Thread: Herschel Walker on why Colin Kaepernick is Out of Work

robslob - 5/20/2018 at 03:06 PM

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2774411-herschel-walker-says-he-underst ands-why-teams-wont-sign-colin-kaepernick

No disrespect whatsoever to Colin Kaepernick and the cause he is behind. However, Herschel Walker is saying exactly what I have said all along: An NFL team is the owner's entity and if they do not want politically motivated protests occurring at their business they have EVERY right to enforce that.


StratDal - 5/20/2018 at 10:40 PM

quote:
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2774411-herschel-walker-says-he-u nderstands-why-teams-wont-sign-colin-kaepernick

No disrespect whatsoever to Colin Kaepernick and the cause he is behind. However, Herschel Walker is saying exactly what I have said all along: An NFL team is the owner's entity and if they do not want politically motivated protests occurring at their business they have EVERY right to enforce that.


I've always thought that Kaepernick's skills were limited and that's why he can't land a team. When it comes to the NFL, if a player can play and get the job done, he plays. Owners and coaches will make excuses for anyone who can carry the rock, make a tackle, or catch the game winning pass. Lots of fans will do that too.


Muleman1994 - 5/21/2018 at 07:04 PM

Kaepernick is not employed because he is a poor quarterback and his racist actions are an embarrassment.
The owners do not want a poor quarterback or a racist to use their field to disrespect our country.


[Edited on 5/21/2018 by Muleman1994]


pops42 - 5/21/2018 at 08:55 PM

quote:
Kaepernick is not employed because he is a poor quarterback and his racist actions are an embarrassment.
The owners do not want a poor quarterback or a racist to use their field to disrespect our country.


[Edited on 5/21/2018 by Muleman1994]
So he's a "racist" because he makes a statement against racial bias by some police officers in this country unjustly profiling and killing african americans?. [he also put a million dollars of his own money behind the cause] Not only are you stupid, but also a racist, and useless fat red-neck wanna-be.


nebish - 5/22/2018 at 02:13 AM

Controversy is bad for business.

NFL is pretty dependent on good PR and fan relations. Any kind of backlash is bad for their business model.

More pro legues are coming. XFL, Alliance of American Football. If Kaepernick wants to play football there are more chances to do so. That and Canada. If one wants to play pro football there are outlets for one to try and do that. If one wants to push for social or racial change, there are outlets to do that. The two are not always synonymous. Everyone has different end games.

I think Kaepernick should focus on his social and racial change. He was a very good college quarterback that are a dime a dozen, guys like him in college come and go every single year. He was a flash in the pan in the NFL. NFL careers are short. Fighting for equality and fairness never ends. If that is his calling he need not be in the NFL to do that.


BoytonBrother - 5/22/2018 at 02:30 AM

quote:
Kaepernick is not employed because he is a poor quarterback


Sounds like you don't know football that well either. He is certainly good enough to be a back-up, or a 3rd string.

quote:
and his racist actions are an embarrassment. The owners do not want a poor quarterback or a racist to use their field to disrespect our country.


You misunderstand quite a bit in this story. His downfall began with the police pigs on his socks. IMO this exposed him as a fraud. If he was truly about improving relations, the thought of buying those socks wouldn't have ever entered his mind, let alone wear them on the field. Had his only actions been a kneel during the anthem, I'd back him. But he didn't. Secondly, he became a financial liability because of his choices, and the owners have every right to avoid that risk. If you think the owners care about a player being racist, I have some property in Florida I'd like to sell you.



BIGV - 5/22/2018 at 06:27 AM

quote:
So he's a "racist" because he makes a statement against racial bias by some police officers in this country unjustly profiling and killing african americans?.


Colin stated his opinion.

People on this site have been called "Racist" for thinking and saying they believe Illegal Immigration is wrong....The term seems to get thrown around a lot when people don't care for an opinion that differs from their own.


BrerRabbit - 5/22/2018 at 04:22 PM

quote:
The term seems to get thrown around a lot when people don't care for an opinion that differs from their own.


All it took for me to earn the title of Top Whipping Post Racist was to refer to the Charlie Daniels Tribute show as Whitestock. That really hit a nerve. So far I remain unchallenged.

Interesting cultural difference there between blacks and whites, how blacks joke about race all the time, where if whites poke fun at whites they get all sensitive about it.

I just don't get it. I have nothing aganst white folks. I get along well with those people, at work and socially. I understand those people and respect their culture. I have white friends. In some ways I am more white than a lot of white people. I certainly know more about white history, culture, and European history than many whites. It helps that I am pale enough that I am actually paler than most whites, so I pass for white. I like some white food (can't stand sülze though, makes me nauseous) go to white restaurants on occasion. I even married a white girl, and wouldn't care if my daughter married a white man. I like a lot of white music, although I don't particularly care for Charlie Daniels, but he is certainly a credit to his race.

[Edited on 5/22/2018 by BrerRabbit]


BoytonBrother - 5/22/2018 at 04:25 PM

quote:
People on this site have been called "Racist" for thinking and saying they believe Illegal Immigration is wrong....


Wrong, simplistic, and childish. You’ve been called racist because of the anger you display towards minorities, but never towards whites who are far worse.

quote:
The term seems to get thrown around a lot when people don't care for an opinion that differs from their own.


This childish simplistic statement is nothing more than a defense mechanism you use when people call you out on your flaws.


BIGV - 5/22/2018 at 04:29 PM

quote:
quote:
People on this site have been called "Racist" for thinking and saying they believe Illegal Immigration is wrong....


Wrong, simplistic, and childish. You’ve been called racist because of the anger you display towards minorities, but never towards whites who are far worse.


Once again, nothing more than your opinion and one you are entitled to.

quote:
The term seems to get thrown around a lot when people don't care for an opinion that differs from their own.


This childish simplistic statement is nothing more than a defense mechanism you use when people call you out on your flaws.


"Flaws"...lol, on whose scale?.....Oh that's right!....The Liberal one.


BoytonBrother - 5/22/2018 at 04:38 PM

quote:
"Flaws"...lol, on whose scale?


At least you didn’t deny it’s a defense mechanism.


BIGV - 5/22/2018 at 04:50 PM

quote:
quote:
"Flaws"...lol, on whose scale?


At least you didn’t deny it’s a defense mechanism.


"Defense mechanism"?...please. You just can't seem to grasp the concept that the way you view things is not the only way to see them.

Enjoy the day


Stephen - 5/22/2018 at 07:56 PM

What about that Milwaukee Bucks guard who was tased, completely unprovoked -- it's an all too common reason why people of color feel **** on/denigrated/under an unsaid but very present threat every day -- one recalls James Blake, the tennis player from a couple of years ago.....& the DC area congressman who got pulled over something like 7 times...…….

yet people will look at that video of the Bucks player, & have a different opinion......so what
I think Kapernick is a good player, he's proved that -- Browns should sign him to back up Baker


pops42 - 5/22/2018 at 09:08 PM

He has plenty of NFL experience, helped get the 49ers to the Super Bowl in 2012, I think he could be an asset to many NFL teams. https://www.sbnation.com/2018/3/15/17126814/colin-kaepernick-workout-video- houston

[Edited on 5/22/2018 by pops42]


BrerRabbit - 5/23/2018 at 04:54 PM

(migrated this from the school massacre thread)

quote:
Where I have "an issue" is his choice of platforms.


I'm sure this was a common complaint back when protest invaded pop music. And then became an art form, the shrieking howls of war and discontent transmuted into vocal and instrumental style, huge amps, effects, electronic R&D, and mind expansion, driving a tech revolution that led us right here to this point. Point, it all works together.

Colin simply expressed his conscience within his environment, where he happened to be when called.

(Aside, hey, "protest sports" could get interesting, bring some immediacy and urgency into a stale commercial ritual, same way protest revived commercial music. Incredible feats of inspired daring as the player strives to defend a cause they actually care about, would sure beat driving for STP or Bank of America.)

Looks like he was protesting in a perfect platform to reach a lot of people who otherwise never would have paid any attention. He made his decision, took initiative, displayed valor and courage, accepted consequence with dignity, brought his concern to the fore, and left a lot of people stirred up in his wake, all without harming a soul or causing the slightest inconvenience to anyone other than their own reactions and discomfort.

Coca Cola, Pepsi, Samsung, don't turn off their signs during the Anthem, that's a lot more disrespectful than taking a knee. Would you stand and wave a Pepsi flag during the anthem? Why are sponsors allowed to wave their flags during the anthem? Because they ARE the game, they own the players and the spectators, and think they own the country.

Very successful peaceful protest. MLK would have been proud.





robslob - 5/23/2018 at 05:24 PM

As originally stated when I started this post, my position in that an NFL team is the owner's entity and if they choose not to have political protests at their games they have every right to enforce that.

For those who claim that Kaepernick's actions involve a very pertinent and important form of protest, my question to you would be this:

Just exactly WHERE does this end? Kaepernick had in mind the treatment of blacks by police officers, a very legitimate and hot topic. So maybe a couple of other players are upset about the treatment of women in the workplace in our society. Some others are upset about domestic violence. And a few others are pissed off about the lack of safety measures for coal miners in Kentucky. Maybe a few others are rebuked by the low wages paid to fast food workers trying to feed their families.

What if ALL of these players decide that in NFL game is the proper place to protest ANY injustice occurring in America. Do they line up in order to protest at an NFL game? Take turns, with each group kneeling in turn after the other ones? When did treatment of blacks by police officers get precedence over any other injustice? And who makes the decision that it is pertinent to use a professional football contest to forward their concerns?

Do you see now how this really opens a HUGE can of worms? Especially if you happen to be the owner of an NFL franchise?

http://www.kxxv.com/story/38259812/nfl-owners-adopt-new-policy-to-address-a nthem-protests



[Edited on 5/23/2018 by robslob]


BrerRabbit - 5/23/2018 at 05:48 PM

Can't answer to "where does it all end", other than it never ends. Let the sports industry try to ban protest, it just feeds the fire. It doesn't make any difference, these things follow their course.

Was just discussing this with a friend who does camera for the Phoenix Suns. He brought up that often the national anthem is announced "Please stand for the national anthem, brought to you by (sponsor)" . . . and sponsors run their ads during the anthem.

Commercial use of the anthem and flag strikes me as not only disrespectful but criminal, and certainly orders of magnitude worse than peaceful protest.


Bhawk - 5/23/2018 at 05:53 PM

quote:
Do you see now how this really opens a HUGE can of worms?


Well, actually...no. People taking a knee at any point for any reason doesn't really bother me.

In sports, we are trained from a young age to immediately take a knee when a fellow competitor gets injured, out or respect. Funny how it's different when some music is playing.


BoytonBrother - 5/23/2018 at 05:58 PM

quote:
Just exactly WHERE does this end?


I think it’s silly and paranoid to think players will form a mass protest over those other issues.

quote:
What if ALL of these players decide that in NFL game is the proper place to protest ANY injustice occurring in America. Do they line up in order to protest at an NFL game? Take turns, with each group kneeling in turn after the other ones?


What if, what if, what if. Let’s deal with the actual issue of players kneeling over police repeatedly murdering unarmed black men while white armed terrorists are routinely taken alive. Your detractions add nothing of value. If we play the “what if” game with our current events, nothing gets done.

quote:
When did treatment of blacks by police officers get precedence over any other injustice?


Did you mean to say the murder of many unarmed black people? I think it takes precedence because coal mining wages don’t result in the murder of innocent people, just a thought.

quote:
And who makes the decision that it is pertinent to use a professional football contest to forward their concerns


The players.

quote:
Do you see now how this really opens a HUGE can of worms? Especially if you happen to be the owner of an NFL franchise?


Yes. It sucks that some people are so sensitive that they won’t tolerate a peaceful non-violent protest in the name of saving innocent lives. A decent person wouldn’t care.

[Edited on 5/23/2018 by BoytonBrother]


robslob - 5/23/2018 at 10:04 PM

quote:

I think it’s silly and paranoid to think players will form a mass protest over those other issues.


Then both you and the players are the silly ones:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/domestic-violence-nearly-three-u-s-wom en-killed-every-day-n745166

https://www.npr.org/2014/11/12/363058646/coal-mines-keep-operating-despite- injuries-violations-and-millions-in-fines

[Edited on 5/23/2018 by robslob]


Bhawk - 5/23/2018 at 10:13 PM

quote:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/domestic-violence-nearly-three-u -s-wom en-killed-every-day-n745166


Not so sure that's the best example topic to use when it comes to the NFL...


BoytonBrother - 5/24/2018 at 01:49 PM

quote:
Then both you and the players are the silly ones:


Really? I watch a lot of NFL. I don’t remember seeing players in a mass protest about this. I must have missed it.


BoytonBrother - 5/24/2018 at 02:34 PM

In light of the new NFL policy forcing players to “stand and show respect to the flag”, then does that mean they can still raise a fist during the anthem?


MartinD28 - 5/24/2018 at 04:16 PM

quote:
In light of the new NFL policy forcing players to “stand and show respect to the flag”, then does that mean they can still raise a fist during the anthem?


To allow the players to follow the lead set by John Carlos would upset Trump. He would then threaten the white owners since Trump has demonstrated he is such a patriot & represents all the people...good people on both sides.

[Edited on 5/24/2018 by MartinD28]


MartinD28 - 5/24/2018 at 09:33 PM

A true American - President Trump is calling for the expulsion of football players from the United States. For those who voted for him, you should be proud of your vote for someone who would kick black players out of the country but has a hard time in condemning white supremacists.

See the below article reflecting a segment from state run TV:

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/trump-fox-news-kick-protesting-football -players-country-132926844.html.


robslob - 5/24/2018 at 10:16 PM

quote:

Then both you and the players are the silly ones:

Really? I watch a lot of NFL. I don’t remember seeing players in a mass protest about this. I must have missed it.


My point, since you seem unable to grasp it, is that domestic violence against women (to use just ONE example) is every bit as important an issue as violence perpetrated against blacks by police. So maybe some players decide to take up THAT issue. And how about America's children REGULARLY getting slaughtered at school? Are you telling me THAT is any less important than violence perpetrated by cops?

So once we allow protests at a sporting event, why stop at blacks being killed by the police? Maybe we can have 4 or 5 different protests at each game. Is that fair to an NFL owner, who is trying to run a business? Why is a sporting event the chosen medium to protest ANY of these things?


[Edited on 5/24/2018 by robslob]


BoytonBrother - 5/25/2018 at 02:52 AM

quote:
My point, since you seem unable to grasp it, is that domestic violence against women (to use just ONE example) is every bit as important an issue as violence perpetrated against blacks by police. So maybe some players decide to take up THAT issue. And how about America's children REGULARLY getting slaughtered at school? Are you telling me THAT is any less important than violence perpetrated by cops?


No, why do you ask?

quote:
So once we allow protests at a sporting event, why stop at blacks being killed by the police?


It’s what is most important to the players.

quote:
Maybe we can have 4 or 5 different protests at each game. Is that fair to an NFL owner, who is trying to run a business?


“We can have”? You act as though it’s the same as throwing a promotional event. And do you really see professional athletes forming multiple mass protests on a regular basis? It’s silly to think athletes would do that, and that is my point to you.

And I’m glad you are so concerned about fairness for the owners, we wouldn’t want anything to be unfair for them. How can they manage? Others are more concerned about the fairness of being murdered for no reason.

quote:
Why is a sporting event the chosen medium to protest ANY of these things?


Because of the enormous stage, and the enormous amount of exposure it gets. No other medium can produce that level of publicity.


jkeller - 5/25/2018 at 03:01 AM

quote:
A true American - President Trump is calling for the expulsion of football players from the United States. For those who voted for him, you should be proud of your vote for someone who would kick black players out of the country but has a hard time in condemning white supremacists.

See the below article reflecting a segment from state run TV:

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/trump-fox-news-kick-protesting-football -players-country-132926844.html.


Trump wants to deport these players. How does that work? Generally, when you deport someone, you arre sending them to the country they are citizens of. Where do you send the NFL players? Gitmo?


MartinD28 - 5/25/2018 at 11:45 AM

quote:
quote:
A true American - President Trump is calling for the expulsion of football players from the United States. For those who voted for him, you should be proud of your vote for someone who would kick black players out of the country but has a hard time in condemning white supremacists.

See the below article reflecting a segment from state run TV:

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/trump-fox-news-kick-protesting-football -players-country-132926844.html.


Trump wants to deport these players. How does that work? Generally, when you deport someone, you arre sending them to the country they are citizens of. Where do you send the NFL players? Gitmo?


Bingo.

Trump's thoughts (or extemporaneous microphone talk) are that of dictators. He has truly shown who he is in this last year and a half. And this is what; not whom this country voted for?


robslob - 5/26/2018 at 12:16 PM

quote:

quote:
Why is a sporting event the chosen medium to protest ANY of these things?

Because of the enormous stage, and the enormous amount of exposure it gets. No other medium can produce that level of publicity.


I see. So it's the players' right to protest ANYTHING they see fit, correct? "My boss has a huge business that gets TV exposure, so I am going to take advantage of this and put forth my political concerns on this stage. And the fact that they are paying me $8 million a year to play football is completely irrelevant."

Interesting. You might have a different view of things if you owned a professional sports franchise.............

[Edited on 5/26/2018 by robslob]


MartinD28 - 5/26/2018 at 04:05 PM

I'm wondering what the collective bargaining agreement states with the players' union. This seems like a unilateral decision made under pressure from a president who drapes himself in false patriotic rhetoric to create division between factions of the population.


BoytonBrother - 5/26/2018 at 04:07 PM

quote:
I see. So it's the players' right to protest ANYTHING they see fit, correct?


Correct. But they've only chosen to protest one thing. The rest is just a fantasy in your head.

quote:
My boss has a huge business that gets TV exposure, so I am going to take advantage of this and put forth my political concerns on this stage. And the fact that they are paying me $8 million a year to play football is completely irrelevant.


Correct. Now you're getting it! This is called "democracy".

quote:
You might have a different view of things if you owned a professional sports franchise.............


If I was this rich, I wouldn't be worrying about it at all....trust me. Sounds like you just have some personal issue with the whole thing, which is fine.


BIGV - 5/26/2018 at 09:04 PM

quote:
I see. So it's the players' right to protest ANYTHING they see fit, correct?


Yes, as long as they are not at work.


jkeller - 5/26/2018 at 09:25 PM

quote:
quote:
I see. So it's the players' right to protest ANYTHING they see fit, correct?


Yes, as long as they are not at work.


Where in the Constitution does it state that you have the right to free expression or free speech everywhere but at work?


BIGV - 5/26/2018 at 09:36 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
I see. So it's the players' right to protest ANYTHING they see fit, correct?


Yes, as long as they are not at work.


Where in the Constitution does it state that you have the right to free expression or free speech everywhere but at work?


There are consequences for everyone receiving a Paycheck who decides to disobey the rules put forth by the Boss.

True or false?


robslob - 5/26/2018 at 09:39 PM

quote:

quote:
quote:
I see. So it's the players' right to protest ANYTHING they see fit, correct?


Yes, as long as they are not at work.


Where in the Constitution does it state that you have the right to free expression or free speech everywhere but at work?


This could potentially go all the way to the Supreme Court. I don't believe there is legal precedence for this issue. What I DO know is that the Supreme Court has already ruled years ago that an employer has a right to fire someone who tests positive for marijuana even if marijuana is outright legal in that state. The court ruled that a company is the employer's private entity and they have a right to demand a clean drug test.

I'm assuming that if the protest issue did go that far, the court would rule that if an employer wishes to keep political protests out of their business they have every right to do so.


robslob - 5/26/2018 at 09:41 PM

quote:

quote:
I see. So it's the players' right to protest ANYTHING they see fit, correct?


Yes, as long as they are not at work.


Ditto. Seems a bit too complex for some here to understand though, Vince.


BoytonBrother - 5/26/2018 at 10:55 PM

quote:
There are consequences for everyone receiving a Paycheck who decides to disobey the rules put forth by the Boss.

True or false?


Yes, a fine apparently. Point?


BoytonBrother - 5/26/2018 at 10:56 PM

quote:
Yes, as long as they are not at work.


Why do you speak for business owners?


BoytonBrother - 5/26/2018 at 10:59 PM

quote:
Ditto. Seems a bit too complex for some here to understand though, Vince.


LOL, hilarious. "Too complex", yet you bailed on responding to me because you have nothing. It's not illegal in any way. The only consequence is to get fired. The players are willing to take that chance. The NFL and owners have done nothing until now....why? Because they need the players. No law is being broken. Sounds like you are mostly upset with the NFL and the owners for not doing anything about it until now. But you claim its "too complex" for others....don't make me laugh.


jkeller - 5/26/2018 at 11:03 PM

quote:
quote:

quote:
quote:
I see. So it's the players' right to protest ANYTHING they see fit, correct?


Yes, as long as they are not at work.


Where in the Constitution does it state that you have the right to free expression or free speech everywhere but at work?


This could potentially go all the way to the Supreme Court. I don't believe there is legal precedence for this issue. What I DO know is that the Supreme Court has already ruled years ago that an employer has a right to fire someone who tests positive for marijuana even if marijuana is outright legal in that state. The court ruled that a company is the employer's private entity and they have a right to demand a clean drug test.

I'm assuming that if the protest issue did go that far, the court would rule that if an employer wishes to keep political protests out of their business they have every right to do so.


I guess that means that if an employee had a political bumper sticker on his car that the employer did not approve of, he could fire the employee if he parks the car in the company parking lot.


jkeller - 5/26/2018 at 11:07 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
I see. So it's the players' right to protest ANYTHING they see fit, correct?


Yes, as long as they are not at work.


Where in the Constitution does it state that you have the right to free expression or free speech everywhere but at work?


There are consequences for everyone receiving a Paycheck who decides to disobey the rules put forth by the Boss.

True or false?


No. An illegal rule can not get an employee fired. Courts have ruled that way many times.


jkeller - 5/26/2018 at 11:08 PM

quote:
quote:

quote:
I see. So it's the players' right to protest ANYTHING they see fit, correct?


Yes, as long as they are not at work.


Ditto. Seems a bit too complex for some here to understand though, Vince.


Everything BigV posts is an absolute with no room for negotiation. But we are the ones who find this too complex. Hysterical.


robslob - 5/26/2018 at 11:10 PM

quote:

LOL, hilarious. "Too complex", yet you bailed on responding to me because you have nothing. It's not illegal in any way. The only consequence is to get fired. The players are willing to take that chance. The NFL and owners have done nothing until now....why? Because they need the players. No law is being broken. Sounds like you are mostly upset with the NFL and the owners for not doing anything about it until now. But you claim its "too complex" for others....don't make me laugh.


As mentioned I believe that this will eventually go to court. And based on the marijuana issue, I believe I know what the court will decide. You and I can debate all day but it's not going to effect the outcome much.


jkeller - 5/26/2018 at 11:15 PM

quote:
quote:

LOL, hilarious. "Too complex", yet you bailed on responding to me because you have nothing. It's not illegal in any way. The only consequence is to get fired. The players are willing to take that chance. The NFL and owners have done nothing until now....why? Because they need the players. No law is being broken. Sounds like you are mostly upset with the NFL and the owners for not doing anything about it until now. But you claim its "too complex" for others....don't make me laugh.


As mentioned I believe that this will eventually go to court. And based on the marijuana issue, I believe I know what the court will decide. You and I can debate all day but it's not going to effect the outcome much.




Two separate issues. The companies won by basing the fact that marijuana could produce less productivity and be a possible danger if employees were under the influence. That is not even close to a comparison with this situation.


BoytonBrother - 5/26/2018 at 11:15 PM

If it becomes law, then I'll concede that they have no right to do it. But until then, the players have done nothing wrong, and the full onus is on the NFL and the owners to discipline them how they see fit, until a law is in place. My only point. My family owns a small business, and if an employee brings a protest to the store, I'd hope my family fires them immediately for creating a financial risk. But the NFL and the team owners have chosen not to go that route. It's on them. It's on democracy.


robslob - 5/26/2018 at 11:39 PM

quote:

Two separate issues. The companies won by basing the fact that marijuana could produce less productivity and be a possible danger if employees were under the influence. That is not even close to a comparison with this situation.


Disagree, in fact I see lots of similarity. Marijuana is legal in California, yet the court has given companies ultimate power. Political protest is legal...........but IS it legal in your place of employment if your employer tells you not to do it? The court may give companies the exact same power, and I believe that they will.


goldtop - 5/27/2018 at 12:23 AM

quote:
quote:
I see. So it's the players' right to protest ANYTHING they see fit, correct?


Yes, as long as they are not at work.


So when people picket their work conditions they should do it where?...there is peaceful protest at job sites and has been for the entire American experiment...

The idea that kneeling is disrespectful is a joke. I took a knee before my wife when I asked her to marry me. I kneel at the coffin of a lost loved one. When I visit the cemetery I spend a lot of time kneeling at my grandparents and parents graves. I was brought up catholic and we kneel multiple time during mass. We kneel when we take confession and when we say our prayers.

Only in the Azzxwipe world of Donald Trump and his neo-nazi supporters does kneeling become disrespectful. If anyone has been following, it was a former vet that told Kap to kneel because that's what they do for their fallen to show "Respect"

Are they going to shut down the concessions and close the restroom too?...will the Dictator tell us all we "MUST" stand. Is everyone going to turn their phones off and stand? Are we all at home going to stand??? do you now???

Has anyone here ever picketed their place of employment??? Has anyone seen protests going on outside of private businesses

Ya all have forgotten what our families fought for in the those 2 world wars....we're too far removed from what they set up for us and what is now being destroyed.

Donald Trump is not king and little to nothing of what he bring to the table is worth a moments thought....

[Edited on 5/27/2018 by goldtop]


Sang - 5/27/2018 at 02:54 AM

quote:
quote:

Two separate issues. The companies won by basing the fact that marijuana could produce less productivity and be a possible danger if employees were under the influence. That is not even close to a comparison with this situation.


Disagree, in fact I see lots of similarity. Marijuana is legal in California, yet the court has given companies ultimate power. Political protest is legal...........but IS it legal in your place of employment if your employer tells you not to do it? The court may give companies the exact same power, and I believe that they will.




The pot one, just like a lot of things, is complicated. I can certainly see not wanting, say, truck drivers high, or people that work for the electric utility up in a bucket around electric wires high..... there are certain jobs that are dangerous enough without adding someone being high while doing those jobs. There are also many jobs where it doesn't really matter...... like I said, more complicated than black and white.


robslob - 5/27/2018 at 04:23 AM

quote:

So when people picket their work conditions they should do it where?...there is peaceful protest at job sites and has been for the entire American experiment...

The idea that kneeling is disrespectful is a joke. I took a knee before my wife when I asked her to marry me. I kneel at the coffin of a lost loved one. When I visit the cemetery I spend a lot of time kneeling at my grandparents and parents graves. I was brought up catholic and we kneel multiple time during mass. We kneel when we take confession and when we say our prayers.

Only in the Azzxwipe world of Donald Trump and his neo-nazi supporters does kneeling become disrespectful. If anyone has been following, it was a former vet that told Kap to kneel because that's what they do for their fallen to show "Respect"

Are they going to shut down the concessions and close the restroom too?...will the Dictator tell us all we "MUST" stand. Is everyone going to turn their phones off and stand? Are we all at home going to stand??? do you now???

Has anyone here ever picketed their place of employment??? Has anyone seen protests going on outside of private businesses

Ya all have forgotten what our families fought for in the those 2 world wars....we're too far removed from what they set up for us and what is now being destroyed.

Donald Trump is not king and little to nothing of what he bring to the table is worth a moments thought....


Just an FYI Ron, I've made a lot of comments here and in fact I started this thread. And I never ONCE had anything that Donald Trump has done or said in mind when discussing this issue. So to me, your post is a bit off base. As far as I'm concerned, this issue is between the owners and the players (and quite possibly the court) and it was an issue before Donald Trump ever got involved.

[Edited on 5/27/2018 by robslob]


BIGV - 5/27/2018 at 06:43 AM

quote:
My family owns a small business, and if an employee brings a protest to the store, I'd hope my family fires them immediately for creating a financial risk.


And if the owners start firing these guys?


robslob - 5/27/2018 at 01:23 PM

Here is a very interesting spin on this from a post by a friend of mine on Facebook. I think he really hits home:

"Actually looking at constitutional law, the first amendment only applies to the government. A business owner, ( a private entity) has the right to implement policy and procedures, codes of conduct and behavior on and off the field. If there was a violation of constitutional law, you can bet your last buck that Kap would already have this in court suing for first amendment violation, but that isn't the case. The First Amendment doesn't give us the right of free speech to the degree most believe it does."


Bhawk - 5/27/2018 at 01:40 PM

Player conduct is collectively bargained. The only recourse for ownership is not putting a guy on the field of play, fines, or outright release.

As this is an entertainment industry, the truest form of protest would be if players simply refused to play.


goldtop - 5/27/2018 at 02:34 PM

quote:
quote:

So when people picket their work conditions they should do it where?...there is peaceful protest at job sites and has been for the entire American experiment...

The idea that kneeling is disrespectful is a joke. I took a knee before my wife when I asked her to marry me. I kneel at the coffin of a lost loved one. When I visit the cemetery I spend a lot of time kneeling at my grandparents and parents graves. I was brought up catholic and we kneel multiple time during mass. We kneel when we take confession and when we say our prayers.

Only in the Azzxwipe world of Donald Trump and his neo-nazi supporters does kneeling become disrespectful. If anyone has been following, it was a former vet that told Kap to kneel because that's what they do for their fallen to show "Respect"

Are they going to shut down the concessions and close the restroom too?...will the Dictator tell us all we "MUST" stand. Is everyone going to turn their phones off and stand? Are we all at home going to stand??? do you now???

Has anyone here ever picketed their place of employment??? Has anyone seen protests going on outside of private businesses

Ya all have forgotten what our families fought for in the those 2 world wars....we're too far removed from what they set up for us and what is now being destroyed.

Donald Trump is not king and little to nothing of what he bring to the table is worth a moments thought....


Just an FYI Ron, I've made a lot of comments here and in fact I started this thread. And I never ONCE had anything that Donald Trump has done or said in mind when discussing this issue. So to me, your post is a bit off base. As far as I'm concerned, this issue is between the owners and the players (and quite possibly the court) and it was an issue before Donald Trump ever got involved.

[Edited on 5/27/2018 by robslob]


I never said you made a comment about Trump...he is the one that escalated this to the level it got to. He's the one that spun it to be about the flag and not human rights. Kneeling is a sign of respect in so many ways. If anyone goes to church and they kneel during their service I guess now that means you're disrespecting god...

The issue about talent is mute to me...he's has enough to be on a team...maybe not start but he has skills...

Protesting at work can cause anyone to lose a job but we have the right to do it...just as we have the 1a right to say what we wish...even if it shows us to be ignorant and we get back lash for it...are their limits yes and were testing them. But to "Demand" people to stand for a song is authoritarianism at its highest. Again does any one here stand at home??...are they going to close the concessions demand every stand? why is it just a demand on the players and not everyone at the stadium? Should the NFL put on the ticket that you are required as spectator to stand for the anthem. They put on the ticket that they release themselves from any legal liability from situations that happens to you at the stadium...if you read the fine print on your ticket.

It got to this point from the rhetoric from DT

[Edited on 5/27/2018 by goldtop]


jkeller - 5/27/2018 at 05:21 PM

quote:
Here is a very interesting spin on this from a post by a friend of mine on Facebook. I think he really hits home:

"Actually looking at constitutional law, the first amendment only applies to the government. A business owner, ( a private entity) has the right to implement policy and procedures, codes of conduct and behavior on and off the field. If there was a violation of constitutional law, you can bet your last buck that Kap would already have this in court suing for first amendment violation, but that isn't the case. The First Amendment doesn't give us the right of free speech to the degree most believe it does."


Your argument makes no sense. What is correct in that statement is that free speech applies to the government as to what is covered by the term free speech. If I were to call you a criminal racist, that is not covered by free speech. If I call Trump a racist or say that Congress is corrupt, that is covered by free speech. The taking of the knee is covered by the First Amendment as it is a protest against the government (in the case police departments). There is nothing in that amendment that says where and when it is applicable.

BTW, when NFL owners close concession stands when the anthem is played, I will believe that they are serious about this.


BIGV - 5/27/2018 at 05:26 PM

The solution to this was to revert back to the policy of 2008 and prior where the players took the field after the Anthem.

Why are the players in Baseball & Basketball not kneeling?


jkeller - 5/27/2018 at 06:30 PM

quote:
The solution to this was to revert back to the policy of 2008 and prior where the players took the field after the Anthem.

Why are the players in Baseball & Basketball not kneeling?


Players have knelt in the NBA. One player in MLB knelt. He was Bruce Maxwell of Oakland who came from a military family. For whatever reason, MLB players seem to lean more to the right than in other sports.


BoytonBrother - 5/27/2018 at 06:33 PM

quote:
And if the owners start firing these guys?


They’d probably get picked up by another owner who has a need. This is capitalism working as intended.


porkchopbob - 5/27/2018 at 07:26 PM

quote:
Actually looking at constitutional law, the first amendment only applies to the government. A business owner, ( a private entity) has the right to implement policy and procedures, codes of conduct and behavior on and off the field. If there was a violation of constitutional law, you can bet your last buck that Kap would already have this in court suing for first amendment violation, but that isn't the case. The First Amendment doesn't give us the right of free speech to the degree most believe it does.


It sounds like this person is confusing the issue of what free speech covers legally and professionally. People face professional consequences for what they say all the time - people get fired for tweets, statements, or actions that can potentially reflect poorly on their employer. But they can still say it, the "right to free speech" allows people to say stuff without facing legal consequences. So the idiot Nazis that marched last year can do so legally, but their employer can fire them when they see them yelling on TV and realize their H.R. guy's haircut is a 40s throwback and not a modern hipster style.

Kap was never fired, he opted out of his own contract to become a free agent and was never re-signed by another team so I'm not sure what this person thinks Kap's potential First Amendment case would even be. No one is saying the NFL or teams can't have a policy (Yankees can't even grow beards which are still legal), people are saying that they disagree with this policy. But rules are made to be broken - a protest that follows all the rules wouldn't get much attention. However, professional sports teams invest millions of dollars and time into players, so they'd have to do something pretty egregious to face discipline or losing their job (and in some cases, not even then).

Honestly, if the kneeling was just ignored, it would all go away. It's such a misdirected protest with a good message by a dumb athlete, and even dumber people are getting mad because they don't understand the dumb athlete's worthwhile message.

quote:
MLB players seem to lean more to the right than in other sports.


I think it's mostly because it's not their fight. The kneeling had mostly gone away last season until Trump threw some kerosene on the issue for the sake of a few cheers from his choir. Also, the MLB is much more diverse, nationality-wise, than any of the other major sports (Puig and Tanaka aren't likely to take a knee). The NFL is the most American in that regard.


jkeller - 5/27/2018 at 08:25 PM

quote:
quote:
Actually looking at constitutional law, the first amendment only applies to the government. A business owner, ( a private entity) has the right to implement policy and procedures, codes of conduct and behavior on and off the field. If there was a violation of constitutional law, you can bet your last buck that Kap would already have this in court suing for first amendment violation, but that isn't the case. The First Amendment doesn't give us the right of free speech to the degree most believe it does.


It sounds like this person is confusing the issue of what free speech covers legally and professionally. People face professional consequences for what they say all the time - people get fired for tweets, statements, or actions that can potentially reflect poorly on their employer. But they can still say it, the "right to free speech" allows people to say stuff without facing legal consequences. So the idiot Nazis that marched last year can do so legally, but their employer can fire them when they see them yelling on TV and realize their H.R. guy's haircut is a 40s throwback and not a modern hipster style.

Kap was never fired, he opted out of his own contract to become a free agent and was never re-signed by another team so I'm not sure what this person thinks Kap's potential First Amendment case would even be. No one is saying the NFL or teams can't have a policy (Yankees can't even grow beards which are still legal), people are saying that they disagree with this policy. But rules are made to be broken - a protest that follows all the rules wouldn't get much attention. However, professional sports teams invest millions of dollars and time into players, so they'd have to do something pretty egregious to face discipline or losing their job (and in some cases, not even then).

Honestly, if the kneeling was just ignored, it would all go away. It's such a misdirected protest with a good message by a dumb athlete, and even dumber people are getting mad because they don't understand the dumb athlete's worthwhile message.

quote:
MLB players seem to lean more to the right than in other sports.


I think it's mostly because it's not their fight. The kneeling had mostly gone away last season until Trump threw some kerosene on the issue for the sake of a few cheers from his choir. Also, the MLB is much more diverse, nationality-wise, than any of the other major sports (Puig and Tanaka aren't likely to take a knee). The NFL is the most American in that regard.


The kneeling for the anthem has been mostly done by black players. There are not many black players in baseball.


BIGV - 5/28/2018 at 07:30 AM

quote:
I think it's mostly because it's not their fight. The kneeling had mostly gone away last season until Trump threw some kerosene on the issue for the sake of a few cheers from his choir. Also, the MLB is much more diverse, nationality-wise, than any of the other major sports (Puig and Tanaka aren't likely to take a knee). The NFL is the most American in that regard.


The focus has shifted from being about Black Americans taking a stand against Police Departments nationwide that choose to "Enforce the Law" as they see fit versus the politics of whether or not people have the right to protest by kneeling during the Anthem. If the original idea was to bring that plight into the public eye, then why are not Baseball and Basketball players following suit? Surely there are Black players in both sports who take this issue very seriously, very possibly because it has happened to them or someone they know personally. Either it is an issue affecting the Black community or it is not. If you wear the uniform of an NBA franchise, or you represent a MBL team and you are Black, this topic hits you. Either way, you have a huge national audience and if this issue means anything to you and you are Black....then....

This is the Rule in the NBA: "Players, coaches and trainers are to stand and line up in a dignified posture along the sidelines or on the foul line during the playing of the national anthem."

The NBA suspended Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf in 1995 for one game without pay, a loss of $31,707. Afterward, he agreed to stand -- but pray -- during the anthem.

Baseball has no rule

The NFL now has 6 rules

quote:
The kneeling for the anthem has been mostly done by black players. There are not many black players in baseball.


But there sure are in Basketball, approx 8% more. Is the NBA wrong for having a rule in place?...and then enforcing it?

Or maybe it's just an NFL thing


porkchopbob - 5/28/2018 at 03:43 PM

quote:
Either it is an issue affecting the Black community or it is not.


Dude, an entire group of people aren't bound to each others' way of protest just because of the color of their skin. There are different ways of working for change and against prejudice, and it doesn't have to enter every person's professional life. Choosing not to protest in a counter-productive way doesn't prove that other athletes don't care about the issue.


BoytonBrother - 5/28/2018 at 04:07 PM

quote:
If the original idea was to bring that plight into the public eye, then why are not Baseball and Basketball players following suit?


It was something that Kaepernick decided to do. Because Kap wanted to do it, all black athletes should follow him? Why? If they don't follow him like sheep, then they don't care about it the issue? If that's how you feel, then you should follow protests of other people of your race, because if you don't, then you don't care about it.

quote:
Surely there are Black players in both sports who take this issue very seriously, very possibly because it has happened to them or someone they know personally.


Agreed. And since they aren't doing what Kap decided to do, then it means something to you I guess. Interesting.

quote:
Either it is an issue affecting the Black community or it is not.


Which do you believe?

quote:
If you wear the uniform of an NBA franchise, or you represent a MBL team and you are Black, this topic hits you.


With all due respect, you don't get to speak for them. It might, it might not. Some people may just want to focus on their family and avoid the drama that is the news.

quote:
Either way, you have a huge national audience and if this issue means anything to you and you are Black....then....


Then what? Stop beating around the bush.

quote:
But there sure are in Basketball, approx 8% more. Is the NBA wrong for having a rule in place?...and then enforcing it?

Or maybe it's just an NFL thing


Who are you angry with? You sound all over the place? Are you mad at the NBA players for not protesting, that they don't care about the cause? Or are you angry with the people who are angry at the NFL? Or are you angry with the NFL players? I hear a lot of code and insinuation, but no statements.


robslob - 5/28/2018 at 11:28 PM

https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2018/5/25/17394422/nfl-knee-kneeling-labor -law-kaepernick-free-speech-protest-owners

Just to prove that I have an open mind on this subject, here's an excellent and very informative article from a "professor of labor and industry at Harvard Law." Legally he sides with the players here.


BIGV - 5/29/2018 at 06:45 AM

quote:
Are you mad at the NBA players for not protesting, that they don't care about the cause?



Mad? Please. I find it odd that this cause has boundaries. Evidently, No Black men in the NBA care enough to be involved. Just Blacks in the NFL are harassed by the Police.


BIGV - 5/29/2018 at 07:01 AM

quote:
As originally stated when I started this post, my position in that an NFL team is the owner's entity and if they choose not to have political protests at their games they have every right to enforce that.


I agree Rob. The NBA has a rule that it chooses to enforce. Perhaps this is the reason no one in the NBA is participating; there is the very real possibility of losing quite a bit of money. Do the NBA players see absolutely no value in the "Black Lives matter" movement?...Look at the stage and the size of the audience available with the Cavs & Warriors next up. Is this not one of the biggest arguments put forth in defense of Kaepernick's actions?...Look at all of the publicity and attention to the cause with so many people watching.


BoytonBrother - 5/29/2018 at 12:55 PM

quote:
I find it odd that this cause has boundaries. Evidently, No Black men in the NBA care enough to be involved.


What is your point? Are you criticizing them or applauding them for not reacting the same as Kaepernick?

quote:
Just Blacks in the NFL are harassed by the Police.


Why do you believe this?


BoytonBrother - 5/29/2018 at 01:13 PM

quote:
The NBA has a rule that it chooses to enforce. Perhaps this is the reason no one in the NBA is participating. there is the very real possibility of losing quite a bit of money. ;


It’s probably more than one reason and not quite that simplistic.

quote:
Do the NBA players see absolutely no value in the "Black Lives matter" movement?...Look at the stage and the size of the audience available with the Cavs & Warriors next up. Is this not one of the biggest arguments put forth in defense of Kaepernick's actions?...Look at all of the publicity and attention to the cause with so many people watching.


Interesting conjecture. Publicity may not be what they need at this point. maybe they feel that Kaepernick completed a huge first step, and they are planning how to take the next one. So many possibilities and this story is just beginning.


BoytonBrother - 5/29/2018 at 01:17 PM

From ESPN, if Kaepernick kneeled in protest over the mistreatment of veterans upon returning home from war, would those same opponents see “taking a knee” as disrespectful to the flag? Probably not. But because it’s about equal rights for black people, all of a sudden it’s disrespectful to the flag. Anyone who claimed this should explain.


porkchopbob - 5/29/2018 at 02:46 PM

quote:
quote:
Are you mad at the NBA players for not protesting, that they don't care about the cause?


Mad? Please. I find it odd that this cause has boundaries.



As I mentioned, the absence of protesting in one specific way doesn't prove that NBA plaeyers don't care about the issue. Black people aren't a hive mind. Just ask these guys:







quote:
Evidently, No Black men in the NBA care enough to be involved. Just Blacks in the NFL are harassed by the Police.


Nope. Just ask the Milwaukee Bucks' Sterling Brown.

Police apologize, release video of arrest, tasing of Bucks' Sterling Brown : http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23586406/video-shows-arrest-tasing-sterl ing-brown-milwaukee-bucks



[Edited on 5/29/2018 by porkchopbob]


robslob - 5/29/2018 at 02:53 PM

quote:

From ESPN, if Kaepernick kneeled in protest over the mistreatment of veterans upon returning home from war, would those same opponents see “taking a knee” as disrespectful to the flag? Probably not. But because it’s about equal rights for black people, all of a sudden it’s disrespectful to the flag. Anyone who claimed this should explain.


Some would argue that reverence (standing, not kneeling, with caps or helmets off) during the anthem is a sign of respect and acknowledgement of our veterans and all the hardships that they have endured.

[Edited on 5/29/2018 by robslob]


BoytonBrother - 5/29/2018 at 03:16 PM

Some would argue that kneeling during the anthem is reverence. Shouldn’t you be tolerant of that view?


BIGV - 5/29/2018 at 04:51 PM

quote:
Some would argue that kneeling during the anthem is reverence. Shouldn’t you be tolerant of that view?


Tolerant?...As in being able to accept ideas that I don't agree with?...Sure, but I still disagree, I just won't get angry and stoop to name calling.


porkchopbob - 5/29/2018 at 04:58 PM

quote:
Some would argue that kneeling during the anthem is reverence. Shouldn’t you be tolerant of that view?


I'm not sure why you'd attempt to confuse the issue further, because that's not their intent any more than it is to protest against troops.


goldtop - 5/29/2018 at 05:03 PM

For the record I have always stood when the anthem is played and I'm at a sporting event....I've also noticed many who don't...I have seen people not take their hats off and this was all long before any if these issues came to light.

I think sitting is disrespectful but again I never say anything to someone who doesn't stand. But again the idea that kneeling is disrespectful is comical and ludicrous. I won't list all the things we do in life to show respect when we kneel. I let you all think about that for awhile...But in terms of body language it a submissive act...as when being knighted by the queen or king or praying to god...good enough to pray to god not good enough for a song...hum....

My issue is when anyone thinks they can demand an American to stand for a song or a flag or anything...if you like it or not that isn't freedom...to be forced to stand is authoritarianism. I'm asking are we so far removed from what we fought for in WWI and WWII that we're ready to become a dictatorship and give up 240+ years of democracy over Donald Trump the most useless man ever born?? and his useless words and lack of true American values? over a song?


BoytonBrother - 5/29/2018 at 05:34 PM

quote:
Tolerant?...As in being able to accept ideas that I don't agree with?...Sure, but I still disagree,


quote:
I just won't get angry and stoop to name calling.


Accusing players of disrespecting the flag without hearing them explain themselves doesn’t sound any better.


Bhawk - 5/29/2018 at 05:40 PM

quote:
quote:

From ESPN, if Kaepernick kneeled in protest over the mistreatment of veterans upon returning home from war, would those same opponents see “taking a knee” as disrespectful to the flag? Probably not. But because it’s about equal rights for black people, all of a sudden it’s disrespectful to the flag. Anyone who claimed this should explain.


Some would argue that reverence (standing, not kneeling, with caps or helmets off) during the anthem is a sign of respect and acknowledgement of our veterans and all the hardships that they have endured.



In what other context is taking a knee of sign of disrespect?


BrerRabbit - 5/29/2018 at 05:51 PM

quote:
...when anyone thinks they can demand an American to stand for a song or a flag or anything...if you like it or not that isn't freedom...to be forced to stand is authoritarianism. I'm asking are we so far removed from what we fought for in WWI and WWII that we're ready to become a dictatorship and give up 240+ years of democracy over Donald Trump the most useless man ever born?? and his useless words and lack of true American values? over a song?


"If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion, or force citizens to confess by word or act."

"Those who begin coercive elimination of dissent soon find themselves exterminating dissenters. Compulsory unification of opinion achieves only the unanimity of the graveyard."

- Robert Houghwout Jackson (February 13, 1892 – October 9, 1954) was an American attorney and judge who served as an Associate Justice of the United States Supreme Court. He had previously served as United States Solicitor General, and United States Attorney General, and is the only person to have held all three of those offices. Jackson was also the Chief United States Prosecutor at the Nuremberg Trials of Nazi war criminals following World War Il.


BIGV - 5/29/2018 at 11:49 PM

quote:
quote:
Tolerant?...As in being able to accept ideas that I don't agree with?...Sure, but I still disagree,


quote:
I just won't get angry and stoop to name calling.


Accusing players of disrespecting the flag without hearing them explain themselves doesn’t sound any better.


You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

I understand and appreciate the cause, however I still see it as disrespecting the Flag and those who died defending it.


BoytonBrother - 5/30/2018 at 02:27 AM

quote:
I understand and appreciate the cause, however I still see it as disrespecting the Flag and those who died defending it


I don’t buy that you do appreciate the cause, and i don’t buy that you see it as disrespectful. I think it’s more about the person doing it for you. If an athlete that you admire began kneeling in protest of sanctuary cities, i have a hard time believing you’d see it as disrespect to the flag. I’ll even go so far as to say you’d root it on as patriotic.


jkeller - 5/30/2018 at 02:31 AM

quote:
quote:
I understand and appreciate the cause, however I still see it as disrespecting the Flag and those who died defending it


I don’t buy that you do appreciate the cause, and i don’t buy that you see it as disrespectful. I think it’s more about the person doing it for you. If an athlete that you admire began kneeling in protest of sanctuary cities, i have a hard time believing you’d see it as disrespect to the flag. I’ll even go so far as to say you’d root it on as patriotic.




You left out a word. I believe you meant "If a white athlete you admire".


BIGV - 5/30/2018 at 02:34 AM

quote:
I don’t buy that you do appreciate the cause, and i don’t buy that you see it as disrespectful.



Believe what you will, I believe I've stated my opinion clearly.


BIGV - 5/30/2018 at 02:36 AM

quote:
You left out a word. I believe you meant "If a white athlete you admire".


I'm guessing this attempt at clarification is for your benefit?


jkeller - 5/30/2018 at 02:54 AM

quote:
quote:
You left out a word. I believe you meant "If a white athlete you admire".


I'm guessing this attempt at clarification is for your benefit?


No, yours. Although I doubt that there are many black athletes you admire.


BIGV - 5/30/2018 at 03:27 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
You left out a word. I believe you meant "If a white athlete you admire".


I'm guessing this attempt at clarification is for your benefit?


No, yours. Although I doubt that there are many black athletes you admire.


I don't "admire" athletes, although, there are quite a few whom I recognize as having outrageous athletic skill sets and enjoy(ed) watching play their respective sports. Here are a few: Michael Jordan, Dominique Wilkins, Larry Nance from the NBA. Mike Trout, Andre Dawson & Pete Rose from Baseball...Barry Sanders, Eric Dickerson & Drew Brees from the NFL. I have zero idea where any of these men stand politically. So please elaborate and tell me how "white" was important for you to include.


porkchopbob - 5/30/2018 at 01:06 PM

quote:
You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

I understand and appreciate the cause, however I still see it as disrespecting the Flag and those who died defending it.


If you know what their intended message is, then why are you wasting the energy reinterpreting it for them? The flag doesn't just represent the military. For instance...

Do you think this building is
a) Italian Army Recruiter
b) Roman VFW
c) Pizzeria


BIGV - 5/31/2018 at 12:16 AM

quote:
The flag doesn't just represent the military.


For a lot of people in this Country whose loved ones have served under that standard, it does. Most connect the Flag to the "Star Spangled banner" And who are you to tell them it does not?

Look at the circumstances under which the Anthem was written.

But, you are certainly entitled to your opinion.


porkchopbob - 5/31/2018 at 12:41 AM

quote:
For a lot of people in this Country whose loved ones have served under that standard, it does. Most connect the Flag to the "Star Spangled banner" And who are you to tell them it does not?


Everyone is entitled to interpret the flag differently. But you're saying that because some perceive it to represent the armed forces (even though they all have their own flags), everyone should refrain from offending them? You realize you have just given a textbook example of politically correctness? Convenient.


BIGV - 5/31/2018 at 12:51 AM

quote:
Everyone is entitled to interpret the flag differently. But you're saying that because some perceive it to represent the armed forces (even though they all have their own flags), everyone should refrain from offending them?


Absolutely not. "Refrain from offending them"?....Please, there will always be those offended by something, but that does not make their voice any less pertinent. Me?...I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that in itself does not take away my right to disagree.

Simple disagreement is OK, how you choose to communicate that is up to you.


porkchopbob - 5/31/2018 at 12:53 AM

quote:
And who are you to tell them it does not?


And if other people interpret the flag to be a symbol of all of us citizens (13 stripes for colonies, 50 stars for states) then I am happy to be the one to tell them it doesn't just represent the military and they shouldn't be so narrow minded to see things as only they so choose to.

We all have relatives who served, that doesn't entitle one to be obtuse.


BIGV - 5/31/2018 at 12:58 AM

quote:
I am happy to be the one to tell them it doesn't just represent the military


That is nothing more than your opinion and you are welcome to your own little slice of reality.


porkchopbob - 5/31/2018 at 01:01 AM

quote:
Absolutely not. "Refrain from offending them"?....Please, there will always be those offended by something, but that does not make their voice any less pertinent. Me?...I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that in itself does not take away my right to disagree.

Simple disagreement is OK, how you choose to communicate that is up to you.


Cool. Disagreement is fine, as long as people understand the issue they disagree with.


BIGV - 5/31/2018 at 01:06 AM

quote:
Cool. Disagreement is fine, as long as people understand the issue they disagree with.


Disagreement on any level is fine. "Understanding" the issue they disagree with is subjective. If you don't like the stance taken by someone who disagrees with you because they "don't understand" it is not your obligation to educate them to your way of seeing things.

You have two feet, just walk away.


jkeller - 5/31/2018 at 01:12 AM

quote:
quote:
Cool. Disagreement is fine, as long as people understand the issue they disagree with.


Disagreement on any level is fine. "Understanding" the issue they disagree with is subjective. If you don't like the stance taken by someone who disagrees with you because they "don't understand" it is not your obligation to educate them to your way of seeing things.

You have two feet, just walk away.


That door swings both ways.


BIGV - 5/31/2018 at 01:21 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Cool. Disagreement is fine, as long as people understand the issue they disagree with.


Disagreement on any level is fine. "Understanding" the issue they disagree with is subjective. If you don't like the stance taken by someone who disagrees with you because they "don't understand" it is not your obligation to educate them to your way of seeing things.

You have two feet, just walk away.


That door swings both ways.


Agreed. My experiences in life say that honest, two-way communication begins with listening to viewpoints that do not line-up with yours and responding with intent of keeping the conversation alive.

Trying to convince someone otherwise or defaming them for their beliefs is counter productive and usually is responsible for the exchange coming to a complete halt.


porkchopbob - 5/31/2018 at 01:27 AM

quote:
quote:
Cool. Disagreement is fine, as long as people understand the issue they disagree with.


Disagreement on any level is fine. "Understanding" the issue they disagree with is subjective. If you don't like the stance taken by someone who disagrees with you because they "don't understand" it is not your obligation to educate them to your way of seeing things.

You have two feet, just walk away.


Ok, I thought we were having a civil discussion but if I'm Mansplainging too much for you, I'll leave you be to your stubborn subjectivism where things only mean what you interpret.


porkchopbob - 5/31/2018 at 01:31 AM

quote:
quote:
I am happy to be the one to tell them it doesn't just represent the military


That is nothing more than your opinion and you are welcome to your own little slice of reality.


You have this backwards. Logic dictates that if others interpret the flag differently, then it is prove it is not just one interpretation, and those who can't see it as otherwise are the ones living in their own slice of reality.


BIGV - 5/31/2018 at 01:33 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Cool. Disagreement is fine, as long as people understand the issue they disagree with.


Disagreement on any level is fine. "Understanding" the issue they disagree with is subjective. If you don't like the stance taken by someone who disagrees with you because they "don't understand" it is not your obligation to educate them to your way of seeing things.

You have two feet, just walk away.


Ok, I thought we were having a civil discussion but if I'm Mansplainging too much for you, I'll leave you be to your stubborn subjectivism where things only mean what you interpret.


If I understand correctly, to disagree with you is to be "stubborn". I simply do not see things as you do, that in itself, does not define me as stubborn.

I repeat, you have two feet..


BoytonBrother - 5/31/2018 at 02:46 AM

quote:
two-way communication begins with listening to viewpoints that do not line-up with yours and responding with intent of keeping the conversation alive.


Do you think you demonstrated this with Kaepernick and sanctuary cities?

quote:
Trying to convince someone otherwise or defaming them for their beliefs is counter productive and usually is responsible for the exchange coming to a complete halt.


You accuse them of disrespecting the flag, despite hearing them explain that they are not, and you still accuse them anyway. You are describing you. Do you mean to say that you feel disrespected?



[Edited on 5/31/2018 by BoytonBrother]


BIGV - 5/31/2018 at 03:08 AM

quote:
quote:
two-way communication begins with listening to viewpoints that do not line-up with yours and responding with intent of keeping the conversation alive.


Do you think you demonstrated this with Kaepernick and sanctuary cities?


While I respect CK's opinion and comprehend what he is attempting to communicate, I whole hardheartedly disagree with his choice of platform and what I see as disrespect of those who died for the Flag and the Anthem that speaks of its glory.

That should be sufficient, but I fully expect a response that will try to prove a different opinion to be true.

I oppose "Sanctuary" cities because of the rule of Law.

This also should be sufficient, but I fully expect a response that will try to prove a differing opinion to be true.

quote:
Trying to convince someone otherwise or defaming them for their beliefs is counter productive and usually is responsible for the exchange coming to a complete halt.


You accuse them of disrespecting the flag, despite hearing them explain that they are not, and you still accuse them anyway.


Two differing opinions. "Them" and "Me"....I do not claim to be right, we possess discordant visions.


BoytonBrother - 5/31/2018 at 01:04 PM

quote:
While I respect CK's opinion and comprehend what he is attempting to communicate, I whole hardheartedly disagree with his choice of platform and what I see as disrespect of those who died for the Flag and the Anthem that speaks of its glory.

That should be sufficient, but I fully expect a response that will try to prove a different opinion to be true.


In your opinion, which is more disrespectful to the flag, the anthem and that speaks of its glory: Kaepernick and players who kneel, or white collar tax evasion? I’m serious.

quote:
I oppose "Sanctuary" cities because of the rule of Law.

This also should be sufficient, but I fully expect a response that will try to prove a differing opinion to be true.


Not a fan of letting the states decide?


porkchopbob - 5/31/2018 at 02:05 PM

quote:
If I understand correctly, to disagree with you is to be "stubborn". I simply do not see things as you do, that in itself, does not define me as stubborn.

I repeat, you have two feet..


Ha, no, you don't understand. You're "stubborn" because you refuse to see other points of view, only your own opinion, while claiming the opposite. You choose to be outraged based on purposeful misinterpretation. And apparently you also have a foot fetish. It's kind of creeping me out.


BrerRabbit - 5/31/2018 at 03:21 PM

I'll bet the same folks who are offended by flag protest at home would defend people protesting their flag in a communist country as courageous heroes exercising a basic freedom, and decry repression as undemocratic.


BoytonBrother - 5/31/2018 at 04:01 PM

quote:
I whole hardheartedly disagree with his choice of platform and what I see as disrespect of those who died for the Flag and the Anthem that speaks of its glory.


What about Americans who choose not to recognize our flag, and instead display and worship some other flag outside their home and auto? Would you consider this to be disrespectful to the flag and the anthem that speaks its glory? If so, which is more disrespectful in your opinion?


BIGV - 5/31/2018 at 04:19 PM

quote:
Ha, no, you don't understand. You're "stubborn" because you refuse to see other points of view, only your own opinion


Here we go, "I refuse to see" lol


BIGV - 5/31/2018 at 07:05 PM

quote:
quote:
I whole hardheartedly disagree with his choice of platform and what I see as disrespect of those who died for the Flag and the Anthem that speaks of its glory.


What about Americans who choose not to recognize our flag, and instead display and worship some other flag outside their home and auto?


Outside your home and auto? Sure, it's a Free Country even for those who choose to fly the Stars and Bars...Right?


BoytonBrother - 5/31/2018 at 07:10 PM

quote:
Outside your home and auto? Sure, it's a Free Country even for those who choose to fly the Stars and Bars...Right?


Sure, but do you find it to be disrespectful to the American flag?


BIGV - 5/31/2018 at 07:24 PM

quote:
quote:
Outside your home and auto? Sure, it's a Free Country even for those who choose to fly the Stars and Bars...Right?


Sure, but do you find it to be disrespectful to the American flag?


I find taking a political stance that shows disdain for the Flag during the playing of the Anthem to be tremendously disrespectful.

This will continue to be view.


BoytonBrother - 5/31/2018 at 07:36 PM

quote:
I find taking a political stance that shows disdain for the Flag during the playing of the Anthem to be tremendously disrespectful.

This will continue to be view.


When the questions got tough, this answer is exactly what I expected.


BIGV - 5/31/2018 at 07:51 PM

quote:
quote:
I find taking a political stance that shows disdain for the Flag during the playing of the Anthem to be tremendously disrespectful.

This will continue to be view.


When the questions got tough, this answer is exactly what I expected.


They are not tough and they are not difficult to understand. I really don't know how to express myself any more clearly. You are clearly looking for some sort of response that fits your agenda and well, that is just not gonna happen, we are most definitively standing on opposite sides of the fence and that is fine with me, but for some reason, it seems to get under your skin and you are unable to let it go.


BoytonBrother - 5/31/2018 at 07:57 PM

quote:
They are not tough and they are not difficult to understand. I really don't know how to express myself any more clearly.


You could try answering the questions.

quote:
You are clearly looking for some sort of response that fits your agenda and well, that is just not gonna happen, we are most definitively standing on opposite sides of the fence and that is fine with me


All I’m looking for is discussion about the topic, and answers to my questions, but for some reason, you have chosen not to answer. I didn’t realize you prefer not to get into it.

quote:
but for some reason, it seems to get under your skin and you are unable to let it go.


Nope, just looking to advance the discussion. If you don’t want to answer, then fine by me at this point. Have a good one!


BrerRabbit - 6/2/2018 at 04:55 PM

What goes clop clop clop clop, bang, clop clop clop clop?

An Amish drive-by shooting.


The_Newt - 6/4/2018 at 08:05 PM

quote:
Did you guys know that Mennonites, Amish, and Jehovah's Witnesses "disrespect" the flag and national anthem for various reasons.

I don't hear any calls for them to leave the country, and they've been thumbing their collective noses at the flag and anthem for many years.

White privilege?


I am not Amish, Quaker, JW, or Mennonite but I have other family members and friends who are.

They do not demonstrably honor the flag, no.

But people of these religions would cut off their own legs before they deliberately dishonored, disrespected the flag or the National Anthem, or the United States as a country, and they do not honor the American flag because they are pacifists and have a history of oppression and persecution.

Many Quakers do not honor the American flag either, for pacifist reasons.

ie.protest against war.

They don't make pledges or swear on the Bible. They affirm, instead.

From the link:

"Quakers believed in living in such honesty that an oath could add nothing to what they said. As one of their founders George Fox said, when arrested and asked to swear the oath of allegiance: "Our allegiance [does] not lie in oaths but in truth and faithfulness." When handed a Bible to swear on, Fox opened it at the verse that read, "Swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath" - a rather awkward text for the book that people are supposed to swear on."

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32809040

Also, not all Mennonites, Quakers, and Jehovah's Witnesses are white. I know people who are all of these sects of Christianity who are black, Asian, Latino, and who have a heritage from indigenous native tribes in various central and South American countries.

There are even black people who converted to being Amish, but they find it very difficult since they do not speak Schwaebisch-Badisch, Plautdietsch, or Hochdeutsch, and being Amish is completely different than what they are used to. Of course the Amish speak and write English, but their religious sermons are in these dialects of German, and many Amish will speak these dialects of German amongst themselves, or use them when writing letters.

There's also a sect of Amish who use electricity, use the internet and mobile phones, and drive cars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beachy_Amish

[Edited on 6/4/2018 by The_Newt]


BIGV - 6/8/2018 at 04:48 PM



This shows no ones color, but perfectly illustrates how I feel about CK's right to take a knee during the Anthem.


porkchopbob - 6/8/2018 at 05:33 PM

quote:
This shows no ones color, but perfectly illustrates how I feel about CK's right to take a knee during the Anthem.


Those soldiers fought for his right to protest. I'm glad you get it.


Muleman1994 - 6/8/2018 at 06:14 PM

quote:


This shows no ones color, but perfectly illustrates how I feel about CK's right to take a knee during the Anthem.



The lefties keep screaming about "his right" but no real American mentions it.

CK too a racist stand and insulted The U.S.

His is and will remain unemployed because of his own actions.


BoytonBrother - 6/8/2018 at 07:08 PM

And he's still millions of dollars richer than you'll ever be. How does that feel?


BIGV - 6/8/2018 at 07:34 PM

quote:
And he's still millions of dollars richer than you'll ever be. How does that feel?


Are you kidding me with that crap? How does that feel? What?...Me?...lol. The right to make Millions? More power to him! Seriously. It is about the money. Go get it Colin, and this same cheer goes out to all Professional athletes. Sign for all you can get.

Was this meant to evoke jealousy? Hahaha


BoytonBrother - 6/8/2018 at 07:36 PM

quote:
Are you kidding me with that crap? How does that feel? What?...Me?...lol. The right to make Millions? More power to him! Seriously. It is about the money. Go get it Colin, and this same cheer goes out to all Professional athletes. Sign for all you can get.

Was this meant to evoke jealousy? Hahaha


That was directed at Mule because I know it bothers him. However, I did post legit questions for you in the other thread.


BIGV - 6/8/2018 at 07:45 PM

quote:
quote:
This shows no ones color, but perfectly illustrates how I feel about CK's right to take a knee during the Anthem.


Those soldiers fought for his right to protest. I'm glad you get it.


I get that and am fully supportive of that privilege; the photo speaks for me.


BIGV - 6/8/2018 at 07:46 PM

quote:
quote:
Are you kidding me with that crap? How does that feel? What?...Me?...lol. The right to make Millions? More power to him! Seriously. It is about the money. Go get it Colin, and this same cheer goes out to all Professional athletes. Sign for all you can get.

Was this meant to evoke jealousy? Hahaha


That was directed at Mule because I know it bothers him.


My apologies


Bhawk - 6/8/2018 at 09:36 PM

quote:
This shows no ones color, but perfectly illustrates how I feel about CK's right to take a knee during the Anthem.


There are many veterans on record stating that they have no issue with the kneeling. Are they wrong?


jkeller - 6/8/2018 at 09:45 PM

BigV talks about tolerance and listening to the other side and yet he refuses to accept the position of the athletes who kneel. He claims it is something else, disrespect. Thenhe calls liberals intolerant of other viewpoints.

You can't make this stuff up.


And your photoshopped picture of Kaepernick kneeling is idiotic and pointless.

But keep on attacking "the left". We actually put some thought into our beliefs. You just knee jerk yours.


BIGV - 6/8/2018 at 09:58 PM

quote:
BigV talks about tolerance and listening to the other side and yet he refuses to accept the position of the athletes who kneel. He claims it is something else, disrespect. Thenhe calls liberals intolerant of other viewpoints.

You can't make this stuff up


I am tolerant of it, I just don't agree with it. It is my disagreement that brings forth your intolerance.

"I don't understand".."I refuse to accept"..Please. I have listened and I still disagree. For you to accept that, would be "tolerant".


BoytonBrother - 6/8/2018 at 10:51 PM

quote:
It is my disagreement that brings forth your intolerance.


Not true IMO. It's not your disagreement, but your disparagement of the other side while discussing your disagreement. Why do you expect to criticize people and not hear any heat in return? Seems odd to expect nothing to be said.


jkeller - 6/8/2018 at 11:49 PM

quote:
quote:
BigV talks about tolerance and listening to the other side and yet he refuses to accept the position of the athletes who kneel. He claims it is something else, disrespect. Thenhe calls liberals intolerant of other viewpoints.

You can't make this stuff up


I am tolerant of it, I just don't agree with it. It is my disagreement that brings forth your intolerance.

"I don't understand".."I refuse to accept"..Please. I have listened and I still disagree. For you to accept that, would be "tolerant".


No, you are not tolerant. You have decided that his protest meets something that fits your agenda. But it is his agenda here, not yours. You are intolerant of his position for the simple reason that you do not like his method. Once again, it is not about you. While I understand your position, it is ill used in this case. The story is the protest. Kaepernick used the most visible means available to him to express his feelings. You misconstrued it to make it about a symbol made of cloth that, in the long run, has little to do with patriotism.


BIGV - 6/9/2018 at 01:47 AM

quote:
No, you are not tolerant.


OK, I'm not

quote:
Kaepernick used the most visible means available to him to express his feelings


And I think he was wrong in choosing to kneel during the Anthem.

quote:
You misconstrued it to make it about a symbol made of cloth that, in the long run, has little to do with patriotism.


I did not "misconstrue" anything, I merely disagree with you.


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