches like the other night's, filled with vacuous rhetoric and no plan.

Much as we might like to, we're not getting off of fossil fuels any time remotely soon. A sensible plan that bridges us to that future is sorely needed.

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 6/17/2010 at 12:11 PM
I think I'm worth every penny it takes. We pay to dirty things up, now we can pay to clean them up and to keep them that way. It is our responsibility as human beings.

 

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True Peach



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  posted on 6/17/2010 at 12:21 PM
Costs aside, the time to start development is now. Those fossil fuels WILL go away - maybe not in our lifetimes, but soon enough. I mean, we could just sit around and wait until they're gone before we get resourceful. Oh, wait! We already are. Never mind.

But seriously, as new technologies develop, prices tend to come down. I am sure that his will be the case with hydrogen - or whatever new fuel systems that may come about. Bottom line - it HAS to happen.

 

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Music is love, and love is music, if you know what I mean.

People who believe in music are the happiest people I've ever seen.



Bill Ector, Randy Stephens, Dan Hills and a guy named BobO who I never met - Forever in my heart!

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 6/17/2010 at 12:34 PM
quote:
Thanks for this topic and your posts, Rusty. I, too, was so glad to hear the president say out loud what we have known forever!

We plan to go solar and wind all the way.

There was a documentary on HBO about electric cars that were leased to a few people. Each of the people loved his/her car. Each car was taken back and stored on a lot, behind a 10 ft. tall fence. The former leasers would, go and sit and look at the cars, wondering why they were not allowed to lease anymore and certainly not allowed to buy the car! Each ones' guestions went unanswered. My guess, ...Big Oil payed them lots of money to take those cars off the road and threatened to put them out of business. The things that big companies with big money can and will do, in an instant, when their livelyhood is threatened. To Big Oil, there is only one bandwagon, and it is Big Oil's.


I have to think you're talking about Who Killed The Electric Car?

http://www.netflix.com/Movie/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car/70052424

Here is more info. on the EV1 electric car:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1

Kind of a heartbreaking movie - I agree, it seems as simple as the oil lobby or whatever it's called shutting down that scene.

quote:
We plan to go solar and wind all the way.


Right on!

 

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  posted on 6/17/2010 at 12:35 PM
quote:
All we get are speeches like the other night's, filled with vacuous rhetoric and no plan.



He mentions alternatives to begin with and you pass scorn because he's taking advantage of the crisis to advance his evil energy agenda.

But, since he did mention them, you pass scorn because he didn't mention the right ones or the right plan with exact details of that evil energy agenda.

Give. Me. A. F*cking. Break.

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 6/17/2010 at 01:09 PM
quote:
quote:
All we get are speeches like the other night's, filled with vacuous rhetoric and no plan.

He mentions alternatives to begin with and you pass scorn because he's taking advantage of the crisis to advance his evil energy agenda.

But, since he did mention them, you pass scorn because he didn't mention the right ones or the right plan with exact details of that evil energy agenda.

Give. Me. A. F*cking. Break.
Give. Yourself. A. F*cking. Break.

You seem far more in need than I, offering knee-jerk defenses for this boob at the slightest negative comment.

Even the Obama asskissers on MSNBC, the NYT's, and many others on the left decried his lack of "how" in the speech the other night, and his obvious poor management skills. How can this come as some surprise from someone who never managed or ran anything in his life before?

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/17/2010 at 01:17 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
All we get are speeches like the other night's, filled with vacuous rhetoric and no plan.

He mentions alternatives to begin with and you pass scorn because he's taking advantage of the crisis to advance his evil energy agenda.

But, since he did mention them, you pass scorn because he didn't mention the right ones or the right plan with exact details of that evil energy agenda.

Give. Me. A. F*cking. Break.
Give. Yourself. A. F*cking. Break.

You seem far more in need than I, offering knee-jerk defenses for this boob at the slightest negative comment.

Even the Obama asskissers on MSNBC, the NYT's, and many others on the left decried his lack of "how" in the speech the other night, and his obvious poor management skills. How can this come as some surprise from someone who never managed or ran anything in his life before?


This "boob" got BP to pledge $20 BILLION dollars to help the "small people." I'd say that's a decent accomplishment. As a matter of fact, he did that by sitting down with the heads of BP and discussing it in a calm, respectful manner, which is exactly what YOU bagged on him for NOT doing just a few short days ago. If Obama is so weak with no skills, why didn't BP tell him to go f*ck himself?

I don't give a $hit what MSNBC or the NYT say, Rich. I could care less, and, besides, why get pi$$ed at me? If I'm so wrong about the guy then you should be laughing at me, not getting mad, right?

You go on ahead and keep dissecting the speeches. I prefer to watch actual actions.

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 6/17/2010 at 02:06 PM
quote:
I could care less, and, besides, why get pi$$ed at me?
What evidence shows that I'm pissed at you? I just used your own phrase back at you for goodness sakes. The famous Bhawk sensitivity strikes again!

quote:
I prefer to watch actual actions.
So then everything's dandy because he got a pledge of money from BP, but spent the first two months mostly acting as an absent landlord, showing up for a few photo-ops when necessary. Interesting judgement on what actions are important or not. I'd say your opinion is in the minority compared to the almost all media sources, and polls of US citizens.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/17/2010 at 02:10 PM
quote:
What evidence shows that I'm pissed at you? I just used your own phrase back at you for goodness sakes. The famous Bhawk sensitivity strikes again!



LOL...never mad once here. Funny you read it that way.

quote:
So then everything's dandy because he got a pledge of money from BP, but spent the first two months mostly acting as an absent landlord, showing up for a few photo-ops when necessary. Interesting judgement on what actions are important or not. I'd say your opinion is in the minority compared to the almost all media sources, and polls of US citizens.


So what if my opinion is? I don't care.

Funny how much of my last response you avoided. I'm sure the idea of a corporation losing money to the small people brought a tear to your eye, huh?

 

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