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Author: Subject: The Original Thanksgiving

Zen Peach



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  posted on 11/30/2010 at 12:34 AM

quote:
Did torturing, maiming, enslaving and killing exist in the Americas before Columbus rediscovered this part of the world??? Yes or no??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----

I dunno fletch, I wasnt living here yet.


Really?? That is your answer?? Not even a guess??

Let's try this one......................You live on Native American land right now, as we speak. What is the timeline for you giving it back to the appropriate tribe?? Be specific.



quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----
You live on Native American land right now, as we speak. What is the timeline for you giving it back to the appropriate tribe??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----



Can't. The people that originallly took it killed them all.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----



Good point.


Really? What tribe is it that doesn't exist anymore? Be specific. There are some, I just don't remember any in Kansas. Name??

And, Native Americans might not have "owned" the land, but the Sioux sure kicked the sh*t out of the Crow when they kicked them out of the Badlands for some reason, and tons of other examples as well. What was the biggest complaint about moving Tribes to reservations, other than the obvious forced displacement by f*cked white men of the time? It was that they were made to leave their traditional lands, where they thought they belonged. I'm guessing that if you moved into anywhere near the Navajo's prized and highly cultivated peach orchards, you had a problem on your hands.

At Pictograph Caves in Montana there are many drawing of Native Americans with armor, as in shields, as in to do battle with during war. Along the Montana-Wyoming border is the Valley of the Shields where there are even more pictographs of Tribesmen fronting war shields. All happened hundreds of years before the White man came in the 800s when the Irish explorers first arrived on the North American continent. Do you think there were ever wars over land back then??

The Cheyenne and Pawnee wars were about what?? The Iroquious League was created to try and end centuries of what???

 

____________________

 

World Class Peach



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  posted on 11/30/2010 at 01:03 AM
quote:

quote:
Did torturing, maiming, enslaving and killing exist in the Americas before Columbus rediscovered this part of the world??? Yes or no??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----

I dunno fletch, I wasnt living here yet.


Really?? That is your answer?? Not even a guess??

Let's try this one......................You live on Native American land right now, as we speak. What is the timeline for you giving it back to the appropriate tribe?? Be specific.



quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----
You live on Native American land right now, as we speak. What is the timeline for you giving it back to the appropriate tribe??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----



Can't. The people that originallly took it killed them all.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----



Good point.


Really? What tribe is it that doesn't exist anymore? Be specific. There are some, I just don't remember any in Kansas. Name??

And, Native Americans might not have "owned" the land, but the Sioux sure kicked the sh*t out of the Crow when they kicked them out of the Badlands for some reason, and tons of other examples as well. What was the biggest complaint about moving Tribes to reservations, other than the obvious forced displacement by f*cked white men of the time? It was that they were made to leave their traditional lands, where they thought they belonged. I'm guessing that if you moved into anywhere near the Navajo's prized and highly cultivated peach orchards, you had a problem on your hands.

At Pictograph Caves in Montana there are many drawing of Native Americans with armor, as in shields, as in to do battle with during war. Along the Montana-Wyoming border is the Valley of the Shields where there are even more pictographs of Tribesmen fronting war shields. All happened hundreds of years before the White man came in the 800s when the Irish explorers first arrived on the North American continent. Do you think there were ever wars over land back then??

The Cheyenne and Pawnee wars were about what?? The Iroquious League was created to try and end centuries of what???


Agreed. I mean if there are no more Native Americans someone better close down the "fake" casinos.

It is, however, easy to tell others to give back their land and hard to offer your own land back. We stole pretty much every square inch of this country (or started wars) except for the Louisian Purchase where we purchased stolen goods.

Maybe Bernie Madoff is responsible and now owns tribal land? Nah; George Bush stole the red man's land - that's it.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 11/30/2010 at 01:07 AM
quote:
quote:
Interesting that the analogy equates Israel's taking of Palestinian lands with the way this country decimated the Native Americans.


I think the history regarding Israel is much less clear cut than that involving the US and the Native Americans. An awful lot of people lay claim to that being "their" land; ownership over the centuries has shifted. Merely commenting that I don't hear anyone talking about giving their land back yet are quick to say that Israel should - and there is no dispute about how America was obtained.


There should not be such confusion. God gave specific parcels of land to each family in the 12 original tribes. All people have to do is trace their lineage back to those tribes, the current land has to be redistricted and descendents of those tribes should peacefully work out the details of where they can live. DNA analysis can go back and tell people what tribe in Africa they likely came from, so why can't they determine where they were in Palestine and Israel? Most people basically know where their great grandparents were from so they have a starting point.

 

____________________
"Mankind is a single nation" "Allah did not make you a single people so he could try you in what he gave you, to him you will all return, he will inform you where you differed". Quran Chapter 2 Sura 213

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 11/30/2010 at 01:24 AM
quote:

quote:
Did torturing, maiming, enslaving and killing exist in the Americas before Columbus rediscovered this part of the world??? Yes or no??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----

I dunno fletch, I wasnt living here yet.


Really?? That is your answer?? Not even a guess??

Let's try this one......................You live on Native American land right now, as we speak. What is the timeline for you giving it back to the appropriate tribe?? Be specific.



quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----
You live on Native American land right now, as we speak. What is the timeline for you giving it back to the appropriate tribe??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----



Can't. The people that originallly took it killed them all.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----



Good point.


Really? What tribe is it that doesn't exist anymore? Be specific. There are some, I just don't remember any in Kansas. Name??

And, Native Americans might not have "owned" the land, but the Sioux sure kicked the sh*t out of the Crow when they kicked them out of the Badlands for some reason, and tons of other examples as well. What was the biggest complaint about moving Tribes to reservations, other than the obvious forced displacement by f*cked white men of the time? It was that they were made to leave their traditional lands, where they thought they belonged. I'm guessing that if you moved into anywhere near the Navajo's prized and highly cultivated peach orchards, you had a problem on your hands.

At Pictograph Caves in Montana there are many drawing of Native Americans with armor, as in shields, as in to do battle with during war. Along the Montana-Wyoming border is the Valley of the Shields where there are even more pictographs of Tribesmen fronting war shields. All happened hundreds of years before the White man came in the 800s when the Irish explorers first arrived on the North American continent. Do you think there were ever wars over land back then??

The Cheyenne and Pawnee wars were about what?? The Iroquious League was created to try and end centuries of what???


What's your point? Individual Indians did not own plots of land, nor did tribes "own" the land they lived on. Just because they fought over the rights to use it doesn't mean they thought they owned it.

 

____________________


 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 11/30/2010 at 04:09 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
Interesting that the analogy equates Israel's taking of Palestinian lands with the way this country decimated the Native Americans.


I think the history regarding Israel is much less clear cut than that involving the US and the Native Americans. An awful lot of people lay claim to that being "their" land; ownership over the centuries has shifted. Merely commenting that I don't hear anyone talking about giving their land back yet are quick to say that Israel should - and there is no dispute about how America was obtained.


There should not be such confusion. God gave specific parcels of land to each family in the 12 original tribes. All people have to do is trace their lineage back to those tribes, the current land has to be redistricted and descendents of those tribes should peacefully work out the details of where they can live. DNA analysis can go back and tell people what tribe in Africa they likely came from, so why can't they determine where they were in Palestine and Israel? Most people basically know where their great grandparents were from so they have a starting point.


That's all huh?

 

____________________

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 11/30/2010 at 04:13 AM
quote:
quote:

quote:
Did torturing, maiming, enslaving and killing exist in the Americas before Columbus rediscovered this part of the world??? Yes or no??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----

I dunno fletch, I wasnt living here yet.


Really?? That is your answer?? Not even a guess??

Let's try this one......................You live on Native American land right now, as we speak. What is the timeline for you giving it back to the appropriate tribe?? Be specific.



quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----
You live on Native American land right now, as we speak. What is the timeline for you giving it back to the appropriate tribe??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----



Can't. The people that originallly took it killed them all.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----



Good point.


Really? What tribe is it that doesn't exist anymore? Be specific. There are some, I just don't remember any in Kansas. Name??

And, Native Americans might not have "owned" the land, but the Sioux sure kicked the sh*t out of the Crow when they kicked them out of the Badlands for some reason, and tons of other examples as well. What was the biggest complaint about moving Tribes to reservations, other than the obvious forced displacement by f*cked white men of the time? It was that they were made to leave their traditional lands, where they thought they belonged. I'm guessing that if you moved into anywhere near the Navajo's prized and highly cultivated peach orchards, you had a problem on your hands.

At Pictograph Caves in Montana there are many drawing of Native Americans with armor, as in shields, as in to do battle with during war. Along the Montana-Wyoming border is the Valley of the Shields where there are even more pictographs of Tribesmen fronting war shields. All happened hundreds of years before the White man came in the 800s when the Irish explorers first arrived on the North American continent. Do you think there were ever wars over land back then??

The Cheyenne and Pawnee wars were about what?? The Iroquious League was created to try and end centuries of what???


What's your point? Individual Indians did not own plots of land, nor did tribes "own" the land they lived on. Just because they fought over the rights to use it doesn't mean they thought they owned it.


What matters of course is not whether they owned it in the way we understand it but that they were deprived of their right to live on it and forced eventually onto reservations. There is no way to sugar coat it. It is a dark stain on our history. Still there have been attempts to make things right to some extent. You can be a proud American and acknowledge the nations shortcomings. At the same time there is no reason to mythologize the plains Indians than there is to mythologize the early Americans. All were people with all that entails.

 

____________________

 

Zen Peach



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Posts: 15832
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  posted on 11/30/2010 at 04:20 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:

quote:
Did torturing, maiming, enslaving and killing exist in the Americas before Columbus rediscovered this part of the world??? Yes or no??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----

I dunno fletch, I wasnt living here yet.


Really?? That is your answer?? Not even a guess??

Let's try this one......................You live on Native American land right now, as we speak. What is the timeline for you giving it back to the appropriate tribe?? Be specific.



quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----
You live on Native American land right now, as we speak. What is the timeline for you giving it back to the appropriate tribe??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----



Can't. The people that originallly took it killed them all.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----



Good point.


Really? What tribe is it that doesn't exist anymore? Be specific. There are some, I just don't remember any in Kansas. Name??

And, Native Americans might not have "owned" the land, but the Sioux sure kicked the sh*t out of the Crow when they kicked them out of the Badlands for some reason, and tons of other examples as well. What was the biggest complaint about moving Tribes to reservations, other than the obvious forced displacement by f*cked white men of the time? It was that they were made to leave their traditional lands, where they thought they belonged. I'm guessing that if you moved into anywhere near the Navajo's prized and highly cultivated peach orchards, you had a problem on your hands.

At Pictograph Caves in Montana there are many drawing of Native Americans with armor, as in shields, as in to do battle with during war. Along the Montana-Wyoming border is the Valley of the Shields where there are even more pictographs of Tribesmen fronting war shields. All happened hundreds of years before the White man came in the 800s when the Irish explorers first arrived on the North American continent. Do you think there were ever wars over land back then??

The Cheyenne and Pawnee wars were about what?? The Iroquious League was created to try and end centuries of what???


What's your point? Individual Indians did not own plots of land, nor did tribes "own" the land they lived on. Just because they fought over the rights to use it doesn't mean they thought they owned it.


What matters of course is not whether they owned it in the way we understand it but that they were deprived of their right to live on it and forced eventually onto reservations. There is no way to sugar coat it. It is a dark stain on our history. Still there have been attempts to make things right to some extent. You can be a proud American and acknowledge the nations shortcomings. At the same time there is no reason to mythologize the plains Indians than there is to mythologize the early Americans. All were people with all that entails.


Who is "mythologizing?"

 

____________________


 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 11/30/2010 at 05:13 AM
Not I. I lived in the 'Indian Territory' and it was part of my culltural education. All of history has it's own particular dark past......it doesn't diminish the relevance of the history.

 

____________________
Sometimes we can't choose the music life gives us - but we damn sure can choose how we dance!


 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 11/30/2010 at 12:34 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:

quote:
Did torturing, maiming, enslaving and killing exist in the Americas before Columbus rediscovered this part of the world??? Yes or no??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----

I dunno fletch, I wasnt living here yet.


Really?? That is your answer?? Not even a guess??

Let's try this one......................You live on Native American land right now, as we speak. What is the timeline for you giving it back to the appropriate tribe?? Be specific.



quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----
You live on Native American land right now, as we speak. What is the timeline for you giving it back to the appropriate tribe??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----



Can't. The people that originallly took it killed them all.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----



Good point.


Really? What tribe is it that doesn't exist anymore? Be specific. There are some, I just don't remember any in Kansas. Name??

And, Native Americans might not have "owned" the land, but the Sioux sure kicked the sh*t out of the Crow when they kicked them out of the Badlands for some reason, and tons of other examples as well. What was the biggest complaint about moving Tribes to reservations, other than the obvious forced displacement by f*cked white men of the time? It was that they were made to leave their traditional lands, where they thought they belonged. I'm guessing that if you moved into anywhere near the Navajo's prized and highly cultivated peach orchards, you had a problem on your hands.

At Pictograph Caves in Montana there are many drawing of Native Americans with armor, as in shields, as in to do battle with during war. Along the Montana-Wyoming border is the Valley of the Shields where there are even more pictographs of Tribesmen fronting war shields. All happened hundreds of years before the White man came in the 800s when the Irish explorers first arrived on the North American continent. Do you think there were ever wars over land back then??

The Cheyenne and Pawnee wars were about what?? The Iroquious League was created to try and end centuries of what???


What's your point? Individual Indians did not own plots of land, nor did tribes "own" the land they lived on. Just because they fought over the rights to use it doesn't mean they thought they owned it.


What matters of course is not whether they owned it in the way we understand it but that they were deprived of their right to live on it and forced eventually onto reservations. There is no way to sugar coat it. It is a dark stain on our history. Still there have been attempts to make things right to some extent. You can be a proud American and acknowledge the nations shortcomings. At the same time there is no reason to mythologize the plains Indians than there is to mythologize the early Americans. All were people with all that entails.


Who is "mythologizing?"


Some people like to make it seem like the Indians were all noble and perfect. Not saying it was you.

 

____________________

 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 15832
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  posted on 11/30/2010 at 12:36 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:

quote:
Did torturing, maiming, enslaving and killing exist in the Americas before Columbus rediscovered this part of the world??? Yes or no??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----

I dunno fletch, I wasnt living here yet.


Really?? That is your answer?? Not even a guess??

Let's try this one......................You live on Native American land right now, as we speak. What is the timeline for you giving it back to the appropriate tribe?? Be specific.



quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----
You live on Native American land right now, as we speak. What is the timeline for you giving it back to the appropriate tribe??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----



Can't. The people that originallly took it killed them all.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----



Good point.


Really? What tribe is it that doesn't exist anymore? Be specific. There are some, I just don't remember any in Kansas. Name??

And, Native Americans might not have "owned" the land, but the Sioux sure kicked the sh*t out of the Crow when they kicked them out of the Badlands for some reason, and tons of other examples as well. What was the biggest complaint about moving Tribes to reservations, other than the obvious forced displacement by f*cked white men of the time? It was that they were made to leave their traditional lands, where they thought they belonged. I'm guessing that if you moved into anywhere near the Navajo's prized and highly cultivated peach orchards, you had a problem on your hands.

At Pictograph Caves in Montana there are many drawing of Native Americans with armor, as in shields, as in to do battle with during war. Along the Montana-Wyoming border is the Valley of the Shields where there are even more pictographs of Tribesmen fronting war shields. All happened hundreds of years before the White man came in the 800s when the Irish explorers first arrived on the North American continent. Do you think there were ever wars over land back then??

The Cheyenne and Pawnee wars were about what?? The Iroquious League was created to try and end centuries of what???


What's your point? Individual Indians did not own plots of land, nor did tribes "own" the land they lived on. Just because they fought over the rights to use it doesn't mean they thought they owned it.


What matters of course is not whether they owned it in the way we understand it but that they were deprived of their right to live on it and forced eventually onto reservations. There is no way to sugar coat it. It is a dark stain on our history. Still there have been attempts to make things right to some extent. You can be a proud American and acknowledge the nations shortcomings. At the same time there is no reason to mythologize the plains Indians than there is to mythologize the early Americans. All were people with all that entails.


Who is "mythologizing?"


Some people like to make it seem like the Indians were all noble and perfect. Not saying it was you.


No one has acted like they were perfect. I believe they were more "noble," than the invaders who drove them off their land, by a long shot.

 

____________________


 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 11/30/2010 at 01:01 PM
I agree.

 

____________________
Sometimes we can't choose the music life gives us - but we damn sure can choose how we dance!


 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 20943
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Registered: 6/15/2005
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  posted on 11/30/2010 at 01:36 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:

quote:
Did torturing, maiming, enslaving and killing exist in the Americas before Columbus rediscovered this part of the world??? Yes or no??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----

I dunno fletch, I wasnt living here yet.


Really?? That is your answer?? Not even a guess??

Let's try this one......................You live on Native American land right now, as we speak. What is the timeline for you giving it back to the appropriate tribe?? Be specific.



quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----
You live on Native American land right now, as we speak. What is the timeline for you giving it back to the appropriate tribe??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----



Can't. The people that originallly took it killed them all.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----



Good point.


Really? What tribe is it that doesn't exist anymore? Be specific. There are some, I just don't remember any in Kansas. Name??

And, Native Americans might not have "owned" the land, but the Sioux sure kicked the sh*t out of the Crow when they kicked them out of the Badlands for some reason, and tons of other examples as well. What was the biggest complaint about moving Tribes to reservations, other than the obvious forced displacement by f*cked white men of the time? It was that they were made to leave their traditional lands, where they thought they belonged. I'm guessing that if you moved into anywhere near the Navajo's prized and highly cultivated peach orchards, you had a problem on your hands.

At Pictograph Caves in Montana there are many drawing of Native Americans with armor, as in shields, as in to do battle with during war. Along the Montana-Wyoming border is the Valley of the Shields where there are even more pictographs of Tribesmen fronting war shields. All happened hundreds of years before the White man came in the 800s when the Irish explorers first arrived on the North American continent. Do you think there were ever wars over land back then??

The Cheyenne and Pawnee wars were about what?? The Iroquious League was created to try and end centuries of what???


What's your point? Individual Indians did not own plots of land, nor did tribes "own" the land they lived on. Just because they fought over the rights to use it doesn't mean they thought they owned it.


What matters of course is not whether they owned it in the way we understand it but that they were deprived of their right to live on it and forced eventually onto reservations. There is no way to sugar coat it. It is a dark stain on our history. Still there have been attempts to make things right to some extent. You can be a proud American and acknowledge the nations shortcomings. At the same time there is no reason to mythologize the plains Indians than there is to mythologize the early Americans. All were people with all that entails.


Who is "mythologizing?"


Some people like to make it seem like the Indians were all noble and perfect. Not saying it was you.


No one has acted like they were perfect. I believe they were more "noble," than the invaders who drove them off their land, by a long shot.


That's my point. They were not more noble. They were victimized yes but they were no more "noble" than anyone else. No dout they had cruel people and atrocities and criminals and wife beaters and all the rest.

 

____________________

 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 15832
(15866 all sites)
Registered: 8/9/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 11/30/2010 at 01:59 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:

quote:
Did torturing, maiming, enslaving and killing exist in the Americas before Columbus rediscovered this part of the world??? Yes or no??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----

I dunno fletch, I wasnt living here yet.


Really?? That is your answer?? Not even a guess??

Let's try this one......................You live on Native American land right now, as we speak. What is the timeline for you giving it back to the appropriate tribe?? Be specific.



quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----
You live on Native American land right now, as we speak. What is the timeline for you giving it back to the appropriate tribe??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----



Can't. The people that originallly took it killed them all.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----



Good point.


Really? What tribe is it that doesn't exist anymore? Be specific. There are some, I just don't remember any in Kansas. Name??

And, Native Americans might not have "owned" the land, but the Sioux sure kicked the sh*t out of the Crow when they kicked them out of the Badlands for some reason, and tons of other examples as well. What was the biggest complaint about moving Tribes to reservations, other than the obvious forced displacement by f*cked white men of the time? It was that they were made to leave their traditional lands, where they thought they belonged. I'm guessing that if you moved into anywhere near the Navajo's prized and highly cultivated peach orchards, you had a problem on your hands.

At Pictograph Caves in Montana there are many drawing of Native Americans with armor, as in shields, as in to do battle with during war. Along the Montana-Wyoming border is the Valley of the Shields where there are even more pictographs of Tribesmen fronting war shields. All happened hundreds of years before the White man came in the 800s when the Irish explorers first arrived on the North American continent. Do you think there were ever wars over land back then??

The Cheyenne and Pawnee wars were about what?? The Iroquious League was created to try and end centuries of what???


What's your point? Individual Indians did not own plots of land, nor did tribes "own" the land they lived on. Just because they fought over the rights to use it doesn't mean they thought they owned it.


What matters of course is not whether they owned it in the way we understand it but that they were deprived of their right to live on it and forced eventually onto reservations. There is no way to sugar coat it. It is a dark stain on our history. Still there have been attempts to make things right to some extent. You can be a proud American and acknowledge the nations shortcomings. At the same time there is no reason to mythologize the plains Indians than there is to mythologize the early Americans. All were people with all that entails.


Who is "mythologizing?"


Some people like to make it seem like the Indians were all noble and perfect. Not saying it was you.


No one has acted like they were perfect. I believe they were more "noble," than the invaders who drove them off their land, by a long shot.


That's my point. They were not more noble. They were victimized yes but they were no more "noble" than anyone else. No dout they had cruel people and atrocities and criminals and wife beaters and all the rest.


You haven't read much about this, have you, dougron?

One thing I've learned about you is that once your mind is made up about something, you are right, period. I suggest that since most of your learning comes from books, read some about the Native American cultures. You might be surprised. See how often you read about someone murdering someone for something they owned, or over a woman. See how often you read about a man deserting his family to go hang out with other women. They were very small societies, so they evolved to be much more transparent than ours, as they had to. Ever heard of a native American tribe with a police force or jails?

 

____________________


 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 11/30/2010 at 03:44 PM
And may I add....study the history and practice of the medicine wheel if you want to understand the ways of the Native Americans. They had and have beautiful beliefs and understanding of how to walk through this life.

 

____________________
Sometimes we can't choose the music life gives us - but we damn sure can choose how we dance!


 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 15832
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Registered: 8/9/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 11/30/2010 at 04:24 PM
quote:
And may I add....study the history and practice of the medicine wheel if you want to understand the ways of the Native Americans. They had and have beautiful beliefs and understanding of how to walk through this life.


Agree 100%.

 

____________________


 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 11/30/2010 at 04:33 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:

quote:
Did torturing, maiming, enslaving and killing exist in the Americas before Columbus rediscovered this part of the world??? Yes or no??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----

I dunno fletch, I wasnt living here yet.


Really?? That is your answer?? Not even a guess??

Let's try this one......................You live on Native American land right now, as we speak. What is the timeline for you giving it back to the appropriate tribe?? Be specific.



quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----
You live on Native American land right now, as we speak. What is the timeline for you giving it back to the appropriate tribe??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----



Can't. The people that originallly took it killed them all.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----



Good point.


Really? What tribe is it that doesn't exist anymore? Be specific. There are some, I just don't remember any in Kansas. Name??

And, Native Americans might not have "owned" the land, but the Sioux sure kicked the sh*t out of the Crow when they kicked them out of the Badlands for some reason, and tons of other examples as well. What was the biggest complaint about moving Tribes to reservations, other than the obvious forced displacement by f*cked white men of the time? It was that they were made to leave their traditional lands, where they thought they belonged. I'm guessing that if you moved into anywhere near the Navajo's prized and highly cultivated peach orchards, you had a problem on your hands.

At Pictograph Caves in Montana there are many drawing of Native Americans with armor, as in shields, as in to do battle with during war. Along the Montana-Wyoming border is the Valley of the Shields where there are even more pictographs of Tribesmen fronting war shields. All happened hundreds of years before the White man came in the 800s when the Irish explorers first arrived on the North American continent. Do you think there were ever wars over land back then??

The Cheyenne and Pawnee wars were about what?? The Iroquious League was created to try and end centuries of what???


What's your point? Individual Indians did not own plots of land, nor did tribes "own" the land they lived on. Just because they fought over the rights to use it doesn't mean they thought they owned it.


What matters of course is not whether they owned it in the way we understand it but that they were deprived of their right to live on it and forced eventually onto reservations. There is no way to sugar coat it. It is a dark stain on our history. Still there have been attempts to make things right to some extent. You can be a proud American and acknowledge the nations shortcomings. At the same time there is no reason to mythologize the plains Indians than there is to mythologize the early Americans. All were people with all that entails.


Who is "mythologizing?"


Some people like to make it seem like the Indians were all noble and perfect. Not saying it was you.


No one has acted like they were perfect. I believe they were more "noble," than the invaders who drove them off their land, by a long shot.


That's my point. They were not more noble. They were victimized yes but they were no more "noble" than anyone else. No dout they had cruel people and atrocities and criminals and wife beaters and all the rest.


You haven't read much about this, have you, dougron?

One thing I've learned about you is that once your mind is made up about something, you are right, period. I suggest that since most of your learning comes from books, read some about the Native American cultures. You might be surprised. See how often you read about someone murdering someone for something they owned, or over a woman. See how often you read about a man deserting his family to go hang out with other women. They were very small societies, so they evolved to be much more transparent than ours, as they had to. Ever heard of a native American tribe with a police force or jails?




American Exceptionalists have a hard time accepting that anything has ever been done wrong by Americans at any point in our history. They get all squirmy.

 

____________________
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  posted on 11/30/2010 at 07:31 PM
quote:




quote:
And may I add....study the history and practice of the medicine wheel if you want to understand the ways of the Native Americans. They had and have beautiful beliefs and understanding of how to walk through this life.


In some cases, yes. Absolutely. The European's view of nature, in some cases, was out of wack with the game diminished and nearly all of the woods (Scotland comes to mind) cut down with no sense of balance whatsoever. Clueless. A lot of the Tribes were way ahead of their time on a lot of views of life on a dynamic and living planet which I have learned from and practice, etc. Plus chocolate, vanilla, tomatos, beans and so much more originated here in the New World.

At the same time, I'm also glad that polio was cured and that we are able to go to the moon and explore the universe around us, utilize the wheel and can communicate with a written language which we are doing right now.

quote:
American Exceptionalists have a hard time accepting that anything has ever been done wrong by Americans at any point in our history. They get all squirmy


So, in other words, you are not an American Exceptionalist??

 

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  posted on 11/30/2010 at 07:36 PM
Have you watched the show about aliens visiting ancient Mayan peoples? There are a lot of carvings pointing to visits from outter space a long time before Europeans came to the Americas. Also, speaking of the medicine wheel.....it's also a form of astrology....seems Native Americans knew about space too.

Other than that, I can't see as how modern accomplishments have anything to do with Native American history.

 

____________________
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  posted on 11/30/2010 at 08:18 PM
quote:
And may I add....study the history and practice of the medicine wheel if you want to understand the ways of the Native Americans. They had and have beautiful beliefs and understanding of how to walk through this life.


Here's a website I found awhile back that I like:

http://www.pathofthefeather.com/

 

____________________


 

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  posted on 11/30/2010 at 08:45 PM
quote:
Have you watched the show about aliens visiting ancient Mayan peoples? There are a lot of carvings pointing to visits from outter space a long time before Europeans came to the Americas.



Yes I have, and I have also made the pilgrimage to see the Sego Canyon Petroglyphs in person, with my own eyes, which date back to 2000 years or so and speak for themsleves.


quote:
Also, speaking of the medicine wheel.....it's also a form of astrology....seems Native Americans knew about space too.



Of course, they looked up and saw and followed the stars.


quote:
Other than that, I can't see as how modern accomplishments have anything to do with Native American history.


They don't.

 

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  posted on 11/30/2010 at 09:02 PM
quote:
quote:
And may I add....study the history and practice of the medicine wheel if you want to understand the ways of the Native Americans. They had and have beautiful beliefs and understanding of how to walk through this life.


Here's a website I found awhile back that I like:

http://www.pathofthefeather.com/


I found that website a while back and have visited it frequently. I also have a medicine wheel that I had set up in the room I used for energy work and the energy one of those puts off is amazing. I used all the natural minerals for each position and placed it on a soft leather hide. Just having it in the room makes the pace feel better. And I also read a lot about animal wisdom. Great site, thanks for posting the link.

 

____________________
Sometimes we can't choose the music life gives us - but we damn sure can choose how we dance!


 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 12/1/2010 at 09:32 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:

quote:
Did torturing, maiming, enslaving and killing exist in the Americas before Columbus rediscovered this part of the world??? Yes or no??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----

I dunno fletch, I wasnt living here yet.


Really?? That is your answer?? Not even a guess??

Let's try this one......................You live on Native American land right now, as we speak. What is the timeline for you giving it back to the appropriate tribe?? Be specific.



quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----
You live on Native American land right now, as we speak. What is the timeline for you giving it back to the appropriate tribe??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----



Can't. The people that originallly took it killed them all.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----



Good point.


Really? What tribe is it that doesn't exist anymore? Be specific. There are some, I just don't remember any in Kansas. Name??

And, Native Americans might not have "owned" the land, but the Sioux sure kicked the sh*t out of the Crow when they kicked them out of the Badlands for some reason, and tons of other examples as well. What was the biggest complaint about moving Tribes to reservations, other than the obvious forced displacement by f*cked white men of the time? It was that they were made to leave their traditional lands, where they thought they belonged. I'm guessing that if you moved into anywhere near the Navajo's prized and highly cultivated peach orchards, you had a problem on your hands.

At Pictograph Caves in Montana there are many drawing of Native Americans with armor, as in shields, as in to do battle with during war. Along the Montana-Wyoming border is the Valley of the Shields where there are even more pictographs of Tribesmen fronting war shields. All happened hundreds of years before the White man came in the 800s when the Irish explorers first arrived on the North American continent. Do you think there were ever wars over land back then??

The Cheyenne and Pawnee wars were about what?? The Iroquious League was created to try and end centuries of what???


What's your point? Individual Indians did not own plots of land, nor did tribes "own" the land they lived on. Just because they fought over the rights to use it doesn't mean they thought they owned it.


What matters of course is not whether they owned it in the way we understand it but that they were deprived of their right to live on it and forced eventually onto reservations. There is no way to sugar coat it. It is a dark stain on our history. Still there have been attempts to make things right to some extent. You can be a proud American and acknowledge the nations shortcomings. At the same time there is no reason to mythologize the plains Indians than there is to mythologize the early Americans. All were people with all that entails.


Who is "mythologizing?"


Some people like to make it seem like the Indians were all noble and perfect. Not saying it was you.


No one has acted like they were perfect. I believe they were more "noble," than the invaders who drove them off their land, by a long shot.


That's my point. They were not more noble. They were victimized yes but they were no more "noble" than anyone else. No dout they had cruel people and atrocities and criminals and wife beaters and all the rest.


You haven't read much about this, have you, dougron?

One thing I've learned about you is that once your mind is made up about something, you are right, period. I suggest that since most of your learning comes from books, read some about the Native American cultures. You might be surprised. See how often you read about someone murdering someone for something they owned, or over a woman. See how often you read about a man deserting his family to go hang out with other women. They were very small societies, so they evolved to be much more transparent than ours, as they had to. Ever heard of a native American tribe with a police force or jails?




Yes and you are a beacon of open mindendness. I have seen you frequently change your mind and opinions once made up. I will try to learn from you master.

 

____________________

 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 20943
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Registered: 6/15/2005
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  posted on 12/1/2010 at 09:34 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:

quote:
Did torturing, maiming, enslaving and killing exist in the Americas before Columbus rediscovered this part of the world??? Yes or no??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----

I dunno fletch, I wasnt living here yet.


Really?? That is your answer?? Not even a guess??

Let's try this one......................You live on Native American land right now, as we speak. What is the timeline for you giving it back to the appropriate tribe?? Be specific.



quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----
You live on Native American land right now, as we speak. What is the timeline for you giving it back to the appropriate tribe??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----



Can't. The people that originallly took it killed them all.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----



Good point.


Really? What tribe is it that doesn't exist anymore? Be specific. There are some, I just don't remember any in Kansas. Name??

And, Native Americans might not have "owned" the land, but the Sioux sure kicked the sh*t out of the Crow when they kicked them out of the Badlands for some reason, and tons of other examples as well. What was the biggest complaint about moving Tribes to reservations, other than the obvious forced displacement by f*cked white men of the time? It was that they were made to leave their traditional lands, where they thought they belonged. I'm guessing that if you moved into anywhere near the Navajo's prized and highly cultivated peach orchards, you had a problem on your hands.

At Pictograph Caves in Montana there are many drawing of Native Americans with armor, as in shields, as in to do battle with during war. Along the Montana-Wyoming border is the Valley of the Shields where there are even more pictographs of Tribesmen fronting war shields. All happened hundreds of years before the White man came in the 800s when the Irish explorers first arrived on the North American continent. Do you think there were ever wars over land back then??

The Cheyenne and Pawnee wars were about what?? The Iroquious League was created to try and end centuries of what???


What's your point? Individual Indians did not own plots of land, nor did tribes "own" the land they lived on. Just because they fought over the rights to use it doesn't mean they thought they owned it.


What matters of course is not whether they owned it in the way we understand it but that they were deprived of their right to live on it and forced eventually onto reservations. There is no way to sugar coat it. It is a dark stain on our history. Still there have been attempts to make things right to some extent. You can be a proud American and acknowledge the nations shortcomings. At the same time there is no reason to mythologize the plains Indians than there is to mythologize the early Americans. All were people with all that entails.


Who is "mythologizing?"


Some people like to make it seem like the Indians were all noble and perfect. Not saying it was you.


No one has acted like they were perfect. I believe they were more "noble," than the invaders who drove them off their land, by a long shot.


That's my point. They were not more noble. They were victimized yes but they were no more "noble" than anyone else. No dout they had cruel people and atrocities and criminals and wife beaters and all the rest.


You haven't read much about this, have you, dougron?

One thing I've learned about you is that once your mind is made up about something, you are right, period. I suggest that since most of your learning comes from books, read some about the Native American cultures. You might be surprised. See how often you read about someone murdering someone for something they owned, or over a woman. See how often you read about a man deserting his family to go hang out with other women. They were very small societies, so they evolved to be much more transparent than ours, as they had to. Ever heard of a native American tribe with a police force or jails?




American Exceptionalists have a hard time accepting that anything has ever been done wrong by Americans at any point in our history. They get all squirmy.


Completely and totally not true. I myself in this very thread have admitted the wrong we did and all real historians, which include American "exceptionalists" recognize the wrong things done by this country.

 

____________________

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 12/1/2010 at 09:37 AM
quote:
So, in other words, you are not an American Exceptionalist??


I am proud to be an American and am proud of my country. But, that whole de Tocqueville "shining city on a hill" stuff, no.

 

____________________
"Live every week like it's Shark Week." - Tracy Jordan

 

Zen Peach



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Posts: 20943
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Registered: 6/15/2005
Status: Offline

  posted on 12/1/2010 at 10:33 AM
American exceptionalists believe that because the United States was founded on a series of liberal ideals that we are different than other countries. We believe that despite the warts and negatives this country has been a great force of good in the world. It is not just chauvinistic nationalism. Most of us realize that the nation was founded with slavery enshrined. We realize that the native Americans were terribly mistreated. Revisionists believe that these negatives are sufficient to dismiss the United States as a force for bad. We don't agree. We think on balance the U.S. has been a force for good for both the world and for its own citizens. A big part of this of course is efforts the United States has made through fits and starts, through violence and legislation and court action, to redress the wrongs suffered, to end slavery, to eventually bring about civil rights, to attempt to redress (to the extent feasible) the harm done to the Native American culture by American expansion. Ideas of freedom have been steadily expanded. We are and remain the freest nation on earth and the first (and as far as I know only) country founded purely on ideals (notice I said ideals) of liberalism. This is what American Exceptionalists believe. There does not have to be any mytholigizing of white washing of history. Pure history in all its forms supports the idea of American exceptionalism. It does not mean American Chauvinism or a belief in American perfection.

 

____________________

 
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