Thread: Alabama outlaws abortion

BrerRabbit - 5/15/2019 at 03:23 PM

No exception for rape, incest. Strictest law in the US. Mississippi and Georgia possibly following. Yeehaw, lets lock sis in this hyar trailer befor she goes fer an abortion! Raise us a brood ! sh!tfire!

An no punishment fer us men , yaayhhooooo! Knockem up an lockem up, ifn they don like it sockem up!

@sswipes.

[Edited on 5/15/2019 by BrerRabbit]


IF - 5/15/2019 at 03:42 PM

https://youtu.be/B3akkaNuHKk



leafsfan - 5/15/2019 at 05:47 PM

US sure has the knack of putting some back asswards people in the seats of power. Amazing thing is so many women believe in this **** as well.

Wait until one of their daughters gets pregnant in high school and then see where they take their next "family vacation".

SMH


BIGV - 5/15/2019 at 06:10 PM

As a Pro-Choice Voter, I would say "Don't live in Alabama if you believe this attempt at Law is wrong"


MartinD28 - 5/15/2019 at 06:23 PM

quote:
As a Pro-Choice Voter, I would say "Don't live in Alabama if you believe this attempt at Law is wrong"

And as other states follow suit and those good ole male conservatives on the SCOTUS stand behind them, should people move to foreign countries to escape the backwards thinking?


BrerRabbit - 5/15/2019 at 08:23 PM

quote:
Wait until one of their daughters gets pregnant in high school and then see where they take their next "family vacation".


High school nothin! We gonna shut them down seein as how they dont teach Noazark in biology. Still makes no differnce cuz we dont school em anyhow. Just gives em ideas. Heck we just shackle em up in the church basement, plop out some more, if theyz girls we keep a couple fer breedin, trade off a couple to other parish, if its boy well if healthy might could be worth keepin fer farmin an fightin if weak we eat em.


[Edited on 5/15/2019 by BrerRabbit]


Chain - 5/15/2019 at 08:36 PM

Not good move for the Republican party heading into the 2020 election.....Keep pissing off the women voters. The far right base may love it, but i suspect independent women view this as an attack on their reproductive freedoms.


BrerRabbit - 5/15/2019 at 08:40 PM


Time for the girls to have another revolution, maybe with some help from the boys this time around. It will happen.


tbomike - 5/15/2019 at 10:32 PM

quote:
As a Pro-Choice Voter, I would say "Don't live in Alabama if you believe this attempt at Law is wrong"


That is asinine.


tbomike - 5/15/2019 at 10:33 PM

When Pat f'n Robertson says this.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/pat-robertson-alabama-has-gone-too-far-wi th-extreme-abortion-law/ar-AABpuXH


Bill_Graham - 5/15/2019 at 11:50 PM

quote:
As a Pro-Choice Voter, I would say "Don't live in Alabama if you believe this attempt at Law is wrong"


No, that is a ridiculous statement as this this is in violation of Roe vs. Wade so it is against the Federal law and should be stuck down by the Supreme Court if and when the challenge gets there.


MartinD28 - 5/16/2019 at 12:15 AM

quote:
quote:
As a Pro-Choice Voter, I would say "Don't live in Alabama if you believe this attempt at Law is wrong"


No, that is a ridiculous statement as this this is in violation of Roe vs. Wade so it is against the Federal law and should be stuck down by the Supreme Court if and when the challenge gets there.


Yesterday was a day Mike Pence was probably smiling ear to ear.

Remember that Trump has appointed 2 conservative SC justices recommended to Trump by the Federalist Society. That should tell you all you need to know. All bets are off on interpretation of federal law. If somehow this gets upheld, remember the votes of Susan Collins and her "support for womens' rights". She'll be gone after the next challenge for her seat.


nebish - 5/16/2019 at 04:59 AM

Sometimes I wonder why people care about abortion so much.


2112 - 5/16/2019 at 06:26 AM

quote:
Sometimes I wonder why people care about abortion so much.


Because going back to the days of using coat hangers in a back ally is rediculous.


nebish - 5/16/2019 at 01:09 PM

These people that make it their crusade in life to overturn abortion law. These people that base their vote on a single solitary issue of abortion.

I would much rather leave abortion available and accessible for those that need it. But if it were to all go away tomorrow the world keeps turning.


BIGV - 5/16/2019 at 02:15 PM

quote:
quote:
As a Pro-Choice Voter, I would say "Don't live in Alabama if you believe this attempt at Law is wrong"

And as other states follow suit and those good ole male conservatives on the SCOTUS stand behind them, should people move to foreign countries to escape the backwards thinking?


"backwards thinking"...Ask a Nurse, Doctor or obgyn about pregnancy and discover that most will say they have two patients.....

Dilemma


porkchopbob - 5/16/2019 at 04:08 PM

quote:
"backwards thinking"...Ask a Nurse, Doctor or obgyn about pregnancy and discover that most will say they have two patients.....

Dilemma

Because they are typically dealing with an eager parent(s) and their purpose is securing the health and safety of the mother and baby. But guess whose health comes first?

Also, ask a rape victim and you'll find you're thinking is bit narrow.


BIGV - 5/16/2019 at 04:17 PM

quote:
quote:
"backwards thinking"...Ask a Nurse, Doctor or obgyn about pregnancy and discover that most will say they have two patients.....

Dilemma

Because they are typically dealing with an eager parent(s) and their purpose is securing the health and safety of the mother and baby. But guess whose health comes first?

Also, ask a rape victim and you'll find you're thinking is bit narrow.


"and their purpose is securing the health and safety of the mother and baby"

The mother and who?


MartinD28 - 5/16/2019 at 04:40 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
As a Pro-Choice Voter, I would say "Don't live in Alabama if you believe this attempt at Law is wrong"

And as other states follow suit and those good ole male conservatives on the SCOTUS stand behind them, should people move to foreign countries to escape the backwards thinking?


"backwards thinking"...Ask a Nurse, Doctor or obgyn about pregnancy and discover that most will say they have two patients.....

Dilemma


You said you were a pro choice. So what is your point? Are you trying to dance both sides of an issue? The government should stay the f out of womens' most personal reproductive decisions.

Did anybody see the picture of all the male senators in Alabama that voted for this legislation? They would certainly know what's best for a woman, right? No exceptions even in the case of rape or incest.

Yes, truly backwards thinking by the legislators. Let them be the first to step up to adopt. Wonder how many of them have adopted children to prevent choice of a woman?

[Edited on 5/16/2019 by MartinD28]


BIGV - 5/16/2019 at 04:47 PM

quote:
You said you were a pro choice. So what is your point? Are you trying to dance both sides of an issue?


Dance?.....No. But I believe this is a tough decision for all, myself included. I do believe in a woman's right to control what goes on in her own body; to deny that a child is being carried and a life terminated is madness.

Labeling it "backwards thinking" is as closed minded as it comes.


BrerRabbit - 5/16/2019 at 04:55 PM

quote:
When Pat f'n Robertson says this.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/pat-robertson-alabama-has-gone-too-far-wi th-extreme-abortion-law/ar-AABpuXH




So tbo I read your link, the Pat Robertson bit - gave me some cause for optimism. Robertson's concern is that if the Alabama law becomes the Supreme Court battlefield over Roe, it is too draconian and will tie up the courts and be overturned. And the critical moment of change will pass - right now Robertson wants a less strict law to go to the Supreme Court, one that is within reach.

So, they could be reaching for too many bananas and are gonna fall out of the tree. Robertson would be happy if Alabama's law went Federal, it isn't because he thinks it is too strict - he just thinks it is unrealistic. Kind of like when you are carefully hunting and your quarry is in sight, a bunch of drunken yayhoos come roarin and hollerin up and scare away your kill. I bet Pat Robertson is furious right now. Their greatest enemy is themselves.




porkchopbob - 5/16/2019 at 05:01 PM

quote:
The mother and who?

Oy, um, ask your mother.


BIGV - 5/16/2019 at 05:03 PM

quote:
quote:
The mother and who?

Oy, um, ask your mother.


Nice. You admit that it is a child and I quote you.....

Nice


BrerRabbit - 5/16/2019 at 05:20 PM

quote:
I do believe in a woman's right to control what goes on in her own body


I agree. And that is what is at stake here.

While certainly valid, your ethical and metaphysical concerns cloud the issue and at this point only serve to undermine the already crumbling foundations of womens' rights. Those rights need to be secured for perpetuity.

All else is secondary, fine for discussion and contemplation, but has no place or bearing on political dialogue.


porkchopbob - 5/16/2019 at 05:21 PM

quote:
Nice. You admit that it is a child and I quote you.....

Nice

Uh, no.

No one denies a baby is involved, no one wrote that here. You're (yet again) creating a straw man argument rather than deal with what people are actually saying.

Obviously OBGYNs deal with expectant parents, who eventually expect a healthy baby (duh). Not everyone wants a baby and they can get an abortion before it develops which is legal. No one said it was an easy issue, but try not to miss the point entirely just so you can insert random arguments.


BIGV - 5/16/2019 at 05:25 PM

quote:
No one said it was an easy issue, but try not to miss the point entirely just so you can insert random arguments.


Fair enough, try not to be condescending.


porkchopbob - 5/16/2019 at 05:28 PM

quote:
quote:
No one said it was an easy issue, but try not to miss the point entirely just so you can insert random arguments.

Fair enough, try not to be condescending.

It's really really hard when I have to "defend" stuff that I haven't written. Don't make assumptions.


MartinD28 - 5/16/2019 at 06:32 PM

quote:
quote:
You said you were a pro choice. So what is your point? Are you trying to dance both sides of an issue?


Dance?.....No. But I believe this is a tough decision for all, myself included. I do believe in a woman's right to control what goes on in her own body; to deny that a child is being carried and a life terminated is madness.

Labeling it "backwards thinking" is as closed minded as it comes.


Other than you, who said "to deny that a child is being carried and a life terminated is madness." You're the one that brought that into the equation? Why - for a tool of argument?

So it is madness? Maybe that's a bit dramatic for what is a legal right. It is an unfortunate situation of the highest degree, but until you or anyone else walks in a woman's shoes, knows her socioeconomic situation, understands her personal issues, we need to back off and let her have her choice as protected by law until the GOP chips away at what is left.

It is backwards thinking to take us back to the time when woman visited alleys and were forced to perform procedures on themselves. We have Roe vs Wade, but people & politicians who want to interfere in the reproductive decision making of 1/2 of the population are appalling. Do you want to go back to the good old times before R v W? So you defend backwards thinking all you want and label the opposite as close minded.


BIGV - 5/16/2019 at 07:07 PM

quote:
So you defend backwards thinking all you want and label the opposite as close minded.


Pretty much the same thing you are doing, because the way you see it is the "correct" way.

There is no easy answer. Let me ask you this. "In your opinion, when does life begin"?


porkchopbob - 5/16/2019 at 07:09 PM

quote:
Let me ask you this. "In your opinion, when does life begin"?

Your first Allman Brothers concert, duh


BrerRabbit - 5/16/2019 at 07:12 PM

quote:
. . ."when does life begin"?


About 3.5 billion years ago.


BIGV - 5/16/2019 at 07:16 PM

quote:
quote:
Let me ask you this. "In your opinion, when does life begin"?

Your first Allman Brothers concert, duh


The question is right on track with the thread title and is absolutely germane to the topic......


porkchopbob - 5/16/2019 at 07:28 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Let me ask you this. "In your opinion, when does life begin"?

Your first Allman Brothers concert, duh

The question is right on track with the thread title and is absolutely germane to the topic......

Sorry, is this Germane enough?


BrerRabbit - 5/16/2019 at 08:00 PM

"When does life begin" is an interesting puzzler for metaphysical discussion, but a dead end in the abortion rights debate. If you follow this line of reasoning you end up at the Vatican with contraception a sin.

If someone has the right to choose then that is simply it, end of the matter - the rest is just personal philosophy.

Attempting to pinpoint the beginning of a human life turns the whole question into a philosohical fishbowl that can only benefit anti-abortion forces. A compulsion to focus on this shows a shallow regard and understanding of a "pro choice" stance.


KCJimmy - 5/16/2019 at 08:22 PM

Why is it in most states when a drunk driver kills a pregnant woman and her child he can held responsible for two deaths, but if that same woman went to an abortion clinic and had her baby terminated it is a choice? It is a tough issue but you can't ignore the "when life begins" question.


porkchopbob - 5/16/2019 at 08:38 PM

quote:
Why is it in most states when a drunk driver kills a pregnant woman and her child he can held responsible for two deaths, but if that same woman went to an abortion clinic and had her baby terminated it is a choice? It is a tough issue but you can't ignore the "when life begins" question.

In 1 case the woman has chosen to take the fetus to term, in the other she has chosen not to. We have yet to, and may never, answer the "when does life begin" question, but we can allow women to control their own body. Certainly doing a better job of it than manslaughtering drunk drivers are.


BrerRabbit - 5/16/2019 at 08:43 PM

That is a good point. When someone chooses to end a pregnancy it is their decision. If the pregnancy is ended involuntarily it is not by choice.

Look at places like China, where abortion is mandatory after the limit of allowable children is exceeded - that is an example of pro-abortion being anti-choice.

We don't have to ignore the question of when life begins, but it is a separate matter for personal consideration. Pro-choice does not have to mean pro-abortion.

We forget that every day all the time the choice is being freely made to have kids.

[Edited on 5/16/2019 by BrerRabbit]


KCJimmy - 5/16/2019 at 08:44 PM

quote:
quote:
Why is it in most states when a drunk driver kills a pregnant woman and her child he can held responsible for two deaths, but if that same woman went to an abortion clinic and had her baby terminated it is a choice? It is a tough issue but you can't ignore the "when life begins" question.

In 1 case the woman has chosen to take the fetus to term, in the other she has chosen not to. We have yet to, and may never, answer the "when does life begin" question, but we can allow women to control their own body. Certainly doing a better job of it than manslaughtering drunk drivers are.
How do we know what the woman's intensions are? Perhaps the accident occurred as she was on her way to the clinic to terminate. The Law is the law. The drunk driver is still guilty regardless of the woman's intentions.


BrerRabbit - 5/16/2019 at 09:05 PM

There are many good faith arguments for and against - you just gotta own your position, no need to bandy words.


porkchopbob - 5/16/2019 at 09:05 PM

quote:
How do we know what the woman's intensions are? Perhaps the accident occurred as she was on her way to the clinic to terminate. The Law is the law. The drunk driver is still guilty regardless of the woman's intentions.

There are indeed pro-choice advocates who are against the law (signed by GWB, and specifically excludes abortion). Investigators can usually figure out a woman's intentions, especially if she's in her first trimester and on her way to an abortion clinic, but this is such an unlikely hypothetical that I'm thinking maybe just FECK THE DRUNK DRIVER, he killed a lady. That isn't the law's intent nor it's application.


BrerRabbit - 5/16/2019 at 09:07 PM

Yeah really, the d*ckhead is going to the slammer anyway.


KCJimmy - 5/16/2019 at 09:20 PM

quote:
quote:
How do we know what the woman's intensions are? Perhaps the accident occurred as she was on her way to the clinic to terminate. The Law is the law. The drunk driver is still guilty regardless of the woman's intentions.

There are indeed pro-choice advocates who are against the law (signed by GWB, and specifically excludes abortion). Investigators can usually figure out a woman's intentions, especially if she's in her first trimester and on her way to an abortion clinic, but this is such an unlikely hypothetical that I'm thinking maybe just FECK THE DRUNK DRIVER, he killed a lady. That isn't the law's intent nor it's application.

The point is ONE LAW recognizes the value of the young life, ONE does not. You can be pro life AND pro choice you know. You have to chose not to get pregnant until you are prepared to raise a child. That may sound over simplified but it isn't. It really is that simple in most cases. We have the right to chose but our choices have consequences. Chose to have sex you might get pregnant. I understand accidents/mistakes happen. It certainly isn't the babies fault. Just like the hypothetical one above. Dude chose to drive drunk, kills some people and has to suffer the consequences. The time to chose is BEFORE you get pregnant not after (or drink & drive).

Let's say, hypothetically, that the above drunk driver only cripples the pregnant woman in the accident. He made a mistake, had an accident which has consequences. Should one of his choices be to terminate the lady to avoid punishment?


BrerRabbit - 5/16/2019 at 09:27 PM

Well, you want abortion outlawed sounds like. Ok, how about mandatory castration for guys who knock up girls and don't support them? Heck, lets play hardball.


KCJimmy - 5/16/2019 at 09:41 PM

You know it really is a tough one. As you so keenly observed I do value the life of the unborn. But it is tough. And while your suggestion is not completely meritless it may be tough to get all the "OLD WHITE GUYS" in Washington to agree on. My girlfriend and I went through this in High School. 1978 we took the easy route and I do regret it to this day. It didn't mean near as much to me at the time but I was also a dumba$$ teenager at the time. I don't want to control what women do with their bodies. But the whole "consequences of our choices" thing CANNOT be overstated on this subject. I live in Alabama. I am pro life. And I am uncomfortable with the law as is and the strategy behind it. But I am also uncomfortable with abortion on demand. Don't get started on late term and "after birth" abortions. THAT'S MURDER.

I poked around in the interweb and found this

Out of 195 countries there are 125 that either don't allow abortion at all or only under pretty extreme circumstances.


porkchopbob - 5/16/2019 at 09:42 PM

quote:
You can be pro life AND pro choice you know.

Yes, there is no such thing as "anti-life", pro-choice advocates do indeed support life.

quote:
You have to chose not to get pregnant until you are prepared to raise a child. That may sound over simplified but it isn't. It really is that simple in most cases.

Well, except RAPE. And women have the choice to terminate a pregnancy in their body before it develops. Life is full of choices.

quote:
Let's say, hypothetically, that the above drunk driver only cripples the pregnant woman in the accident. He made a mistake, had an accident which has consequences. Should one of his choices be to terminate the lady to avoid punishment?

Uh, sorry what? You're talking about a grown woman who no one argues isn't now a person. Can we stop torturing this poor woman and trying to get this sh1thead drunk driver a pass?


BrerRabbit - 5/16/2019 at 09:42 PM

One strike rule, you lose procreation privilege if you dont follow through.


porkchopbob - 5/16/2019 at 09:50 PM

quote:
You know it really is a tough one. As you so keenly observed I do value the life of the unborn. But it is tough. And while your suggestion is not completely meritless it may be tough to get all the "OLD WHITE GUYS" in Washington to agree on. My girlfriend and I went through this in High School. 1978 we took the easy route and I do regret it to this day. It didn't mean near as much to me at the time but I was also a dumba$$ teenager at the time. I don't want to control what women do with their bodies. But the whole "consequences of our choices" thing CANNOT be overstated on this subject. I live in Alabama. I am pro life. And I am uncomfortable with the law as is and the strategy behind it. But I am also uncomfortable with abortion on demand. Don't get started on late term and "after birth" abortions. THAT'S MURDER


I appreciate your candor. I don't think anyone takes the decision lightly but I believe the option should be available.

One thing, there is no such thing as "after birth" abortions. Trump has recently mischaracterized and sensationalized a legitimate, rare yet tragic medical situation.

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2019/apr/29/donald-trum p/donald-trump-repeats-falsely-doctors-mothers-decid/

quote:
Less than 1% of abortions occur in the third trimester, or after 28 weeks, according to the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists. Many of those abortions, the college wrote, involve problems that are "incompatible with life," such as a baby without a brain or organs that form outside the body.

"In these cases, where death is likely before or shortly after birth, patients may decide whether to continue the pregnancy and deliver a nonviable fetus or have an abortion," the college wrote.


[Edited on 5/16/2019 by porkchopbob]


KCJimmy - 5/16/2019 at 09:51 PM

quote:
Well, except RAPE. And women have the choice to terminate a pregnancy in their body before it develops. Life is full of choices.
I did say in MOST cases it is that simple.

quote:
Uh, sorry what? You're talking about a grown woman who no one argues isn't now a person. Can we stop torturing this poor woman and trying to get this sh1thead drunk driver a pass?
Exactly and why should a woman who get's drunk, isn't careful, makes bad choices have a choice that terminates a life in order to avoid the consequences? The drunk driver sure doesn't have that choice. Nor does the rapist, the murderer or the embezzler. Life is full of choices and they all have consequences.


KCJimmy - 5/16/2019 at 09:54 PM

quote:
One thing, there is no such thing as "after birth" abortions. Trump has recently mischaracterized and sensationalized a legitimate, rare yet tragic medical situation.

You been watching the news? The Governor of VA explained it so even I could understand.

quote:
I appreciate your candor. I don't think anyone takes the decision lightly but I believe the option should be available.
The problem is some people do take it lightly. How about these women that are "Proud to have had abortions"? There are some that want to treat it as just a choice and it is not just a choice. It's a big deal and if the choice is going to be available it shouldn't be so easy to make that choice.

[Edited on 5/16/2019 by KCJimmy]


BrerRabbit - 5/16/2019 at 09:55 PM

Man, in 99.9999999999% of cases it is the male who pushes for sex - looks to me like women are being flat out enslaved and forced to have kids. We give such a huge sh!t about kids then why are we making life so tough for women? It is bullsh!t. How about nipping these spermspewin punks in the bud, get their sterilization reversed after they pass a social functioning test with contract to marry?

Not so easy to digest when it is men being controlled is it? Well see thats what its like for a woman to have her body controlled by law.


BrerRabbit - 5/16/2019 at 09:59 PM

Its that "she got drunk" stuff, man you are blaming them.


KCJimmy - 5/16/2019 at 10:01 PM

I am right there with you Brer on the consequences for the mans choices. 99.9999% of our countries problems can be traced back to a MAN that made bad choices.

quote:
Its that "she got drunk" stuff, man you are blaming them.
It's an example. Maybe she wasn't drunk maybe she was just horny. Or maybe she was pressured. The dude is definitely 50% responsible no doubt. Point is MOST of the time is poor choices.

[Edited on 5/16/2019 by KCJimmy]


porkchopbob - 5/16/2019 at 10:01 PM

quote:
Exactly and why should a woman who get's drunk, isn't careful, makes bad choices have a choice that terminates a life in order to avoid the consequences? The drunk driver sure doesn't have that choice. Nor does the rapist, the murderer or the embezzler. Life is full of choices and they all have consequences.

You're comparing unprotected sex with violent felony crimes. Then it's a crystal-clear yes, she gets a do-over.


KCJimmy - 5/16/2019 at 10:07 PM

So choices have consequences unless you are a female that got pregnant by mistake?


porkchopbob - 5/16/2019 at 10:17 PM

quote:
You been watching the news? The Governor of VA explained it so even I could understand.


Well, you don't understand it then. Northam was referring to exactly the type of case I mentioned:
quote:
in cases where there may be severe deformities, there may be a fetus that’s non-viable


https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-northam-abortion-execute/

Trump (and others) then went on to bizarrely mischaracterize this situation as infanticide. I know someone who went through this, the baby's organs were growing outside of it's own body and could not survive, possibly to term. For the mother's health, the baby was terminated before it could die inside of her. They wanted a child, it was not what they desired or a decision that was made lightly (they name her and celebrate her birthday even after two healthy kids). But it was a choice they made. And it's complete bull **** the way it has been falsely characterized.


LeglizHemp - 5/16/2019 at 10:40 PM

Hmmmmm, not a single female comment in this thread.


gina - 5/16/2019 at 10:49 PM

Well Hemp, you asked. I think adoption is better than abortion. If the ladies find themselves pregnant and do not want to be, or are unable to take care of a child, they can allow others who really want one to adopt the child. If the mass of protoplasm would become a child if they did not abort it, then it already is one, so they need to think differently about it. In abortion, they rip the parts off the fetus it is gross, and they put a bucket at the bottom the table where the woman's body drains into. They do not just go in with a medical dust buster vacuum suction device and take it out all nicely.

Some of the legislation would put women in prison for having abortions. I don't think that is the answer either. I think Georgia just passed or is trying to pass something like that. Adoption hurts no one. Isn't that a better alternative to this problem? The women who are having abortions are killing something that is alive inside them, they do not have a right to kill, if they killed a regular person who was walking around, it would be considered murder. Just because the fetus doesn't talk, walk doesn't mean it is nothing or has no right. If it doesn't want to come into this world, it will miscarry or God has mercy on it and says okay you don't have to go there into that cold, cruel world. The decision should rest with God, not pharmaceutical companies making abortion pills for women who need one. IF THEY DON"T WANT THE CHILD, ADOPTION WILL TAKE CARE OF IT AND HARM NO ONE. BETTER SOLUTION.


LeglizHemp - 5/16/2019 at 11:11 PM

Thank you Gina


porkchopbob - 5/16/2019 at 11:19 PM

quote:
So choices have consequences unless you are a female that got pregnant by mistake?

I'm not sure why are equating "mistakenly" getting pregnant, which is not a crime, with VIOLENT FELONEY CRIME. Rape and murder are not "mistakes".

[Edited on 5/16/2019 by porkchopbob]


BrerRabbit - 5/17/2019 at 12:05 AM

quote:
Hmmmmm, not a single female comment in this thread.


You hadn't noticed the WP has been a sausage fest for maybe the last three or four years by now? We are like those POWs who have to play both roles when we put on plays.


BrerRabbit - 5/17/2019 at 12:55 AM

pretty cool , three pages in on a highly charged subject and no flaming. good work folks


nebish - 5/17/2019 at 01:54 AM

quote:
Well Hemp, you asked. I think adoption is better than abortion. If the ladies find themselves pregnant and do not want to be, or are unable to take care of a child, they can allow others who really want one to adopt the child. If the mass of protoplasm would become a child if they did not abort it, then it already is one, so they need to think differently about it. In abortion, they rip the parts off the fetus it is gross, and they put a bucket at the bottom the table where the woman's body drains into. They do not just go in with a medical dust buster vacuum suction device and take it out all nicely.

Some of the legislation would put women in prison for having abortions. I don't think that is the answer either. I think Georgia just passed or is trying to pass something like that. Adoption hurts no one. Isn't that a better alternative to this problem? The women who are having abortions are killing something that is alive inside them, they do not have a right to kill, if they killed a regular person who was walking around, it would be considered murder. Just because the fetus doesn't talk, walk doesn't mean it is nothing or has no right. If it doesn't want to come into this world, it will miscarry or God has mercy on it and says okay you don't have to go there into that cold, cruel world. The decision should rest with God, not pharmaceutical companies making abortion pills for women who need one. IF THEY DON"T WANT THE CHILD, ADOPTION WILL TAKE CARE OF IT AND HARM NO ONE. BETTER SOLUTION.



"The women who are having abortions are killing something that is alive inside them, they do not have a right to kill, if they killed a regular person who was walking around, it would be considered murder."

Yes they do have that right, it was decided in our lifetime that they have that right. A regular person walking around, no, illegal. An unborn living thing inside of them, yes, legal the court has said.

Why do so many people, the pro life group, think they should have influence over somebody else's decisions and life? The baby isn't theirs, why care? Why can't they just mind their own business?


gina - 5/17/2019 at 08:24 PM

There are many issues surrounding the controversy. Firstly how is abortion a Constitutional right as some claim? It has been said that it is covered under privacy laws of the Constitution.

The states are having their own statewide debates and enacting legislation in their own state regarding the issue, what right do they have to do this, if doing that is unconstitutional?

As someone pointed out today, birth control is widely available, pregnancy can be prevented. If it occurs then options should be made to the pregnant woman, adoption is the one which harms no one. Of course there are other issues, heavily pregnant women could have a hard time working full time jobs, states or the fed would have to grant them paid leave when they need it, ie. the first three months with morning sickness, if they are throwing up a lot, it would be hard to work most jobs. Either disability laws would have to be expanded so they could collect as necessary or something else would need to be done.

I believe people do need to have choices.

But they already do,

1) They can abstain from sex till marriage - then there is no worry because most pregnant wives do not have abortions.

2) They can use birth control preventing most pregnancies. Pick whatever form you like. Become educated and do not have sex during the 3 days a month when you can become (14-17 days of their cycle).

3) Enjoy their life and not worry about it, and if they become pregnant and are unable to take on the responsibility of raising a child, let someone else adopt it.

Those are choices already available. There ARE choices. No one is even trying to tell them what their moral code has to be. That is up to them.


This is a true story, a friend of mine's sister had this boyfriend we considered to be a jerk, she said he wanted to have sex with her but she did not want to become pregnant, and it came down to since the free clinic was too far away and she had no way to get there, if I would drive her there for birth control, then she would have sex, otherwise she would abstain. Even though I thought the boyfriend was a jerk, my friend and I drove her there so that she would be able to have a choice. Taking her there did not mean she would have to have sex with him, but if she did, she could at least be protected. She did have sex with him and later on dumped him. Now has a good husband, life, etc.

We should at least make contraception available to all women/girls who want it, without requiring parental consent.


https://www.fastcompany.com/90350385/this-map-shows-abortion-bans-by-u-s-st ate-in-2019?ref=hvper.com

https://www.al.com/news/2019/05/alabama-abortion-ban-passes-read-the-bill.h tml

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/4/19/18412384/georgia-abortion -heartbeat-bill-ohio-2019-iowa

https://news.yahoo.com/rnc-chairwoman-ronna-mcdaniel-says-194224694.html;_y lt=A0geKecHFt9c9QoA.hVXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEyZGs5bDRnBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aW QDQjc2NzZfMQRzZWMDc2M-


I do not agree with imprisoning any women or Doctors. Just charge the doctors a fine so that it is not financially worth it to them to be performing the procedures. Withhold insurance company financing for it.

With regards to pregnancies resultant from rapes, if they are unable to love the child as an innocent, the child knows nothing, then give it up for adoption. I would support the paternal father (rapist) having NO parental rights whatsoever in regards to the child.

We as a nation have to provide alternatives to what we are doing now. There can be places set up for the women to live in safety until they deliver their children where they can continue their education and get supportive counseling because any person who is considering an abortion is basically on their own, their boyfriend is not willing to make a long term relationship with them and help raise the child, if they are young they have family trauma/drama that they are unprepared to deal with, if they are trying to work they will need paid time off and supportive services. With the money reimbursed to hospitals and Dr.'s we could use that money to provide services for the women.








[Edited on 5/17/2019 by gina]


BIGV - 5/17/2019 at 09:20 PM

quote:
They can use birth control preventing most pregnancies. Pick whatever form you like. Become educated and do not have sex during the 3 days a month when you can become (14-17 days of their cycle)


Is there still a way to blame men with this theory?


BrerRabbit - 5/18/2019 at 03:00 PM

Is there still a way to blame men if you are pro-choice?


BrerRabbit - 5/18/2019 at 03:27 PM

quote:
When does life begin?


Life as a separate entity begins with the spermatozoa. A sperm is an independent mobile carbon based life form, with a programmed rudimentary intelligence to carry out its mission. it even has a spine, while the egg is a passive and inactive element of the female reproductive system.

Every sperm is sacred. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bzVHjg3AqIQ


cyclone88 - 5/19/2019 at 02:28 AM

It's mind-boggling that abortion is a single issue vote for some people in 2019. Aren't there about 10 other issues one can name that are more important to the security & stability of the US?

Abortion is legal. The law in Alabama is unconstitutional & will be struck down in the lowest federal court.



[Edited on 5/19/2019 by cyclone88]


BrerRabbit - 5/19/2019 at 02:56 AM

Glad I got to read the unredacted version. Well said.

Any man who has ever given himself a "dishonorable discharge" is guilty of the termination of hundreds of millions of potential human lives - and should be executed for genocide.


AussieTiger - 5/19/2019 at 06:53 AM

Fascinating thread with a lot of (mostly) intelligent male views.
There are so many factors/reasons why abortion might be someone's choice.
Sure Gina, you gave a few options one could consider instead however, there is a situation that stands out to me in which abortion would be the obvious choice.
If you became pregnant (by choice), but your health took a turn for to the worse and the medical advice was "If you continue this pregnancy you may not survive" would you continue with it? Or would you save your life? I know what I'd choose.

Us women should all gather and pass laws where all males get a vasectomy (but its reversible !) until the woman is ready for that male to reproduce. Solves a lot of issues. Dont agree? How dare a woman make such a choice for the male body? Right. Back off and let women make the choice for ourselves


alanwoods - 5/19/2019 at 12:18 PM

quote:
It's mind-boggling that abortion is a single issue vote for some people in 2019. Aren't there about 10 other issues one can name that are more important to the security & stability of the US?





In a nutshell, the most profound statement in this thread.


alanwoods - 5/19/2019 at 12:19 PM

quote:
quote:
When does life begin?


Life as a separate entity begins with the spermatozoa. A sperm is an independent mobile carbon based life form, with a programmed rudimentary intelligence to carry out its mission. it even has a spine, while the egg is a passive and inactive element of the female reproductive system.

Every sperm is sacred. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bzVHjg3AqIQ




Scientific experiment it is!


Lee - 5/19/2019 at 12:43 PM

Not to get into the middle of this debate, which is pointless in my opinion. Is anyone going to change someone else's opinion on this?

But something kind of related. When I was in high school when a girl got pregnant she was shipped to a special school for girls that were "that way". Even even I thought is was really wrong.


BIGV - 5/19/2019 at 02:15 PM

quote:
It's mind-boggling that abortion is a single issue vote for some people in 2019.


What's "mind boggling" about it?...At least they are going to the Polls and participating in the process. What is mind boggling is the number of citizens who don't Vote at all.


BrerRabbit - 5/19/2019 at 03:07 PM

quote:
Us women should all gather and pass laws where all males get a vasectomy (but its reversible !) until the woman is ready for that male to reproduce. Solves a lot of issues. Dont agree? How dare a woman make such a choice for the male body? Right. Back off and let women make the choice for ourselves


Great to hear a female perspective for once around here. About time, on a topic that impacts women so severely.

If laws were passed controlling anything on the male side, even some little thing like say mandatory condom use, there would be mass noncompliance, probably riots and war.




BIGV - 5/19/2019 at 03:22 PM

quote:
quote:
Us women should all gather and pass laws where all males get a vasectomy (but its reversible !) until the woman is ready for that male to reproduce. Solves a lot of issues. Dont agree? How dare a woman make such a choice for the male body? Right. Back off and let women make the choice for ourselves


Great to hear a female perspective for once around here. About time, on a topic that impacts women so severely.

If laws were passed controlling anything on the male side, even some little thing like say mandatory condom use, there would be mass noncompliance, probably riots and war.


This will have validity the moment Men can give birth, until that time, women have the power to control the choice concerning the responsibility of becoming pregnant.


cyclone88 - 5/19/2019 at 03:34 PM

The fervor by some to impose their religious/philosophical/existential beliefs onto American citizens via the law & extend those beliefs into the medical decisions of strangers mystifies me. Adults have the absolute right to pursue or refuse medical treatment. Children's medical decisions are made by their parents. There is no other class of person beyond adult & child.

Embryos - whether created to be implanted & gestated through a mother or surrogate or frozen for future use are, by law, PROPERTY. They are owned by their creators & are subject to PROPERTY/CONTRACT law.

Religion may play a role in an individual's medical decision making. Certain life-saving interventions such as organ transplants, bone marrow transplants, blood transfusions, artificial respiration, feeding tubes, and even pain relief are anathema to some established religions. As a result, people whose lives might otherwise have been saved, die. However, those religiously-guided people apply their deeply held beliefs only to themselves & don't impose or attempt to impose them on the rest of America.

The US isn't a theocracy like The Vatican or Iran. It's a democracy w/a constitution that intentionally & forcefully divides politics & religion. We are free to adhere to our religious beliefs but don't have the right to impose them on others. Discrimination is also prohibited. Many states' attempts to circumvent federal law merely create discrimination. There are women & girls who will always have access to abortion. Those who won't are the most vulnerable women & girls thereby creating discrimination & the unconstitutionality of these state exercises in futility.

Believe abortion is wrong. Don't have one. Ask/beg your wife, daughter, girlfriend, one-night-stand, mistress or whoever is pregnant by you not to have one. Beyond that, put your efforts into constitutionally valid causes that benefit the security & stability of the US.





BrerRabbit - 5/19/2019 at 03:41 PM

quote:
This will have validity the moment Men can give birth, until that time, women have the power to control the choice concerning the responsibility of becoming pregnant.


Controlling male fertility is a perfectly valid and feasible possibility with current technology. Men also possess the "power to control the choice concerning the responsibility of becoming pregnant", as you put it.


[Edited on 5/19/2019 by BrerRabbit]


BrerRabbit - 5/19/2019 at 03:50 PM

quote:
The fervor by some to impose their religious/philosophical/existential beliefs onto American citizens via the law & extend those beliefs into the medical decisions of strangers mystifies me. Adults have the absolute right to pursue or refuse medical treatment. Children's medical decisions are made by their parents. There is no other class of person beyond adult & child.

Embryos - whether created to be implanted & gestated through a mother or surrogate or frozen for future use are, by law, PROPERTY. They are owned by their creators & are subject to PROPERTY/CONTRACT law.

Religion may play a role in an individual's medical decision making. Certain life-saving interventions such as organ transplants, bone marrow transplants, blood transfusions, artificial respiration, feeding tubes, and even pain relief are anathema to some established religions. As a result, people whose lives might otherwise have been saved, die. However, those religiously-guided people apply their deeply held beliefs only to themselves & don't impose or attempt to impose them on the rest of America.

The US isn't a theocracy like The Vatican or Iran. It's a democracy w/a constitution that intentionally & forcefully divides politics & religion. We are free to adhere to our religious beliefs but don't have the right to impose them on others. Discrimination is also prohibited. Many states' attempts to circumvent federal law merely create discrimination. There are women & girls who will always have access to abortion. Those who won't are the most vulnerable women & girls thereby creating discrimination & the unconstitutionality of these state exercises in futility.

Believe abortion is wrong. Don't have one. Ask/beg your wife, daughter, girlfriend, one-night-stand, mistress or whoever is pregnant by you not to have one. Beyond that, put your efforts into constitutionally valid causes that benefit the security & stability of the US.


Good post cyclone - unfortunately your rational approach to the equation does not factor in the absolute madness and invasive self-righteous bullying of the hardwired evangelical program.

[Edited on 5/19/2019 by BrerRabbit]


BrerRabbit - 5/19/2019 at 04:05 PM

Written by an elderly relative of mine, about getting an abortion in the early 1930s, she was already married with three kids, and working as a nurse for Red Cross:


Recalling Illegal Abortion

Over 50 years ago I had an abortion. Of course, at that time it was illegal, but there was no public protest or self-righteous moralizing, either, as there is today. At that time, birth control information was as hard to obtain as abortion information, even from doctors.

There was a nightmare quality to the fear of finding oneself pregnant when not wanting a pregnancy. I have a friend, well past menopause, who says she still sometimes starts from sleep with that feeling of dreaded entrapment.

In my case, the reason for seeking an abortion was that, having had two spontaneous miscarriages at the seventh month period, facing another pregnancy so soon was insupportable. A delivery at seven months is not too different from a full-term delivery. There is the same labor, trauma of delivery and period of recovery. Those who performed abortions did so very secretly and, if discovered, were arrested and sent to jail. The label abortionist carried great stigma.

Considering these facts, it is rather surprising that it was relatively easy to learn where an abortion could be obtained. The information we needed came from someone at my husband’s work place, and the recommended place was said to be reliable. And so it proved to be.

I made a visit to the "clinic" to be interviewed and registered. Naturally, I went alone and without the knowledge of anyone. At the appointed date, I went to the place, which was in one of San Francisco’s many old row houses, in a quiet, edge-of-town area.

The operation was performed in a room that, while not hospital-like, was clean and spacious. Everything about the procedure and place had the appearance of being sanitary and carefully arranged.

The man who did the abortion wore a hood over his head, so I never would have been able to identify him. The nurse who attended him wore nothing over her face.

Afterward I was allowed to rest in a clean and comfortable bed for about an hour, when I was released to go home, on the streetcar.

In light of today’s antiabortion uproar, it seemed an easy, uneventful experience. It is my opinion many of those who make the loudest and most vocal protest have little knowledge about the subject. Someone leads and they rise up and follow. One has to wonder, also, if some of those are motivated by an uneasy conscience.

At any rate, I had no feeling of guilt at the time, nor have I ever regretted the decision, which was unequivocally mine to make.

[Edited on 5/19/2019 by BrerRabbit]


cyclone88 - 5/19/2019 at 04:30 PM

quote:
unfortunately your rational approach to the equation does not factor in the absolute madness and invasive self-righteous bullying of the hardwired evangelical program.
[Edited on 5/19/2019 by BrerRabbit]

I naively or not still believe in law, reason & the constitution - after all, Roe was decided by 9 MEN. I also live in the very cramped quarters of NYC where tolerance is necessary to survive, but I wonder what politicians & candidates would look like if this 50-year-old law was taken out of the equation.


porkchopbob - 5/19/2019 at 04:50 PM

quote:
This will have validity the moment Men can give birth, until that time, women have the power to control the choice concerning the responsibility of becoming pregnant.

Last I checked how condoms worked, Men do have the power to control whether or not they decide to roll the dice. Unless your name is Mary, it still takes two. However, as long as men can walk away from the responsibility (or defund the means to readily available contraceptives) women should be allowed to make the choice.


BrerRabbit - 5/19/2019 at 07:12 PM

This has gotta be a Whipping Post first: 80+ posts so far on an extremely controversial topic - folks actually offering opposing views without beating each other up, or going for the throat, calling each other idiots and worse.



BIGV - 5/19/2019 at 10:50 PM

quote:
quote:
This will have validity the moment Men can give birth, until that time, women have the power to control the choice concerning the responsibility of becoming pregnant.

Last I checked how condoms worked, Men do have the power to control whether or not they decide to roll the dice. Unless your name is Mary, it still takes two. However, as long as men can walk away from the responsibility (or defund the means to readily available contraceptives) women should be allowed to make the choice.


I guess my belief is the ultimate decision for consensual sex lies with the woman and the word "NO"....Men can wear a condom and women can say no.....


BrerRabbit - 5/19/2019 at 11:21 PM

quote:
. . .the ultimate decision for consensual sex lies with the woman and the word "NO". . .


Fine then, blame women if it that is your tradition, nobody can challenge your personal beliefs. Either way, whether men or women are to blame is a matter of private opinion and has no bearing on women's rights as they stand at present.


alanwoods - 5/19/2019 at 11:30 PM

quote:
This has gotta be a Whipping Post first: 80+ posts so far on an extremely controversial topic - folks actually offering opposing views without beating each other up, or going for the throat, calling each other idiots and worse.





Yeah, well, BoytonBrother hasn't posted yet, has he?


BrerRabbit - 5/19/2019 at 11:44 PM

Lol. In my case it is a nice break from being called junior son the bloodthirsty genocidal nihlist anarchist biggest racist on Whipping Post.

well remarkably civil, and not in a phony or boring way too.


porkchopbob - 5/20/2019 at 12:31 PM

quote:
I guess my belief is the ultimate decision for consensual sex lies with the woman and the word "NO"....Men can wear a condom and women can say no.....

"Consensual" means both agree. If a dude doesn't wear a condom, to paraphrase some here, his actions have consequences.


BIGV - 5/20/2019 at 01:34 PM

quote:
quote:
I guess my belief is the ultimate decision for consensual sex lies with the woman and the word "NO"....Men can wear a condom and women can say no.....

"Consensual" means both agree. If a dude doesn't wear a condom, to paraphrase some here, his actions have consequences.


Agreed. If a dude doesn’t wear a condom and it is consensual, could one argue that it is the woman’s choice to become pregnant?


BrerRabbit - 5/20/2019 at 01:54 PM

quote:
If a dude doesn’t wear a condom and it is consensual, could one argue that it is the woman’s choice to become pregnant?


Sure, one could argue that, if one were a conservative legislator grasping at straws to outlaw abortion in one of the many states doing so. I don't see any other reason one would argue along those lines.

"Pro-choice" means you can opt out of having a child. Whether or not you wanted to become pregnant in the first place.

So what is your point with this continuing attempt to prove that women want to get pregnant?

Are you one of these "she was asking for it" type of guys?



BIGV - 5/20/2019 at 02:00 PM

quote:
quote:
If a dude doesn’t wear a condom and it is consensual, could one argue that it is the woman’s choice to become pregnant?


Sure, one could argue that, if one were a conservative legislator grasping at straws to outlaw abortion in one of the many states doing so. I don't see any other reason one would argue along those lines.

"Pro-choice" means you can opt out of having a child. Whether or not you wanted to become pregnant in the first place.

So what is your point with this continuing attempt to prove that women want to get pregnant?

Are you one of these "she was asking for it" type of guys?


I am Pro-Choice and yes I have a difficult time with this issue. I feel the argument has swung to the side where woman are totally without blame here in defense of their right to choose...

At what point is an abortion wrong?


porkchopbob - 5/20/2019 at 02:01 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
I guess my belief is the ultimate decision for consensual sex lies with the woman and the word "NO"....Men can wear a condom and women can say no.....

"Consensual" means both agree. If a dude doesn't wear a condom, to paraphrase some here, his actions have consequences.

Agreed. If a dude doesn’t wear a condom and it is consensual, could one argue that it is the woman’s choice to become pregnant?

It's also the man's choice to make her pregnant. Otherwise this is an incredibly narrow view that ignores many factors or possibilities (faulty birth control, irregular cycle, many other issues that women are better able to relate than you and I). There is an eagerness here to blame 1 party for the actions of 2 for something that often is an accident. But since we agree women should have the choice to control their body after the fact, I'm not going to argue the semantics and various factors of how a man might get a woman pregnant since the "how" is irrelevant.


BrerRabbit - 5/20/2019 at 02:22 PM



quote:
At what point is an abortion wrong


That depends on where you live.




cyclone88 - 5/20/2019 at 02:25 PM

There's a lot of chat about condom use for consenting adults. Quite frankly, if a guy isn't using a condom w/anyone other than his faithful wife, he's open to STDs plus pregnancy. The old adage you're not just sleeping w/her, you're sleeping w/all the other guys she's been with...

I'm more concerned about abortion for the 11-yr-old girl who is abused by her (father, brother, mom's boyfriend, neighborhood predator, uncle, grandfather, fill-in-the-blank), a college student roofied & raped by an entitled frat boy, a pregnant married woman who discovers she has cancer & is told life-saving chemo will severely damage the fetus, & the Halle Berry phenom where a 47-yr-old married woman who believes her family is complete & has been told by her doc she's beyond child-bearing age discovers she has a "geriatric pregnancy" w/health risks to herself & the fetus.


BrerRabbit - 5/20/2019 at 02:39 PM

All valid.

Hey! What about this idea, not mentioned by anyone so far, on either side: All rape incest health dramatics and tragice extremes aside:

What if someone just plain does not wish to continue with a pregnancy? What if they simply do not feel like it?

Wow, what a radical notion. That it is a basic right, and you can shove your moralizing. Amazing how the religious programmng framed the question in terms of "extreme cases", just one small push more to "in no cases".


cyclone88 - 5/20/2019 at 03:00 PM

quote:
What about this idea, not mentioned by anyone so far, on either side:

And here I thought you read my posts.

My first (& only) point was that abortion is legal. Period. 9 MEN decided that 50 years ago.

It's the attempt to restrict if not deny universal access that keeps dragging this single law into the political arena to the exclusion of more urgent policy legislation & decisions. Think of all the time, money, and brain power that might be applied to actual issues!!!!!


BrerRabbit - 5/20/2019 at 03:19 PM

cyclone yes I did read your posts. You did spell it out. It is just surreal that even ostensibly "pro-choice" voters are getting all wishywashy with all this "extreme cases" apologistics. The whole conversation is way out on the right now. Folks forget that we live in the modern world, where termination of pregnancy is legal, safe, available, and affordable. Forcing the issue out to hang on rape, incest, all that is just a push toward banning.


cyclone88 - 5/20/2019 at 04:26 PM

quote:
Folks forget that we live in the modern world, where termination of pregnancy is legal, safe, available, and affordable

Those who find this unacceptable also cling to the mystifying belief that adoption is a slam/dunk alternative. Realistically, many affluent couples prefer to adopt a baby from Eastern Europe and Eurasia than the US & those are the most heavily promoted agencies for private adoption conduits.

IMO, affluent women rely increasingly on non-invasive post-intercourse procedures like medication & devices in addition to abortion. Big Pharma (which DOES have influence in DC) has more efficient, effective, & wider window alternatives in the pipeline. I foresee a time when abortion is an obsolete invasive medical procedure & Roe is moot.

Would it help if I called you son so the thread is livelier?




BIGV - 5/20/2019 at 04:44 PM

quote:
Think of all the time, money, and brain power that might be applied to actual issues!!!!!




Kinda like Congress?


BrerRabbit - 5/20/2019 at 05:04 PM


quote:
Would it help if I called you son so the thread is livelier?


No problem junior!


nebish - 5/20/2019 at 11:38 PM

I appreciate cyclone88's contributions to this thread!


cyclone88 - 5/21/2019 at 12:23 AM

quote:
I appreciate cyclone88's contributions to this thread!


Why, thank you. As Mr. Rabbit points out, we do seem to be having civil discussions about what can be inflammatory topics these days. Things will probably heat up as we move into 2020.


BIGV - 5/21/2019 at 06:37 PM

"To say that the Fetus is a person if the mother wants it and it's not if she doesn't is not science. It's spin"

William McGurn


BrerRabbit - 5/21/2019 at 06:49 PM

Pro-choice my @ss.


BIGV - 5/21/2019 at 07:09 PM

quote:
Pro-choice my @ss.


I am absolutely. Growing tired of women yelling at Men trying to take away "Their rights".....

It's your body, none of the Governments business; act like adults and not victims


porkchopbob - 5/21/2019 at 07:30 PM

quote:
I am absolutely. Growing tired of women yelling at Men trying to take away "Their rights".....

It's your body, none of the Governments business; act like adults and not victims

Wait, you're tired of the politicians trying to take away women's rights or you're tired about women yelling about it?

[Edited on 5/21/2019 by porkchopbob]


BrerRabbit - 5/21/2019 at 07:32 PM

Ok, if you are so "pro-choice", how about one itty bitty post saying why you support women in this regard. All I have ever seen from you is that you are "pro choice", all your actual words go to undermining that position. Quoting McGurn, he is vehemently against the right to choose.

Unfortunately this is an issue where you end up on a side whether you want to or not.

I am flat out pro-choice. My wife and I chose to have a kid. Because we were personally uncomfortable with abortion. Personal decision. Kid stone autistic, still a toddler at 14, I have been pretty much mom and dad, primary caregiver his whole life. By choice. How many guys out there have done fulltime mom work? Let alone for a permanent baby?

Men want a say in pregnancy? Then how about men earning that right by stepping up and doing child care?









porkchopbob - 5/21/2019 at 07:38 PM

quote:
"To say that the Fetus is a person if the mother wants it and it's not if she doesn't is not science. It's spin"

William McGurn

Can you cite where someone has tried to have it both ways? Because, as I mentioned before, many of the laws that protect a fetus "as a person" were introduced by pro-life politicians.


BIGV - 5/21/2019 at 08:56 PM

quote:
Ok, if you are so "pro-choice", how about one itty bitty post saying why you support women in this regard.


Alright. Because I have never walked a foot, much less a mile in their shoes. I have however been a participant in this decision making process, ultimately acquiescing to my girlfriends thoughts and choice.

Once again admitting that this is a deeply personal decision to end a life, I stand in no ones way once that choice has been made and advocate for no law prohibiting that choice.

I appreciate the discussion taking place here and the civility involved but remain torn between taking part in a legal activity while terminating a life.

The point is and will remain "When does a Human life begin"?


cyclone88 - 5/21/2019 at 09:38 PM

quote:
The point is and will remain "When does a Human life begin"?


That is a religious, philosophical, existential question that has nothing to do w/law. Individuals follow the tenets of whatever religion or philosophy they practice in their personal decision-making about many topics, including medical decisions free from government interference. That question applies equally to when does life end.


BrerRabbit - 5/21/2019 at 09:50 PM

quote:
The point is and will remain "When does a Human life begin"?


Ok ante up. When do you think it begins? I honestly do not know, and I regard the matter in terms of mother's requirements first.

This matter has been managed differently according to custom throughout history. The main point seems to rather be "do you force your beliefs and customs on others?"


BIGV - 5/21/2019 at 09:52 PM

quote:
quote:
The point is and will remain "When does a Human life begin"?


That question applies equally to when does life end.


Are there 3 trimesters regarding the ending of life?

Death is pretty damn final


cyclone88 - 5/21/2019 at 10:04 PM

quote:
Death is pretty damn final

Cardiac death is final. However, since the 1960s when life support usage became widespread, that question is raised in hospitals every day & encompasses persistent vegetative state, coma, & so-called "brain" death that calls into question organ harvesting, artificial nutrition & hydration, hope v. futility, and the religious benefit of suffering.


BIGV - 5/21/2019 at 11:23 PM

quote:
quote:
The point is and will remain "When does a Human life begin"?


Ok ante up. When do you think it begins?


I do not profess to know either. My belief? Life begins and ends with the beating of a heart.


BrerRabbit - 5/22/2019 at 01:41 AM

Heartbeat, eh? That's pretty generous. That certainly cuts you a couple months of moral slack. Don't feel bad, For me life begins when the sperm separates and embarks upon its holy quest. I get another billion years in hell every time I spill the blessed seed, one year for each precious life robbed of its godgiven right to a chance at glory. I might have to convert to your belief system, it is a lot more relaxed.


nebish - 5/22/2019 at 02:24 AM

I do believe abortion is killing a life, be it an embryo or an early stage fetus - before or after the heartbeat. I think that abortion at 2 weeks or 10 weeks, an unborn baby is being killed. I do not think it is my business, or the government's if the mother wants to or has a need to terminate her pregnancy.


BrerRabbit - 5/22/2019 at 04:19 AM

Not challenging your beliefs, at all, seriously nothing but respect for personal belief - just have to point out that you are begging the law to step in if you define abortion as murder.

This is getting pretty tender, getting close to home for all of us. Pretty grim thread. Good angles, but we can only get so far without more input from women so I'm pleased with leaving off. It will sort itself out.


nebish - 5/22/2019 at 12:50 PM

True, it could be considered murder. I just think that anyone who believes in abortion needs to be honest with what is happening. A life is being ended.

I am also fine with capital punishment and think it needs expanded, not eliminated as some states are doing - but that is the choice of the voters and representatives of those states.

I also believe in medically assisted suicide for those with terminal conditions that are competent to make such a decision for themselves. Obviously an unborn baby in the mother's womb does not control such a decision, but that is the fact that the court has ruled it is the mother's option and right for the procedure. If it all changed tomorrow, well, that is fine too. I would rather it not change, but if it did there are a couple dozen other things effecting our nation as a whole that are more important.

[Edited on 5/22/2019 by nebish]


BrerRabbit - 5/22/2019 at 03:23 PM

Slavery is pretty important. Tore this country in half once and will again if half the population decides to physically control the other half. It ties into the very foundations of liberty. To shrug it off as unimportant shows a total unawareness of the women's side of history.


cyclone88 - 5/22/2019 at 04:12 PM

I'm being redundant, I know, but FFS, what anyone "believes" is fine in their own head. It has no bearing on the legal rights of others.


nebish - 5/22/2019 at 06:33 PM

True, it is law. And if SOTUS should ever overturn it, that too will then be law. I "believe" that would be the wrong decision, but the nation will survive.


BrerRabbit - 5/22/2019 at 08:04 PM

Nevermind. Like I said, it will sort itself out. Enjoy the 14th century!


piacere - 5/23/2019 at 01:44 PM

quote:
Nevermind. Like I said, it will sort itself out. Enjoy the 14th century!


Yo BR, what's up? Enjoy your posts. Enjoy a few others too, BIGV, cyclone, good stuff. Touchy thread indeed. Was wondering, what you mean by "it will sort itself out". Seems rather ambiguous.


gina - 5/25/2019 at 12:10 AM

quote:
True, it could be considered murder. I just think that anyone who believes in abortion needs to be honest with what is happening. A life is being ended.

I am also fine with capital punishment and think it needs expanded, not eliminated as some states are doing - but that is the choice of the voters and representatives of those states.

I also believe in medically assisted suicide for those with terminal conditions that are competent to make such a decision for themselves. Obviously an unborn baby in the mother's womb does not control such a decision, but that is the fact that the court has ruled it is the mother's option and right for the procedure. If it all changed tomorrow, well, that is fine too. I would rather it not change, but if it did there are a couple dozen other things effecting our nation as a whole that are more important.

[Edited on 5/22/2019 by nebish]



Making it a felony or putting women or doctor's in prison doesn't seem the way to handle it. Women should not have to go to back alley people, that's horrible too. The women need to realize that they have choices, one is birth control, that should be available and paid for by insurance companies, adoption needs to be available to them also if they cannot deal with raising the child and there needs to be paid time off if the woman is expected to carry the child full term and then give the child into adoption.

Gloria Allred told a horrible account of what happened to her.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/gloria-allred-new-york-city-pro-choice-ble eding-to-death-back-alley-abortion-bill-de-blasio


Women’s rights attorney Gloria Allred told a gathering in New York City on Tuesday that she nearly bled to death from an illegal abortion in the 1960s after she was raped at gunpoint while on vacation in Mexico. She explained that she didn't realize she was pregnant until she returned to the U.S., where abortion was still illegal in most states.

Allred said that when she began hemorrhaging during the procedure, the person performing the abortion told her it was “your problem now."

“The only time a hospital would admit a woman like me was if she was bleeding to death from an abortion," Allred said. "The nurse told me, ‘This should teach you a lesson.'


There are many issues and sides to this problem. It does not need to be criminalized, if a Doctor and hospital want to perform them, and the women want them, that probably should be between the woman and her doctor. It should not be used as a convenience and the financial greed needs to be taken out of it. Set a low fee that is affordable for the women to pay, or if they cannot pay it, the hospital can write it off. Do not have the insurance companies profiteering off it. If there were better alternatives available, the women might not feel that is their only option.

There is no comprehensive safe adoption system in this country. There are desperate infertile couples, there are greedy baby brokers who will sell it to someone and make a big profit. The states and communities should set up programs to help the women, and foster care is worse than taking an animal to the pound. That's the system we have now. That needs to be changed.

[Edited on 5/25/2019 by gina]


gina - 5/25/2019 at 12:15 AM

ACLU and Planned Parenthood filed lawsuits today, Friday against the ruling passed in Alabama.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-abortion-alabama/groups-sue-over-ala bama-abortion-law-judge-blocks-mississippi-ban-idUSKCN1SU1OE


playallnite - 5/26/2019 at 12:25 AM

I would never serve in todays military,seeing that approximately half the people you'd be fighting or defending would be republicans and they certainly are not worthy.


gina - 6/10/2019 at 11:16 PM

A hotel owner decided to do something for the women from southern states who want an abortion but cannot get one in their home states. Give them a free hotel stay, and transportation to and from the place where they will get an abortion.

https://www.kmov.com/news/a-michigan-hotel-is-offering-free-accommodations- for-anyone-traveling/article_9c2d9b05-6e6b-58f6-b4eb-d96e9e95223c.html

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/yale-hotel-michigan-abortion_n_5cfd0675e4b02 ee347789213


So Shelley O'Brien, manager of The Yale Hotel in the tiny Michigan town of Yale, made an offer to anyone traveling out of their state for the procedure: Come to Michigan and stay at her hotel for free.

"Dear sisters that live in Alabama, Ohio, Georgia, Arkansas, Missouri, or any of the other states that follow with similar laws restricting access, We cannot do anything about the way you are being treated in your home-state," the post reads.

"But, if you can make it to Michigan, we will support you with several nights lodging, and transportation to and from your appointment," the post reads.

It was a bold stance for the mother of three to take in her largely conservative town that's home to fewer than 2,000 people. But O'Brien said she felt it was important.

"Women should have autonomy over their own bodies," she said. "If we do not have control over our own bodies, then this is not a free world."

The debate goes on.

[Edited on 6/10/2019 by gina]


gina - 6/10/2019 at 11:21 PM

And this man wants to pay for the abortions for any women who need them.

"And in the wake of all this news, one unsuspecting ally has come forward: the founder and CEO of SeekingArrangement, Brandon Wade. SeekingArrangement is a popular (and controversial) site that describes itself as connecting "Sugar Babies" to "Sugar Daddies or Mommas" in order to create "mutually beneficial relationships."

Wade said he learned that these types of laws are designed to hurt "the weakest and the poorest" among us. "If lawmakers will not step in and help these desperate women, then I will," he said. "Although Alabama’s law has yet to take effect, I’m working proactively with Zoe to launch a charity, Fight Against Poverty, so that when any state makes the decision to deny women the right to make choices about her body, we can help. We will provide women and families, who cannot afford to provide for themselves, travel out of their home state to access proper healthcare and to exercise their right, their choice."

https://www.elle.com/culture/career-politics/a27748656/brandon-wade-seeking arrangement-abortion-charity/



MartinD28 - 6/10/2019 at 11:29 PM

You wonder how many of those who are anti choice are also anti Medicaid expansion. Think about it. They are pro birth but really not pro life. Make sure that in many cases the baby is born but the heck with the medical care after the fact.

Maybe these anti people should step up to the plate and be the first to adopt. It's great to be judged by someone who doesn't know you nor your socio-economic background than for them to adopt the baby. Better to force political and religious beliefs on strangers than to adopt.


BIGV - 6/11/2019 at 04:41 PM

quote:
Maybe these anti people should step up to the plate and be the first to adopt.


Absolutely spot on.


gina - 6/15/2019 at 07:29 PM

quote:
You wonder how many of those who are anti choice are also anti Medicaid expansion. Think about it. They are pro birth but really not pro life. Make sure that in many cases the baby is born but the heck with the medical care after the fact.

Maybe these anti people should step up to the plate and be the first to adopt. It's great to be judged by someone who doesn't know you nor your socio-economic background than for them to adopt the baby. Better to force political and religious beliefs on strangers than to adopt.


Nobody should be forcing anything on anybody, but there are many issues involved.
1) Should the govt. and or insurance companies pay for the procedures?
2) Should there be criminal penalties levied on the Doctors and/or women who get them?
3) Is it right to force a woman to carry a child she does not want and has no way to take care of?
4) Would it lead to the govt. instituting eugenics on poor women or just denying them funds for the procedure?
5) Should states just take care of it themselves without any Supreme Court intervention like the Roe v Wade legislation, what role should the federal govt. have in it?


https://news.yahoo.com/illinois-governor-signs-bill-scrapping-192503045.htm l;_ylt=A2KLfSvPRAVdgBcAPSxXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEycHBtMWNzBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBH Z0aWQDQjY4MzNfMQRzZWMDc2M-

The Reproductive Health Act states that “a fertilized egg, embryo, or fetus does not have independent rights under the laws of this state” and that an individual has a “fundamental right” to abortion.

“If you believe in standing up for women’s fundamental rights, Illinois is a beacon of hope in the heart of this nation,” Pritzker said before signing the law. “We trust women.”

The bill scraps a requirement that a second physician sign off on an abortion performed after viability (around 24 weeks) and permits the procedure for the “health of the patient,” which includes “all factors that are relevant to the patient’s health and well-being, including, but not limited to, physical, emotional, psychological, and familial health and age.”

The law also repeals Illinois’s Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act, although that procedure, usually performed extremely late in a pregnancy, is still prohibited by federal law. Certain non-doctor medical professionals would be permitted to perform abortions under the law, and all health insurers would be required to cover the procedure.

The Thomas More Society, a Chicago-based pro-life law firm, accused the state of “legalizing the death penalty, with no possibility of appeal, for viable unborn preemies” in passing the law. The group’s vice president, Peter Breen, a former Illinois representative, called the bill “the most radical sweeping pro-abortion measure in America” and said it “makes Illinois an abortion destination for the country.”

Remarks: The way the Governor of Illinois wrote the legislation, that the egg, embryo, or fetus does not have INDEPENDENT rights under the legislation in the state of Illinois, means that it is not a separate entity entitled to any Constitutional right because it is part of the Mother and the “health of the patient,” which includes “all factors that are relevant to the patient’s health and well-being, including, but not limited to, physical, emotional, psychological, and familial health and age.” He includes ALL factors of the Mother's health including emotional, psychological. It seems like he pretty much covers all the bases, whereas others who drafted legislation focused on abortion only if the Mother's life/health was in jeopardy. He is not separating the physical health of the woman from the rest of her.

It will continue to be an issue of contention and dissention. Medical issues are best decided between a patient and their Doctor rather than an insurance review board. In any case I do not think anyone should be charged with felonies for performing or getting an abortion; but women need to know there are alternatives, and adoption gives the child a chance to have a life that would otherwise be snuffed out. She should not be shamed for feeling 'I cannot deal with this', two people can make a mistake, accidents happen, but the child should have a chance to live if communities can provide the services for this.


gina - 6/15/2019 at 07:33 PM

quote:
You wonder how many of those who are anti choice are also anti Medicaid expansion. Think about it. They are pro birth but really not pro life. Make sure that in many cases the baby is born but the heck with the medical care after the fact.

Maybe these anti people should step up to the plate and be the first to adopt. It's great to be judged by someone who doesn't know you nor your socio-economic background than for them to adopt the baby. Better to force political and religious beliefs on strangers than to adopt.


What do you mean by Medicaid expansion? California recently passed legislation to provide Medicaid for undocumented people, ie. those crossing our borders illegally, who want to stay and live here. They will receive Medicaid, and free education in California, even though they are not citizens. The non-citizenship becomes a techicality, and it is nice being called 'undocumented' than an illegal alien, which sounds like someone from outer space.

With the insurance crisis in our country, should we be providing undocumented citizens with medical care beyond the vaccinations/immunizations necessary at border crossings? What is our responsibility in this regard?


MartinD28 - 6/16/2019 at 10:16 PM

quote:
quote:
You wonder how many of those who are anti choice are also anti Medicaid expansion. Think about it. They are pro birth but really not pro life. Make sure that in many cases the baby is born but the heck with the medical care after the fact.

Maybe these anti people should step up to the plate and be the first to adopt. It's great to be judged by someone who doesn't know you nor your socio-economic background than for them to adopt the baby. Better to force political and religious beliefs on strangers than to adopt.


What do you mean by Medicaid expansion? California recently passed legislation to provide Medicaid for undocumented people, ie. those crossing our borders illegally, who want to stay and live here. They will receive Medicaid, and free education in California, even though they are not citizens. The non-citizenship becomes a techicality, and it is nice being called 'undocumented' than an illegal alien, which sounds like someone from outer space.

With the insurance crisis in our country, should we be providing undocumented citizens with medical care beyond the vaccinations/immunizations necessary at border crossings? What is our responsibility in this regard?


Medicaid expansion - You list one of fifty states as an example. That's statistically significant? Why don't you expand the discussion into states who have shut down expansion or are attempting to not expand.

Your paragraph 2 - Who is talking about undocumented citizens? Oh...it's you. The original post never mentioned nor implied that.


LUKE - 6/18/2019 at 03:39 AM

Never seen or heard of a woman,or a man,with 2 heart's,8 leg's,8 arm's,4 eye's,4 ear's,2 brain's etc.So get off the lame ass cop out line of it's a woman's body and her choice!You can smother,cover,dice & pepper it as much as you want with Bernie sprinkle's,and it still come's down to 2 body's.Seem's the only folk i hear bitchin about banning abortion,are the one's that their mother's chose not to abort their ass.


BrerRabbit - 6/18/2019 at 10:59 PM

quote:
the only folk i hear bitchin about banning abortion,are the one's that their mother's chose not to abort their ass.




Why then it cant be all bad if it stop's folk bitchin about banning abortion since their mother's abort their ass.


LUKE - 6/19/2019 at 01:59 AM

Rabbit Briar, how bout sendzen me a 12 pk of dat morphine sulfate & a slaba dat black tar.I sho would like ta be able to decifer dat line ya just ripped down man.
All BS aside.Hoping ya made it thru them dark cloud's bro.And that hide gig got nipped at the bud.You know what I'm talkin bout when i say hide i know.All the best brother man +++

[Edited on 6/19/2019 by LUKE]


BrerRabbit - 6/19/2019 at 02:39 AM

Best backatcha skywalker. Doing better now thanks.


Jerry - 6/25/2019 at 05:05 PM

quote:
I would never serve in todays military,seeing that approximately half the people you'd be fighting or defending would be republicans and they certainly are not worthy.


So you wouldn't fight to protect Dems?


BrerRabbit - 6/27/2019 at 06:49 PM

Getting weirder by the day - Alabama woman charged with manslaughter when she had a miscarriage after getting shot.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/beta.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/06/27/preg nant-woman-was-shot-stomach-she-was-indicted-her-babys-death/%3foutputType= amp


KCJimmy - 6/28/2019 at 09:56 PM

Crazy story. Sounds like she started a fight with another woman. That woman shot her and they say it was self defense making it the "Mom to be"s fault. I never said Alabama was perfect.


MartinD28 - 6/28/2019 at 10:04 PM

quote:
Getting weirder by the day - Alabama woman charged with manslaughter when she had a miscarriage after getting shot.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/beta.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/06/27/preg nant-woman-was-shot-stomach-she-was-indicted-her-babys-death/%3foutputType= amp



Alabama - where Roy Moore will run for senate again and boost the cause. Is he still banned from shopping malls?

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/06/20/roy-moore-will-run-for-senate-aga in-1374056


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