Thread: Senate passes President Trump/GOP Tax Cuts and Reform Bill

Muleman1994 - 12/2/2017 at 02:46 PM

Senate passes President Trump/GOP Tax Cuts and Reform Bill

President Trump and The Republicans get the job done. Democrats become even more irrelevant.

Trump triumphs after the Senate passes the 'biggest tax bill and tax cuts in history'

http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-statement-tweet-on-senate-tax-bill-vot e-republican-passage-2017-12


Senate passes huge tax cuts after last-minute changes; conference with House next

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/12/01/senate-passes-huge- tax-cuts-after-last-minute-changes-conference-house-next/914701001/


Senate GOP tax bill passes in major victory for Trump, Republicans

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/johnson-to-back-senate-tax- bill-putting-gop-leaders-close-to-securing-passage/2017/12/01/0226ff98-d6a2 -11e7-b62d-d9345ced896d_story.html?utm_term=.97b64246a982



pops42 - 12/2/2017 at 03:37 PM

Tax cuts for the wealthy, at the expense of the working poor and middle class. gutting medicare and eliminating the estate tax. adding 1.4 trillion in debt over 10 years. there's a real accomplishment.


MartinD28 - 12/2/2017 at 06:17 PM

quote:
Tax cuts for the wealthy, at the expense of the working poor and middle class. gutting medicare and eliminating the estate tax. adding 1.4 trillion in debt over 10 years. there's a real accomplishment.


The sad part is that Trump said the tax plan will cost him, and he won't benefit. We know he's an individual of integrity and can crunch numbers so he must be right. The sadder point is that many of those who voted him and will end up getting screwed probably believe him when he makes such outlandish statements.

For the last 8 years all we heard was "deficit" talk from GOP deficit hawks. Now supply side economics will work. Waiting on that to happen. What happens when dynamic growth doesn't result from disproven text book theory and historical case study?


Sang - 12/2/2017 at 06:24 PM

Right now, the 3 wealthiest people on Forbes list have as much in assets as the LOWER 50% of the US population (about 160 million people). The top 8 own as much as the lower 50% of the WORLD'S population.

Good thing they are getting all these breaks......

My fear is that this is going to lead to revolution very soon....


jkeller - 12/2/2017 at 06:32 PM

Many corporations have already said that they will pass their savings on taxes to their shareholders. This will not grow the economy. What grows the economy is the middle class have money to spend. This increases demand, which increases production, which creates jobs, which improves the overall economy. Trickle down has never worked and will never work. We are headed towards another recession if this bill is allowed to become law. The best hope right now is that the House will reject the Senate bill. I believe that this is possible since they all face reelection next year and the approval rating among the people of this bill is very low.


BoytonBrother - 12/2/2017 at 06:39 PM

He passed something! We have production folks!


Chain - 12/2/2017 at 07:48 PM

quote:
He passed something! We have production folks!


Well, not really....Mitch McConnell and Ryan did. Like most of Congress, Trump has no idea what's even in the bill.

Even worse, Trump supporters don't even grasp just how bad they just got f*cked....


lukester420 - 12/2/2017 at 09:37 PM

Yep tax breaks for the rich yet the poor, inbred, racist, gullible coal mining buffoons are still dumb enough to think a silver spoon NYC con man is on their side. God bless America. Have fun standing in the soup line Muledouche


lukester420 - 12/2/2017 at 09:46 PM

quote:
quote:
He passed something! We have production folks!


Well, not really....Mitch McConnell and Ryan did. Like most of Congress, Trump has no idea what's even in the bill.

Even worse, Trump supporters don't even grasp just how bad they just got f*cked....


Agreed. McConnell, Ryan and Pence are driving this train, Trump is only there to keep the reality tv watching schmucks that voted for him entertained by his Twitter account and distracted from the fact that this administration is continuing to decimate the working class. We’ll be back into a feudal system soon, but hey look at the pretty pony over there!


Muleman1994 - 12/3/2017 at 03:15 PM

Okay, now we have heard from the uninformed who obviously have not read the actual bills.
Parroting the left-wing talking points only shows just another reason why the left cannot win elections.


The far-left extremist’s lies about the President Trump/GOP Tax Cut and Reform bill exposed:

This deceit was on full display at a CNN Town Hall debate this week, where career politicians Sens. Bernie Sanders of Vermont and Maria Cantwell of Washington state leaned on shopworn Democratic talking points as the basis for the their opposition to the tax bill. These include the following five myths that have been making the rounds among Democrats and their media allies.


MYTH 1: The tax bill is a tax increase on the middle class.

Cantwell: “Raising taxes on the middle class is wrong, and that’s what this bill does.”

Recognizing the popularity of a middle-class tax cut, Democrats are trying to use the Bizarro-world argument that the tax cut bill is actually a tax increase. They cite a Tax Policy Center report claiming the bill would raise taxes on 87 million middle-class families.

What the Democrats don’t mention is that the Tax Policy Center is a project of the left-wing Brookings Institution and Urban Institute, funded by donors like George Soros who want to disrupt President Trump’s agenda by any means necessary.

The Tax Policy Center can only arrive at this eyebrow-raising conclusion by making the unrealistic assumption that the tax cuts would expire after 10 years.

In reality, the tax bill would provide significant relief for the middle class by doing the following: doubling the income threshold under which families pay no taxes at all to $24,000; doubling the child tax credit to $2,000; and eliminating the 15 percent tax rate in favor of an expanded 12 percent rate, among other provisions.

The above changes would save ordinary families thousands of dollars a year.


MYTH 2: The majority of the tax bill’s benefits go to the top 1 percent of earners.

Sen. Sanders: “60 percent of the tax benefits in the Republican plan would go to the top 1 percent.”

Democrats are trying to distract from the bill’s middle-class tax relief by claiming most of the benefits go to the super-rich. But in reality, the bill is targeted at the middle class.

In addition to the middle-class provisions mentioned above, consider the bill’s relief for Main Street small businesses. The bill offers a 20 percent small business tax deduction for all small businesses earning less than $500,000 a year.

This 20 percent tax deduction would allow small business owners to keep more of their earnings, helping them to compete with their big business and international competitors – as well as hire more employees, raise wages and expand.

According to the Tax Foundation, 97 percent of small businesses earn less than this $500,000 threshold, meaning the overwhelming majority of small businesses would see relief from this provision.

But who would see little-to-no relief from it? The top 1 percent, with annual incomes of roughly $500,000 and higher.

Given this clear middle-class relief, how do Democrats back up their 1 percent claim? By pointing to the tax bill’s provision to bring the corporate tax rate in line with international standards.

However, survey and economic evidence demonstrates that corporate tax cuts benefit the middle class in the form of higher wages, better workplace benefits, new job opportunities and lower consumer prices.

Even higher dividend payouts benefit the middle class, because the majority of corporate stock is owned by retirement plans, including IRAs, 401ks and government pension plans that help ordinary Americans save.


MYTH 3: The tax bill will grow deficit by $1.4 trillion.

Sen. Sanders: “This legislation will grow the deficit by $1.4 trillion. Mark my words.”

Democrats are suddenly pretending to care about the nation’s fiscal state by pointing to the tax bill’s $1.4 trillion of lost revenues on a static basis over 10 years. What isn’t said is that this is only a 3 percent drop from the $43 trillion Congressional Budget Office (CBO) revenue projection over this timeframe.

But in the real world – outside of simplistic Excel spreadsheets – people respond to incentives. With more money in their pockets and in their communities, consumers, businesses and investors will spend more, creating economic growth that will more than pay for the $1.4 trillion in lost revenues.

According to the CBO, every 0.1 percent increase in the gross domestic product adds over $250 billion in revenue over 10 years. This means that even returning to 2.5 percent economic growth – still well below the U.S. historical average – would more than pay for the tax cut.


MYTH 4: The tax bill won’t create economic growth.

Sen. Cantwell: “No, I don’t think (the tax bill) will grow (the economy).”

Given the dynamic effects on tax revenue from even minor economic growth, Democrats are at pains to deny the growth created by tax cuts. They cite left-wing economists to make their case – but historical evidence and commonsense undermine it.

The tax cuts enacted under Presidents Coolidge, Kennedy and Reagan, among others, all generated several years of supercharged economic growth. The principle is simple: More money in the wealth-creating hands of the private economy – and less in the wealth-destroying hands of government – creates economic growth.

Some 100 economists wrote an open letter to Congress with the following message: “Economic growth will accelerate if the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act passes, leading to more jobs, higher wages, and a better standard of living for the American people.”


MYTH 5: The tax bill will cause 13 million people to lose health insurance.

Sen. Sanders: “This bill… will result in 13 million people losing their health insurance.”

Given this scare tactic worked so well to kill health-care reform, Democrats are trotting it out in an attempt to do the same to tax reform. But the facts are very different this time around.

Far from kicking people off health insurance as Democrats imply, the tax bill would simply eliminate the health-care tax on those who choose not to purchase health insurance. This tax is borne mostly by working- and middle-class Americans: Nearly 80 percent earn $50,000 a year or less. In fact, this provision would reduce the middle-class tax burden even further.

The tax-cut bill just passed by the Senate offers ordinary Americans the best opportunity for tax relief in a generation. But Democrats are putting their narrow political interests ahead of what’s good for the country and lying to try to sink it. Their agenda should be exposed.



BoytonBrother - 12/3/2017 at 06:11 PM

You can’t prove any of that. All speculation, no links.


Chain - 12/3/2017 at 08:44 PM

quote:
Okay, now we have heard from the uninformed who obviously have not read the actual bills.
Parroting the left-wing talking points only shows just another reason why the left cannot win elections.


The far-left extremist’s lies about the President Trump/GOP Tax Cut and Reform bill exposed:

This deceit was on full display at a CNN Town Hall debate this week, where career politicians Sens. Bernie Sanders of Vermont and Maria Cantwell of Washington state leaned on shopworn Democratic talking points as the basis for the their opposition to the tax bill. These include the following five myths that have been making the rounds among Democrats and their media allies.


MYTH 1: The tax bill is a tax increase on the middle class.

Cantwell: “Raising taxes on the middle class is wrong, and that’s what this bill does.”

Recognizing the popularity of a middle-class tax cut, Democrats are trying to use the Bizarro-world argument that the tax cut bill is actually a tax increase. They cite a Tax Policy Center report claiming the bill would raise taxes on 87 million middle-class families.

What the Democrats don’t mention is that the Tax Policy Center is a project of the left-wing Brookings Institution and Urban Institute, funded by donors like George Soros who want to disrupt President Trump’s agenda by any means necessary.

The Tax Policy Center can only arrive at this eyebrow-raising conclusion by making the unrealistic assumption that the tax cuts would expire after 10 years.

In reality, the tax bill would provide significant relief for the middle class by doing the following: doubling the income threshold under which families pay no taxes at all to $24,000; doubling the child tax credit to $2,000; and eliminating the 15 percent tax rate in favor of an expanded 12 percent rate, among other provisions.

The above changes would save ordinary families thousands of dollars a year.


MYTH 2: The majority of the tax bill’s benefits go to the top 1 percent of earners.

Sen. Sanders: “60 percent of the tax benefits in the Republican plan would go to the top 1 percent.”

Democrats are trying to distract from the bill’s middle-class tax relief by claiming most of the benefits go to the super-rich. But in reality, the bill is targeted at the middle class.

In addition to the middle-class provisions mentioned above, consider the bill’s relief for Main Street small businesses. The bill offers a 20 percent small business tax deduction for all small businesses earning less than $500,000 a year.

This 20 percent tax deduction would allow small business owners to keep more of their earnings, helping them to compete with their big business and international competitors – as well as hire more employees, raise wages and expand.

According to the Tax Foundation, 97 percent of small businesses earn less than this $500,000 threshold, meaning the overwhelming majority of small businesses would see relief from this provision.

But who would see little-to-no relief from it? The top 1 percent, with annual incomes of roughly $500,000 and higher.

Given this clear middle-class relief, how do Democrats back up their 1 percent claim? By pointing to the tax bill’s provision to bring the corporate tax rate in line with international standards.

However, survey and economic evidence demonstrates that corporate tax cuts benefit the middle class in the form of higher wages, better workplace benefits, new job opportunities and lower consumer prices.

Even higher dividend payouts benefit the middle class, because the majority of corporate stock is owned by retirement plans, including IRAs, 401ks and government pension plans that help ordinary Americans save.


MYTH 3: The tax bill will grow deficit by $1.4 trillion.

Sen. Sanders: “This legislation will grow the deficit by $1.4 trillion. Mark my words.”

Democrats are suddenly pretending to care about the nation’s fiscal state by pointing to the tax bill’s $1.4 trillion of lost revenues on a static basis over 10 years. What isn’t said is that this is only a 3 percent drop from the $43 trillion Congressional Budget Office (CBO) revenue projection over this timeframe.

But in the real world – outside of simplistic Excel spreadsheets – people respond to incentives. With more money in their pockets and in their communities, consumers, businesses and investors will spend more, creating economic growth that will more than pay for the $1.4 trillion in lost revenues.

According to the CBO, every 0.1 percent increase in the gross domestic product adds over $250 billion in revenue over 10 years. This means that even returning to 2.5 percent economic growth – still well below the U.S. historical average – would more than pay for the tax cut.


MYTH 4: The tax bill won’t create economic growth.

Sen. Cantwell: “No, I don’t think (the tax bill) will grow (the economy).”

Given the dynamic effects on tax revenue from even minor economic growth, Democrats are at pains to deny the growth created by tax cuts. They cite left-wing economists to make their case – but historical evidence and commonsense undermine it.

The tax cuts enacted under Presidents Coolidge, Kennedy and Reagan, among others, all generated several years of supercharged economic growth. The principle is simple: More money in the wealth-creating hands of the private economy – and less in the wealth-destroying hands of government – creates economic growth.

Some 100 economists wrote an open letter to Congress with the following message: “Economic growth will accelerate if the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act passes, leading to more jobs, higher wages, and a better standard of living for the American people.”


MYTH 5: The tax bill will cause 13 million people to lose health insurance.

Sen. Sanders: “This bill… will result in 13 million people losing their health insurance.”

Given this scare tactic worked so well to kill health-care reform, Democrats are trotting it out in an attempt to do the same to tax reform. But the facts are very different this time around.

Far from kicking people off health insurance as Democrats imply, the tax bill would simply eliminate the health-care tax on those who choose not to purchase health insurance. This tax is borne mostly by working- and middle-class Americans: Nearly 80 percent earn $50,000 a year or less. In fact, this provision would reduce the middle-class tax burden even further.

The tax-cut bill just passed by the Senate offers ordinary Americans the best opportunity for tax relief in a generation. But Democrats are putting their narrow political interests ahead of what’s good for the country and lying to try to sink it. Their agenda should be exposed.





Is that you, Lou?


jkeller - 12/3/2017 at 11:04 PM

quote:
quote:
Okay, now we have heard from the uninformed who obviously have not read the actual bills.
Parroting the left-wing talking points only shows just another reason why the left cannot win elections.


The far-left extremist’s lies about the President Trump/GOP Tax Cut and Reform bill exposed:

This deceit was on full display at a CNN Town Hall debate this week, where career politicians Sens. Bernie Sanders of Vermont and Maria Cantwell of Washington state leaned on shopworn Democratic talking points as the basis for the their opposition to the tax bill. These include the following five myths that have been making the rounds among Democrats and their media allies.


MYTH 1: The tax bill is a tax increase on the middle class.

Cantwell: “Raising taxes on the middle class is wrong, and that’s what this bill does.”

Recognizing the popularity of a middle-class tax cut, Democrats are trying to use the Bizarro-world argument that the tax cut bill is actually a tax increase. They cite a Tax Policy Center report claiming the bill would raise taxes on 87 million middle-class families.

What the Democrats don’t mention is that the Tax Policy Center is a project of the left-wing Brookings Institution and Urban Institute, funded by donors like George Soros who want to disrupt President Trump’s agenda by any means necessary.

The Tax Policy Center can only arrive at this eyebrow-raising conclusion by making the unrealistic assumption that the tax cuts would expire after 10 years.

In reality, the tax bill would provide significant relief for the middle class by doing the following: doubling the income threshold under which families pay no taxes at all to $24,000; doubling the child tax credit to $2,000; and eliminating the 15 percent tax rate in favor of an expanded 12 percent rate, among other provisions.

The above changes would save ordinary families thousands of dollars a year.


MYTH 2: The majority of the tax bill’s benefits go to the top 1 percent of earners.

Sen. Sanders: “60 percent of the tax benefits in the Republican plan would go to the top 1 percent.”

Democrats are trying to distract from the bill’s middle-class tax relief by claiming most of the benefits go to the super-rich. But in reality, the bill is targeted at the middle class.

In addition to the middle-class provisions mentioned above, consider the bill’s relief for Main Street small businesses. The bill offers a 20 percent small business tax deduction for all small businesses earning less than $500,000 a year.

This 20 percent tax deduction would allow small business owners to keep more of their earnings, helping them to compete with their big business and international competitors – as well as hire more employees, raise wages and expand.

According to the Tax Foundation, 97 percent of small businesses earn less than this $500,000 threshold, meaning the overwhelming majority of small businesses would see relief from this provision.

But who would see little-to-no relief from it? The top 1 percent, with annual incomes of roughly $500,000 and higher.

Given this clear middle-class relief, how do Democrats back up their 1 percent claim? By pointing to the tax bill’s provision to bring the corporate tax rate in line with international standards.

However, survey and economic evidence demonstrates that corporate tax cuts benefit the middle class in the form of higher wages, better workplace benefits, new job opportunities and lower consumer prices.

Even higher dividend payouts benefit the middle class, because the majority of corporate stock is owned by retirement plans, including IRAs, 401ks and government pension plans that help ordinary Americans save.


MYTH 3: The tax bill will grow deficit by $1.4 trillion.

Sen. Sanders: “This legislation will grow the deficit by $1.4 trillion. Mark my words.”

Democrats are suddenly pretending to care about the nation’s fiscal state by pointing to the tax bill’s $1.4 trillion of lost revenues on a static basis over 10 years. What isn’t said is that this is only a 3 percent drop from the $43 trillion Congressional Budget Office (CBO) revenue projection over this timeframe.

But in the real world – outside of simplistic Excel spreadsheets – people respond to incentives. With more money in their pockets and in their communities, consumers, businesses and investors will spend more, creating economic growth that will more than pay for the $1.4 trillion in lost revenues.

According to the CBO, every 0.1 percent increase in the gross domestic product adds over $250 billion in revenue over 10 years. This means that even returning to 2.5 percent economic growth – still well below the U.S. historical average – would more than pay for the tax cut.


MYTH 4: The tax bill won’t create economic growth.

Sen. Cantwell: “No, I don’t think (the tax bill) will grow (the economy).”

Given the dynamic effects on tax revenue from even minor economic growth, Democrats are at pains to deny the growth created by tax cuts. They cite left-wing economists to make their case – but historical evidence and commonsense undermine it.

The tax cuts enacted under Presidents Coolidge, Kennedy and Reagan, among others, all generated several years of supercharged economic growth. The principle is simple: More money in the wealth-creating hands of the private economy – and less in the wealth-destroying hands of government – creates economic growth.

Some 100 economists wrote an open letter to Congress with the following message: “Economic growth will accelerate if the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act passes, leading to more jobs, higher wages, and a better standard of living for the American people.”


MYTH 5: The tax bill will cause 13 million people to lose health insurance.

Sen. Sanders: “This bill… will result in 13 million people losing their health insurance.”

Given this scare tactic worked so well to kill health-care reform, Democrats are trotting it out in an attempt to do the same to tax reform. But the facts are very different this time around.

Far from kicking people off health insurance as Democrats imply, the tax bill would simply eliminate the health-care tax on those who choose not to purchase health insurance. This tax is borne mostly by working- and middle-class Americans: Nearly 80 percent earn $50,000 a year or less. In fact, this provision would reduce the middle-class tax burden even further.

The tax-cut bill just passed by the Senate offers ordinary Americans the best opportunity for tax relief in a generation. But Democrats are putting their narrow political interests ahead of what’s good for the country and lying to try to sink it. Their agenda should be exposed.





Is that you, Lou?


Close, but not quite.

We all know that Mule rejects left leaning site. So, I assume he would never use a right leaning site. So, it appears that Alfredo Ortiz of Fox News plagiarized our fair and balanced poster.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/11/30/tax-reform-is-on-track-and-democr ats-want-to-derail-it-dont-believe-these-myths-about-senate-s-bill.html


Fujirich - 12/4/2017 at 12:27 AM

quote:
Many corporations have already said that they will pass their savings on taxes to their shareholders. This will not grow the economy. What grows the economy is the middle class have money to spend. This increases demand, which increases production, which creates jobs, which improves the overall economy. Trickle down has never worked and will never work. We are headed towards another recession if this bill is allowed to become law. The best hope right now is that the House will reject the Senate bill. I believe that this is possible since they all face reelection next year and the approval rating among the people of this bill is very low.
Static economic thinking. Fortunately money doesn't work that way.

So what if the money goes to shareholders? Are they gonna take it and hide it under their beds? If not, it becomes funds for investment, whether in the original company or others it might get moved to. Even if placed in the worst place of all - a bank - it will be re-used for mortgages, businesses, loans, ect. You know; things that grow the economy.

And aren't the shareholders also millions and millions of middle class folks with their 401k's? They couldn't possibly put additional wealth to use in the economy.

And then that rusty old boogeyman: trickle down! Since the invention of money, its how the economy works. But since being transmuted into a political bludgeon, its served a new life as tool for economic ignorance. Here's a question: name any period of economic growth where the wealthy didn't prosper? Good luck with that, but it forms the feeble opposition of every attempt to give the producers their money back instead of trusting politicians to use it for their political gain. How anyone can defend the latter is mind-boggling.

And finally; recession? You know those have almost always been driven by currency and regulatory mismanagement by gov't, right? If lower corporate taxes are such a bad idea (they should be zero, but that's another discussion), they why are countries the world over moving to lower corp rates?


BoytonBrother - 12/4/2017 at 01:01 AM

Fujirich, everything you say is true, but with this big “if”:

quote:
So what if the money goes to shareholders? Are they gonna take it and hide it under their beds?


Some might say that it does, in the form of a 4th mansion, and Wolf of Wall Street lifestyles. Despite the money tricking down, that’s not exactly the idea.


jkeller - 12/4/2017 at 01:06 AM

quote:
Fujirich, everything you say is true, but with this big “if”:

quote:
So what if the money goes to shareholders? Are they gonna take it and hide it under their beds?


Some might say that it does, in the form of a 4th mansion, and Wolf of Wall Street lifestyles. Despite the money tricking down, that’s not exactly the idea.


The majority of shareholders are either wealthy people or people with 401k's. Neither of these groups will put the money back into the economy.

The 2008 recession was caused by the complete lack of regulations, not excessive regulations. Mortgage vendors loaned money to people who had no ability to repay and that forced housing prices to exceed their true market value.

Trickle down has never worked and will not work now.

Other than those things, Fujirich is wrong. Oh wait, he iwas wrong about those things as well.


pops42 - 12/4/2017 at 02:31 AM

A recession is on the way, so trump and his wealthy friends can cash in on others misery. he ought to be drawn and quartered, along with pence, mcconnell, and ryan.


BIGV - 12/4/2017 at 02:41 AM

quote:
A recession is on the way


Source?


pops42 - 12/4/2017 at 03:43 AM

quote:
quote:
A recession is on the way


Source?
Believe me


Fujirich - 12/4/2017 at 03:55 AM

quote:
Fujirich, everything you say is true, but with this big “if”:

quote:
So what if the money goes to shareholders? Are they gonna take it and hide it under their beds?


Some might say that it does, in the form of a 4th mansion, and Wolf of Wall Street lifestyles. Despite the money tricking down, that’s not exactly the idea.
In 1990, George "Read My Lips" Bush signed an omnibus tax bill that included a 10% luxury tax on boats built here. Within a year, thousands of workers at US boat builders were laid off. The private yacht industry, filled with skilled craftsman making high wages, was destroyed and has never recovered.

Did the wealthy stop buying boats? Of course not. The industry just operates out of Asia and parts of Europe now. See what happens when you let politicians tax producers?

I'm sure many of you remember (and maybe were cheering for) Obama's call to slap a similar luxury tax on the private aircraft industry. Playing to his base, he and Congress stoked the class warfare fires with sights of corp execs answering if they had flown in for their testimony on a private jet or not. Fun, wasn't it? But had they taken similar action, the same net result would have befallen a huge industry filled with well-paid middle class workers.

Some of you so love the class battle that you can't seem to see the fallout landing right on your heads. BTW; those hookers in Wolf of Wallstreet made a fortune. So what if Daddy Warbucks builds a 4th mansion, doesn't someone have to build it, supply the parts, and help take care of it afterward?


BIGV - 12/4/2017 at 04:09 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
A recession is on the way


Source?
Believe me


Time frame?


2112 - 12/4/2017 at 06:16 AM

quote:
So what if Daddy Warbucks builds a 4th mansion, doesn't someone have to build it, supply the parts, and help take care of it afterward?


I care, because the poor and the middle class will be paying more taxes, while the wealthy get a HUGE tax break to buy that 4th mansion.

Plus, the deficit is going to balloon. Why is it 5 years ago the Republicans were so concerned with the deficit and the national debt, and now it's never a topic we hear mentioned? I guess that was all fake outrage then?


pops42 - 12/4/2017 at 07:51 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
A recession is on the way


Source?
Believe me


Time frame?
Soon enough. Ill guess Aug 2018.


KCJimmy - 12/4/2017 at 09:00 PM

quote:
quote:
Fujirich, everything you say is true, but with this big “if”:

quote:
So what if the money goes to shareholders? Are they gonna take it and hide it under their beds?


Some might say that it does, in the form of a 4th mansion, and Wolf of Wall Street lifestyles. Despite the money tricking down, that’s not exactly the idea.
In 1990, George "Read My Lips" Bush signed an omnibus tax bill that included a 10% luxury tax on boats built here. Within a year, thousands of workers at US boat builders were laid off. The private yacht industry, filled with skilled craftsman making high wages, was destroyed and has never recovered.

Did the wealthy stop buying boats? Of course not. The industry just operates out of Asia and parts of Europe now. See what happens when you let politicians tax producers?

I'm sure many of you remember (and maybe were cheering for) Obama's call to slap a similar luxury tax on the private aircraft industry. Playing to his base, he and Congress stoked the class warfare fires with sights of corp execs answering if they had flown in for their testimony on a private jet or not. Fun, wasn't it? But had they taken similar action, the same net result would have befallen a huge industry filled with well-paid middle class workers.

Some of you so love the class battle that you can't seem to see the fallout landing right on your heads. BTW; those hookers in Wolf of Wallstreet made a fortune. So what if Daddy Warbucks builds a 4th mansion, doesn't someone have to build it, supply the parts, and help take care of it afterward?
I knew I was missing somebody! I have ALWAYs LOVED reading your posts! It is a welcome sight to see you posting.


Bhawk - 12/4/2017 at 09:23 PM

quote:
quote:
Many corporations have already said that they will pass their savings on taxes to their shareholders. This will not grow the economy. What grows the economy is the middle class have money to spend. This increases demand, which increases production, which creates jobs, which improves the overall economy. Trickle down has never worked and will never work. We are headed towards another recession if this bill is allowed to become law. The best hope right now is that the House will reject the Senate bill. I believe that this is possible since they all face reelection next year and the approval rating among the people of this bill is very low.
Static economic thinking. Fortunately money doesn't work that way.

So what if the money goes to shareholders? Are they gonna take it and hide it under their beds? If not, it becomes funds for investment, whether in the original company or others it might get moved to. Even if placed in the worst place of all - a bank - it will be re-used for mortgages, businesses, loans, ect. You know; things that grow the economy.

And aren't the shareholders also millions and millions of middle class folks with their 401k's? They couldn't possibly put additional wealth to use in the economy.

And then that rusty old boogeyman: trickle down! Since the invention of money, its how the economy works. But since being transmuted into a political bludgeon, its served a new life as tool for economic ignorance. Here's a question: name any period of economic growth where the wealthy didn't prosper? Good luck with that, but it forms the feeble opposition of every attempt to give the producers their money back instead of trusting politicians to use it for their political gain. How anyone can defend the latter is mind-boggling.

And finally; recession? You know those have almost always been driven by currency and regulatory mismanagement by gov't, right? If lower corporate taxes are such a bad idea (they should be zero, but that's another discussion), they why are countries the world over moving to lower corp rates?


http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-gop-tax-plan-gary-cohn-bill-2017-11


BoytonBrother - 12/5/2017 at 02:58 AM

quote:
In 1990, George "Read My Lips" Bush signed an omnibus tax bill that included a 10% luxury tax on boats built here. Within a year, thousands of workers at US boat builders were laid off. The private yacht industry, filled with skilled craftsman making high wages, was destroyed and has never recovered.

Did the wealthy stop buying boats? Of course not. The industry just operates out of Asia and parts of Europe now. See what happens when you let politicians tax producers?


I’d say those yacht companies were being run poorly. And if the net result created booms in many other areas, then it’s a success. .

quote:
I'm sure many of you remember (and maybe were cheering for) Obama's call to slap a similar luxury tax on the private aircraft industry. Playing to his base, he and Congress stoked the class warfare fires with sights of corp execs answering if they had flown in for their testimony on a private jet or not. Fun, wasn't it? But had they taken similar action, the same net result would have befallen a huge industry filled with well-paid middle class workers.


So the taxes didn’t happen under Obama, but did under Bush? Interesting! All kidding aside, you act as if it’s hands down proof that the taxes are the sole reason for the demise. Not so. Surely there’s more to it. My self-employed friend was telling me he can’t afford to go to the bar on weekends anymore because Obamacare spiked his insurance $400/month. I told him he cant go to the bars becsuse he just bought a $600k home rather than $300k, not because of the insurance. Same principle. If a successful business collapses becsuse of a tax hike, they were operating on a house of cards - and thats the root of it all.

quote:
Some of you so love the class battle that you can't seem to see the fallout landing right on your heads. BTW; those hookers in Wolf of Wallstreet made a fortune. So what if Daddy Warbucks builds a 4th mansion, doesn't someone have to build it, supply the parts, and help take care of it afterward?


This isn’t about jealousy. You’re saying that we need the tax breaks because it works, and I’m saying that it’s a quick fix that doesn’t address the root. You only talk about the loss of an industry but what about prosperity for the middle class? It’s highly likely those skilled workers used their skills in a different industry. For your Daddy Warbucks example, you champion the thought of Mr. Warbucks enjoying the prosperity of a 4th mansion, but you don’t give that consideration to the builders, the parts supplier, nor the care takers. The laborers continue as is at the same level and stay satisfied for having the work available, while we help Daddy Warbucks get a tax break for a 4th yacht. This is exactly the point. It’s an attempt to help the wealthy grow while not doing the same for the middle class.


[Edited on 12/5/2017 by BoytonBrother]


Fujirich - 12/5/2017 at 09:12 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Many corporations have already said that they will pass their savings on taxes to their shareholders. This will not grow the economy. What grows the economy is the middle class have money to spend. This increases demand, which increases production, which creates jobs, which improves the overall economy. Trickle down has never worked and will never work. We are headed towards another recession if this bill is allowed to become law. The best hope right now is that the House will reject the Senate bill. I believe that this is possible since they all face reelection next year and the approval rating among the people of this bill is very low.
Static economic thinking. Fortunately money doesn't work that way.

So what if the money goes to shareholders? Are they gonna take it and hide it under their beds? If not, it becomes funds for investment, whether in the original company or others it might get moved to. Even if placed in the worst place of all - a bank - it will be re-used for mortgages, businesses, loans, ect. You know; things that grow the economy.

And aren't the shareholders also millions and millions of middle class folks with their 401k's? They couldn't possibly put additional wealth to use in the economy.

And then that rusty old boogeyman: trickle down! Since the invention of money, its how the economy works. But since being transmuted into a political bludgeon, its served a new life as tool for economic ignorance. Here's a question: name any period of economic growth where the wealthy didn't prosper? Good luck with that, but it forms the feeble opposition of every attempt to give the producers their money back instead of trusting politicians to use it for their political gain. How anyone can defend the latter is mind-boggling.

And finally; recession? You know those have almost always been driven by currency and regulatory mismanagement by gov't, right? If lower corporate taxes are such a bad idea (they should be zero, but that's another discussion), they why are countries the world over moving to lower corp rates?


http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-gop-tax-plan-gary-cohn-bill-2017-11
So what's the objection? Business owners shouldn't have free will to decide what to do with their own money?

Once again - unless they stuff it under their beds or lock bills in a vault, the money will be put somewhere where its working - money never sleeps

Amid all this grumbling about the middle class (who's rates get cut slightly in the current versions of the plan), I've yet to hear anyone suggest a viable strategy for helping them. Just give them cash? Ridiculous. You have to grow business to create jobs that middle and lower class workers can then prosper from. There's no other sustainable way.


Fujirich - 12/5/2017 at 09:43 AM

quote:
You’re saying that we need the tax breaks because it works, and I’m saying that it’s a quick fix that doesn’t address the root. You only talk about the loss of an industry but what about prosperity for the middle class? It’s highly likely those skilled workers used their skills in a different industry. For your Daddy Warbucks example, you champion the thought of Mr. Warbucks enjoying the prosperity of a 4th mansion, but you don’t give that consideration to the builders, the parts supplier, nor the care takers. The laborers continue as is at the same level and stay satisfied for having the work available, while we help Daddy Warbucks get a tax break for a 4th yacht. This is exactly the point. It’s an attempt to help the wealthy grow while not doing the same for the middle class.
I asked this earlier and no one replied - please tell us about any sustainable economic growth plan that helps just the middle class without the wealthy also prospering? Has there ever been economic expansion where the wealthy didn't also do well?

The middle class problem is competition for labor. Without business growth and the job expansion that goes along with, the supply and demand math tilts against the worker. The prosperity during the middle of the last century for the middle class came from our economic and geopolitical survival following two wars - we were the last manufacturing society relatively untouched, and that spurred decades of economic and military dominance. We squandered our advantages over the last few decades, leading to where we are now. That, and the ever-declining value of the currency (as engineered by central bankers) means the middle class stands little chance of keeping up.

I'm not saying I like it, but I do understand that the only hope is to create an environment for business investment that hopefully creates new jobs. I say hopefully because there are no guarantees. What's the alternative - a planned economy run by politicians? Lets all go to Venezuela and ask them how that's worked out.

Even that will only be a partial measure, as automated manufacturing and robotics is set to wipe out huge swaths of employment. Glad I'm not a kid today.


porkchopbob - 12/5/2017 at 03:17 PM

quote:
I asked this earlier and no one replied - please tell us about any sustainable economic growth plan that helps just the middle class without the wealthy also prospering? Has there ever been economic expansion where the wealthy didn't also do well?



When the buying power of the middle class is stymied, a few boats bought by a handful of wealthy people isn't going to jump start the economy. And the middle class isn't all manual labor, it's also part of corporate America. Corporate profits are at the will of the people, and when profits thin, which happens when there is a greater tax burden on those typically buying merchandise and food at department stores, it's not the folks who bought new yachts who get laid off. Yes, if large corporations have less of a tax burden, they can hire more and expand - in theory. But you are talking about wealthy peoples' personal capital, which isn't all trickling down, and might not even be spent within this country. No one is arguing that the wealthy shouldn't profit in this capitalist economy, the question is how great can the tax burden be upon those they profit from before they can't sustain the cycle. Money doesn't just trickle down or up, it's cyclical, and if one side of that cycle bloats, the cycle slows down.


Bhawk - 12/5/2017 at 03:34 PM

quote:
So what's the objection? Business owners shouldn't have free will to decide what to do with their own money?


It's not an objection, it's an observation of truth.

The executive pay gap is real and undisputable. If money was as noble and infallible as you constantly claim, then the economic situation for our entire society would be better. After decades of money available to "reinvest and create jobs," that hasn't happened.

Call me a statist, leftist, socialist, communist, whatever. Top earners in America tend to keep their money and stockpile it. Those with less just have to deal with it or try and find and earn their own stockpile.

The "noble cause" sentiment when it comes to tax cuts and job creators is still as silly as it's always been.


Bhawk - 12/5/2017 at 03:53 PM

quote:
I'm not saying I like it, but I do understand that the only hope is to create an environment for business investment that hopefully creates new jobs. I say hopefully because there are no guarantees. What's the alternative - a planned economy run by politicians? Lets all go to Venezuela and ask them how that's worked out.


The great tax cut experiment was tried on the state level here in Kansas.

quote:
Kansas ‘Real Live Experiment’ in Trickle-Down Tax Cuts

A Flashing Warning Sign for Congress
By Alexandra Thornton and Galen Hendricks Posted on November 2, 2017, 9:03 am

“Our new pro-growth tax policy will be like a shot of adrenaline into the heart of the Kansas economy. It will pave the way to the creation of tens of thousands of new jobs…”
—Gov. Sam Brownback (R-KS), July 29, 2012


“This huge tax cut … will be rocket fuel for our economy…The biggest winners from this transformation will be everyday families, from all backgrounds, from all walks of life, and our great companies, which will produce the jobs. They are going to produce jobs like you’ve never seen before.”
—President Donald Trump, October 11, 2017


In 2012, Kansas enacted massive tax cuts that supply-side proponents said would turbocharge the state’s economy and pay for themselves

In a column published in The Wichita Eagle that year, Gov. Sam Brownback (R-KS) claimed that the steep tax cuts, which the Kansas Legislature passed and he signed, would lead to the expansion of the state’s economy, boosting investment, increasing employment, and directly benefiting schools and local governments in the state. “Now is the time to grow our economy,” he said, “not state government, and that’s what our policies will do.”

Kansas’ tax cuts were similar in nature to and based on the same flawed theories as the Trump-McConnell-Ryan tax plan

This should come as no surprise since Stephen Moore, Larry Kudlow and Arthur Laffer—all of whom consulted with Trump on his campaign tax plan—helped to design the 2012 Kansas tax plan.4 And when Brownback was in Congress, Paul Ryan—now the speaker of the House—served as his legislative director.

In addition to the same fairytale claims of economic and job growth, which are illustrated by the quotes above, the actual tax plan passed by the Kansas Legislature looked similar to what Trump and congressional GOP leaders now propose.

1. Regressive collapse of individual tax rates and brackets

The Kansas tax plan collapsed the state’s three individual marginal income tax rates of 3.5, 6.25, and 6.45 percent down to two rates of 3.0 and 4.9 percent.6 In a similar fashion, the Trump-McConnell-Ryan tax plan would collapse the number of individual brackets from seven down to three, with rates of 12, 25, and 35 percent—with a possible fourth bracket between 35 and 39.6 percent.7 These changes both reduce the progressivity of the respective tax codes and give the biggest benefit to those with the highest income.

2. Business income tax loophole

A key feature of the 2012 Kansas tax plan was its elimination of taxes on pass-through business income. Pass-throughs are businesses—such as sole proprietorships, S corporations, partnerships, and limited liability companies (LLCs)—that do not pay the corporate income tax. Their income is passed through to the owners and taxed at their individual tax rates. Together with the lower marginal tax rates also enacted in Kansas that year, this created a 4.6 percent difference between the tax treatment of business income, now taxed at a zero rate, and that of other individual income, taxed at a top rate of 4.9 percent. Recent analysis has shown that this differential overwhelmingly caused tax avoidance rather than economic growth, with many individuals recharacterizing their personal income as business income in order to take advantage of the zero tax rate rather than increasing real business activity.8 Kansas had estimated that about 200,000 pass-through businesses would use the pass-through tax break, but about 330,000 actually used it.

The Trump-McConnell-Ryan plan would also create a differential between the top tax rates on personal and business income—only with a much larger difference of 10 percent. Just as analysts predicted for the Kansas pass-through tax cuts, the Tax Policy Center predicts that under the “Unified Framework for Fixing Our Broken Tax Code,” individuals will recharacterize wage income in order to qualify for the lower pass-through rate. The center estimates that the pass-through tax cut alone will cost nearly $770 billion.10 And if the differential in the final legislation is larger, the behavioral effect—the shifting of income into pass-through businesses—and the associated revenue loss will likely be even greater.

3. A mixed bag for low- and middle-income people

The Kansas plan included selected tax cuts for low- and middle-income families, such as an increased standard deduction, that nevertheless were estimated to leave many of those families with tax increases.11 In a very similar manner, the Unified Framework would increase the standard deduction and possibly the child tax credit but would take away personal and dependent exemptions as well as other tax benefits, leaving many low- and middle-income families with a tax increase.

4. Warnings of large revenue losses

At the time, conventional estimates showed that the Kansas tax cuts would be harmful. However, GOP leaders relied on rainbow scenarios to predict outsized economic growth. Referring to this scenario, Sen. Dinah Sykes (R-KS) recently said, “Today, we know which forecasts were correct.”

Estimates for the Trump-McConnell-Ryan plan follow a similar pattern. The Tax Policy Center’s preliminary estimates found that in the first 10 years, the plan would lead to a net revenue loss of $2.4 trillion.14 Yet President Trump and congressional leaders have continuously proclaimed that economic growth will outpace any losses, resulting in greatly enhanced revenues—even though no serious economist believes tax cuts pay for themselves.

There are other similarities between the 2012 Kansas tax cuts and the Trump-McConnell-Ryan plan. Kansas legislators failed to follow the normal deliberative process and the plan was rushed through at the end.15 Meanwhile, President Trump and congressional GOP leaders are determined to pass their tax cuts before the end of the year. The chance that they will do so, and without meaningful input from their Democratic colleagues, is all but assured under the budget reconciliation process they have chosen for passing the tax cut bill—a process that will enable them to pass the tax cuts with a simple majority of only 51 votes.

Economic growth and jobs promises never happened
What has been described as “one of the cleanest experiments for measuring the effects of tax cuts on economic growth in the U.S.” was a resounding failure in almost every way.

After the Brownback tax cuts, instead of a booming economy, Kansas residents witnessed a sharp decline in state revenues, sluggish growth, and brutal cuts to government programs.18 Indeed, between 2013 and 2016, Kansas’ real gross domestic product only grew by 3.8 percent, while national GDP growth was nearly double that at 7 percent.

Employment growth in Kansas has also lagged far behind the rest of the nation. Since the tax cuts took effect in 2013, total employment rose just 2.6 percent, compared with the 6.5 percent average increase experienced by the rest of the nation. And the story for private sector employment was similar, with Kansas’ 3.5 percent growth falling far behind the national growth rate of 7.6 percent.



Dynamic revenue never materialized; Kansas’ budget was thrown into crisis; and law makers were forced to slash basic services
“In the following five years,” Dinah Sykes explained in a message to the U.S. Congress, “Kansas experienced nine rounds of budget cuts, stress on state agencies and the inability to effectively provide the core functions of government for our citizens.”

As a result of the 2012 tax cuts, revenues plummeted and the state general fund debt load more than doubled from its 2010 level, leading both Moody’s Investors Service and Standard & Poor’s 500 Index to downgrade the state’s credit rating twice. After several years of draining the state reserves of cash, diverting funds from roads, delaying payments from pension funds, and reducing spending on critical programs such as Medicaid, housing, public safety, and education, the state government still began 2017 with a $350 million deficit.

Kansas citizens continue to pay the price. College tuition in the state has increased by 21 percent.24 In May of this year, block granting of funds to local school districts was struck down by the state supreme court, which ruled it inadequate and found one-quarter of the state’s students to be underserved in violation of the state’s constitution.25 Even increases in sales and property taxes—regressive taxes that place a heavier burden on low-income taxpayers—have failed to fix the budget shortfall.

https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/economy/reports/2017/11/02/441822/k ansas-real-live-experiment-trickle-tax-cuts/




That article is explicitly sourced at the link. I can say as a Kansas resident everything above is true.

It's against state law for the Kansas Legislature to end a session without passing a budget, so for five years every spring, Kansans watched Topeka to see what would get cut next. First it was education, then public services, one good one two years ago was telling rural farm communities that basic road repair projects would be delayed anywhere from five to twenty years.

Kansas is a deeply red state. For over a decade the legislature scores like this on average:

Senate
Republicans - 31
Democrats - 9

House
Republicans - 85
Democrats - 40

This tax plan was championed by Governor Sam Brownback. Since his taking office in 2011, not one Democrat holds a significant position of political power in Kansas. For me, starting at city council, I am not represented by a Democrat at any level up to the President. There are no Democrats from Kansas in Congress.

After five years, Republicans in Kansas restored the prior tax code and reinstated business taxes.

Forgive my skepticism, but the Great Tax Cut Theory failed right in front of my eyes.


BoytonBrother - 12/5/2017 at 05:08 PM

Fijirich, it’s a theory that has a ton of ifs and even more risk. As a Bhawk said, why has the wealth inequality expanded decade after decade? Why hasn’t it worked? And if you believe Trump’s plan will work, what’s the deadline for us to see the needle move in the right direction? And if the needle doesn’t move, then what’s Plan B in your opinion?


porkchopbob - 12/5/2017 at 09:12 PM

quote:
why has the wealth inequality expanded decade after decade? Why hasn’t it worked?


Example: has Donald Trump redirected more money from his corporation to the small businesses that he has contracted or the communities he has developed in, or to his children?


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