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Author: Subject: Who can watch this and not see a war crime?

Extreme Peach





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  posted on 4/5/2010 at 06:28 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0&feature=player_embedded

Flat-out murder, and then laughing about it. This is a crying shame.

 
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Extreme Peach



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  posted on 4/5/2010 at 06:48 PM
http://www.boingboing.net/2010/04/05/wikileaks-video-of-u.html

A little run-down, in case the other link was too long or something.

 

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  posted on 4/5/2010 at 08:02 PM
quote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0&feature=player_embedde d

Flat-out murder, and then laughing about it. This is a crying shame.


Wow. Whats really amazing is how absolutely blind these helicopter pilots were...RPGs? I saw one rifle and those are as common as dirt there. Im also amazed at how indiscriminate the killing seems to be. I hope this is investigated. Pretty damn horrible.

 

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  posted on 4/5/2010 at 08:14 PM
You send people into a war that won't end serving tour after tour of duty , especially when you were national guard or were regular army slated to have gone home years before and you get the animal behavior the government has created. I fault the policy makers, not the soldiers who have lost sight of the lines of decency.

 

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  posted on 4/5/2010 at 08:16 PM
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0&feature=play er_embedded

Flat-out murder, and then laughing about it. This is a crying shame.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----



Wow. Whats really amazing is how absolutely blind these helicopter pilots were...RPGs? I saw one rifle and those are as common as dirt there. Im also amazed at how indiscriminate the killing seems to be. I hope this is investigated. Pretty damn horrible.




Ugly video, for sure. Although the first guy is definitely carrying a weapon, and other journalists are now coming out, as per ABC News tonight, to put the incident in the greater context of that day and the battles in that area. But, the follow up killing seems blatantly unnecessary and I don't like that two journalists were killed as well.

But funny how this works. Troops under Obama's command killed twice as many civilians on February 23rd, during a ten day period where three seperate incidents of civilians were killed, and nothing about it from you. Twice as many civilians, 27, were slaughtered by Obama's troops and zero response or mention??

quote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/22/AR201 0022200842.html


U.S. airstrike kills at least 27 Afghan civilians

By Joshua Partlow and Rajiv Chandrasekaran
Tuesday, February 23, 2010

QALAT, AFGHANISTAN -- A U.S. airstrike targeting a convoy of buses traveling in southern Afghanistan killed at least 27 civilians and wounded a dozen more in a bombing that could fuel a political backlash against the ongoing military offensive in Afghanistan.

...McChrystal, held a video conference Monday morning with task force and regional commanders across the country to remind commanders about the need for "the judicious application of fire," according to a senior military official. "There was no danger to coalition forces" in the attack on the convoy, the official said.


Where were you when this happened but a couple of months ago? Twice as many civilians killed under Obama's command in this single episode compared to what you posted above and not a peep??

What are your thoughts on the above civilian slaughter??

 

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  posted on 4/5/2010 at 08:19 PM
If this is customary, I can see how many civilians who are killed go unreported. I have nothing but the highest level of respect for our military, but they really need to do a better job of target identification and verification.

Their attitudes and statements over the air are callous, but I don't blame them for that. Had these been actual terrorists that they killed, I wouldn't have had a problem with their dialogue at all. Because the casualties are innocent civilians, their radio conversation makes them sound like callous killers.

I don't know that I would be so quick to assume it's a war crime. They may have had intelligence coupled with the video that gave them a very strong reason to believe that these people were armed insurgents. I will give them that benefit of the doubt until I hear or see something that contradicts it.



Mike

[Edited on 4/6/2010 by Mike]

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 4/5/2010 at 08:40 PM
quote:
Ugly video, for sure. Although the first guy is definitely carrying a weapon, and other journalists are now coming out, as per ABC News tonight, to put the incident in the greater context of that day and the battles in that area. But, the follow up killing seems blatantly unnecessary and I don't like that two journalists were killed as well.


Wow, a reasoned response from you. Did someone hack Dereks account?

quote:
But funny how this works. Troops under Obama's command killed twice as many civilians on February 23rd, during a ten day period where three seperate incidents of civilians were killed, and nothing about it from you. Twice as many civilians, 27, were slaughtered by Obama's troops and zero response or mention??


Part of the issue is simply that you equate this sort of thing with the really ugly issues that I have protested like Haditha (wheres your condemnation of that 'civilian slaughter'?). Your ability for false equivalence is stunning. ALL civilian deaths are horrible ALL. As Ive said a thousand times. That said, intentional acts by SOME soldiers is the real crime that Ive objected to all the time. You continually and regularly distort my position. Its what you do. Its why youre the most dishonest SOB here.

quote:
Where were you when this happened but a couple of months ago? Twice as many civilians killed under Obama's command in this single episode compared to what you posted above and not a peep??


False equivalence is still false. What part of ALL Civilian deaths (collateral damage) are horrible do you still not understand? Im not going to bitch about 'accidents'. Haditha and other incidents we have had in the past werent accidents.

quote:
What are your thoughts on the above civilian slaughter??


Pretty damn horrible. Interestingly enough, under Bush, these would have been "insurgents" to you. Far as I can tell, you have NEVER acknowledged that the military under Obama has really gone after the Taliban and other terrorists elements. Their record is pretty impressive. Why is that?

Since all dead people are apparently equal now, what are your thoughts on the Haditha civilian slaughter?

 

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Extreme Peach



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  posted on 4/5/2010 at 08:43 PM
quote:
I don't know that I would be so quick to assume it's a war crime. They may have had intelligence coupled with the video that gave them a very strong reason to believe that these people were armed insurgents. I will give them that benefit of the doubt until I hear or see something that contradicts it.


Mike, you're right, I was too quick to throw out the "war crime" terminology. I am not a WP regular (and from what I've seen from afar, I'm not at all surprised to see others reverting to old grudges amongst themselves).. I'm just saying, goddamn, this is horrible!

 

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  posted on 4/5/2010 at 09:11 PM
quote:
I don't know that I would be so quick to assume it's a war crime. They may have had intelligence coupled with the video that gave them a very strong reason to believe that these people were armed insurgents. I will give them that benefit of the doubt until I hear or see something that contradicts it.


Did you watch the video? Theres one rifle I saw out of 8-10 people. Im no military threat expert, but a rifle in a land where every male carries one doesnt = a bunch of insurgents doing something. As for the alleged RPG, I didnt see it in the video so Im not sure where they got that idea considering they were using the same video feed made available through the FOIA request. Im not saying its not there, but that I didnt see it. As for the issue of intelligence, I would say it was pretty **** ing wrong considering two reporters were among the dead.

 

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  posted on 4/5/2010 at 09:17 PM
quote:
quote:
I don't know that I would be so quick to assume it's a war crime. They may have had intelligence coupled with the video that gave them a very strong reason to believe that these people were armed insurgents. I will give them that benefit of the doubt until I hear or see something that contradicts it.


Did you watch the video? Theres one rifle I saw out of 8-10 people. Im no military threat expert, but a rifle in a land where every male carries one doesnt = a bunch of insurgents doing something. As for the alleged RPG, I didnt see it in the video so Im not sure where they got that idea considering they were using the same video feed made available through the FOIA request. Im not saying its not there, but that I didnt see it. As for the issue of intelligence, I would say it was pretty **** ing wrong considering two reporters were among the dead.


I don't disagree about any possible intelligence, but the reports that I read did say that there had been much conflict in that area. Personally, I have trouble making out a rifle vs. a camera vs. a 3 foot dildo on that video. He could have been carrying anything, but was obviously assumed to be carrying a weapon. Yes, many, if not most, over there carry weapons according to what we see on TV. When I say I am not so quick to condemn until all the facts are out, I am trying to keep an open mind. What if this was a secure location and the only non-soldiers in the area were insurgents? What if there had been insurgents in the very same area only minutes before - fostering confusion. I think anything could have happened. Most likely, it was just poor target verification.

Tragic no matter what went down.


Mike

 

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  posted on 4/5/2010 at 09:26 PM
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----
I don't know that I would be so quick to assume it's a war crime. They may have had intelligence coupled with the video that gave them a very strong reason to believe that these people were armed insurgents. I will give them that benefit of the doubt until I hear or see something that contradicts it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----



Did you watch the video? Theres one rifle I saw out of 8-10 people. Im no military threat expert, but a rifle in a land where every male carries one doesnt = a bunch of insurgents doing something.


And there were zero guns with the 27civilians that were slaughtered undr Obama's watch, and you don't give a damn because you never mention it at all since Obama took office. All of a sudden some footage comes up from 2007 with less people killed, and low and behold, here you come. It's different now. Its Obama. It's pathetic.

quote:
I don't disagree about any possible intelligence, but the reports that I read did say that there had been much conflict in that area. Personally, I have trouble making out a rifle vs. a camera vs. a 3 foot dildo on that video. He could have been carrying anything, but was obviously assumed to be carrying a weapon. Yes, many, if not most, over there carry weapons according to what we see on TV. When I say I am not so quick to condemn until all the facts are out, I am trying to keep an open mind. What if this was a secure location and the only non-soldiers in the area were insurgents? What if there had been insurgents in the very same area only minutes before - fostering confusion. I think anything could have happened. Most likely, it was just poor target verification.

Tragic no matter what went down.



Sounds like a reasonable non-automatically-anti-soldier assessment. It also sucked when troops under Obama's command ordered the blowing up of the gasoline tankers in a civilian neighborhood. But, it's different now. It's Obama. But hey, way back in 2007............

 

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  posted on 4/5/2010 at 09:31 PM
quote:
What are your thoughts on the above civilian slaughter??


Perfectly good example of what pisses me off in these killings... Spec. Forces troops digging the bullets out of dead women to cover up what happened along with other 'evidence tampering'. Accidents and innocents being killed happen all the time and are unspeakable and horrible but things like this are intentional, deliberate, illegal, immoral and wrong.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/05/world/asia/05afghan.html

Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal, the American and NATO commander in Afghanistan, has tried hard, and with some success, to reduce civilian casualties through new rules that include restricting night raids and also bringing Special Operations forces under tighter control. But botched Special Operations attacks -- which are blamed for a large proportion of the civilian deaths caused by NATO forces -- continue to infuriate Afghans and create support for the Taliban.

 

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  posted on 4/5/2010 at 11:08 PM
quote:
quote:
I don't know that I would be so quick to assume it's a war crime. They may have had intelligence coupled with the video that gave them a very strong reason to believe that these people were armed insurgents. I will give them that benefit of the doubt until I hear or see something that contradicts it.


Mike, you're right, I was too quick to throw out the "war crime" terminology. I am not a WP regular (and from what I've seen from afar, I'm not at all surprised to see others reverting to old grudges amongst themselves).. I'm just saying, goddamn, this is horrible!


"War is all hell"-William Tecumseh Sherman

 

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  posted on 4/5/2010 at 11:43 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
I don't know that I would be so quick to assume it's a war crime. They may have had intelligence coupled with the video that gave them a very strong reason to believe that these people were armed insurgents. I will give them that benefit of the doubt until I hear or see something that contradicts it.


Mike, you're right, I was too quick to throw out the "war crime" terminology. I am not a WP regular (and from what I've seen from afar, I'm not at all surprised to see others reverting to old grudges amongst themselves).. I'm just saying, goddamn, this is horrible!


"War is all hell"-William Tecumseh Sherman


Yet on Civil War battlefields they stopped shooting long enough for the wounded to be taken from the field.

 

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  posted on 4/6/2010 at 12:11 AM
War does not determine who is right - only who is left. ~Bertrand Russell

 

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  posted on 4/6/2010 at 08:45 AM
Interesting topic. I donít think this is a war crime at all or flat out murder. Seems to be a case of mistaken identity. Itís war and this sort of stuff happens. Yes, itís horrible. They should not cover it up, but make amends. Our pilots, Marines, soldiers, are not infallible. However, before we start calling them blind or start demonizing the pilots, perhaps we should each try flying a few missions in Iraq and Afghanistan and see how easy it is to determine who is friendly and who is holding what. I would bet, like many of my friends, these guys will wake up in the middle of the night for years to come and be mortified. While they may sound macho, I would bet it weighs heavily on their constitutions. Unfortunately, when you are fighting an enemy that blends with the civilian population, this sort of thing is bound to happen.
 

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  posted on 4/6/2010 at 09:24 AM
The first shooting with not knowing how well armed, camera or RPG, still looks pretty brutal, of course.

Don't get the destroying the van part, but I'm not in the military and I have no clue as to how or what the trained reactions are of people in that situation.

 

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  posted on 4/6/2010 at 09:43 AM
quote:
War does not determine who is right - only who is left. ~Bertrand Russell



I don't remember who originally said it, but a quote I heard many years ago has stayed with me for some reason or the other.

"War is murder writ large."

 

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  posted on 4/6/2010 at 09:49 AM
While I find this video disgusting and sickening, I agree with jim. If you are going to teach people to be animals, and then send them into a situation where they have to be animals, don't complain when they act like animals. Unless we've been there, we don't know sh*t.

Bring our troops home, and stop the senseless killing.

 

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  posted on 4/6/2010 at 10:06 AM
you had over anxious pilots, you had a group of unknowns standing around in a group with what looked like an RPG. What are you supposed to do, fly low enough so you can get blown up?
The van that pulled up looked suspicious as well, not once was anyone informed that a vehicle was showing up. To me, it looked like terrorists helping terrorists.
It's war folks, it happens.

 

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  posted on 4/6/2010 at 10:10 AM
quote:
While I find this video disgusting and sickening, I agree with jim. If you are going to teach people to be animals, and then send them into a situation where they have to be animals, don't complain when they act like animals. Unless we've been there, we don't know sh*t.

Bring our troops home, and stop the senseless killing.


I'm no veteran, but I don't think many military commanders would admit that they want a bunch of "animals" under their command.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 4/6/2010 at 10:11 AM
To me, it looked like a family trying desperately to get a wounded friend or family member into a van to try to get him to a doctor. I find it hard to believe that terrorists take young girls on shooting forays with them.

You could definitely tell the change in demeanor in the guys in the helicopter when they were now watching American soldiers trying to save the people they just shot up, joking about it as they did it.

War isn't hell. War is a stupid, f*cked up way to solve differences, and it blows my mind that we still engage in it. We're a primitive, barbaric race, whether we want to admit it or not.

 

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  posted on 4/6/2010 at 10:18 AM
I would like to share part of an email one of my good friends sent to me back in 2004 . He fought Al Qeada and other foreign fighters daily, many times up close, even hand to hand. You can even see where he mentions the brutality he has seen. He was not at Fallujah, but rather up north and always joked that Fallujah was like childís play compared to what he went through further north on the Syrian border. He was awarded the Bronze Star with Combat V, and also performed the medivac on Cpl. Dunham who was awarded the CMH posthumously for his actions when he dove on a grenade to save his fellow Marines. He is even mentioned in a book called Gift of Valor which is about Dunham. I have had long conversations with him (I really just listen) about his experience. While he is a tough mother, he often breaks down and cries because itís too emotional for him. We should be aware what these guys go through and what they put on the line before we start calling them murderers or war criminals. My friend is speaking specifically about an incident that happened where a Marine was caught on camera killing a severely wounded enemy fighter in Fallujah. There was, at the time, outrage over this incident as well. You can see the bravado in his email, but I can tell you, this guy is very emotional about his time in Iraq and often is reduced to tears. He is to the point where he canít even get together with some of his fellow veteran Marines because it is too much for him. Here is a an excerpt from his email:

Me and my Marines have been involved with 7-12 insurgents that were injured and that had grenades on them. Instead of wondering, we killed all of them, so we eliminated even knowing if they had anything. Funny, they all did. They killed one of us and injured too many. How are we able to blame a 20 year man for killing a terrorist in Fallujah? Understand these people are not, me and you. They want to see your legs, arms, guts, not on your body, blown to piecesÖ like it or not, itís true. Understand, we Marines don't care if you support us or not. We are real MEN, and we are on this earth to destroy the Evil. Sorry, Iraq and all rest of them. God Bless America and Semper Fidelis. I understand in every aspect what these Marines went though. If you have any questions, call me. Understand you have NOOOO idea what itís like. Even if you have been with us in the 1st Phase(last year), you have no idea what brutality we have been through.



 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 4/6/2010 at 10:19 AM
quote:
I find it hard to believe that terrorists take young girls on shooting forays with them.



They just load them with explosives instead. See Moscow from just last week.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 4/6/2010 at 10:25 AM
quote:
quote:
I find it hard to believe that terrorists take young girls on shooting forays with them.



They just load them with explosives instead. See Moscow from just last week.


Is that what you saw on the video?

 

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