Thread: Do You Trust William Barr To be fair, just and honest?

crazyjoe - 3/23/2019 at 03:04 PM

Look, I like to mouth off alot, but I really don't know sh!t from Apple Butter, is this Barr a guy to be trusted???............Peace.........joe


PhotoRon286 - 3/23/2019 at 05:02 PM

Hand picked by trump, wrote an unsolicited opinion supporting him.

I don't expect much out of him.

We'll probably hear more when Congress subpoenas Mueller.


MartinD28 - 3/23/2019 at 05:11 PM

In his confirm hearing before Congress, his words were carefully chosen, guarded, and non-committal. I would hope he'd see himself as the AG of the people and not someone who gives loyalty to Trump. How many times have we heard Trump talk about loyalty of gov't workers to him as well as wanting his own Roy Cohn?


crazyjoe - 3/23/2019 at 06:48 PM

Everything Trump seems to come within shouting distance of, seems to become tainted by a certain filth, sleaze and corruption.........Peace.......joe


IF - 3/23/2019 at 07:59 PM

The simple answer...no


sckeys - 3/24/2019 at 03:09 AM

It doesnt matter how much they scrub this report. This was supposed to be about the meeting that occured at the tower being illegal. None of those folks were charged so thats the ballgame. Ive heard people already saying "just because they havent proven crimes dont mean they didnt occur". Good luck selling that one. Trump will feed this to the media till they choke. It looks like he has earned the right to do so.


cyclone88 - 3/24/2019 at 09:09 PM

quote:
Trump will feed this to the media till they choke. It looks like he has earned the right to do so.


He earned it on collusion. Mueller exonerated him on that. No surprise.

Mueller punted on obstruction. For some reason, he reported the instances of obstruction with sort of a pro/con list of facts & law rather than make a decision to indict or not. Barr, in consultation w/Rosenstein, decided prosecution wasn't warranted in any instance. No surprise.

What's odd is Mueller's pro/con list as opposed to indicting or not indicting. Criminal law 101: law is argued by lawyers; facts are decided by juries. By just outlining the laws & facts to Barr, he took away the opportunity for them to be argued in front of juries.

Perhaps once we know what they are, it will make sense.


MartinD28 - 3/24/2019 at 10:33 PM

quote:
quote:
Trump will feed this to the media till they choke. It looks like he has earned the right to do so.


He earned it on collusion. Mueller exonerated him on that. No surprise.

Mueller punted on obstruction. For some reason, he reported the instances of obstruction with sort of a pro/con list of facts & law rather than make a decision to indict or not. Barr, in consultation w/Rosenstein, decided prosecution wasn't warranted in any instance. No surprise.

What's odd is Mueller's pro/con list as opposed to indicting or not indicting. Criminal law 101: law is argued by lawyers; facts are decided by juries. By just outlining the laws & facts to Barr, he took away the opportunity for them to be argued in front of juries.

Perhaps once we know what they are, it will make sense.




I enjoy your legal input, Counselor. There was a time I was going to do law school but ended up on a different path & different course of study.

Time will tell how all this shakes out. I think "the people" need to see as much of Mueller's original document & backup details as possible. There is a preference for that as opposed to Barr's interpretation (layman's term).

The exoneration angle - as I have heard several things today, I am posting the following link:

"Mueller Finds No Trump-Russia Conspiracy but Stops Short of Exonerating President on Obstruction"

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/24/us/politics/mueller-report-summary.html

That seems to once again disagree with Trump's spin. No surprise there.

There are some things that still seem at odds as follows:

Why all the lying for 2 + years by Trump & associates re: Russia?

Why did Trump dictate a false & coverup document for the Trump Tower Meeting with Russians which was not about adoption but instead about dirt on HC?

Why does Trump constantly bend over for Putin & not want to enforce sanctions? Example - see Helsinki.

Why did Manafort share polling data with the Russians?

Why is the timing so near on Trump asking for Hillary's e-mails from Russians and almost immediate hacking of DNC servers & Podesta's account?

This is a start of questions.

Russia is but one angle. There are plenty of other areas of suspect activity by the Trumps, and it is a good thing that some of that has been farmed out for investigation. Trump is not a clean actor nor a statesman.


cyclone88 - 3/24/2019 at 11:22 PM

quote:
I enjoy your legal input, Counselor. There was a time I was going to do law school but ended up on a different path & different course of study.

Time will tell how all this shakes out. I think "the people" need to see as much of Mueller's original document & backup details as possible. There is a preference for that as opposed to Barr's interpretation (layman's term).

The exoneration angle - as I have heard several things today, I am posting the following link:

"Mueller Finds No Trump-Russia Conspiracy but Stops Short of Exonerating President on Obstruction"

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/24/us/politics/mueller-report-summary.html

That seems to once again disagree with Trump's spin. No surprise there.

There are some things that still seem at odds as follows:

Why all the lying for 2 + years by Trump & associates re: Russia?

Why did Trump dictate a false & coverup document for the Trump Tower Meeting with Russians which was not about adoption but instead about dirt on HC?

Why does Trump constantly bend over for Putin & not want to enforce sanctions? Example - see Helsinki.

Why did Manafort share polling data with the Russians?

Why is the timing so near on Trump asking for Hillary's e-mails from Russians and almost immediate hacking of DNC servers & Podesta's account?

This is a start of questions.

Russia is but one angle. There are plenty of other areas of suspect activity by the Trumps, and it is a good thing that some of that has been farmed out for investigation. Trump is not a clean actor nor a statesman.



Don't mean to sound pedantic, sorry. There's another lawyer on here who makes thoughtful comments but seems to have been eaten by trolls. He's never around anymore.

Although the Times article correctly states Mueller's mandate wasn't a straightjacket - an investigation of Russia's interference & anything that may arise from it - Mueller seems to have limited himself. He farmed out the obvious criminal charges arising from it, but the list of the ones he handed over to Barr (Trump's boy) & Rosenstein (who'll be gone soon) will be interesting to see.

There's also grand jury info that Barr is claiming we can't see to preserve the integrity of that system. It can be done w/the cooperation of the Exec. Nixon cooperated, but then, in comparison, Nixon was a statesman.

The takeaway for me is that while Russia interfered, there's no proof that Trump intentionally colluded. That makes him Putin's Useful Idiot, but I don't think he's figured that out yet.

I think all the lying on Trump, Jr, & Kushner's parts was fear of discovery of continued Moscow Tower negotiations after he became president plus his 1st impulse re anything is to lie.

Personally, I think there is at least one sealed indictment in the SDNY v. Trump. In Barr's letter, he quotes Mueller saying there are no sealed indictments by him. That leaves EDVA plus AGs in NY, NJ, ME & FL that we know are investigating Trump. The field's pretty open.







nebish - 3/25/2019 at 12:44 AM

Nobody should just take Barr's summary as gospel. The report needs to be made available in it's entirety to the fullest legal extent possible. Supporting documents behind the report I am not sure about. And Mueller definitely needs to appear before Congress to answer questions and provide further insight on the process and his findings.


BoytonBrother - 3/25/2019 at 02:30 AM

There’s nothing left for his opposition to do except vote him out in 2020. If Democrats can’t inspire enough people to win the election, then he deserves the presidency. However, if conservatives want to align themselves with a classless bully that harasses his own people, then they shouldn’t complain when they get treated as such.


PhotoRon286 - 3/25/2019 at 10:00 PM

quote:
Nobody should just take Barr's summary as gospel. The report needs to be made available in it's entirety to the fullest legal extent possible. Supporting documents behind the report I am not sure about. And Mueller definitely needs to appear before Congress to answer questions and provide further insight on the process and his findings.


Remember barr didn't think Iran/Contra was a shady deal either.


crazyjoe - 4/28/2019 at 08:55 PM

You know who fights testifying in court and who fights/disregards subpoenas??? Criminals and those trying to protect other criminals, that's who.........Peace. ........Joe

Barr Threatens Not to Testify Before House, but Democrats May Subpoena Him

http://flip.it/XW090z


BIGV - 4/28/2019 at 09:06 PM

quote:
You know who fights testifying in court and who fights/disregards subpoenas???


Perhaps any Citizen who believes they are within the Law while applying their Constitutional Right to do so?


sckeys - 4/28/2019 at 11:07 PM

quote:
quote:
You know who fights testifying in court and who fights/disregards subpoenas???


Perhaps any Citizen who believes they are within the Law while applying their Constitutional Right to do so?


That don’t exactly work as well for poor people. Heck, it doesn’t work for average folks in general.


BIGV - 4/29/2019 at 03:45 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
You know who fights testifying in court and who fights/disregards subpoenas???


Perhaps any Citizen who believes they are within the Law while applying their Constitutional Right to do so?


That don’t exactly work as well for poor people. Heck, it doesn’t work for average folks in general.


Not much of an excuse, either you are aware of your rights, or you are not, it's all right there in your Public Library


BIGV - 4/29/2019 at 03:48 AM

quote:
"just because they havent proven crimes dont mean they didnt occur".


Ask Hillary Clinton


nebish - 4/29/2019 at 12:11 PM

Why waste their time with Barr? Mueller is the most important one to testify assuming his appearance will be requested. Why not just cut right to it?


MartinD28 - 4/29/2019 at 01:53 PM

"Do You Trust William Barr To be fair, just and honest?"

Wrote an opinion months before the release of the Mueller Report slanted towards protecting Trump. It turned out to be a great audition for his appointment as AG. He then substituted his personal summary for the summaries already written & provided by Team Mueller. He is a loyalist to Trump; not so much for the American people.

Is he to be trusted? Answer - "Roy" Barr is doing the job he was expected to do for Trump. Trump got his boy that he was looking for. Loyalty is a beautiful thing.


BrerRabbit - 4/29/2019 at 08:16 PM

quote:
Why does Trump constantly bend over for Putin


Deeper penetration


MartinD28 - 4/29/2019 at 11:24 PM

quote:
quote:
Why does Trump constantly bend over for Putin


Deeper penetration


Trump's a good little soldier taking one for the team.

"Trump publicly sides with Putin on election interference"

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/07/16/trump-russia-putin-summit-722418

President Donald Trump on Monday publicly sided with Russian President Vladimir Putin over his own intelligence agencies, refusing to condemn the Kremlin for interference in the 2016 election and saying that “I don’t see any reason” why Russia would have hacked Democratic computer servers.


crazyjoe - 5/1/2019 at 02:49 PM

Well, now that Barr has lied under oath and misled the American People, it's pretty obvious he is just another one one Trump's scumbucket minions, I believe we will see the whole sleazy house cards begin to crumble, quite possibly again leading back to impeachment? .............Peace.........joe


cyclone88 - 5/1/2019 at 03:15 PM

quote:

"Trump publicly sides with Putin on election interference"
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/07/16/trump-russia-putin-summit-722418
President Donald Trump on Monday publicly sided with Russian President Vladimir Putin over his own intelligence agencies, refusing to condemn the Kremlin for interference in the 2016 election and saying that “I don’t see any reason” why Russia would have hacked Democratic computer servers.

And the electorate doesn't seem to care. It will be forgotten by 2020. Hell, it will be forgotten by next week. Trump will remain in office unless a state AG who has no obligation to follow the erroneous internal DOJ memo that posits a sitting prez can't be indicted brings charges. Bumbling Biden or any other dem may as well stay off the campaign trail as the results will likely be similar to Dukakis, McGovern, and the completely humiliation of Mondale.


nebish - 5/1/2019 at 06:31 PM

quote:
Well, now that Barr has lied under oath and misled the American People, it's pretty obvious he is just another one one Trump's scumbucket minions, I believe we will see the whole sleazy house cards begin to crumble, quite possibly again leading back to impeachment? .............Peace.........joe


April 9th at House Judiciary or today? I think perjury would be a difficult conclusion. Clearly however he was not as forthcoming as he could've or should've been if we are taking about how he responded to the question about people expressing opposition to his characterization of Mueller's finding by not revealing Mueller had himself written a letter.

Barr is at the plate to bat for the President no doubt. Whether he actually lied or not sounds in question to me.


playallnite - 5/1/2019 at 09:29 PM

It should be illegal educate people beyond their intelligence.


MartinD28 - 5/2/2019 at 12:22 AM

quote:
quote:
Well, now that Barr has lied under oath and misled the American People, it's pretty obvious he is just another one one Trump's scumbucket minions, I believe we will see the whole sleazy house cards begin to crumble, quite possibly again leading back to impeachment? .............Peace.........joe


April 9th at House Judiciary or today? I think perjury would be a difficult conclusion. Clearly however he was not as forthcoming as he could've or should've been if we are taking about how he responded to the question about people expressing opposition to his characterization of Mueller's finding by not revealing Mueller had himself written a letter.

Barr is at the plate to bat for the President no doubt. Whether he actually lied or not sounds in question to me.


Most of his answers were laced with obfuscation. His actions to date and his words are calculated. Much of his "performance" as a reality TV AG today was an embarassment. I do think he lied at will.

He wanted to dictate terms of his testimony to the HOR tomorrow as he is afraid of the questioning. He now pu$$ey out and will not testify. What is he afraid of...the truth? I hope he's held in contempt although not sure where that will go.


Fretsman - 5/2/2019 at 03:43 PM

It's disheartening to read through these posts. Many lack logic and reason and only a fool argues with fools, but I'll admit I'm tempted.


BrerRabbit - 5/2/2019 at 03:58 PM

Ok, so just hit and run on a thread where for once differing views are posted in a civil fashion and call the folks you disagree with "fools."


Fretsman - 5/2/2019 at 04:05 PM

Can I bow out gracefully and just delete it?


BrerRabbit - 5/2/2019 at 04:34 PM

Lol, nah. Just some Indignian arrows flying by. fffft, ffffft.


Bhawk - 5/2/2019 at 04:51 PM

quote:
Barr is at the plate to bat for the President no doubt.


Death of the independent judiciary to own the libs!


BIGV - 5/2/2019 at 05:04 PM

quote:
quote:
Barr is at the plate to bat for the President no doubt.


Death of the independent judiciary to own the libs!



Bhawk - 5/2/2019 at 05:27 PM

Awwww, look. The resident free-thinking libertarian is perfectly fine with an AG not even reading evidence before reaching a conclusion!

For all the support you've given veterans and their sacrifice over the years, Vince, it's shocking that there's evidence (that the Attorney General of the United States won't even read by his own admission) that Russia interfered with an American election and you don't care...because you hate the left more.

Libertarians now proclaiming Presidents above the law...strange times indeed.


nebish - 5/2/2019 at 05:31 PM

Kamala Harris definitely got the better of Barr yesterday.


Fretsman - 5/2/2019 at 05:55 PM

quote:
Kamala Harris definitely got the better of Barr yesterday.


Where? She looked like an idiot?


Fretsman - 5/2/2019 at 05:56 PM

Alright, Call me a fool. I do this against my better judgement.

We live in odd times. First off I'm an Independent. I'm a 33 year Union guy who was a long term Democrat. I've watched the political poisoning of the party and jumped ship. They don't represent the people or the constitution. They all seem to be better Hollywood actors or politicians. I'd even argue than "Jessie" Smullett and others. I'm sure they've all taken acting lessons. Perhaps from Robert DuhNiro in his platform shoes? Napoleon complex? Gene Simmons would fear heights wearing Lil Bobby's shoes.

Is Nadler's eyebrow a Hollywood prop? I think his belt is too tight above his rib cage and it's making Mayor McCheesy light headed (I know he's a Congressman, I'm going for humor here, I thought of the Mayor Of Munchkin City from the Wizard Of Oz too, both images with Nadlers face had me smiling).

My problem is I can ramble on for days with the thoughts that bounce around my head as I witness this madness. I agree history will judge these participants and some will go down as major biased political buffoons who should never have been in office and benefitted from what state they run in.

There were 230K registered Democrats in the 14th District of NY and AOC upset Crowley when only 1 in 10 voters showed up (28K voted only 11.8%). When massive amounts of no show voters get caught up in living their lives and let our political office holders run on auto pilot what we get are dumb ass representatives running our country. They then can attack a sitting President and state that their constituents want these idiotic actions and policies when it was an incidental achievement that they're now in office. We've lost control of the American narrative. Our Nation is in a downward spiral. It's "disheartening" and "foolish" what is going on. The Democrats now want to change the electoral college. The heartland should now have no say in Presidential elections? with full control going to the likes of California and NY. How long before needles and human waste on Main St is common all over America.

Nadler (Mayor Of Munchkinland) wanted to protect these buffoonish committee leaders like AOC, Rashida Talib, and others. They morons looked like "fools" when they tried to confront Candice Owens. You bet your sweet ass they don't want them going toe to toe against Mr. Barr. Nadler looked like a biased inept bozo when he bumbled that Candice Owens committee interaction.

Robert Mueller was a Democratic tool that couldn't deliver for them. His 18 member Democratic team found nothing worthwhile. They cleared him of collusion. It's laughable how they (and others here) want to focus on the Trump Tower meeting which was to offer dirt on HRC, but became about adoptions and a Democratic ploy in this game of Political "Gotcha".

How can Adam Schiff (for brains) be considered seriously when he was major league duped by some Howard Stern wannebes from some Russian Radio Station, "We have pictures of naked Trump, Ol' dopey Schiff immediately got a semi and will have his people grab them. Isn't that the same thing the Trump Tower meeting was trying to accomplish? but Schiff was broadcast across Russian Radio for the world to hear what F' up's we've elected. HE should resign from the Intelligence Committee as he has none.


The whole Democratic team set up the meetings with Popodopalis and Don Jr. Simpson GPS met before and after we the key players. Things are being ignored because they don't fit the narrative.


Mueller will go down as a coward and political hack. He sold his soul and his reputation for the "greater Democratic" cause. Mr. Barr who just came into office was attacked with no justification. Crazy Mazie Horono is an embarrassment to Hawaii. The trio of Booker, Harris, & Klobachar tried their best on their own little question segments to provide a political ad to help their 3 failing campaigns for President.


Mueller was asked if he wanted to review Mr. Barr's principle conclusions release and he said no. When Mr. Barr put out the 4 page overview. Meuller band of merrymen wrote the "snitty" letter to Mr. Barr stating how they wanted their 16 page overview that could pass on their negative spin for them. Mr. Barr did not bite. He called Mueller and asked "What's the problem Bob?, Do you have issues with my 4 page overview? Is there anything inaccurate?" and his response was "Oh no, No problem with you Bob, We're good, It was that the press isn't saying our narrative". Mr. Barr like a man gave his long time friend a call to discuss any problem. Thankfully he had Rosenstein and a few staff members taking notes to document the call which was on speaker for the room to hear. What did Mueller do (or allow his team to do?), He signed off on a 2nd letter being sent with the expressed purpose of leaking it to the press to still try to push the narrative. He is a coward and a biased political operative. Mr. Barr has told Congress he has no issues with Mueller appearing before them. He should bring his whole 18 member of biased narrative pushers to help him. This was never about justice. This was never about a fair process. If Mueller had put some Republicans or Independents on his special council this wouldn't have the stench that it does. Trump was right to be concerned with conflicts of interest and isn't that obvious? or is that obvious to only those who want to step back and be impartial. It is a National Embarrassmet to have these so called Representatives of the people to "Misrepresent" the people and our constitution. Our Forefathers could never have seen this coming or perhaps they did and gave it's citizens to bear arms in order to rise up against these idiots. Perhaps they were wiser than we knew?


The Democrats need to let their chosen representatives question Mr. Barr and expose themselves. The American Voters did not elect their staff to take pot shots at the AG. They should ask anything they want and prove any point they want and when they fail they should suffer the consequences in the ballot box, but most likely the "glasses of water" next to the D on the election tickets will still be in power because the flawed narratives are what's being pushed. Pushed Hollywood, the media, and the sheople who bought in. They have brought my life's choices to a better place, I avoid them and their idiocy. It gives me more time to coexist with my guitars and music. A silver lining on every cloud.

I'm personally embarrassed by a Nation that voted in Maxine Waters, Adam Schiff, Jerry Nadler, Omar Ilhan, Rashida Talib, AOC, and a whole cast of clowns. They're the living arguments against Democracy.


BIGV - 5/2/2019 at 05:57 PM

quote:
because you hate the left more.


Hate is a pretty strong word, but yes I believe the left is lost....


Fretsman - 5/2/2019 at 06:01 PM

You are not alone Sir.

We need term limits. It's never been more evident.


nebish - 5/2/2019 at 06:17 PM

quote:
quote:
Kamala Harris definitely got the better of Barr yesterday.


Where? She looked like an idiot?


She had Barr reeling. Probably more than anyone else, I thought her line of questioning showed Barr isn't much more than a mouthpiece for the President and was predisposed to a finding of no obstruction before the report had been delivered. Like Bhawk said, Barr admitted he didn't read any of the evidence. That is rather shocking don't you think? All this talk about lying under oath, that was a pretty big truth that is more damning than any of the supposed lies I think.


Bhawk - 5/2/2019 at 06:30 PM

quote:
I'm personally embarrassed by a Nation that voted in Maxine Waters, Adam Schiff, Jerry Nadler, Omar Ilhan, Rashida Talib, AOC, and a whole cast of clowns. They're the living arguments against Democracy.


I'm personally embarrassed by every Republican in America that supports Trump. So there you go.

quote:
They have brought my life's choices to a better place, I avoid them and their idiocy. It gives me more time to coexist with my guitars and music. A silver lining on every cloud.


I've tried very hard to get every conservative out of my life that I can for two years. It's been amazing.


crazyjoe - 5/2/2019 at 06:34 PM

quote:
quote:
I'm personally embarrassed by a Nation that voted in Maxine Waters, Adam Schiff, Jerry Nadler, Omar Ilhan, Rashida Talib, AOC, and a whole cast of clowns. They're the living arguments against Democracy.


I'm personally embarrassed by every Republican in America that supports Trump. So there you go.


Well I hate to say it Bhawk, I know the feeling, I care about some of these Folks, they seem wacked!!!............Peace........joe


Fretsman - 5/2/2019 at 06:54 PM

He read enough. The Mueller team of all Democrats had one mission. To take down Trump. $25+ Million dollars later with all the subpoenas, and all the man hours, with the full threat of the law which was bent and twisted for the stated purpose of taking down Trump they failed. It was a hoax.

You know these Democratic operatives on this mission were in touch with the party power's that be and tried to maximize the minimal outcome. They came up with new ways to twist the empty outcome. "We couldn't prove anything, but we couldn't EXONERATE??????" Heh? Once Barr read "we don't have the goods to indict" he applied "The Law" and read what the Mueller report actually said. Mr. Trump did not collude, Mr. Trump did not obstruct justice. If anything the "special" council proved it was an Injustice.

Past irrelevant crimes by Cohen and Manafort allowed lawyer/client privileges to be revoked. Those "fruits of the poisonous tree" items were passed on to SDNY and other biased State Gov's to follow up. Good God where is the outrage?

The "special" council tried their damdest but came up empty. Period.

Mr. Barr didn't read the "comeyesque" 16 page waste of taxpayer dollars that was their last ditch best effort "narrative" to prolong the buffoonery. He did include it fully in the public report. Period.


Mr Barr said he'd supply everything he could and he did. He should be commended for his transparency. Period.

Mr. Barr was asked if he knew what Mueller's issues were He said he didn't as Mueller himself said he didn't any yet a "snitty" letter by his Biased Band Of Bozo's sent a letter in his name. He stated he did not.

What is happening now is appalling. They dishonor us all as Americans.





[Edited on 5/2/2019 by Fretsman]


Fretsman - 5/2/2019 at 06:56 PM

Sometimes IQ's can be gauged in 180 characters or less.


Fretsman - 5/2/2019 at 06:57 PM

and yes I have proven my own point..... I am a Fool.






!

[Edited on 5/2/2019 by Fretsman]


Bhawk - 5/2/2019 at 07:07 PM

quote:
Sometimes IQ's can be gauged in 180 characters or less.




Given the amount that Trump tweets every day while he’s watching Fox, that’s a pretty telling statement.

Every single person who has ever held any office is open to criticism. Trump, not so?

Even if Trump had zero to do with it, even if he never met one Russian in his life, the Russians interfered in the last election. Half the country doesn’t care. Sad!


Fretsman - 5/2/2019 at 07:11 PM

quote:

Don't mean to sound pedantic, sorry. There's another lawyer on here who makes thoughtful comments but seems to have been eaten by trolls. He's never around anymore.


There's a few who have made that choice.


Fretsman - 5/2/2019 at 07:25 PM

quote:
quote:
Sometimes IQ's can be gauged in 180 characters or less.




Given the amount that Trump tweets every day while he’s watching Fox, that’s a pretty telling statement.

Every single person who has ever held any office is open to criticism. Trump, not so?

Even if Trump had zero to do with it, even if he never met one Russian in his life, the Russians interfered in the last election. Half the country doesn’t care. Sad!


Is this deemed "fair criticism? Far from it. Is this a solution? It is not.

Trump has given us all reason to criticize him. He will not be canonized for Sainthood, but if the Dem's get their way he will be cannonized. I feel he is the best option to do what's needed. Smart people would give him his 6 years to make our trade deals fair and our standing in the world safe.

Russia and Cuba are propping up Maduro on our continent. They would love to get a military base on common soil. They want socialism and are looking to protect their own control of their own people. Trump is trying to balance options and needs the country's support.

We fail ourselves when we fail our elected President no matter if they dress in blue ties or red.

We're all Americans aren't we?

The administration is doing what the last administration did not, Independently speaking.


BoytonBrother - 5/2/2019 at 07:29 PM

quote:
We've lost control of the American narrative. Our Nation is in a downward spiral. It's "disheartening" and "foolish" what is going on.


So he’s NOT making America great again? If you feel this way under Trump, then your future looks grim.

quote:
The Mueller team of all Democrats had one mission. To take down Trump. $25+ Million dollars later with all the subpoenas, and all the man hours, with the full threat of the law which was bent and twisted for the stated purpose of taking down Trump they failed.


His mission was to conduct an investigation, not “bring Trump down”. You are only revealing an emotional meltdown and a complete lack of understanding about what the special counsel’s purpose was.

quote:
Mueller will go down as a coward and political hack. He sold his soul and his reputation for the "greater Democratic" cause.


You are disparaging a decorated war hero (and a Republican) who has committed his life to serving us, all because you don’t like Democratic values. This is far from normal.

quote:
and yes I have proven my own point..... I am a Fool.


I’m surprised whenever grown men still play the scapegoat game. It’s the height of laziness when one’s only point is “I don’t like that party and I blame them.” Maybe that’s why you feel foolish about the rant?


BIGV - 5/2/2019 at 07:34 PM

quote:
quote:
I'm personally embarrassed by a Nation that voted in Maxine Waters, Adam Schiff, Jerry Nadler, Omar Ilhan, Rashida Talib, AOC, and a whole cast of clowns. They're the living arguments against Democracy.


I'm personally embarrassed by every Republican in America that supports Trump. So there you go.


Seems to be the Liberal/Leftist/Democratic mantra, no matter what the hatred of the President "trumps" all else.

Pretty sad and if the left hopes to gain the WH in 2020 there better be more to your platform than embarrassment.


BoytonBrother - 5/2/2019 at 08:00 PM

Some people were unhappy with Obama in office, and now they are still unhappy with Trump in office. Maybe they are just unhappy no matter what, and they use “Dems” as their scapegoat because it’s easier than examining why everything bothers them.


Bhawk - 5/2/2019 at 08:15 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
I'm personally embarrassed by a Nation that voted in Maxine Waters, Adam Schiff, Jerry Nadler, Omar Ilhan, Rashida Talib, AOC, and a whole cast of clowns. They're the living arguments against Democracy.


I'm personally embarrassed by every Republican in America that supports Trump. So there you go.


Seems to be the Liberal/Leftist/Democratic mantra, no matter what the hatred of the President "trumps" all else.

Pretty sad and if the left hopes to gain the WH in 2020 there better be more to your platform than embarrassment.


How is it any different than your own rationalizations re:your own hatred of the left? That trumps all else for you, no?

Come 2020, I’ll vote for anyone except Trump. You can certainly look forward to canceling my vote out.


BoytonBrother - 5/2/2019 at 08:21 PM

quote:
How is it any different than your own rationalizations re:your own hatred of the left?


It’s not any different at all. He just lacks self-awareness and needs a scapegoat.


Fretsman - 5/2/2019 at 08:23 PM

I reiterate.... Only a fool argues with fools. Sometimes scrabble tiles dropped on the floor make more sense than people do. People see what they want to see no matter what they see. A perceived false reality suites some folks. I'll not waddle in this stupidity again. You can lead a horse to common sense, but you can't make them think it.



!


[Edited on 5/2/2019 by Fretsman]


porkchopbob - 5/2/2019 at 08:27 PM

quote:
Seems to be the Liberal/Leftist/Democratic mantra, no matter what the hatred of the President "trumps" all else.

Pretty sad and if the left hopes to gain the WH in 2020 there better be more to your platform than embarrassment.


Considering the literal mantra for the 2016 Republican Convention was "anyone but her", and it actually worked, you either have a short memory or are being pretty hypocritical. And considering there are Republicans out there who have denounced or questioned Trump's actions and behavior, it's not just a "mantra" these days.


playallnite - 5/2/2019 at 09:06 PM

If the dishonorable mr. barr were trapped in a fully involved burning vehicle, I would not cross the street to urinate on him.


BrerRabbit - 5/2/2019 at 09:10 PM

Hahaha! That was harsh. Moral of story: Don't light your farts if you are pickled in Stolichnaya.



[Edited on 5/2/2019 by BrerRabbit]


BoytonBrother - 5/2/2019 at 09:18 PM

quote:
People see what they want to see no matter what they see. A perceived false reality suites some folks. I'll not waddle in this stupidity again. You can lead a horse to common sense, but you can't make them think it.


You trashed a former marine and decorated American war hero - that’s what we see from you. Why would you do that? And what makes you think you know better than he does?


BoytonBrother - 5/2/2019 at 09:21 PM

quote:
you either have a short memory or are being pretty hypocritical. And considering there are Republicans out there who have denounced or questioned Trump's actions and behavior, it's not just a "mantra" these days.


Exactly. Well said.


BrerRabbit - 5/2/2019 at 09:26 PM

Doubling down on the bluff - ruckin fussians.


alloak41 - 5/2/2019 at 09:34 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Barr is at the plate to bat for the President no doubt.


Death of the independent judiciary to own the libs!





And worse, going after citizens who might go cast a vote. Going after the candidate is one thing, but voters? Probably not the smoothest pathway to victory.


Bhawk - 5/2/2019 at 10:09 PM

quote:
We fail ourselves when we fail our elected President no matter if they dress in blue ties or red.


Presidents are not infallible and do not deserve blind loyalty.

quote:
We're all Americans aren't we?


I've been told I hate my country for twenty years now by guys like you. You apparently don't think so.

quote:
I reiterate.... Only a fool argues with fools. Sometimes scrabble tiles dropped on the floor make more sense than people do. People see what they want to see no matter what they see. A perceived false reality suites some folks. I'll not waddle in this stupidity again. You can lead a horse to common sense, but you can't make them think it.


Congrats on having all the answers for all us fools!


BrerRabbit - 5/2/2019 at 10:34 PM

“The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.” - William Shakespeare

Running like the wind and laugh at the crowd, the fool and me
Howl at the moon yeah out loud loud, the fool and me

And oh oh where ever we go
We keep the spirit free
Oh nobody knows
No one but the fool and me


Dewar/Trower

btw, the word "wallow" might work better than "waddle" in "I'll not waddle in this stupidity again."

[Edited on 5/2/2019 by BrerRabbit]


BIGV - 5/2/2019 at 10:54 PM

quote:
How is it any different than your own rationalizations re:your own hatred of the left? That trumps all else for you, no?


No different at all, you hate Trump and I despise almost everything the Left stands for. That being said, I will sleep just great this evening.


BIGV - 5/2/2019 at 11:01 PM

quote:
quote:
Seems to be the Liberal/Leftist/Democratic mantra, no matter what the hatred of the President "trumps" all else.

Pretty sad and if the left hopes to gain the WH in 2020 there better be more to your platform than embarrassment.


Considering the literal mantra for the 2016 Republican Convention was "anyone but her", and it actually worked, you either have a short memory or are being pretty hypocritical.


Actually in 2016 Trump campaigned on a number of things that had nothing to do with Hillary, withdrawing from NAFTA, Tariffs on China, Illegal immigration and the return of manufacturing jobs to the USA. You can't blame the other side because your Candidate took Victory for granted.

What is on the Democratic Platform now beside hatred for the President?


porkchopbob - 5/2/2019 at 11:39 PM

quote:
Actually in 2016 Trump campaigned on a number of things that had nothing to do with Hillary, withdrawing from NAFTA, Tariffs on China, Illegal immigration and the return of manufacturing jobs to the USA. You can't blame the other side because your Candidate took Victory for granted.


Blah blah blah Just because I didn't mention Trump's entire campaign platform and other factors doesn't negate that fact that the GOP stoked hatred of the opposing candidate, even as a literal mantra (see Scott Walker's speech) through out the convention, and Trump won. That's a fact. I did not say it was the only factor, just as Democrats have already discussed policy other than Trump. So, again, what you said doesn't hold any water.


BIGV - 5/2/2019 at 11:46 PM

quote:
just as Democrats have already discussed policy other than Trump.


For example?


nebish - 5/3/2019 at 12:03 AM

quote:
quote: just as Democrats have already discussed policy other than Trump.



For example?


To interject, some kind of health care reform or different options really need offered by either party. The Republicans have had 2+ years now and can't come up with anything and don't seem likely to do so anytime soon. The Democrats have their ideas. No matter if you or I agree with them all, but that issue or policy would be the most glaring from my view that would have good appeal across party lines.


nebish - 5/3/2019 at 12:09 AM

And really to be fair, with that illustration, I do not know how seriously the Republicans can be taken on infrastructure being part of their platform. Their proposal from the 2018 budget was not a serious effort. If the meeting between Trump and Democrat leaders this week means anything, I'd say the issue could certainly be put in both party platforms, and not solely the Republican side. If one party were to actually be more likely to move the issue forward in a real way I would say that would be the Democrats. Maybe something bipartisan can happen (doubt it)...otherwise we will have to wait until the Democrats control atleast 2 of the 3 branches before something happens.


Bhawk - 5/3/2019 at 12:39 AM

quote:
quote:
How is it any different than your own rationalizations re:your own hatred of the left? That trumps all else for you, no?


No different at all, you hate Trump and I despise almost everything the Left stands for. That being said, I will sleep just great this evening.


Hey, at least you acknowledge it. We all gotta be who we gotta be.


Bhawk - 5/3/2019 at 12:41 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Seems to be the Liberal/Leftist/Democratic mantra, no matter what the hatred of the President "trumps" all else.

Pretty sad and if the left hopes to gain the WH in 2020 there better be more to your platform than embarrassment.


Considering the literal mantra for the 2016 Republican Convention was "anyone but her", and it actually worked, you either have a short memory or are being pretty hypocritical.


Actually in 2016 Trump campaigned on a number of things that had nothing to do with Hillary, withdrawing from NAFTA, Tariffs on China, Illegal immigration and the return of manufacturing jobs to the USA. You can't blame the other side because your Candidate took Victory for granted.

What is on the Democratic Platform now beside hatred for the President?


Well, if you put it in that context, it looks similar to the governance of the Boehner-Ryan-McConnell Congress for eight years.


Bhawk - 5/3/2019 at 12:44 AM

quote:
And really to be fair, with that illustration, I do not know how seriously the Republicans can be taken on infrastructure being part of their platform. Their proposal from the 2018 budget was not a serious effort. If the meeting between Trump and Democrat leaders this week means anything, I'd say the issue could certainly be put in both party platforms, and not solely the Republican side. If one party were to actually be more likely to move the issue forward in a real way I would say that would be the Democrats. Maybe something bipartisan can happen (doubt it)...otherwise we will have to wait until the Democrats control atleast 2 of the 3 branches before something happens.


The refusal to address the infrastructure baffles me. The business and job growth potential is insane, and the safety of the public is strengthened. Baffling.


BrerRabbit - 5/3/2019 at 12:50 AM

Republicans are not likely to follow through on infrastructure. The fact that socialism is a dirty word aside, massive public works are an essentially socialist phenomenon. Democrats certainly have historically shown socialistic tendencies on this front. The New Deal was the largest public works push in history:

from that left wing corrupt liberal rag Smithsonian, 2014:

“This spring marks the 80th anniversary of the Works Progress Administration (WPA), the biggest and most ambitious of more than a dozen New Deal agencies created by President Franklin D. Roosevelt. Designed to give millions of unemployed Americans jobs during the Great Depression, the WPA remains the largest public works program in the nation's history. It provided 8 million jobs in communities large and small. And what those workers put up has never been matched.

The WPA built, improved or renovated 39,370 schools; 2,550 hospitals; 1,074 libraries; 2,700 firehouses; 15,100 auditoriums, gymnasiums and recreational buildings; 1,050 airports, 500 water treatment plants, 12,800 playgrounds, 900 swimming pools; 1,200 skating rinks, plus many other structures. It also dug more than 1,000 tunnels; surfaced 639,000 miles of roads and installed nearly 1 million miles of sidewalks, curbs and street lighting, in addition to tens of thousands of viaducts, culverts and roadside drainage ditches.

A vast amount of our physical and cultural infrastructure went up between 1933 and 1940," said Robert Leighninger, author of Long-range Public Investment: The Forgotten Legacy of the New Deal. "To paraphrase Winston Churchill, never in our history has so much been built for so many in so little time and been so thoroughly forgotten."







nebish - 5/3/2019 at 01:09 AM

Whether it is a higher gas tax, or user fees, or whatever, I do think there needs to be some real payback in the investment for some of it. And the other gets paid back in other ways, not measurable like we might like, but with increased productivity and boost to the overall economy.

It needs to get done.

I incorrectly said if Democrats get 2 of 3 branches, obviously I meant 2 of 3 houses. I do think that if Trump could get a spine and do something that is unpopular with his party in Congress, if the Democrats controlled the House and the Senate and if Trump somehow were to still be in the White House at that point I think he would sign a Democrat written and mostly party-line passed infrastructure bill even at the protest of his own party.

Infrastructure is in the Democrats wheelhouse. Trump says he wants to do it (and I think he probably does), Republicans might say they want to do it (they actually don't unless it is all or pretty much all private projects), but the Democrats both want to do it and are ready willing and waiting to do it. Definitely would have to be part of their platform.

Regarding the WPA, extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures. They certainly did some amazing things and it hard to argue that our country wasn't better off for it.


BIGV - 5/3/2019 at 01:16 AM

quote:
The fact that socialism is a dirty word


Indeed


BoytonBrother - 5/3/2019 at 01:31 AM

quote:
No different at all, you hate Trump and I despise almost everything the Left stands for.


One directs his ire at a belligerent bully for his unprofessional and dirty behavior. The other admits to “despising” half the country’s entire set of values (after claiming hate was a strong word earlier in the day).

Character has spoken. It’s obvious which one is the better and stronger person. Enjoy the gutter.


BrerRabbit - 5/3/2019 at 02:09 AM

quote:
quote:
The fact that socialism is a dirty word

quote:
Indeed


There it is. Well call it something else if it makes you feel better about your public schooling, your freeway system, your cleaner air, water, social security (wow, that one even has "social" right there up front! We should just call it Kommie Kash) and all the other socialistic aspects of the USA you have benefitted from.

Nebish, I agree that Trump could outflank the Repubs on infrastructure. What needs to be done is so sweeping and massive in scale whoever pushes hard for it will take a lot of heat, given the national sacrifice it will entail. It might take a populist radical like Trump to damn the torpedoes and make it happen. He wants to leave a legacy, the Wall, he is a builder - screw the politics, infrastucture could be just the thing to keep him busy and out of trouble. He might be just the sort of person to bring it about. Rename a bunch of freeways and bridges after him once they are all fixed up, he will love that and pull out all the stops to get that recognition. Which he will deserve.


BIGV - 5/3/2019 at 03:07 AM

quote:
socialistic aspects


Call it what you will; far from Socialism


porkchopbob - 5/3/2019 at 02:02 PM

quote:
quote:
just as Democrats have already discussed policy other than Trump.

For example?

Do you choose to not look these things up? There's a big world out there if you choose to be curious rather than obtuse.

https://berniesanders.com/issues/
https://elizabethwarren.com/issues/
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/what-does-pete-buttigieg-believe-wher e-the-candidate-stands-on-7-issues
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/what-does-kamala-harris-believe-where -the-candidate-stands-on-9-issues
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/what-does-kirsten-gillibrand-believe- where-the-candidate-stands-on-11-issues


BrerRabbit - 5/3/2019 at 02:06 PM

quote:
Call it what you will; far from Socialism


Certainly not "Socialism," as a political system - no argument there.

Try "Corporate Socialism." The USA fits that description.


BIGV - 5/3/2019 at 02:17 PM

quote:
quote:
Call it what you will; far from Socialism


Certainly not "Socialism," as a political system - no argument there.

Try "Corporate Socialism." The USA fits that description.



No thanks, I'll stick with "Democracy"....


nebish - 5/3/2019 at 02:33 PM

It's corpocracy really. In some ways that is good and has been beneficial to our country and in other ways it hasn't and has gone too far with corporate control of our government. If we were to debate democracy vs socialism, I think we would find there are redeeming qualities on both sides of those systems, but neither is especially good when taken too far unchecked. As it is with any political position or debate, how far should any ideal swing one way or the other and where is the balance?

If we get back to Barr and lying, there may be other instances (or in the minds of some, many instances) where he potentially has lied under oath - I think this is the one that strikes closest to me although I personally still think it falls short of perjury. I can see the argument though and admit that my opinion may not in fact be legally correct.

April 9th Charlie Crist full Q & A (5-1/2 minutes):
https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4795192/charlie-crist-questions-ag-barr-apri l-9-2019

Barr's assertion is that he did not know the objections or concerns of Mueller's "team". This is all in light of Mueller's letter, which Barr had received and he had spoken to Bob Mueller personally prior to April 9th hearing before the House...so one could say that Barr was aware of the objections. Barr says this week, he knows of Mueller's objections, but not that of his "team". Technically that wouldn't be a lie. But, well isn't Mueller a member of his own team? And then Barr says he thinks that a staffer wrote the letter (probably incorrect). Would that staffer not be a member of the "team" too? As I already did say though, definitely Barr was not as forthcoming and truthful as he should've been. Did he lie? Maybe I should just defer judgement.


nebish - 5/3/2019 at 02:41 PM

Weighing in on other related opinions, I think Barr should have to appear before committees he is requested to testify for. If that has to take the form of a subpoena so be it. If he can be held in contempt for not appearing, so be it. As head of a government agency he has a responsibility to Congress to make himself available. As for Don Mcgahn, I think executive privilege could be used and would be valid, although it is a bad look. I personally would like to see Mcgahn testify, but also think the President can exercise privilege in that case. Did Mcgahn lie to Mueller or was the truthful? Were his words and the situation misrepresented by Mueller, or did the President in fact tell him to fire Mueller or what were the exact details of that situation? Really, I still feel the same way, getting Barr or getting Mcgahn doesn't mean much - Mueller's testimony is the be all end all. The sooner it can happen the better.


BrerRabbit - 5/3/2019 at 02:50 PM

Re Corporate Socialism: big bank bailouts. Nuf said.

Back to thread, sorry: As I mentioned before, and got a good explanation for, it still strikes me as off balance, that a massive team effort supported by millions of taxpayers should bottleneck at one individual. How democratic is that?


sckeys - 5/3/2019 at 06:17 PM

I can’t be the only liberal who thinks that chicken stunt was about the one dumbest way they could have dealt with this. High school kids do that for pep rallies. It’s starting to get into the “can this get any dang worse” territory.


BIGV - 5/3/2019 at 06:28 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
just as Democrats have already discussed policy other than Trump.

For example?

Do you choose to not look these things up? There's a big world out there if you choose to be curious rather than obtuse.

https://berniesanders.com/issues/
https://elizabethwarren.com/issues/
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/what-does-pete-buttigieg-believe-wher e-the-candidate-stands-on-7-issues
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/what-does-kamala-harris-believe-where -the-candidate-stands-on-9-issues
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/what-does-kirsten-gillibrand-believe- where-the-candidate-stands-on-11-issues


Forgive me for not being more clear in my request. I was curious as to what was in the Democratic Platform that made YOU think "Hey, that appeals to me"...Not, what individual Candidates think.

Have a great day


BrerRabbit - 5/3/2019 at 06:41 PM

quote:
chicken stunt


Missed that one, sounds mighty lame.


porkchopbob - 5/3/2019 at 08:42 PM

quote:
Forgive me for not being more clear in my request. I was curious as to what was in the Democratic Platform that made YOU think "Hey, that appeals to me"...Not, what individual Candidates think.

Ha, ok, yeah that's not what you said at all, but you're forgiven for your ret-con if you like.


2112 - 5/3/2019 at 09:52 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Call it what you will; far from Socialism


Certainly not "Socialism," as a political system - no argument there.

Try "Corporate Socialism." The USA fits that description.



No thanks, I'll stick with "Democracy"....


You say that here, but if we had Democracy Hillary would be president right now.


MartinD28 - 5/3/2019 at 11:01 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Call it what you will; far from Socialism


Certainly not "Socialism," as a political system - no argument there.

Try "Corporate Socialism." The USA fits that description.



No thanks, I'll stick with "Democracy"....


You say that here, but if we had Democracy Hillary would be president right now.


True dat, but what's wrong with a dictatorship where a president dismisses the Constitution and leaders within the gov't are protectors of the dictator out of fear of the dictator primarying them via tweet?


BIGV - 5/4/2019 at 12:22 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Call it what you will; far from Socialism


Certainly not "Socialism," as a political system - no argument there.

Try "Corporate Socialism." The USA fits that description.



No thanks, I'll stick with "Democracy"....


You say that here, but if we had Democracy Hillary would be president right now.


OMG. More whining? lol. For only the 5th time in the History of this Republic the EC performed its function as defined by our Forefathers....


BrerRabbit - 5/4/2019 at 12:34 AM


2112 - 5/4/2019 at 02:37 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Call it what you will; far from Socialism


Certainly not "Socialism," as a political system - no argument there.

Try "Corporate Socialism." The USA fits that description.



No thanks, I'll stick with "Democracy"....


You say that here, but if we had Democracy Hillary would be president right now.


OMG. More whining? lol. For only the 5th time in the History of this Republic the EC performed its function as defined by our Forefathers....


What you really meant to say is you'll stick with Democracy, as long as we can we can minimize the votes from populous states who don't vote the way I like.


BIGV - 5/4/2019 at 03:42 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Call it what you will; far from Socialism


Certainly not "Socialism," as a political system - no argument there.

Try "Corporate Socialism." The USA fits that description.



No thanks, I'll stick with "Democracy"....


You say that here, but if we had Democracy Hillary would be president right now.


OMG. More whining? lol. For only the 5th time in the History of this Republic the EC performed its function as defined by our Forefathers....


What you really meant to say is you'll stick with Democracy, as long as we can we can minimize the votes from populous states who don't vote the way I like.


See it, say it anyway you please. I think the system works just the way it was intended to function.....


BrerRabbit - 5/4/2019 at 04:08 AM

Reposting this classic, "the loser one!" hahaha even though Obama took both popular and electoral in 2008 and 2012. Duh!


Bhawk - 5/4/2019 at 01:19 PM

The Forefathers totally would have been down with a foreign country interfering with a Presidential election. Like, duh.


alloak41 - 5/6/2019 at 01:55 AM

Interference in foreign elections? No country even comes close to the USA in that regard and nobody ever seemed concerned. We patented the process, and had Clinton won they still wouldn't be concerned...

NOW everybody is supposed to care. Why now all of the sudden?

Perhaps the Russians made yet another miscalculation. They're pretty good at that. A weaker USA under Trump? Guess again, Yortug. There's some really nice prizes in the consolation round though, and thanks for playing!
















[Edited on 5/6/2019 by alloak41]


2112 - 5/6/2019 at 05:14 PM

quote:
Interference in foreign elections? No country even comes close to the USA in that regard and nobody ever seemed concerned. We patented the process, and had Clinton won they still wouldn't be concerned...

NOW everybody is supposed to care. Why now all of the sudden?

Perhaps the Russians made yet another miscalculation. They're pretty good at that. A weaker USA under Trump? Guess again, Yortug. There's some really nice prizes in the consolation round though, and thanks for playing!

[Edited on 5/6/2019 by alloak41]


You are right, the USA has been guilty of meddling in other countries elections. The funny thing is that in most of those cases, the people of those countries were pissed when they found out.

And the USA is weak now that a wedge has been placed between the USA and our European allies. That is exactly what Putin wanted. NATO has been weakened as a direct result of Trump, and that is Putin's wet dream. Not sure how much Putin spent to meddle in the election, but it has paid off beyond his wildest dreams.


BIGV - 5/6/2019 at 05:33 PM

quote:
And the USA is weak now that a wedge has been placed between the USA and our European allies.


Any "wedge" is there because some of these countries are not used to the USA standing up saying "Enough is enough" you will contribute equally just like everyone else.....


BrerRabbit - 5/6/2019 at 06:23 PM

quote:
You are right, the USA has been guilty of meddling in other countries elections


I agree, this is a solid point - gotta say "meddlng" is a huge understatement. Corporate strongarming, CIA backing military coups, engaging in dark ops, assassinations, all out invasions, undeclared warfare . . . there has to be a more appropriate term than "meddling."

[Edited on 5/6/2019 by BrerRabbit]


2112 - 5/6/2019 at 10:30 PM

quote:
quote:
And the USA is weak now that a wedge has been placed between the USA and our European allies.


Any "wedge" is there because some of these countries are not used to the USA standing up saying "Enough is enough" you will contribute equally just like everyone else.....


Yeah, that's it. I'm sure it has nothing to do with being rude to our allies at every opportunity and never criticising Putin no matter what he does. Reagan must be rolling in his grave seeing an American president worshiping a Russian dictator like Putin. I never thought I would see the day that Republicans especially would be ok with this.


nebish - 5/7/2019 at 04:30 AM

quote:
Not sure how much Putin spent to meddle in the election, but it has paid off beyond his wildest dreams.


What have they done to capitalize on it? Paid off...in the sense they are getting something out of it so now they can do something or act in some way that they haven't before. What has that been, or are they just bidding their time? Where is their ROI?


alanwoods - 5/7/2019 at 01:20 PM

quote:
I never thought I would see the day that Republicans especially would be ok with this.


quote:
You are right, the USA has been guilty of meddling in other countries elections.


quote:
quote:
Not sure how much Putin spent to meddle in the election, but it has paid off beyond his wildest dreams.


What have they done to capitalize on it? Paid off...in the sense they are getting something out of it so now they can do something or act in some way that they haven't before. What has that been, or are they just bidding their time? Where is their ROI?


Valid questions, Neb.

I have never seen so much angst directed at one individual. He sure brings it on himself, but anything Trump elicits a reaction that far eclipses anything directed at Bush 43 or even Obama.

Again I ask - just how was this election thrown in the favor of Trump? I have voted predominately Republican since I was 18, and I didn't vote for this clown.








nebish - 5/7/2019 at 02:01 PM

quote:
quote:I never thought I would see the day that Republicans especially would be ok with this.



quote:You are right, the USA has been guilty of meddling in other countries elections.



quote:

quote: Not sure how much Putin spent to meddle in the election, but it has paid off beyond his wildest dreams.



What have they done to capitalize on it? Paid off...in the sense they are getting something out of it so now they can do something or act in some way that they haven't before. What has that been, or are they just bidding their time? Where is their ROI?



Valid questions, Neb.

I have never seen so much angst directed at one individual. He sure brings it on himself, but anything Trump elicits a reaction that far eclipses anything directed at Bush 43 or even Obama.

Again I ask - just how was this election thrown in the favor of Trump? I have voted predominately Republican since I was 18, and I didn't vote for this clown.


The biggest thing is the fact that Bernie supporters were so turned off by the information that was leaked about the DNC is that they didn't support Clinton. I do not think anyone has tried to equate that to a number of votes that were potentially lost, but that is the angle...people that might've otherwise supported the Democrat nominee were influenced by the Russian campaign into not doing so.

It very well could've played some role in the outcome, but I think that most fair thinking people would acknowledge there are and were a host of issues that contributed to the results of 2016. Russian interference gets all the attentions, because, well, it is rather a big deal, but that does lose focus on the other causes of why we are where we are.

The questions about what actually Russia is getting, I mean I hear and believe people when they say "Russians have weakened US-NATO alliances", "Russians have further driven a wedge in our society's political differences" (as if it wasn't bad enough already) - those things are true, I just wonder ultimately from their point of view what does that lead to? Flexing more muscle abroad in other geo-political matters? And so what if they do really? More invasions of former Soviet countries? Must an engaged US be the only deterrent to their bad behavior, what role must the rest of the world play in corralling them? Trump has 2 more years in office (if he goes full term), so just when are they going to get their great "pay off" and what does it really mean for them when we will have another President in 2021?


2112 - 5/7/2019 at 04:35 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:I never thought I would see the day that Republicans especially would be ok with this.



quote:You are right, the USA has been guilty of meddling in other countries elections.



quote:

quote: Not sure how much Putin spent to meddle in the election, but it has paid off beyond his wildest dreams.



What have they done to capitalize on it? Paid off...in the sense they are getting something out of it so now they can do something or act in some way that they haven't before. What has that been, or are they just bidding their time? Where is their ROI?



Valid questions, Neb.

I have never seen so much angst directed at one individual. He sure brings it on himself, but anything Trump elicits a reaction that far eclipses anything directed at Bush 43 or even Obama.

Again I ask - just how was this election thrown in the favor of Trump? I have voted predominately Republican since I was 18, and I didn't vote for this clown.


The biggest thing is the fact that Bernie supporters were so turned off by the information that was leaked about the DNC is that they didn't support Clinton. I do not think anyone has tried to equate that to a number of votes that were potentially lost, but that is the angle...people that might've otherwise supported the Democrat nominee were influenced by the Russian campaign into not doing so.

It very well could've played some role in the outcome, but I think that most fair thinking people would acknowledge there are and were a host of issues that contributed to the results of 2016. Russian interference gets all the attentions, because, well, it is rather a big deal, but that does lose focus on the other causes of why we are where we are.

The questions about what actually Russia is getting, I mean I hear and believe people when they say "Russians have weakened US-NATO alliances", "Russians have further driven a wedge in our society's political differences" (as if it wasn't bad enough already) - those things are true, I just wonder ultimately from their point of view what does that lead to? Flexing more muscle abroad in other geo-political matters? And so what if they do really? More invasions of former Soviet countries? Must an engaged US be the only deterrent to their bad behavior, what role must the rest of the world play in corralling them? Trump has 2 more years in office (if he goes full term), so just when are they going to get their great "pay off" and what does it really mean for them when we will have another President in 2021?


Let's start with the bipartisan sanctions imposed by congress that Trump never put into effect, add sharing intelligence Israeli intelligence with Russia when they asked him not to. And then take a look of the long list of gifts Trump has given Putin in this article.

https://thehill.com/opinion/international/422580-the-gift-of-the-magi-trump s-presents-for-putin


BrerRabbit - 5/7/2019 at 05:38 PM

quote:
. . .when are they going to get their great "pay off" . . .


No one single payoff, they are wearing us down, working their way into our business. It is a protracted game, this didn't start with Trimp - at present we are able to see it operating, because of the obvious connections between this admin and Russia. Huge payoffs in the Ukraine. Huge. Clinton vs Trump was basically the Ukrainian civil war for the Russians. Who will contol the pipelines to Europe from Eurasia, all that. It is way bigger than our little political circus.


nebish - 5/8/2019 at 04:41 AM

quote:
Let's start with the bipartisan sanctions imposed by congress that Trump never put into effect, add sharing intelligence Israeli intelligence with Russia when they asked him not to. And then take a look of the long list of gifts Trump has given Putin in this article.

https://thehill.com/opinion/international/422580-the-gift-of-the-magi-trump s-presents-for-putin


quote:
No one single payoff, they are wearing us down, working their way into our business. It is a protracted game, this didn't start with Trimp - at present we are able to see it operating, because of the obvious connections between this admin and Russia. Huge payoffs in the Ukraine. Huge. Clinton vs Trump was basically the Ukrainian civil war for the Russians. Who will contol the pipelines to Europe from Eurasia, all that. It is way bigger than our little political circus.


OK, fair points raised you two. Some things do add up, but still, I mean come on...the Kuril Islands, that is one of the things the hill article leads with. Good, I'm glad that the US can never have troops there. I mean you never want to say never, but fewer places we can deploy troops around the globe the better. Controlling pipelines in Europe? Seriously? This is something we need to care about?

Look, I may've missed the mark on Russia isn't getting anything out of this administration's blind eye or out right favors.

Here is what bothers me and I think will draw us all together, what are we getting out of this? If Russia is happy with this or that or the other thing, fine - whatever, Russia can have more influence (and headaches) in the middle east. But, by us ceding that to them, where are we gaining? Does anyone find it strange that the North Koreans would pull the trigger on their missile launch shortly after Kim's trip to Russia? If Russia was on our side then I would think they can levy influence over a country like NK (much like China can when they want). But Russia isn't on our side, just every now and then they come through on something that is important to us and we turn away on something that is important to them. That is the sell, right? That Trump has some kind of ability to work with Russia to get them to do things we want. Well, I'm waiting, just like all of you to see where and when that is going to happen. Maybe it never happens. And Russia gets all their small victories on things that are important to them and we get nothing. I don't care about what they get, I care about what we don't get that we should get, or want to get. That is where the failure is in my eyes. It's fine and dandy for some of these adversary countries to have more latitude with their agendas, but only if we are netting something in the process. That is not happening. So I suppose we could say we all agree on the bottom line which end of the day bottom line is what matters most.


BrerRabbit - 5/20/2019 at 03:47 AM

Good angles. What I was getting at was more along the lines of Russia working its way into our politics and economy - not an entity "out there." That seems the biggest threat to the US, and not only from Russia, but from China, Saudi - any big economy getting us in a stranglehold and morphing our liberty into something to serve their interests.

[Edited on 5/20/2019 by BrerRabbit]


Jerry - 5/20/2019 at 09:28 PM

quote:
quote:
Seems to be the Liberal/Leftist/Democratic mantra, no matter what the hatred of the President "trumps" all else.

Pretty sad and if the left hopes to gain the WH in 2020 there better be more to your platform than embarrassment.


Considering the literal mantra for the 2016 Republican Convention was "anyone but her", and it actually worked, you either have a short memory or are being pretty hypocritical. And considering there are Republicans out there who have denounced or questioned Trump's actions and behavior, it's not just a "mantra" these days.


Are you talking about the ABC (Anybody But Clinton) saying? Wasn't that on the same level as the ABB (Anybody But Bush) phrased used on this website quite frequently in 2012?

I was an ABC voter, and I'm independent. I just could not in good consciousness vote for her.


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