Thread: Why did ABB do Mtn Jam?

northernbrother - 4/13/2011 at 04:22 PM

Does anybody know how ABB came up with the idea of jamming on Donovan's song There is a Mountain? It was not in their usual vein of blues covers and they never covered anything else similar to There is a Mountain. In all the reading I've done it is obvious that they were blues and jazz fans but I don't recall any reference as to why they would be into Donovan and why they would choose that song to jam on.

[Edited on 4/13/2011 by northernbrother]


goldtop - 4/13/2011 at 06:47 PM

I think it was inspired by jazz and the idea of taking a melody and expanding on it...much in the way John Coltrane took My Favorite Things and made it what it is today in the jamband and jazz scene. It was a way to feature each band member and to take music to it's limit and creative peak. Plus the dead did a tease on one of their early live LP's and I'm sure Duane heard that plus Paul Butterfield Blues band's East West was probably an influence


northernbrother - 4/13/2011 at 08:27 PM

Do you know which tune the Dead did the tease on? I'd be interested in checking that out. Butterfield's East/West is a huge favourite of mine. Apparently there is a live East/West recording but I haven't run across it.


Bhawk - 4/13/2011 at 08:31 PM

quote:
Do you know which tune the Dead did the tease on? I'd be interested in checking that out. Butterfield's East/West is a huge favourite of mine. Apparently there is a live East/West recording but I haven't run across it.


At about the 9:00 mark on "Alligator" off Anthem of the Sun is one. I've heard it on other Alligators, too.

Go here and go to about the 2:40 mark and listen for, oh, 30-40 seconds or so. You'll hear Garcia do some Mt Jam phrasing in passing...it's very short.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7-H3Aoak3c


TanDan - 4/13/2011 at 08:38 PM

Great question...great post! More...More!


Bhawk - 4/13/2011 at 08:53 PM

Jorma Kaukonen's AUD from 5/18/68 Santa Clara Fairgrounds...

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1968-05-18.aud.dad.82515.flac16

In the second half of Alligator after Drums, There's very distinctive Mt Jam/There Is A Mountain phrasing by Garcia at 5:45.

This recording also includes a snippet of a young Bobby Weir being "interviewed" by Jorma... "F--K the proletariat!"

Oh, and a killer Caution too...


stormyrider - 4/14/2011 at 09:30 AM

4/23/69 during the Alligator jam post drums.
I'll have to listen again to get the timing.

iirc, they also did it a few times in 73


Sandman - 4/14/2011 at 01:56 PM

I've really never understood how the ABB could claim writing credit for Mountain Jam when it was pretty clear that the Dead were doing it years before the Brothers...


PauliG - 4/14/2011 at 03:13 PM

quote:
I've really never understood how the ABB could claim writing credit for Mountain Jam when it was pretty clear that the Dead were doing it years before the Brothers...


Well, really, the dead just jammed Donovan's melody. The ABB play it too but expanded it to a long jam and credited Donovan and themselves (for their own improvisations). For example that opposite melody that is played in the beginning is original, so they should be credited.

I don't mean disrespect to the Dead (I'm a huge fan) but they don't really need any credit for the ABB covering or riffing on someone else's music. That is like my band giving credit to another band for covering a song before we covered it.

I do agree that the ABB were just using the "jazz" idea of expanding on a melody. And of course Warren, Oteil & Derek do that all of the time and "quote" other songs in their solos. - In fact the ABB all the way back to the beginning has always structured a lot of their jamming more like standard jazz. Doing an "A" section a "B" section and the improvising on a chord structure, going back to an "A" section etc...


spacemonkey - 4/14/2011 at 03:14 PM

quote:
I've really never understood how the ABB could claim writing credit for Mountain Jam when it was pretty clear that the Dead were doing it years before the Brothers...


They gave credit to Donovan for the tune. And took credit for their exploration of that tune.

Why would they give the dead the credit for a Donovan tune? or for the dead's interpretation that is different than their own exploration?


northernbrother - 4/14/2011 at 04:01 PM

Thanks for the info Bhawk. I've been a fan of the Dead ever since around 1970 when a draft dodger moved to our town (in Ontario) and started a bookstore. All he had was a backpack and in it was a copy of American Beauty/Reality. The cover was curved to the shape of his pack. I listened to the early stuff but I guess I never noticed the Mountain quote. Maybe I was partying and it just drifted by me.


griff - 4/14/2011 at 04:29 PM

Like in many great compositions, first the theme is stated. Then variations on the main theme using melodic structure are played before restating the main theme. Beethoven and Brahm would be two examples of this approach.


njpaulc - 4/14/2011 at 05:38 PM

Why did ABB do Mtn Jam?

...because Donovan needed a steady stream of income......


midnghtrdr69 - 4/14/2011 at 09:28 PM

quote:
I think it was inspired by jazz and the idea of taking a melody and expanding on it...much in the way John Coltrane took My Favorite Things and made it what it is today in the jamband and jazz scene. It was a way to feature each band member and to take music to it's limit and creative peak. Plus the dead did a tease on one of their early live LP's and I'm sure Duane heard that plus Paul Butterfield Blues band's East West was probably an influence

Did I read or hear Duane say that he would like to take My Favorite Thing and do an arrangement as ther next Mtn Jam? Think I either read it in one of the bio's or maybe it was in an article or interview?


spacemonkey - 4/14/2011 at 09:41 PM

quote:
Why did ABB do Mtn Jam?

...because Donovan needed a steady stream of income......


He sold a lot more records than the ABB at that time.

just saying


spacemonkey - 4/14/2011 at 09:42 PM

quote:
Like in many great compositions, first the theme is stated. Then variations on the main theme using melodic structure are played before restating the main theme. Beethoven and Brahm would be two examples of this approach.



I think the brothers were more into Coltrane and Miles than Beethoven and Brahms


BIGV - 4/14/2011 at 09:47 PM

quote:
I think it was inspired by jazz and the idea of taking a melody and expanding on it...much in the way John Coltrane took My Favorite Things and made it what it is today in the jam band and jazz scene. It was a way to feature each band member and to take music to it's limit and creative peak.


Bingo!


bob1954 - 4/14/2011 at 10:47 PM

I always get a chuckle out of this excerpt from a Donovan interview:

quote:
Q: I have just a couple more questions if you have some time. Just a personal curiosity. Not many people know that the Allman Brothers Band famous 'Mountain Jam' is inspired by your 'There Is a Mountain' song. So I'm just very curious to know if you ever discussed with the people in the Allman Brothers Band about that particular song. The 'Mountain Jam' is a kind of landmark to the Allman Brothers Band. the Allman Brothers Band music is so different from your music...I thought maybe you were friends?.

A: No, we didn't...we briefly met when once, with one of the Allman brothers', his name is Gregg. Who's the other brother's name?

Q: Duane

A: Who's the guy who died?

Q: Duane

A: Duane. Gregg is still alive?

Q: Yes

A: It was Gregg when he was with Cher and that was fifteen years ago (not really, this is a note by me, it must have being at least 30 years ago). He was dating Cher and they were in Berlin and I didn't get a chance to talk but I said 'hello' and I said 'thank you' for that jam' because it's fantastic when a great band covers your song. 'Season Of The Witch' also has been jammed by Steven Stills and Al Kooper in a super session and the 'Mountain Jam' of course and it's so cool to have these kinds of songs that bands groove on. Led Zeppelin used to rehearse…begin the rehearsal with 'Season of the Witch' because it made the balance of the band correct. The arrangement was so simple and so full of groove that the drums and the bass and the guitars and the keyboards could be balanced easy and also the band could enjoy the sound check....ha-ha....and not play their own songs. They could play that and so I love 'Mountain Jam', yeah.


http://rocknrollcircus.altervista.org/Interviste/Donovan.htm


Sandman - 4/14/2011 at 10:56 PM

quote:
quote:
I think it was inspired by jazz and the idea of taking a melody and expanding on it...much in the way John Coltrane took My Favorite Things and made it what it is today in the jam band and jazz scene. It was a way to feature each band member and to take music to it's limit and creative peak.


Bingo!



Absolutely. I totally agree.

It's just the Dead took the same song / melody and expanded on it much the same way the Allmans did, but well over a year before the ABB started doing it. That's the only reason I always thought it was weird that the ABB claimed writing credit with Donovan, when the Dead was doing the same thing a year before.

Now, sure the Allmans jammed it out for incredible lengths way more than the Dead. But that's just "featuring each band member and improvising on a chord structure."

The Dead took the original song and played around with the melody well before the Allmans did.


Bhawk - 5/19/2011 at 07:48 PM

Found another Alligator with a jam on the Mt. Jam melody...1/22/68

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1968-01-22.sbd.miller.97342.sbeok.flac16

Starts at about 8:30 of Alligator...Garcia plays the actual melody line just once, but then spends about, oh, the next two minutes or so expanding on the theme.




BrerRabbit - 5/19/2011 at 10:27 PM

Just be glad it wasn't two album sides of "Atlantis"

or "I Love My Shirt"


HillbillyHank - 5/21/2011 at 12:49 AM

This is always a way cool conversation. My two cents is that in various interviews ABB members have noted how they were into the Dead early on. For example in the bonus/interview section of the Dickey Betts and Great Southern Live At the RnR Hall of Fame dvd Dickey describes how they were into the Dead and then JJ turned them onto Miles and Coltrane... so it makes a lot of sense that they picked up Mtn Jam from that brief passage on Anthem of the Sun (one of the coolest albums ever!) and developed it with a jazz sensibility.

[Edited on 5/21/2011 by HillbillyHank]


LUKE - 5/21/2011 at 03:38 AM

Lord of the Ring


RobJohnson - 5/21/2011 at 12:03 PM

Because it's awesome!

Seriously though, I think they did it precisely because it wasn't like the blues covers that comprised a lot of their early material. It provided contrast to songs like "Statesboro Blues" and showed that the ABB were more than just a blues-rock band.

I would agree that this song is to the ABB as "My Favorite Things" is to Coltrane. A very catchy, durable melody from pop music that is a perfect launching pad for extended improvisation.

Whatever reasons they had for playing it, I'm sure glad they did!


Haisija - 5/21/2011 at 04:09 PM

quote:
Why did ABB do Mtn Jam?



Because it is there.


DougMacKenzie - 5/21/2011 at 07:32 PM

quote:
quote:
Why did ABB do Mtn Jam?



Because it is there.




Pastdreams - 5/22/2011 at 11:41 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Why did ABB do Mtn Jam?



Because it is there.






Amen. Speculating that Duane was playing around with the melody and it just took off into a jam. Pure chance and then when they played the tape back, it sounded really good so they put it on the set list, everybody loved it and the world became a better place when they put it on vinyl.


leafsfan - 5/22/2011 at 03:02 PM

quote:
At about the 9:00 mark on "Alligator" off Anthem of the Sun is one. I've heard it on other Alligators, too.

Go here and go to about the 2:40 mark and listen for, oh, 30-40 seconds or so. You'll hear Garcia do some Mt Jam phrasing in passing...it's very short.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7-H3Aoak3c



Alligator!!!! thanks for pointing out the 2:40 mark Bhawk. I would have never caught that. Love this tune.


peachtruck - 5/23/2011 at 10:43 AM

I am a firm believer that the ABB heard it covered on Herbie Mann's "Windows Opened" LP from 1968 and decided to give it a whirl . . .

From AMG:
Recorded with Herbie Mann's working band at the time, Windows Opened captures the quintet tackling a mixed set of contemporary jazz and pop tunes. Especially noteworthy are takes on Tim Hardin's "If I Were a Carpenter" and the Wayne Shorter composition "Footprints." Although this is not one of the essential recordings in Mann's catalog, it features excellent playing throughout, with an amazing collection of talent: vibist, future funk/fusion star and acid jazz grandfather Roy Ayers; the unique free-jazz guitarist Sonny Sharrock; and the soon-to-be co-founder of Weather Report, bassist Miroslav Vitous. An enjoyable recording throughout.
Tracks
Title Composer Time
1 There Is a Mountain Leitch 6:08
2 If I Were a Carpenter Hardin 5:41
3 Paper Man Tolliver 6:47
4 Footprints Shorter 8:27
5 By the Time I Get to Phoenix Webb 2:22
6 Windows Opened Ayers 7:30


rainy - 5/23/2011 at 11:32 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Why did ABB do Mtn Jam?



Because it is there.






Amen. Speculating that Duane was playing around with the melody and it just took off into a jam. Pure chance and then when they played the tape back, it sounded really good so they put it on the set list, everybody loved it and the world became a better place when they put it on vinyl.



Yep, that's the way I see it... hear it... first there is a mountain , then there is no mountain , then there is... L O V E the Allman Brothers version, but also dug THE Orignal Donovan's... Donovan's hit was all over the radio back in those days... a very cool song..made even cooler by the Brothers..


northernbrother - 5/24/2011 at 02:07 AM

quote:
I am a firm believer that the ABB heard it covered on Herbie Mann's "Windows Opened" LP from 1968 and decided to give it a whirl . . .

From AMG:
Recorded with Herbie Mann's working band at the time, Windows Opened captures the quintet tackling a mixed set of contemporary jazz and pop tunes. Especially noteworthy are takes on Tim Hardin's "If I Were a Carpenter" and the Wayne Shorter composition "Footprints." Although this is not one of the essential recordings in Mann's catalog, it features excellent playing throughout, with an amazing collection of talent: vibist, future funk/fusion star and acid jazz grandfather Roy Ayers; the unique free-jazz guitarist Sonny Sharrock; and the soon-to-be co-founder of Weather Report, bassist Miroslav Vitous. An enjoyable recording throughout.
Tracks
Title Composer Time
1 There Is a Mountain Leitch 6:08
2 If I Were a Carpenter Hardin 5:41
3 Paper Man Tolliver 6:47
4 Footprints Shorter 8:27
5 By the Time I Get to Phoenix Webb 2:22
6 Windows Opened Ayers 7:30


Hey Peachtruck, I think you might have something there. I checked out my Herbie Mann albums and noticed some interesting facts.

Tom Dowd was the engineer on much of Herbie Mann's early work in New York in the 50's.

In the 60's, Mann did a lot of recording in Memphis. Of course, Duane played with Mann on the Push/Push album which was not long after the Windows Opening album. I can imagine that Duane might have checked out Herbie's latest recording if he was going to be Mann's sideman.

Another interesting fact is that the ABB included Ray Charles' What'd I Say on the Ludlow Garage album version of Mountain Jam and Herbie Mann includes Ray Charles' What'd I Say on the Push/Push album with Duane.

In the book Skydog, Randy Poe tells the story of how Herbie Mann sat in with Delaney & Bonnie while Duane was playing with them: " Mann and Allman immediately took to each other musically, improvising solos that stirred the crowd into demanding encores." I wonder if "Mountain" and/or "What'd I Say" might have been played that night.



WheelchairBandit85 - 5/24/2011 at 03:12 PM

quote:
Butterfield's East/West is a huge favourite of mine. Apparently there is a live East/West recording but I haven't run across it.


Here you go.

Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JT0W3Dt87Q4

Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uVnXV_B16w

There's also this album, which is a lot of fun-

http://www.amazon.com/East-West-Live-Paul-Butterfield/dp/B0000034D7

Hope this helps,
Brian.


northernbrother - 5/26/2011 at 03:09 PM

Thanks Brian.
I haven't had a chance to check out the U-tubes yet, but I'm looking forward to it. The Live CD cover looks cool and I'll definitely keep my eye out for that recording.


BrerRabbit - 5/31/2011 at 12:36 AM

On Eat A Peach, approx 20 minutes into Mountain Jam, I hear a nod to the Jimi Hendrix Experience develop out of the drum solo, shades of the drum/bass interlude in "1983" (about 9 minutes into 1983 on Electric Ladyland) then after a couple minutes the guitars kick in with "Third Stone From The Sun" at approx 22 minutes, they play the riff four times.


homeboy - 1/18/2012 at 01:57 PM

I always liked the version by Ivan 'Boogaloo Joe' Jones
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17aS5RkcjV0
The record it's on, Introducing The Psychedelic Soul Jazz Guitar Of Joe Jones, was released in 1968, so you never know, maybe …


Sang - 1/18/2012 at 02:32 PM

Great thread............


I think it's because they had 33 minutes and 38 seconds to fill on the album........


bluedad - 1/18/2012 at 02:49 PM

quote:
I think it was inspired by jazz and the idea of taking a melody and expanding on it...much in the way John Coltrane took My Favorite Things and made it what it is today in the jamband and jazz scene. It was a way to feature each band member and to take music to it's limit and creative peak. Plus the dead did a tease on one of their early live LP's and I'm sure Duane heard that plus Paul Butterfield Blues band's East West was probably an influence


I'm taking your point Ron....


Gregallmanfan - 1/18/2012 at 05:20 PM

My father likes jazz, I never really took to it. One Sunday, he and my mother were over for dinner and I had some ABB in the CD player on background. Halfway through Mountain Jam, he asks me who it was and says, "This is great". My father and I have absolutely no musical crossover and for him to say that at that point in my life was a validation I didn't realize would mean so much to me until he said it.


StratDal - 1/18/2012 at 06:17 PM

quote:
My father likes jazz, I never really took to it. One Sunday, he and my mother were over for dinner and I had some ABB in the CD player on background. Halfway through Mountain Jam, he asks me who it was and says, "This is great". My father and I have absolutely no musical crossover and for him to say that at that point in my life was a validation I didn't realize would mean so much to me until he said it.


Cool story! Gotta love pops!


Russvergara - 1/18/2012 at 08:36 PM

Because they COULD !

[Edited on 1/18/2012 by Russvergara]


fender31 - 1/18/2012 at 08:57 PM

Mtnjam Rocks The allmans have always made any cover they do better than the original. statesboro blues and Blind willie Mctell are just 2 examples of that.

[Edited on 1/18/2012 by fender31]


northernbrother - 1/19/2012 at 10:38 PM

quote:
I always liked the version by Ivan 'Boogaloo Joe' Jones
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17aS5RkcjV0
The record it's on, Introducing The Psychedelic Soul Jazz Guitar Of Joe Jones, was released in 1968, so you never know, maybe …


Thanks for posting that U-tube. I really enjoyed it. I think I'll try to check out some of his albums.


jfk2112 - 1/19/2012 at 11:26 PM

It just struck me that the ABB and their history of performing Mountain Jam bear similarity to the lyrics.

First there is a mountain (jam): Early days to 1974ish

then there is no mountain (jam): 1979-82, 1989 to 2000

then there is! 2000 to present

there were a few teases here and there but that hardly counts... I'm glad it's back though.


Shavian - 1/20/2012 at 08:56 AM

quote:
I am a firm believer that the ABB heard it covered on Herbie Mann's "Windows Opened" LP from 1968 and decided to give it a whirl . . .

From AMG:
Recorded with Herbie Mann's working band at the time, Windows Opened captures the quintet tackling a mixed set of contemporary jazz and pop tunes. Especially noteworthy are takes on Tim Hardin's "If I Were a Carpenter" and the Wayne Shorter composition "Footprints." Although this is not one of the essential recordings in Mann's catalog, it features excellent playing throughout, with an amazing collection of talent: vibist, future funk/fusion star and acid jazz grandfather Roy Ayers; the unique free-jazz guitarist Sonny Sharrock; and the soon-to-be co-founder of Weather Report, bassist Miroslav Vitous. An enjoyable recording throughout.
Tracks
Title Composer Time
1 There Is a Mountain Leitch 6:08
2 If I Were a Carpenter Hardin 5:41
3 Paper Man Tolliver 6:47
4 Footprints Shorter 8:27
5 By the Time I Get to Phoenix Webb 2:22
6 Windows Opened Ayers 7:30


Sounds enitirely plausible.

If you listen to Herbie's version, you can even hear where Duane "borrowed" some of his licks from.

The drum accents are very similar too.





[Edited on 1/20/2012 by Shavian]


DWB - 1/20/2012 at 07:47 PM

The first time I saw the ABB after they moved to Macon, I learned what improv was.
They took the Second Coming cover of "Don't Want You No More" and dropped the
vocals and added the improv, that flowed into "Not My Cross To Bear". It was around
then that "Mountain Jam" was added to the set list and Butch started hauling his kettle
drums around with them.
The first time I heard "Mountain Jam" I couldnt connect were I heard that song before.

Good Thread:


wbcarley - 3/19/2014 at 02:59 PM

quote:
quote:
I am a firm believer that the ABB heard it covered on Herbie Mann's "Windows Opened" LP from 1968 and decided to give it a whirl . . .

From AMG:
Recorded with Herbie Mann's working band at the time, Windows Opened captures the quintet tackling a mixed set of contemporary jazz and pop tunes. Especially noteworthy are takes on Tim Hardin's "If I Were a Carpenter" and the Wayne Shorter composition "Footprints." Although this is not one of the essential recordings in Mann's catalog, it features excellent playing throughout, with an amazing collection of talent: vibist, future funk/fusion star and acid jazz grandfather Roy Ayers; the unique free-jazz guitarist Sonny Sharrock; and the soon-to-be co-founder of Weather Report, bassist Miroslav Vitous. An enjoyable recording throughout.
Tracks
Title Composer Time
1 There Is a Mountain Leitch 6:08
2 If I Were a Carpenter Hardin 5:41
3 Paper Man Tolliver 6:47
4 Footprints Shorter 8:27
5 By the Time I Get to Phoenix Webb 2:22
6 Windows Opened Ayers 7:30


Hey Peachtruck, I think you might have something there. I checked out my Herbie Mann albums and noticed some interesting facts.

Tom Dowd was the engineer on much of Herbie Mann's early work in New York in the 50's.

In the 60's, Mann did a lot of recording in Memphis. Of course, Duane played with Mann on the Push/Push album which was not long after the Windows Opening album. I can imagine that Duane might have checked out Herbie's latest recording if he was going to be Mann's sideman.

Another interesting fact is that the ABB included Ray Charles' What'd I Say on the Ludlow Garage album version of Mountain Jam and Herbie Mann includes Ray Charles' What'd I Say on the Push/Push album with Duane.

In the book Skydog, Randy Poe tells the story of how Herbie Mann sat in with Delaney & Bonnie while Duane was playing with them: " Mann and Allman immediately took to each other musically, improvising solos that stirred the crowd into demanding encores." I wonder if "Mountain" and/or "What'd I Say" might have been played that night.






You are very close, but the timeline doesn't work. Duane met Herbie in 1970 (and was asked to play on "Push Push"), AFTER the brothers had started playing "Mountain Jam".

But I think I figured this out. Here's the timeline:

- August 1967, Donovan releases "There is a Mountain"

- September 21, 1967, Herbie Mann records a 2-minute instrumental version of "There is a Mountain." Tom Dowd is the sound engineer, Nesuhi Ertegun is the producer. (This version is later released in 1968 on Mann's "String Album").

- February 8, 1968, Herbie Mann records the 6-minute version of "There is a Mountain" that is released on "Windows Opened." (Dowd was not credited as engineer on that track, so may or may not have been involved.)

- January, 1969, Duane Allman plays on Aretha Franklin's "the Weight", engineered by Tom Dowd."

[MY SPECULATION: Tom Dowd, knowing that Duane is getting into jazz about this time, says "hey man, check this out...." ]

- May 4, 1969, the Allman Brothers play the first known performance of "Mountain Jam" at Macon Central Park.

So it seems to me that "Mountain Jam" came from Herbie Mann's instrumental version of "There is a Mountain" (It sure sounds like it if you listen to the two) and Tom Dowd was the link.

Herbie Mann did sit in with the ABB at their concert in Central Park, and did play on "Mountain Jam", but all of that was after the fact.





Marley - 3/19/2014 at 03:19 PM

quote:
quote:
Why did ABB do Mtn Jam?



Because it is there.

::Golf clap::

The Dead connection makes sense, but based on that 1/22/68 jam, what the Dead did with the song is nothing like what the ABB ultimately did with it. They jammed on the melody a little and that seems to be it. "Let's jam on this melody" doesn't automatically get you to Mountain Jam. That's where MJ must have started, but I don't think the Dead went further than that. The ABB eventually built the melody into a multi-part suite with defined sections. It repeats that melody in different forms and builds on it, and it even incorporates other songs (Third Stone from the Sun, sometimes Will the Circle Be Unbroken, and on occasion other songs like Blue Sky). I don't know if there's a real answer to the question of how the ABB got the idea because I'd still like to know that. Maybe it's somewhere in Alan Paul's tapes.


Toemoss - 3/19/2014 at 04:45 PM

Donovan made a great song when he wrote First there Is a Mountain. The Allman Brothers perfected it when they performed it like they did. I NEVER tire of hearing Mountain Jam from the Duane era especially and the version on 12/31/73 is awesome. The 5 man band did a great job of it after Brother Duanes death. It is an awesome song and The delight of any ABB show it is performed in.


langman - 3/19/2014 at 06:09 PM

what The Grateful Dead did with what became "Mountain Jam" is negligible if anything at all.........

Alligator is a great tune about Pig swimming in the Russina River but the tune went nowhere and was rarely played anywho.

the Herbie Mann connection has real story legs and application IMHO.......the fact that they turned it into a blue/jazz-jam masterpiece is the deal.

the ABB did this "renovation" many times we know the names they are all on The Fillmore album..........but this one went into a serious "piece" as Butch would call it.

it is theirs and they can claim it or not claim it anyway they want to.


golfnutt67 - 3/19/2014 at 06:27 PM

quote:
I think it was inspired by jazz and the idea of taking a melody and expanding on it...much in the way John Coltrane took My Favorite Things and made it what it is today in the jamband and jazz scene. It was a way to feature each band member and to take music to it's limit and creative peak. Plus the dead did a tease on one of their early live LP's and I'm sure Duane heard that plus Paul Butterfield Blues band's East West was probably an influence


Not to derail this tread but goldtop is onto something here......

I am a firm believer that Michal Bloomfield East-West had huge reaching significance in the whole SF music scene and beyond. E/W was the per-curer to what we know of as jam band and psychedelic jamming.....He was a musical genius way before his time IMHO and not sure enough credit has gone his way.

[Edited on 3/19/2014 by golfnutt67]


Marley - 3/19/2014 at 07:37 PM

Here's the Herbie Mann "There Is a Mountain." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmpYaTOoc-o


Marley - 3/19/2014 at 08:04 PM

I did ask Alan Paul on Twitter. He said he presumed the ABB got the idea from Herbie Mann, but that nobody he interviewed had an answer on how Mountain Jam came to be.


Shavian - 3/19/2014 at 08:18 PM

Here's Herbie's soporific version of IMOER:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR9FZxiA-x0


chiliD - 3/19/2014 at 08:40 PM

The GD just hinted at the theme of "There Is A Mountain", the ABB pretty much played through Donovan's entire song structure before launching into their "jam" portion and building on the various sections. I think that's where the crux lies.


Another informative post from Captain Obvious!

[Edited on 3/19/2014 by chiliD]


wbcarley - 3/20/2014 at 01:22 AM

quote:
I did ask Alan Paul on Twitter. He said he presumed the ABB got the idea from Herbie Mann, but that nobody he interviewed had an answer on how Mountain Jam came to be.


If my theory is correct (i.e. that Duane picked it up when he was playing sessions with the same produced/engineer that recorded Herbie Mann's version), then that makes sense... Because only he would know, and he is sadly unavailable.

quote:
I think it was inspired by jazz and the idea of taking a melody and expanding on it...much in the way John Coltrane took My Favorite Things and made it what it is today in the jamband and jazz scene.


...Not to derail this tread but goldtop is onto something here......




Yep, my Herbie Mann theory fits that... Duane was just starting to get into jazz, so listening to Herbie Mann would be pretty likely... especially since Herbie later sat in on the ABB Central Park concert and Duane later played on Herbie's "Push Push" album.


Marley - 3/20/2014 at 01:47 AM

The ABB was doing Mountain Jam by early May of '69. I think that's too soon for a producer to be involved. "Windows Open" was done by Joel Dorn and Adrian Barber, who did the ABB's first album, but it was recorded in September '69.


masbama - 3/20/2014 at 01:07 PM

quote:
My father likes jazz, I never really took to it. One Sunday, he and my mother were over for dinner and I had some ABB in the CD player on background. Halfway through Mountain Jam, he asks me who it was and says, "This is great". My father and I have absolutely no musical crossover and for him to say that at that point in my life was a validation I didn't realize would mean so much to me until he said it.


Interesting. My father is an Opera/Classical music guy; never cared for R&R. I was always playing the ABB and it was the only music I listened to that he liked. He really liked Jessica and the ending of it on WTW. It had a strong classical influence.


wbcarley - 3/26/2014 at 06:09 PM

quote:
The ABB was doing Mountain Jam by early May of '69. I think that's too soon for a producer to be involved. "Windows Open" was done by Joel Dorn and Adrian Barber, who did the ABB's first album, but it was recorded in September '69.


"Windows Opened" is a red herring... Herbie Mann recorded "There is a Mountain" on September 21, 1967 for "String Album." WAY before May of '69. Tom Dowd was the engineer.

So the link is not Joel Dorn and Adrian Barber, it is Tom Dowd.

Duane played on sessions that were engineered and/or produced by Tom Dowd at least 6 times between the date Dowd recorded "There is a Mountain" with Herbie Mann (September, '67) and May '69. That included multiple sessions each with Wilson Pickett, King Curtis, and Arethea Franklin, some of which were in the same NYC studio (the Atlantic studio) where Dowd recorded Mann's "Mountain". (FYI, this information comes from http://www.jazzdisco.org/atlantic-records/discography-1968/)

When Marley says May '69 is too soon for a produced to have been involved in "Mountain Jam" that may be right, at least from a recording perspective, i.e. I doubt Dowd attempted to record "Mountain" with the ABB.

But I do think that it is pretty likely, or at least possible, that the man who recorded Mann's "Mountain" would have shared it with Duane at some point... They were in the studio together a LOT in-between the time Mann recorded "Mountain" and the time the ABB started doing MJ. And that was during the period when Duane was getting more into jazz.

I can't find ANY link between Donovan and the ABB, other than the chance that the ABB might have head "mountain" on the radio. It seems much more likely to me that a musician who is getting into jazz would pick up a song from a producer/engineer that he has a close relationship with, especially since that producer/engineer recorded the song in question.

Also worth noting that 2 years after the fact (summer of 1971) Herbie Mann sat in with the ABB in Central Park and played with them on Mountain Jam. Now maybe the book "Skydog" is correct, and Mann just happened to be in his apartment and just happened to enjoy the music he was hearing, and decided to walk on down and join the band... That's a nice story, but it seems more likely that Dowd may have introduced Herbie and Duane sometime before that... Its nice to think he just wandered over, but (close your ears kids) usually these things are arranged in advance.

Anyway, we will never know for sure... Duane is sadly dead, so is Herbie, so is Dowd.

For what it's worth, Jaimoe (at a book signing for "One Way Out") was asked and said that he though Twiggs suggested it.


ladymule - 7/31/2018 at 06:27 PM

^ Bump for DOVETAIL


dadof2 - 8/1/2018 at 02:34 PM

A great thread.
I’m listening to the 68 Dead show-a tremendous show
Listening closely there’s no doubt that Alligator jam veers to the Mountain and to the jam.The jam is different but the foundation is there.

Way way cool.

[Edited on 8/1/2018 by dadof2]


tommars - 8/1/2018 at 03:03 PM

i never this acknowledged but this came out in 68. Since the bros loved jazz, one could assume they heard this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17aS5RkcjV0


DavedK - 8/4/2018 at 02:04 PM

What I do know first hand is that Gregory once told me that the song was brought to ABB by Duane.
As Gregg told me, when Duane one day suggested doing the song to the group and met with protests over doing a Donovan cover, he responded with “No, not the whole song. I think just the hook riff and melody would make a great launching point for an instrumental jam.”
ABB gave it a try and liked the results.
It always cracked me up that the younger whipper snappers in the crew had no idea that the song was based on a 60’s cover or even who Donovan is. LOL
Warren’s tech, Brian Farmer, was one of those and he always laughed at the lyrics.
He and I started doing little hand-jive routines on the side of the stage of mountains that appear and disappear, and of butterflies and caterpillars crawling on garden gates, whenever the song was played.
Brian loved it and always broke out in laughter whenever it got played.
He would often have me recite the lyrics to new crew folk who had no idea what the song was about.


[Edited on 8/4/2018 by DavedK]


The_Newt - 8/8/2018 at 02:45 PM

quote:
What I do know first hand is that Gregory once told me that the song was brought to ABB by Duane.
As Gregg told me, when Duane one day suggested doing the song to the group and met with protests over doing a Donovan cover, he responded with “No, not the whole song. I think just the hook riff and melody would make a great launching point for an instrumental jam.”
ABB gave it a try and liked the results.
It always cracked me up that the younger whipper snappers in the crew had no idea that the song was based on a 60’s cover or even who Donovan is. LOL
Warren’s tech, Brian Farmer, was one of those and he always laughed at the lyrics.
He and I started doing little hand-jive routines on the side of the stage of mountains that appear and disappear, and of butterflies and caterpillars crawling on garden gates, whenever the song was played.
Brian loved it and always broke out in laughter whenever it got played.
He would often have me recite the lyrics to new crew folk who had no idea what the song was about.


[Edited on 8/4/2018 by DavedK]


Haha that's funny. Thanks for sharing that information. I do know that despite the claims of how the Allmans got the idea from Mountain Jam from the dead, according to people who were close to the band from the early days, this did not happen.


Randall - 8/9/2018 at 12:57 AM

quote:
i never this acknowledged but this came out in 68. Since the bros loved jazz, one could assume they heard this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17aS5RkcjV0



Wow!! This is interesting! Recorded in 1967 and released in 1968.


My guess is that Duane heard this and used it as a blueprint for the jam.


Stephen - 8/9/2018 at 01:29 AM

The guitar playing is really good! -- Ivan Jones could really play
All 3 of these versions came out in 1968 -- this one, Herbie Mann's version, and Donovan's
agreed that this is way way cool


This thread come from : Hittin' The Web with the Allman Brothers Band
http://allmanbrothersband.com/

Url of this website:
http://allmanbrothersband.com//modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&file=viewthread&fid=126&tid=116031