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Author: Subject: 2nd amendment

World Class Peach



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  posted on 10/22/2008 at 09:47 AM
Long post aiq, but informative. While it does give examples of where Obama voted against the enactment of a state law that would not make criminals out of homeowners who defended themselves with a firearm in areas that restrict the ownership of firearms (SB2165), it seems to try and make him the hero by claiming it gave gun owners a "loophole". Why did they use the March 24, 2004 date, and not give the three other times he voted against the bill.
This is the public act that came from the bill SB2165

Public Act 093-1048

SB1265 Enrolled LRB093 15639 RLC 41247 b

AN ACT concerning criminal law.

Be it enacted by the People of the State of Illisnois,
represented in the General Assembly:


Section 5. The Criminal Code of 1961 is amended by adding
Section 24-10 as follows:

(720 ILCS 5/24-10 new)
Sec. 24-10. Municipal ordinance regulating firearms:
affirmative defense to a violation. It is an affirmative
defense to a violation of a municipal ordinance that prohibits,
regulates, or restricts the private ownership of firearms if
the individual who is charged with the violation used the
firearm in an act of self-defense or defense of another as
defined in Sections 7-1 and 7-2 of this Code when on his or her
land or in his or her abode or fixed place of business.

Section 99. Effective date. This Act takes effect upon
becomeing law.

Now, why would Obama, being the "gun owner friendly" guy that he is, vote against this bill FOUR times?

More later on what the lawmakers define as "assault weapons".

 

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Universal Peach



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  posted on 10/22/2008 at 02:40 PM
Anyone should have the right to legally own any type of firearm in this country.
It is only when an individual performs illegal acts should that person be restricted
or banned from ownership. Legal and responsible ownership for hunting, personal protection, shooting sports, or just to have one should be an individuals choice.
This should include any ammunition as well.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 10/22/2008 at 02:54 PM
No you don't, Otie. They tear up the meat too badly.

 

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True Peach



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  posted on 10/22/2008 at 02:58 PM
quote:
No you don't, Otie. They tear up the meat too badly.



They make an impressive "boom" on New Years and The 4th of July........ Dogs will assume the position immediately after hearing one of those babies go off.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 10/22/2008 at 03:00 PM
quote:
No, Big Dave. It's for personal protection. Nobody is going to eff with me if that thing is sticking out my window.
You got THAT right!

 

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World Class Peach



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  posted on 10/22/2008 at 05:00 PM
quote:
OK, Ryde, we disagree, although probably not as much as we think we do. I try to understand where you come from, how you feel because of what your people have endured, but I have never walked a mile in your shoes. When I was growing up, all of the TV shows and movies depicted the Indians as bad guys who just wanted to kill us white people. Even in school we were taught that people like Custer were heroes and Sitting Bull and Geronimo were merciless killers. As I grew older and learned more I came to see how we had mistreated the Native Americans. I don't know if this makes any sense to you, but you and I came from completely different cultures. I try to understand where you are coming from, but your life is totally foreign to me. That's a gap that I would like to bridge.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to discuss this.


I too would love to sit on the porch over a few beers looking at the Clearwater river and bridge our gap as well... It is a gap that is not as wide as people think but it is there. I can only base my ideas and opinions on the life i live and have lived and you are right about geronimo,Sitting bull, Chief Joseph, and many others our my heros they fought against staggering odds for their homes their wives and children, and their beloved land.

The differences in us are really small we are both people searching for their path in life skin color has nothing to do with it,just the fact that we can have a heated conversation and still be respectfull of each other shows our differences are small.. thank you for the insight into your life.. peace

 

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World Class Peach



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  posted on 10/22/2008 at 11:56 PM
Since this is a really long post, I'm just going to put up the full text of SB1195, the "Assault Weapons Ban" that Obama voted for.
Read through the whole thing and see if any firearms you know of would be affected.

LRB093 10905 LRD 11424 b

AN ACT in relation to criminal law.

Be it enacted by the People of the State of Illinois, represented by the General Assembly:

Section 5. The Criminal Code of 1961 is amended by adding Section 24-1.7 as follows:

(720 ILCS 5/24-1.7 new)

Sec. 24-1.7. Manufacture, posession, and delivery of semiautomatic assault weapons, large capacity ammunition feeding devices, and assault weapon attachments.
(a) Th e General Assembly finds that the high rate of fire and capacity for firepower of semiautomatic assault weapons, assault weapon attachments, and large capacity ammunition feeding devices pose a significant threat to the health, safety, and welfare of the citizens of this State., that the use of these weapons, devices, or attachments for sport or recreation is substantially outweighed by the danger these weapons or devices present to human life, and that restrictions should therefore be placed on the manufacture, delivery, and posession of these weapons, devices, and attachments.
(b) Definitions. In this Section:
(1) "Semi-automatic assault weapon" means:
(A) any of the firearms or types, replicas, or duplicates in any caliber of the firearms, known as:
(i) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalishnakovs (all models);
(ii) Action arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil;
(iii) Berreta AR-70 (SC-70)
(iv) Colt AR-15;
(v) Fabrike National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC;
(vi) SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9, and M-12;
(vii) Steyr AUG;
(viii) Intratec Tec-9, TEC-DC9, and TEC-22;
and (ix) any shotgun which contains it's ammunition in a revolving cylinder, such as (but not limited to) the Street Sweeper and Stryker 12
(x) any firearm having a caliber of 50 or greater;

(B) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has any of the following
(i) a folding or telescopic stock;
(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
(iii) a bayonet mount;
(iv) a flash suppressor or barrel having a threaded muzzle;
(v) a grenade launcher; OR
(C) a semi-automatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has any of the following:
(i) a magazine that attaches to the pistol outside the pistol grip;
(ii) a barrel having a threaded muzzle;
(iii) a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles the barrel, and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the non-trigger hand without being burned;
(iv) a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded; or
(D) a semi-automatic shotgun that has any of the following:
(i) a folding or telescopic stock;
(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; or
(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine.

"Semi-Automatic assault weapon" does not include:
(A) any firearm that:
(i) is manually operated by bolt, pump, lever, or slide action;
(ii) is is an "unservicable firearm" or has been made permanently inoperable; or
(B) any semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than 5 rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine.

(2) (A) "Large capacity ammunition feeding device" means:
(i) a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device that has a capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than 10 rounds of ammunition; or
(ii) any combination of parts from which a device described in subparagraph (i) can be assembled.
(B) "Large capacity ammunition feeding device" does not include an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating only with, .22 caliber rimfire ammunition, or any device that has been permanently inoperable.

(3) "Assault weapon attachment" means any device capable of being attached to a firearm that is specificaly designed for making or converting a firearm into any of the firearms listed in paragraph (i) of subsection (b) of this section.

(4) "Antique firearm" means;
(A) any firearm, including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system, manufactured in or before 4898, or
(B) any repilica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if the replica:
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional cenerfire fixed ammunition; or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the normal channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any firearm (other than a machine gun), which, although designed as a weapon, the Department of State Police finds by reason of the date of it's manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector's item and is not likely to be used as a weapon.

The rest is basically the same as other laws, it gives the date of enforcement, level of criminality, and lists fines and/or punishment.

Anybody see some of the "slightly vague" wording that gives an aggressive Police Chief or DA
a lot to work with.

Anybody see in there how a simple act of just changing the stock of your firearm turns it from a "good" gun to an assault weapon?

Can someone name some of the highly prized semi-auto pistols that have "an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip"?

How many magazine fed semi-auto rifles do not have the ability to accept magazines that hold more than 10 rounds?

AND, Obama says he wants to expand this.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 10/23/2008 at 12:08 AM
quote:
Anyone should have the right to legally own any type of firearm in this country.
It is only when an individual performs illegal acts should that person be restricted
or banned from ownership. Legal and responsible ownership for hunting, personal protection, shooting sports, or just to have one should be an individuals choice.
This should include any ammunition as well.



So we should wait until they shoot up a mall, or a school before it is taken away from them??

And if anyone needs a semi automatic for hunting, perhaps you need to take up another hobby

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 10/23/2008 at 12:17 AM
quote:


And if anyone needs a semi automatic for hunting, perhaps you need to take up another hobby



shooting space vampires?

 

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World Class Peach



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  posted on 10/23/2008 at 01:14 AM
quote:
And if anyone needs a semi automatic for hunting, perhaps you need to take up another hobby


The 2nd Amendment isn't about hunting, but now that you bring it up, many hunting guns are semi-auto.

 

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Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 10/23/2008 at 08:11 AM
I fully support our right to arm bears.

Sorry, with regard to this, I feel very strongly both ways, but have never owned a gun and was feeling left out.

 

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World Class Peach



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  posted on 10/23/2008 at 09:19 AM
quote:
quote:
Anyone should have the right to legally own any type of firearm in this country.
It is only when an individual performs illegal acts should that person be restricted
or banned from ownership. Legal and responsible ownership for hunting, personal protection, shooting sports, or just to have one should be an individuals choice.
This should include any ammunition as well.



So we should wait until they shoot up a mall, or a school before it is taken away from them??

And if anyone needs a semi automatic for hunting, perhaps you need to take up another hobby


So you are saying anyone with one of these guns is going to shoot up a mall or a school etc etc ? HMMMM so with your reason we should ban for millions because of the actions of a few.... yeah ok i got it... and there are alot of reasons to have simi automatic weapons for hunting no not make me list them and further make your post look less than sane.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 10/23/2008 at 09:24 AM
I am mainly responding to this..

quote:
It is only when an individual performs illegal acts should that person be restricted
or banned from ownership


So again.. we wait until someone does something horrific to restrict them??

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 10/23/2008 at 09:27 AM
It is simpler than that. Some have issue with you wanting to restrict anything based on it being a right given in the constitution and all.
 

World Class Peach



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  posted on 10/23/2008 at 09:30 AM
I understand your concern but maybe try looking in another area like our judicial system in this country crime pays! it shouldn't. Make going to prison bad enough and people will quit going there now they think why not 3 sqaures a day full medical dental,TV new Nike's and they won't have to stay long! I agree whole heartly that any rampage shooting is bad for the world not just our country but i can not see making all of the people who DO follow the laws of this land pay for the actions of those that do not.

[Edited on 10/23/2008 by Rydethwind]

 

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Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 10/23/2008 at 09:37 AM
quote:
I am mainly responding to this..

quote:
It is only when an individual performs illegal acts should that person be restricted
or banned from ownership


So again.. we wait until someone does something horrific to restrict them??


Yeah, it's kind of like warning both benches after a pitcher beans someone.


 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 10/23/2008 at 09:38 AM
So we give everyone a gun without any restrictions and hope they use it responsibly??

Unless you live in a ghetto, I just dont see the point in having one.

But thats just my opinion for what thats worth..

But I agree with you about the prison system.. freakin sad state of affairs there.

[Edited on 10/23/2008 by WharfRat]

 

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World Class Peach



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  posted on 10/23/2008 at 09:55 AM
quote:
So we give everyone a gun without any restrictions and hope they use it responsibly??

Unless you live in a ghetto, I just dont see the point in having one.

But thats just my opinion for what thats worth..

But I agree with you about the prison system.. freakin sad state of affairs there.

[Edited on 10/23/2008 by WharfRat]


We teach everyone from childhood that guns are a responsibility and a tool ,they have a place like any other tool. Today we only hear how bad guns are (because of the actions of a few) instead teach responsibility, my children grew up with loaded guns around the house and NEVER touched them or even thought of playing with them, when their friends came over they too knew they were not allowed in certain parts of the house but that is out west where that is a way of living.

I got my first gun when i was 10 and i was allowed to roam within a few miles of home to hunt with it but i was also taught it was not a plaything it was a tool i had to shell a gunnysack of black wallnuts to get 2.40 cents to get a box of 410 ammo and all of this is from a single mom yes my mother taught me gun responsibility! and she taught me much more if i brought it home she would cook it and i was expected to eat it ,she taught me not to take lives of anything unless it was for food or benifet in some way and now my mother lives with me and i am helping her such is the way of life everything is a circle.

We just have to change our approach to teaching children about guns teach them the truth it is not the guns that are bad it is the people who use them to do bad things with them and they are the ones who should be made to pay.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 10/23/2008 at 10:00 AM
Mike, I fully understand where you are coming from.
Unfortunately, there are many who didn't have the same upbringing.
Therefore they dont have the respect for them.

I suppose this is a culture thing. I live in NJ and have all my life.
And I have never held a gun , and have no desire to.

 

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Universal Peach



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  posted on 10/23/2008 at 10:31 AM
C'mon Warfie....what if it was a baseball bat we were discussing? Dont allow people to have 'em for fear of them beating someone's brains out? Or how about a car? They kill 100's more people than any firearm. What happened to "innocent until proven guilty"?
Own a firearm and you're going to kill someone? That is absurd. If I want a tank, I should have the right to own one and use it responsibly. This is an exaggeration...but you get my point here? Legal, responsible, gun ownership is a good thing.
As I have said before...gun owner=citizen........no gun rights=subject.

Outlaw firearms and only criminals will have 'em.

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 10/23/2008 at 11:39 AM
And neither cars nor baseball bats are mentioned in the constitution.
 

Peach Pro



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  posted on 10/23/2008 at 12:05 PM
quote:
quote:
Anyone should have the right to legally own any type of firearm in this country.
It is only when an individual performs illegal acts should that person be restricted
or banned from ownership. Legal and responsible ownership for hunting, personal protection, shooting sports, or just to have one should be an individuals choice.
This should include any ammunition as well.



So we should wait until they shoot up a mall, or a school before it is taken away from them??

And if anyone needs a semi automatic for hunting, perhaps you need to take up another hobby


I've successfuly stayed out of this debate, so far, but I do have to offer a few comments/personal opinions:

1) I am 100% against any type of ban - while I don't personally see the need for certain types of firearms to be available to everyone, I can't/won't support any type of ban until the govt can guarantee that these types of fireams will be kept out of the hands of criminals - they can't (and many of the black-market firearms out there came from OUR military bases).

2) Some of the problem might be attributable to the fact that malls and schools are "gun free zones". Unfortunately, criminals don't respect that fact, so the malls/schools are really only gun free zones for law abiding citizens. Ask yourself, why do these do these types of incidents always seem to occur in schools, malls, etc...? Could it be that the shooter(s) knows that there will be no one there to shoot back? I believe that fact at least contributes. Look at Virginia Tech, if students/teachers had been allowed to legally carry legal (or registered) firearms on campus, I personally believe that there would have been fewer casualties (saving 10, 15, or even possibly 20 lives) - if the incident still occurred at all.

3) I own firearms, I will continue to own firearms and I have been known to use a semi-automatic shotgun when dove/duck hunting. What's wrong with that??? Now, a good hunter can fire 3 rounds from a pump action shotgun faster than can be fired from a semi-automatic shotgun. Does that mean that pump action shotguns should be banned? How about double-barrelled shot-guns (they can fire 2 rounds at the same time)? Where would the ban stop (i.e. the "slippery slope" argument)?

4) RydetheWind's got it right: firearms are tools, not toys, and you eat what you kill!

Just my 2 cents.

Peace!

 

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Extreme Peach



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  posted on 10/23/2008 at 02:45 PM
Gun control parallels abortion as to how the "for's" and "against's" behave.

Those who are anti-abortion try to chip away at the legality: partial birth, third trimester, limits on doctors/hours of operation, parental notification. Hell, eventrying to limit birth control!

Those who are anti-gun try to chip away at the legality: automatics, armor piercing, registration hurdles, concealed carry.

Those who are pro gun or abortion are afraid to make any concession or compromise for fear of losing mose rights later.

On the issue, Obama is on record as supporting the second amendment right to responsibly bear arms. Most Democrats are downplaying gun control if not abandoning it as unwinnable. Ann Richards lost the Texas governorship to Dubya, largely on the gun issue.

Far reaching gun control will not get through Congress because the people are agin' it!

I know as long as Ted Nugent has 'em I want them!

(or the cops, or the military, or the far right...)

 

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World Class Peach



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  posted on 10/24/2008 at 08:00 PM
quote:
And neither cars nor baseball bats are mentioned in the constitution.


As that neither had been invented yet.

 

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World Class Peach



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  posted on 10/28/2008 at 04:03 PM
As stated, here's the post, and reply, from another thread. I'll ask others to keep the gun ownership posts here, and let the other thread go back to what it was, about an 8 year old kid.

skyponydogboy posted: " A very tragic incident. Prayers for the family. Doesn't change my views or beliefs on guns or gun ownership though. If an zi is what I want to own, for ANY reason, I should have the right to do so.
It is a bit irresponsible to allow an 8 year old to shoot one...not wrong, bur surely some better supervision would be recommended."

To which mglowenstein wrote: "Yeah, that would be downright foolish, letting illustrative examples change your mind about something.

There is no reason for you or anyone to have an Uzi. You're only endangering yourself and those around you with that type of weapon. If it was just your own head that could get blown off, then I'd say strap up cowboy. But your family, your neighbors, your community...
These are the people who pay the price if and when ****goes bad. It's irresponsible to say the least, and it's utterly indefensible , to feel the need for to own this type of weapon for personal use. You want to go play with big guns? Go join the Marines, they're happy to oblige."

So, would you care to expand on how owning an Uzi endangers "your family, your neighbors, your community..."? Seems I've heard that argument before from Handgun Control.

And, since when did an Uzi become a "big gun"?

 

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